A discussion on 7 heroes

We have already had 7/8 Henchmen parties..
This is not what we are asking for.
We have 25 Heros and can only use 3 of them...
Thats what we are complaining about.

Im sorry i missed a coma. You seem to be fixated on that error.

PvE skill does not matter? Then why are people on this thread complaining about crappy Puggers who have no skill in PvE as one of the reasons for wanting 7 heroes to begin with?

You are placing newbies in a very difficult position.

Theres no pugs. All they have are heroes, heroes which rely on their own skill pool and available weapons. Theres no one to learn from. Theres no improvement. Its all going to be frustration and grief for new players.

Adding 7 heroes is a very slippery slope. I have thought about this issue from more than 1 perspective. I've actually switched sides repeatedly. Its a very very thorny issue and a very dangerous one.

I see the pros and i see the cons. Do not misjudge me as hating on this idea for no reason. I'm quite adamant because i've studied the issue from both sides and i dont see the case strong enough for this change.

The concept that players should be allowed access to all content and play how they want is a mute argument simply because not all players can play the same way or do they have the same skill level.

Giving someone the option to do something while at the same time depriving that player of what makes the game intrinsically unique is a bad idea.

fixed your spelling error. please, do not flame on spelling if you cannot do it yourself.

no, I am not talking about 7 heros for general gameplay. I am talking about 7 heros for hardmode and elite areas (such as DoA). So please, once again, do your research.

Like you, I have seen both sides of the arguement. I have yet to see an answer which supports that there not be a change. The irony.

Yes, players do have places if they want to learn. Presear is one huge playground for people to learn. In Factions, there is an area where you can actually fight other NPCs to see if your skills work. In nightfall, there is also a training area. Hell, everyone even has access to the training area in the pvp section. So your validity about people not learning is their own fault. Not mine.

Actually,
Being against 7/8 hero parties is the most greedy and self centered thing ive ever heard.
Your reasons for not allowing 7/8 Hero parties, does not hold water.

I didnt flame you on spelling. Maybe youre confusing me with someone else.

Yes, we are talking HM and Elite Areas like DOA, Deep, Urgoz.

But what point is it to add it to just those areas? Why not the whole game?

My answer to that remains the same. Having 7 heroes wont fix the fact that some of these areas REQUIRE people.

You want to do DoA? More Heroes wont neccesarily make you succeed in DoA.

Youll probably get more pissed that even with more heroes, its a slogfest.

Maybe you didn't look hard enough?

Guild Wars has content for many player types.

for example
Casual
Solo
PvP
Hardcore

A player has the option to play all of these types. However one player type does not have access to the whole game.

In order to have access to everything Guild Wars has to offer, you have to be a little bit of each player type.

By allowing heroes, the game offers soloists a different experience. Their gameplay style however...cannot be applicable to ALL sections of the game (The Deep for example). To give ALL sections of the game complete access to one player type, without giving access to the others, is very unfair, and part of that slippery slope.

Keep the claws in people. Being civil cost you nothing.

I would like the option of 7 heroes. Not quite sure why that is not permitted. If its UI clutter, I see that as a non-problem since I don't have to display the hero bars, or all of them, at all times. If the perceived problem is that the 7 hero option would make grouping with live players less likely, I don't see how there could be much less PUG'ing than there is now. Having any heroes pretty well destroyed PUGs, and the few PUGs that are available these days are almost always bad. I'd prefer to take 7 heroes on those harder missions, though the hero/hench mix is fine for most of the game.

I see what you did there.

There are two kinds of players along the relevant axis of discussion:

Solo
Group

Casual/Hardcore is a different axis and not pertinent to this discussion, and PvP has absolutely no bearing on this conversation at all.

I agree. Group players have complete access to ALL sections of the game, solo players do not. This IS very unfair.

.

what about them? then they have the option to buy NF or Gwen just like the rest of us that did and deserves the option to be able to use all our heroes.

QFT. Solo players do not have the option to get into the hardcore areas. Just to say, I am a hardcore player. I play whenever I get a chance. It is the inability of me sitting at the computer for more than 30 minutes at a time that is not allowing me to pug OR do the elite areas. I have 13 maxed titles (and no, they are not sweet tooth or drunkard and yes, they were ALL done with h/h), so I think that says something in itself. Just add the 7 heros. The community for me has nothing to offer, and I should not be forced to play with immature people, or people who want cookie-cutter builds.

No they are pertinent in the fact that these are player styles that people choose.

The grind factor in GW:EotN can be considered as completely optional and players have the option of choosing to play it or not. This fulfills the hardcore player type's content.

The casual player cant be expected to have access to the hardcore player's content.


Maybe its not unfair, rather the design of parts of the game? Even if you added more heroes, it WOULDNT FIX THAT.

Star Gazer wants HM and Elite areas. Some of these areas are obviously NOT for solo-ers.

What is for solo-ists that group players do not have? Farming is one thing i can think of. The game heavily rewards soloing vs grouping in terms of loot.

We've had this from the VERY beginning. UW and FOW....no henchmen allowed.

I agreed with this, and let us skill them the way we want. That works for me.

as for 7 heroes cluttering up the GUI.. make it so that we are allow to have only a few open and we get to chose which, we dont see the henchies so...

Next request would then be "we have 25 heroes and can only use 7 of them"

For the sake of this argument I say 'screw PuG'.
People showed they don't care for PuGs anymore and want to change the game into a solo game (my WoW playing colleague laughed very hard when I told him people are demanding 7 heroes).

Seeing a lot of people seem to want what is close to hench with adjustable skillbars, let's focus on that. They don't want the advanced interface, just heroes they can adjust.

There must be a valid reason to do so.
Saying "I have 25, can use 3" is not enough.
There must be some things that cannot be done with the current 3 heroes/4 hench. It also must not involve a change in game design besides adding more heroes.
We talked about the elite areas before.
That's a no-go. Those areas are designed with human teams in mind.
Deep and Urgoz's have features that would be very difficult or even impossible to achieve with heroes.
Guildies say DoA would probably be possible with full hero team.
However, since the area was intended for play with other humans (hence the lack of henchies) and changing that would mean changing the core area design it's a no-go.

Now there are several other spots that are very hard with the current H&H setup.
However, those spots are limited.
And more important, at least one of those spots (Eternal Grove HM) is located on a continent without heroes.
Meaning people with Factions (+Proph) only are screwed when the problem is solved by adding more heroes.

Up to now, the most valid argument I have seen is the 'AFK a lot/I have a life' argument.
However again it is used a lot in combination with the 'human areas' mentioned above. And those were no-go.
Again, one has to ask if this is a problem that can only be solved with more heroes (and only be in NF or EotN, since Proph and Factions don't have inherited heroes).
Again, with a few exceptions, the answer would be negative.

So far I have still to hear an argument explaining why the current game is broken and this broken game can only be fixed by adding more heroes.
Not adjusting areas that don't support full H&H teams.

The community demanding the heroes has so far only been stating that they want heroes, but given no more than 'nice to have' reasons together with 'it will not harm anyone'.
While both are valid reasons, you are asking A-net to dedicate resources to something that is not a problem.
The only problems that are there concern specific areas/missions (again, not the elite ones) and asking for a solution for those problems is fair.
For example, Eternal Grove with hench only in Hard Mode would probably be almost unbeatable, so asking for a change of the hench there (or the mission mechanics) would be fair. The same for every other area/mission that is impossible to complete with hench only (as far as Proph and Factions are concerned).

When A-net solves all problems in the game (take a peek in the bug sections on the various forums) they are free to implement changes like full hero parties.
But till then fixing something that is not even broken is just not right

for the most part the only people demanding this are the hardcore pro farmers who want to farm the elite optional areas.

or who want to run the normal high end farming areas faster with fewer party members.

there have been several posts months ago stating that if they had 4 or 5 heroes they could dump all 4 henchmen giving them a party of 4-5 which would help dramatically in excluded high end items.

since this has already been decided at the top over a year ago and constantly reconsidered/discussed by the top people and turned down i think it is safe to say that they will not change a core game policy at this late date.

it has been discussed not once but many times and each time the answer has been a flat NO.

this is not a maybe
this is not a were working on it
this is not a its under consideration

this is here is the answer from the people who make the decisions

Cut the crap, boy. Grinding/farming makes me sick and I'm not doing that. Just because I don't enjoy PUGs means I'm 'pro farmer'? Wow, your tumor is growing nicely.
If you don't have anything to back-up your pathetic 'u want 7 heroes so u can farm moar lulz' then I'd suggest to leave.
On the other hand, if you have something to back you up then please, enlighten me. I'm waiting.

Breaking news- decisions can change.
Moar after this!

Wow, irrationality didn't work so now we're down to flat out lying and insults. Trying to get the thread closed so there won't be an opposition voice, presumably?

I just don't understand the problems with having 7 heroes, this is PvE for Christ sake, what does it matter to anyone else.

We have PvE only skills, consumables, ghostly helpers, Title skills that increase with grind leveling....etc...etc.

Bottom line is, I don't want to PuG, all you Puggers....PuG Off.

7 heros has absolutely nothing at all to do with farming.

In fact the complete oppisite is true, you get better drops with just 1-2heros.

7 heros is just an option we would like to make the game a little more fun. Just because you do not find playing with heros fun, don't tell us we can't enjoy it because we do.

If the extra heros would effect how you play the game, then tell us how?
If the extra heros would change how people play the game, then give us some proof?

I have yet to see anyone put up a real argument on how 7 heros would harm the game in a way that 3heros/4hench does not already effect it.

I would like to use 7 heros. It is often useless to take henches in hard mode.
they end up with -60dp all too soon when the rest of the heros ar fine. I don't always go it alone but usually go with one other person and heros. I got all thers heros why not let me use them.

I would like the ability to use all the skills ive unlocked with my PvE character.
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I would like to create a new character and instantly have all the zones my other characters have explored.
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I would like free gold, armor and weapons.
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I would like permanent IAS, +armor, + energy regen, + health regen, + permanent insta-res (like those Nymphs in Charrland...wtf is up with them?).
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I would like more than 1 elite in my skillbar.
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I can keep going with absurd ideas....

Adding more heroes doesn't just affect those who use that option. It affects the game. This isnt a simple increase of heroes.

Its a GUI change. EVERYONE uses the same gui.
Its a GAMEPLAY change. Like ive mentioned, it changes the gameplay radically from an MMO and towards more of a RTS. I think this is the most negative effect of this.
It doesnt address the issues that people have brought up as to why they want it in the first place.

And YES, how YOU play the game affects those around you because you are not playing with others.

The difference with your ideas lyra is the unbalance they cause between people who use them and people who dont.

7 heroes + 1 player isnt more powerful than 8 players.
Having 2 elites is more powerful than having one.

See the difference?

You dont see having 7 heroes as imbalanced?

I can justify all those ideas as not imbalanced simply by saying that it doesnt affect you at all if you choose not to use it.

Good lord, havent we already established it isnt overpowered? A team of 8 good players is better than 7 heroes and a player.

Heroes dont pre kite
Heroes stand in AoE
Heroes dont stay in wards
Heroes cant combo skills
Heroes waste ints on unimportant spells
Heroes will cast spells like MS with 1 enemy left
Heroes will walk straight through traps
Heroes cant automatically maintain enchantments
Heroes will happily aggro other groups mid fight


Still think 7 heroes are imbalanced?
Good players will always make better teams than 7 heroes.

PUG < 1 good player and H/H < 1 good player and 7 heroes < 2 good players and 6 heroes < 8 good players

So no, I really don't. I don't really understand why you do.

This argument is without merit. The principle you are using is, "people should be forced to do something they don't want to do, in order to allow others to do what they want to do." If this were a valid line of reasoning, rape wouldn't be a crime.

Assume there are eight people in a mission town, and the mission is designed for eight people. Seven of those eight people want to play alone, and one of those people wants to play with other people. Should those seven people be forced to play with the one?

Arguably valid arguments exist for not allowing seven heroes (e.g., it's imba). However, this is not one of them.

Bravo! Bravo! An excellent post IMO! Sums up pretty much why having 7 heroes is no way overpowered than 8 players. Once again, bravo!

Quoting again for effect.

lyra just wants everyone to be in this happy-go-lucky state of mind where everyone gets along with everyone. I am sorry, but until you limit this game to noone under 21, that will NOT happen. and no, I dont just want it for the 'elite' areas of the game. That was an EXAMPLE. I want it so that I can actually vanquish a zone without rage-quitting after -60dps for 1 hour straight. you think a pug would last to -30? if you say yes, your lying to yourself and you should delete your username on this forum and disconnect your internet.

not enough people do HM. period. not enough people do elite areas. period. people do not care about what others want, inside or outside of the game. why you seem so adament on hindering our play style is just beyond me. you are one of THE most arrogant people I have ever met, and you are just arguing for arguments sake.

7 heros make nothing "imba". You dont get better drops. You dont get any inherrited bonus. What you do get is a team that you can put together, and not have someone calling your build a dumb one. You do get to go afk when you need to be. This reporting feature that they have installed (while I agree, FA has turned into nothing but leechers), they have ruined any chance (if there was one) of me doing PvP or teaming with pugs in pve. I have YET (as I stated at the beginning of this thread) to see a valid reason why this should not be implemented. you attack personal playstyles and have no reason to support yours.

btw, that crap that you posted about all the bonuses you would like, that made me lol. that isnt even part of the issue.

Thanks for misunderstanding and twisting my words into a perverted metaphor....People should not be forced to do anything...gee...where did i say that?

But people who contribute nothing affect others around them negatively by contributing nothing.

They may as well just unplug from the internet and play a 1 player version of GW. Which is exactly what the suggestion is asking.

This isn't as simple as, you just wanting a little thing so you can play by yourself for your own convenience. While it seems like a humble little request, this is a change to the game environment and the player dynamics by removing the need to be with other players. Sure the option is there for players to team up, but in such an environment, what player would?

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything except think about what you're asking for outside of your own gains.

--------------------

As for heroes being imbalanced.

Yes they cant do any of that....yet....people want them.

Why is that? Surely there must be an advantage? If it wasnt imbalanced to begin with, why would you want it?

The advantage to a 7 hero system is more than obvious. Total control. Its like multi-boxing (as ive mentioned). Yes its VERY cool.

But i dont really think that its Guild Wars anymore....

Its supposed to be funny. People have made similar things to those very suggestions using the same exact mindset.

Star Gazer, youre right, not enough people do HM. Maybe we should be focused on THAT problem.

OT: Yes i argue for fun. This is fun for me, so lets keep talking.

You're just rephrasing your statement, the original principle hasn't changed. Again, someone who refuses to have sex affects others around them negatively by contributing nothing to people not being able to have sex. Although there is a difference in scale, the situations are analogous; this is not a twist in any way, but rather a valid reductio ad absurdum.

What they "may as well" do is irrelevant to the current discussion, because it says nothing about why they shouldn't play single-player. This is especially true since many people already play single-player with heroes and henchmen - the implementation of seven-hero parties would only be for their convenience, at the detriment of essentially no one else.

You've brought to light the fundamental issue here, albeit indirectly. Specifically, "in such an environment, what player would [team up]?" This statement implies (correctly, I think) that people prefer heroes to PuGs. Given that heroes are, in fact, quite poor to begin with at all but the most mundane styles of play, this suggests that the problem lies with PuGs. As I stated above, the game has already reached the point where many would rather play hero/hench than PuG. In other words, the cause is already lost.

You fail to see this because you are mixing cause and effect. Heroes were implemented so that people who didn't want to PuG would have another option. Heroes didn't kill PuGs, they were introduced in response to PuGs already being dead. The people who want seven heroes wouldn't PuG even if heroes were removed. A fair number of us have been henching or guild-teaming things since Prophecies.

Ideally, you should never need other players, because that, by definition, restricts your freedom of play. A perfect system would allow all options of play to coexist. Unfortunately, that seems beyond the reach of practical implementation. However, I am at least glad that Anet has thus far has recognized the idea of freedom of play; now, they need only take that idea to its logical conclusion.

Finally, I similarly ask you consider what you are asking for. Someone who wants to play with other people necessarily requires people to play with them. What if nobody wants to play with them? The wants of these players would place a disproportionate and unreasonable burden on others who just want to be left to their own peace.

Very good burst. I'll need to think about this a bit. ill get bakc to you.

What is the advantage lyra? Thats a good question. One that we should have summed up early on in the discussion.

Thankfully we did. Feel free to check back but if not ill give a quick recap here.


Now while im not going to dig through and quote it all I will again list the main points (There are more but these are the main reasons to me).



No waiting time to form a team.

For a casual player who only has maybe 30-45 mins to play spending 10 on getting a team is a huge chunk of playtime gone. With 7 heroes people can spend more time playing the game and less time waiting to play.



You can go afk when you need to.

With players you cant expect people to wait for you while you go afk multiple times during the same mission. With 7 heroes they will be there when you get back.



Those are the 2 main points for me.

Now the obvious question from there would be why do you need 7 heroes when you have h/h?

Why? Because h/h is, to put it simply, not great.
Its extremely underpowered when compared to a team of 8 players. Outside of GW:EN the henchies have shocking builds, they dont even have 8 skills! Even in GW:EN most builds are fairly poor.
This means someone that is unable to pug is playing with a huge disadvantage.

Adding 7 heroes means people playing with heroes will be on a much closer playingfield to that of a team of 8 players. While it will never be as good, its a feature that is already partially ingame and would allow the casual player to play without being punished with weaker teams because they cant pug.



Now another big point although less than the previous two in my opinion.

Allowing casual players access to more of the game.

Im going to take HM as my example here, but it applies to the elite areas as well (Although some due to their nature cant be completed with 1 player, still a lot more of the game is opened up).

HM with the awful hench builds really isnt worth thinking about. So that leaves you with getting a team of players. Instantly a problem for the first 2 reasons. Lets assume however you have time and you know you wont get interrupted.

So to get a team for HM. Well in most areas there arent even enough people to get a team, let alone enough people doing HM to get a team, let alone enough people doing HM who happen to include the required proffesions.

So that doesnt work, lets try our guild/alliance. Ah your a casual player so you arent in a hardcore HM guild, sure you could leave and join one...but is being forced to join specific guilds just to play half the game really the way to do things?

Ok so lets try arranging a team on a forum. Well your a casual player so you cant arrange to be on at a set time, as a casual player you might not even know any GW forums! Also should players have to arrange to play the game? Why cant they just play it?


Ok now lets imagine we have 7 heroes. You log on, add your heroes, play.
If you need to log off or go afk your not ruining the game for anyone else, you can come back and play when it suits you.



Surely you can see how much that would help people out?


(As you can see my whole reasoning behind this is how it helps the casual player out, others have different opinions on why they think 7 heroes would be good for the game but im not going into them because...well they arent my opinions . But it does go to show it doesnt just help 1 group of players, it helps a lot)

I have a simple solution - allow 7 heroes, but only allow the micro-management and individual flags of the first three. So essentially, we are allowed to choose 4 heroes that act as henchmen, except customized (builds/equipment). This solves any "god control" and "GUI clutter" problems, and makes them slightly less powerful than straight heroes since we wouldn't be able to control their every move.

Fair deal?

This has been suggested soooo many times.... Why dont you read the other....

Oh wait, isnt that what you always say? XD

It has? I do?



You're making this up, aren't you?

XD, nvm, at least your on the right side of the disscussion.

Yay for 7 heroes, if it ever happens.

7 Heroes will give more advantage to:

1. players spending a lot of time capping and buying skills
2. players buying PvP editions from the online shop

Where does that leave the casual players?
And what about the players that only got Prophecies or Factions?

I think that you can afford to buy every skill from the skill trainer, capping all elite skills, being able to afford elite armor on several characters and even getting some gold weapons which some people only can dream about should be enough.
If that still isn't reward enough for all your time played, you should play a game like WoW instead, and get into Tier 7.

If they put in 7 heros i wouldnt really care.

But i would have to say no. I am gonna take a big swallow and say that I agree with Gaile Grey.

Ok im sorry but I dont quite understand what you mean with your comments on affording armour and weapons. But ill reply to your other points.


People who have more skill unlocked obviousely have an advantage. They have more skills. Its as simple as that. Doesnt matter how many heroes they have, if they have more skill unlocked they have an advantage.
But anyone, even a casual player, can unlock 56 skills and 8 elites fairly easily. So its not a problem that they have more skills, its very easy to unlock the important ones for the builds you want to run.

As for people who dont own a game containing heroes. Well they dont own it do they? If they want heroes they can purchase the game like everyone else.


*Edit*

Gatto can you explain why you agree with Gaile?

I forgot the PvP grind for the skills unlocking part.
Still its not the casuals players asking for it.
Neither those who don't want it the fast and easy way.
And if something is to hard with 4 henchmen in the party, where is the problem in getting a friend or someone in guild/alliance to assist with his/her 3 heroes?

Maybe I'm to used in arranging 40 man raids, but I can't see the deal with not allowing 1 additional player to tag along.
Sorry, but to me it looks way more like fast and easy mode for the win.

*Edit* Give us more so we can farm even faster.

Mineria you obviousely missed the reasons I posted for wanting heroes. Dont worry your not the first, people seem to dislike actually reading threads before posting

Basically this will help people who can only play for limited periods of time and/or have to go afk frequently.

Now if you can only play for 30-45 mins and you have to spend 10 mins forming a team you can see why it really cuts down on actual playtime.

And if you have to go afk a lot is it fair to make other people wait each time?

The problem with getting another player with 3 heroes is your still including a player. If you have to go afk for 30 mins what are they meant to do? With a team of heroes they will happily wait as long as it takes.