A discussion on 7 heroes

Anet has had a good track record in the past of actually listening to the community, and several things that they had previously been rather firm about not wanting to change (Razah, Favor, Character Slots For Sale, HA back to 8v8, etc) in the past have been changed upon request from the community, so the precedence is there for them to listen in this case too.

You know the worst part? We're going to be having this same damn argument with regards to GW2 several years from now. Not exactly the same, of course, since they're supposedly not going to have heroes/henchmen in GW2, but the game is supposedly going to be balanced to allow soloing. You just know, though, that there are going to be a bunch of areas of the game, like with GW1 where a single player can't realistically make any headway. Anet seems to have this compulsive agenda to force strangers to play together, whether they want to or not. I don't understand it, but it's a significant problem with this game and liable to be a downright crippling problem in the next one. I hope they get over it. I sincerely hope they get over it.

Well you see Anet never takes into account that if someone doesn't want to pug he won't. They also don't take into account not everyone is on the same page. For example one of my friends was doing NF a few weeks back and got a pug in the RoT to do a mission or quest... anyways none of them but my friend had LB titles or skills.

It becomes pretty ridiculous when conisistantly more than 75% of the player base wants something that doesn't change the game all that much, but anet turns a blind eye... its frustrating to say the least.

wow......just wow. many concerned opinions about game play, and she responds to a freakin mini pet post? good god, where are their priorities??!?!

She will get back around to us... its just important to let her know how adament some of us are about it... and the ones who oppose can simply not use the added heros when it happens. Very simple.

Yeah there is no need for Anet bashing, they have been very good with helping the casual player before as well as listening to the community.

Hopefully someone will make a post here soon.

Priorities:

1) Minipets. If you talk shit about minipets saying that they're rubbish an worthless you will be told by ANet that they are awesome and are very meaningful.

2) Critisism. If you say anything remotly bad about the game you will be told that there is nothing wrong with it and that the game is working as intended (ala Blizzard) by ANet.

3) Opinions. If you say "blah blah Gwen sucks" you will be ignored whereas if you say "blah blah i luvz gewn lol" you will be praised by ANet with a "thanks, dear" or "yeah you're right, Gwen is awesome".

I just thought of these off the top of my head. I'm bored of this reputation grind just for a pair of glasses.

Minipets suck, Gwen bites, etc.

as Jeff Strain stated most of the player base will never visit a fansite.

as onother poster here stated after actually checking figures only 0.03 percent of GWO voted for this overpowered farmers crock

so it is not more than 75% of the player base

it is not even 75% of the GWO members

not even 7.5% of the GWO members

not even 0.75% of the GWO members

as for not changing the game that much why are you so frantic to get something that doesnt change that much..........unless it really does make a big change

In HM, you get level 20 henchies.
Same in EotN.
While you might need to tweak your team build to work around the disadvantages of the AI, the hench in HM, combined with heroes, are good enough for the job except in a very few places.

Which brings us to the next point:

I read your comments on the disadvantages of AI and you are right.
However, stating they are a fairly 'meh' team at best is also not true.
When building the right combination of H&H you can do a lot of things better then 'meh'.
However, you need to set your team and heroes in a way that the heroes provide extra benefit for the hench or take advantage of their skills.
The only thing that would work better is an organized pug and those are rare except in specific areas.

Let's talk DoA for a moment.
The most used team is probably still a variant of the balanced DoA build invented by Kaiz.
That's a build very difficult to play with heroes only.
So you probably need an other build.

Now to Deep.
Preferred build there was Steel Wall.
That might be playable with heroes indeed, however, would be hard.
For example, put 3 heroes on specific points to open a gate and get them through?
Don't have a lot of experience with Urgoz's, so can't judge that area.
You need to be /N yourself for the NT there, I think.
It seems to me those areas were build with human only players in mind.

FoW and perhaps UW should be possible with full hero team.
And most probably with H&H team (dunno if it's possible to take them with you when you start from NF or Factions).

In the end the content that you cannot access with H&H seems to be content that A-net made with human teams in mind.
Introducing heroes would not be the only thing they have to change there to make those areas playable with heroes.

Don't start about other obligations you might have as reason for 7 heroes.
To be harsh, that's your problem and you have to find a way to live with it and work around it. If that's not possible, tough luck.
My ex had panic attacks, meaning I could get a phonecall to pick her up several evenings a week. Meaning I could not play anything I could not finish within 15 minutes time.
Same for my work, I had to tell them that I could get a phonecall and had to leave almost at once, even in meetings.
The panic attacks lasted for several years, with periods between them that I could get some relief.

Now if you are in such a situation I feel very sorry for you, it's crap.
If it's not such a situation, you should be able to talk things over and arrange something that would enable you to play for a longer period of time.
Negotiation is part of a relationship.
I do understand that people see this different, but in the end it's a matter of priority.
Wife/kids > GW? Fully understand that, but don't complain that you don't have the time to do things with human players in GW because of that.
That's your trade-off, just like I put my (then) fiancee over my job, GW and a lot of social activities.

archaic: oh, so you as a dev/beta/alpha tester disagree with user input? that speaks alot for your company, fine sir. If they are that closed minded about this, what else will they be closed minded against? oh wait! that was ever since prophecies. thank you for making my decision archaic. i will not be getting gw2 and giving my hard earned money to a dipshit company that thinks their own objectives are more than the players.

the jos: no, i do NOT think it is fair that I, as a causl player (which this game was ADVERTISED FOR) am unable to do the elite areas by myself. ANEt stated this game will be able to be played "15-20 minutes before dinner"...ok, so if its longer than that, tough luck? its a crock of shit if you ask me.

Don't dare do it without giving heroes PvP equipment accessibility...

@jos (sorry im not going to quote each bit and go into detail, ive done far to much posting already today so im going to keep it short(...er)

If Anet wants to say right people who cant play for X mins at a time shouldnt have access to this content. They will loose a lot of people.
Its tough luck if they loose a big portion of the playerbase right?

The fact that we have h/h already shows how they are willing to appeal to the casual player where a lot of MMORPGs dont. Im fairly sure they will know just how much the casual player nets them. Im also fairly sure its an ammount worth changing something like this ingame to show that they support the casual gamer. If they do they will deffinately have a lot of those casual players go over to GW2. Because they know they can trust Anet to ensure the game is open to everyone, not just the hardcore player.



@Lovitar
What you need to think is that most casual players wont visit a fansite. So a lot of people on a fansite will be more hardcore player. The fact that 75% of the people voted yes shows that its not just the casual player who would like it.

Also how is it overpowered?
And what does it have to do with farming? You go with heroes they get drops just like players would. So the player gets the same drops. Plus most casual players would never have the time to farm and play the game.

And it is a big change. This would allow so many people access to areas they have never been able to reach, would allow people to play the game how they want, in a way it was advertsides they could. Without being punished for that choice.



@Archaic

I replied to you in the other thread. So im just going to quote it in here as well for those not checking the other thread.

I suppose that the biggest issue is this:

7 heros would allow for players to accomplish goals that cannot currently be attained without having a friend playing at that current time as well. It would in no way hinder those who choose not to take the additional heros. Furthermore 7 heros would arguably be more difficult to run than say 2 players with 3 heros each if that player were to micromanage the skills on each bar. So its not as though its rewarding a lower level of gameplay by any means.

No. Anet can listen to the single player community of the game or they can ignore us, but we're not going to stop asking for equal treatment with the multiplayer community. Period. We paid for the game, we deserve access to the elite missions, and we deserve a fair chance at completing hard mode content. We were promised soloability in this game from day one. This is not supposed to be an exclusively multiplayer game, if it were many of us would never have bought it.

Ok. For the second time. I will say this. ANet has refused your request. Stop asking. Your just repeating a resolved issue. They've said they won't do it. And that's that.

This also has nothing to do with PvE/vs/PvP so don't use that as a buffer.

I can also say that ANet is probably no longer reading any threads with the words "7 heroes". They've answered you. Now stop.

EDIT: Conflict of information.

I am actually a bit surprised that there is relatively little flaming going on here... good discussion. For further discussion please see this thread as well:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10202643

lol @ with authority. Anet has a long track record of listening to its users... more than 75% of its player base want this (see the GWO thread) so why ignore it?

Heroes ruined the game. I hated heroes in alpha testing, I hate them now.

I miswrote that. Anyways, ANet has told you they can't and won't do it. On grounds of PvE balance. So stop making pointless repeat threads, and find something better to do on the forums.

Archaic this has nothing to do with balance. A group of 7 heroes and 1 player is weaker than a team of 8 players.

I thought people ruined the game.
Yeah, I also hated people in alpha testing, I hate them now.

Thats just the point that you're missing.... they say that they WONT do it... the reasons they give for cant are bogus. And why wont they?... the good lord only knows. please read my previous rebuttal to your statement for further information.

They are not doing this. I implore a moderator to come out from where-ever they hide and close this topic. Further discussion by people who obviously didn't get the idea when ANet said ''no'', don't really need to keep spamming and talking, when ANet has said NO.


It is all about balance, btw, because 7 heroes is wayyyyy stronger than 8 people. I'm sorry, but lrn2play.

Well, you forget one thing there.

When playing with a guild group you need to organize things and that takes time.
A couple of days ago we did a spontanious FoW run and it took about 45 minutes to set up a team (getting people to join, deciding on professions, 'omg... I have homework. Cya', 'everyone has 3 hours at least to play?', 'Oh, I have to ask my mum', 'wait', 'Y, I can play').
Now take heroes.
Go to ToA 1, load heroes, load templates, go.
You just won 45 minutes.
Same story for spontanious vanquishing with a larger group.
Mind you that I'm in a dedicated HM guild, so people are willing to join quite often on spontanious events.

The only thing to avoid this is making a schedule, get enough people to sign up, appoint roles and builds and insist on people that signed up to join or get boot from guild (sounds like a PvP guild to me).
With a bit of luck you can start 15 minutes after scheduled time.
Since H&H allow for spontanious group setup, I will keep that as reference.

Once in an area the guild group will be faster.
But there is still 45 minutes to make up for the initial group setup.
Did you also calculate that in your 'significantly slower' statement?

Oh, I am not opposed to an other tool.
I just know that if A-net even starts thinking about this again (which they probably don't) they need to dedicate resources to it (it's not as easy as it sounds to implement).
And since resources are limited, other things will not be done.
I can think of very few things that are less important than 7 heroes.
There is no need, only 'nice to have' and no-one has yet convinced me that this is a 'must have'.

ok Archaic lost all credabilty with the statement that 7 heroes are "wayyyyy" stronger than 8 people.

Im sure there is a whole lot of logic and reason behind that right? Because Heroes can move out of AoE, they can choose the best spells to int, they can pre kite, they stay in wards, they combo skill together. Yeah they really are great.

Unless of course all that was sarcastic...hmm
It might be actually.

In which case real players > Heroes.

[QUOTE]either apologize for calling them liars or give proof that you know more about the game coding than the designers/programmers you say are lying

Well they said it wasnt "in their design view" which means they didnt want to do it not they couldnt. Besides the fact they have heroes ingame shows adding heroes is completely possible.

Should enough support for this idea bring it to their attention again they may reconsider.

7 hero's is though. Have seven custom AI henchman who can interrupt perfectly, heal more effectively(in dire situations). They have better reflexes, ad 7 hero's would make PvE broken. It'd be too easy. So yeah. I'm creditless, and you, your QQing.

AHAHAHAHA
Heroes with their limited AI (they even can't run ZB monk or SS echo necro FFS) are stronger than a party of 8 people with pve skills?
Learnnot2phail

Archaic...

Yes they int faster...but they will happily int a poor skill such as flare and then let MS through. A player wouldnt do that.
Yes a monk who reacts faster, but doesnt know to use ZB on targets only under 50%. Same for WoH. A monk who wont kite and cant manage energy.
Yes a hero than cant maintain enchantments automatically and wont cast them again once removed.

Yeah they deffinately make everything so much easier.

To suggest they are more powerful than a player really is absurd.

I think you've been playing with some very bad players.

archaic + anet =


archaic, instead of playing dev (its not halloween YET silly), how about you do something productive and tell the rest of the dev guild Zealots of Shiverpeaks (ZoS) to come read this post and realize that people DO have lives outside of this game, and that they DO want to access high end content.

Maybe they'll do it for us right before GW2 drops. So this way anyone not coming over can have some fun, lol.

Then again, probably not.

maybe the mods can kill this thread like the other one

If you don't like the thread, don't read the thread. The thread, you see, is OPTIONAL, unlike playing with other people in elite zones.

Im hoping this thread is left open. As it isnt a suggestion. While no more suggestions on the subject are being accepted discussing the pros and cons amongst players should be fine.

And if someone from Anet gets so bored as to wander into this thread they might have a read.

I actually did enjoy reading this thread. I agree its totally optional. But when a discussion thread turns into name calling and telling people they fail as a player it kinda goes off base and ends up being fodder after a while. Its hard for people to stay on track on forums, its easier for people to call each other names with no points attached. Just saying if people dont want to keep to the conduct rules, maybe they should close this one as well.

That I wouldn't disagree with, though it is worth noting that it's specific individuals (from both sides of the issue) that are creating the problem and not the issue itself.