Which mission deserves the prize for the worst design?

Since complaining about Vizunah in Sardelac forum a couple weeks ago, I've noticed some improvement on my last few runs.

Togo, who is normally trailing the group, is now at the forefront when moving from the 2nd to the 3rd fight. I was actually afraid he'd over-agro, but he pauses just before where the area where the 1st Am Fah mob drops down to let you catch up and pauses again before the 2nd drop down mob.

Can anyone confirm this?

Remember: "difficulty" and "design" are two different subjects. Everyone is going to have a different opinion of the difficulty of these missions.

The only thing I ever hated has been fixed...Any mission that required a full set of infused armor back when you could only infuse one peice at a time....Infusion run anyone? Only took 5 runs if no one Leroyed...Ah, the good ol' days....*sighs*

Vizunah Square wins for the bugs, not so much for having the two Quarters etc. I rather liked that for its being different.

As someone else said, you can complete the thing alone if the other side rage quits or the other side is just AI. You can also have a friend on Teamspeak and coordinate when you enter the mission so you are on one side and they the other. Works especially well if you both enter from an International District since not many parties enter from there. Its actually hardest with another human team on the other side. I like this aspect of Vizunah Square though for the quirkiness. Its just very buggy.

Ruins of Surmia: too long and boring.
Nolani Academy: escorting NPCs is FTL.
Borlis Pass: boring.
Frost Gate: boring.
D'alessio Seaboard: too long and boring.
Divinity Coast: boring, and escorting NPCs is FTL.
The Wilds: too long and boring.
Bloodstone Fen: too long and boring.
Aurora Glade: Beginning is boring, the Crystal capture/fighting White Mantle part is really fun, ending is boring.
Riverside Province: really long, but otherwise ok.
Sanctum Cay: hideously dull, and the worst part of the design is that it is damned near impossible to do the mission and the bonus at the same time. In practical play, you have to choose one or the other. That, to me, is a huge design flaw in the mission.
Dunes of Despair: getting to the interesting part is boring, but once you get there, it's not bad. Again, though, it's really difficult to do the mission and bonus at the same time; bad mission design. All they really need to do is change the mission so that you have to talk to the ghost again after the 10 minute timer is expired, and you can complete the mission. What that would accomplish is make it so that you have control over when the mission ends, so you have time to install the ghost, defend the ghost, wait out the timer, and THEN go do the bonus portion, then come back and finish the mission by talking to the ghost. Problem solved...
Ice Caves of Sorrow: you can only really finish the bonus if your team is willing to go into -60DP, or if you did mission only and came back for the bonus later. If you can't do the mission and bonus at the same time, it's bad mission design.
Thunderhead Keep: used to be harder, now it's far far too easy. Need to toughen it up, increase the spawns. It's just stupid to think that an enemy would try to capture a fortress by sending 2 guys at a time. He'd send 200 guys at a time, and fsck you if you can't take it. They're not trying to give you a fair chance, they're trying to take a frickin' fort, here...
Abaddon's Mouth: fun mission, lots of good skill capping, but honestly, the ghost's walk speed needs to be sped up. You clear the castle, clear the path, free her, and then you wait for 20 minutes while she walks the perimeter of the entire castle wall. TOO LONG. Why not just make her follow you at your speed from the start? If you don't clear the path, you're just going to have to heal her arse in combat. I don't understand why they made it MORE of a pain in the arse when they were trying to make it EASIER for noobs. pls fix k thx bai.

Minister Cho's Estate: forced noob training is FTL. I know that the noobs are noobs, but let us click on togo and get past the lame engine training.
Vizunah Square: NPC escort is FTL. the AI's pathing and movement speeds are retarded. Togo and Mhenlo need to stay on their group leader's ASS, or else they need to be excised from the mission as requirements.
Eternal Grove: this mission is actually fun. I enjoy it. I don't know why most people hate it. Actually, I do, but it wouldn't be polite to say it here.
Unwaking Waters: Another mission i don't really have much problem with. Some of the Afflicted swarms can be killer, but build your team right and you're fine. Ironically, playing with humans is harder than playing with h/h here. the h/h generally do a better job of killing when they're not misdirected by poor players.
Gyala Hatchery: the glitch that lets you clear the path before you defend the turtles is a godsend. getting masters would be hideous otherwise. as it is, the initial fight is difficult to keep the turtles alive, you really need good monks/ritualists.
Raisu Palace: pretty fun.
Imperial Sanctum: Shiro sucks. Worst NPC EVER. Just remove him from the bloody game, he ruins everything he touches, which means pretty much all of Factions, and some portions of Nightfall. Honestly, if you can't think of a better NPC story, and can't figure out a way to make a challenging villain without writing broken-arse customized monster skills that laugh at the very concept of game balance, please for the love of god go back to the drawing board.

Jokanur Diggings: some people complain about Kormir killing ghosts, but really it's a lesson in micromanaging your heroes/party.
Blacktide Den: long and boring.
Consulate Docks: not too bad, except for the "i told you not to attack the evil spellcaster, you morons" part.
Venta Cemetary: more long/boring than difficult.
Kodonur Crossroads: who the hell arrests people and imprisons them with all of their equipment intact? Please... but the end-fight is pretty good!
Moddok Crevice: boring arse mission, with objectives that fail to trigger properly a lot of the time. People have a hard time with this one for no good reason, because they don't build properly for it. I can see failing it once or twice, until you clue in to snares, but repeatedly, come on... and that's only if you want the Master's. Otherwise, just continue on and as long as you don't die, it's yours. Total gimme mission.
Grand Court of Sebelkeh: This mission is reasonably difficult. It's PVP training, but most people don't clue in to that.
Dzagonur Vestibule: need to have a crack team, or else you're not completing this one. I'm in favor of that, in general.
Dasha Vestibule: a "run the gauntlet" type of mission. kinda boring after the first few times.
Gate of Desolation: another "run the gauntlet" mission. zzz.
Ruins of Morah: the difficulty on this one is just retarded. You lead people through familiar easy-land and then drop this on them? wtf? honestly, reduce the frequency/speed of torment spawns, give people a little bit longer to work on Varesh. She's already retardedly powerful. It's not even Varesh that makes things difficult, it's the torment creatures. It's nice to step things up, but damn!
Gate of Pain: not too bad as long as people aren't retards. unfortunately, they are.
Gate of Madness: getting to the wormholes isnt bad. Defeating the wormholes is pretty do-able for non-noobs. But Shiro... again, shiro ruins everything he fscking touches, and this mission is no exception. his retarded arse skill bar makes the end portion just hellish and completely unenjoyable. Yes, you can distract him with a warrior and a monk. but should you have to? bah. fix shiro's skill bar, downgrade it to something freaking sane for a warrior to have, and it'll be ten times better.
Abaddon's Gate: more video-gamey than any other mission in guild wars, IMO. i honestly felt like Mario when I did this mission... find the tactic, repeat the tactic over and over until you win. yay.

i know all that feedback sounds terribly negative, there are a lot of them that are well designed, but those are the ones that need some help. in essence:

* anything that feels like it drags on too long
* anything that feels more like work than play
* anything that requires me to babysit NPC's, who have the most bare-bones retarded AI programming found this side of the shiverpeaks
* anything where the difficulty jumps unexpectedly
* anything where you can't practically do the mission and the bonus in the same session
* anything involving shiro

those things will make a mission badly designed. pls go back and address any missions that fit any of those criteria.

eudas

I lol'd I didn't like Arborstone due a tedious beginning and frustrating collapses. I found using the Necrotic Traversal tactic in Dunes of Despair pretty fun, i've done it twice.

I don't like a lot of the Prophecies missions, just because they're so long. This is mainly a problem in Ascalon.. I also dislike a lot of the Factions missions, were you have to escort someone. Having to keep someone alive is very irritating, especially when you're the only human player in the party and you have to agro mobs, as the NPC will always follow you.

THK - Stone Summit...they call THAT a siege? (i did better in pre-school :s) needs to be rethought more like Eternal Grove.

Abaddons Mouth - that ghost just draaaaaags her ectoplasmic feet, she needs a Segway or something. (i should mention that in the Horses thread now that i think about it...segways for all!)


most missions that require protecting non controllable NPCs. who are these people we absolutely MUST protect? we end up doing all the hard work anyways!

i dont like Venta Cemetary.. its sooo easy, and really really dull, the same enemy again and again ... duhh boring

I hate all the timed missions. It drives me nuts that instead of bothering to create bonus objectives, you're supposed to do the exact same thing faster. So lazy and disappointing.

This is why my monk will stay a Guardian of Tyria. I don't hate myself enough to go for Guardian in the other campaigns.

Divinity Coast. That bonus drives me crazy.

Moddok Crevice is nearly as bad.

Must say I agree with the OP on Moddok's Crevice. The runners may be easy, but only when you're prepared for them, which is a bit off in an otherwise bland, midgame mission. And I hate being told what to do - especially by Dunkoro.

I've also never bothered completing the bonus on Venta Cemetery - it made no sense - the first time I spent ages trying to find a way round and then the message pops up to "Neutralize all guard posts"... WTF? Sneak out... oh and criss-cross, double back a few times, killing everything on the way? Sense, make, not.

Vizunah I love though, warts and all.

My only problems with Vizunah are the issues with Mhenlo and Togo. They get stuck.. they lag behind the party so long that it's hard to get masters sometimes because they take so long. Otherwise it's been an easy one to finish.

Have to agree that a lot of Prophecies mission are overly long compared to most of the the ones in other campaigns.

Unwaking is kinda stupid with the melee uselessness there, but not a biggie.

Timed missions in general are a bad idea.

And yeah, any mission where getting the bonus and mission done at the same time are basically at odd with one another is a really bad design.

I dont ahve a problem with the missions. Please, Never Never Never make another Kaineng.

Any mission that takes over half an hour to complete is poorly designed mission if you ask me. THK probably should have been broken up into two parts and the last mission in proph is too long (and no end-game green). I also hate that one in the jungle that it's really easy to get lost in.

Overall factions in general has the worst missions mostly because people feel compelled to bring a MM along for each one. That said, I didn't get as annoyed at having to repeat factions missions for all my chars save for raisu.

The NF poorly designed missions are those require you to bring a hero, meaning you can't have 8 PCs if you wanted to do pug with 8 other players or you are forced to bring a hero you'd rather not have.

LOL so true. if any mission forces u to run a single build that requires a glitch for masters, that mission = fail. granted this is only in hard mode, but the fact remains that this blows.

Fully possible with a legitimate build.

For all people having trouble with Gyala, I used an extra bonder monk to bond the turtles, have someone pop a ward when they are not moving and you're home free without painstakingly clearing the entire map first.

hands down

vizunah and gyala hatchery.

if you've ever tried getting masters in these missions, you'll know what i mean.

I don't

I can understand about gyala hatcery,and I totally agree there, but vizunah is nothing more than bashing ugly afflicted, you just have to hope on those 2 slowpokes not getting stuck somewhere.

I'd probably say most of Factions because that's where some total F-tard came up with the design principle of throwing lots of huge patrols really close to each other. People complain about PVE skills limited the game now, but builds were limited much earlier when you had to deal with crappy design like that.

I hate timed missions, so mostly Factions.

I kinda like longer missions, they have that "epic" feeling.

What mission is the worst designed... all competitive missions. Especially PACMAN, aka Remains of Sahlaja. Out of Character and too much like an arcade game.

For the normal missions, I vote for:

1. Unwaking Waters
timed, wave after wave, boring somehow and a chance to have a screwup party with you, just like Vizunah, but worse imo and not the mass battle feel of that one either.

2. Abaddon's Gate
most anticlimatic boss fight ever, the boss in the background was major fail and made me laugh.

3. Divinity Coast
as it is a time-consuming escort that can end disappointing
The bonus of Abaddon's Mouth is also excrucriating.

4. Thunderhead Keep
Takes too long, but the general idea of a siege there and the siege ballistae is actually nice

5. Gate of Madness
i have no problems with the difficulty - but it should be two missions, the final battle separated.

6. Grand Court of Selbekoh
i hate the setting of a platform floating in whatever. Did not look like the theater and again had an arcade feel. I do not think it was pvp training as someone mentioned, it was out of character for me, too arcady.

I've been reminded lately (I've been skill capping in Cantha) that a bunch of the Canthan missions don't supply you with more than 1 monk hench. I guess they expect you to use Prof. Gai... Not so much of a problem now with heroes, but what bad design!

I have to agree and disagree with you on this one. I agree that any mission that makes it impossible to do both mission and bonus in 1 run is badly designed, but both mission and bonus are easily achieved in Ice Caves. I h/h this one all the time and have never had difficulty completing it.

For me, I dislike missions that make it impossible to achieve both in 1 run (Sanctum Cay, Dunes of Despair)

I dislike any mission that 1 moron can totally ruin. If you have an idiot and 7 experts on the team, then you should have the option of completing the mission with 1 man down. It's not fair that 1 person can ruin the whole thing.
Ruins of Surmia - "Please don't kill the ember bearers". "Awww crap, Leroy just killed them."
The Wilds - "Please don't kill the centaur". "Awww crap, Leroy just killed them."
Bloodstone Fen - "Please don't kill the guardians". "Awww crap, Leroy just killed them."
Jokonar Diggings - "Please don't kill the ghosts". "Awww crap, Leroy just killed them."

You get the idea. These are annoyances, however they can be overcome by quizzing your teammates before starting. Anyone who appears clueless can be kicked.

For truly "bad design", I have to nominate those missions in which the bonus requires you to ignore the mission objectives. It's confusing for anyone doing the mission for the first time.

Riverside Province - Objective: "sneak past watchtowers. Avoid detection"
Bonus: "kill everything in sight"

Ring of Fire - Objective: "avoid front entrance. Sneak around back"
Bonus: "charge right in"

Riholn Refuge - Objective: "deactivate all the water pumps"
Bonus: "Don't touch those pumps!!"


I guess I should also mention the missions I really enjoy.
The Great Northern Wall - nice design for beginners. a level 5 should be able to complete it. Much better than Minister Cho's or Chabek Village. Minister Cho's is way too slow. Constantly stopping to listen to Togo. Chabek Village is too easy. A beginner could easily solo it.

Nahpui Quarter - I don't know why I enjoy this one so much, but I do. I struggled to complete it when I first found it and could only finish it by killing all the tengu and leaving the bosses alone. Then I went back thru the whole map and killed the bosses. Took awhile, but got me past it. Nowadays I can breeze right thru killing everything.

Pogahn Passage - Love the Star Wars schtick.

Tihark Orchard - It's nice to find a mission thats "different". No fighting tons of mobs. No race against the clock. Just a nice peaceful afternoon in the garden. (Well, almost peaceful). It also guarantees that the noobs cannot simply buy the protector title. They have to complete this one on their own.

Haha Raven do you really think that this mission (Tihark Orchard) will stop a noob from buying the protector title?!?!?! It's a rather easy mission to get masters on in the first place and someone who bought their way to protector titles elsewhere will just check wiki and find out all he needs to know. Oh but let's not forget that there are mobs of 3 or 4 harpies that you have to kill, SOLO (with 8 vabbian guards and other guests tanking for you).

Maybe, they expected you to play with..... REAL PEOPLE!!!! *crowd gasps*. I know, it's totally insane.

Dzagonur Bastion is the most annoying mish ever. You have to play offensively and defensively in order to get masters. One of my suggestions is to split up into 3 groups, but it didn't go well. The design I believe is the worst due to the annoying tactics you have to plan with your team (I did manage to do masters with another player and did it with 6 heroes while playing as an elementalist, and he send the disciples on one side while I defended the right side, but it was still annoying).

To beat Dzagonur's you sent 2 groups of Whispers NPCs to the East, 1 to the center, and you start your whole party on the south, killing the bosses and sweeping S-SE-E until the Air Ele boss is last. Move to reinforce the center/catch patrols trying to sneak by as needed. Your group does need to be resilient and loaded for fast killing. The longer you take, the less time between nme spawns, which means the longer you take the harder it gets.

Eudas

For me the prize of the worst mission design goes to every mission (or quest) which involves a NPC that rushes into mobs, dies and let the entire party fail. If npc's want to suicide by running into large mobs, be my guest. But don't let the whole party die in the process.

I also don't like timed missions for masters, since I like to take the time and try different strategies.

Well, I'd have to say my least favorite types of missions are ones where you have an NPC with you and if they die the mission fails...although if you're in a good PUG then it usually goes ok. Also, the missions where you have to stop to listen to an hour worth of flipping NPC dialogue. Also, wasn't too crazy about Aurora Glade mission where you had to run those stupid crystals all over to capture the pedestals.

Tahnnakai Temple IMO. The whole 'you get swarmed by shitloads of exploding monsters' is bs. It wouldn't be as bad if the damn thing wasn't timed, so Anet doesn't promote rushing and that crap.

i do like moddok but the whole follow dunkoros plans was abit flawed in my opinion.
I love all prophecies missions because back then they were challenging and alot of fun. Its probably because it was a fresh game and everyone wasn't lvl 20 with max armor.
the last misison in prophecies i remember took along time and i remember the adreniline rush you got on it. nowadays these missions kinda suck because they're too easy

Tahnakii Temple and Vizunah used to be some of my favourites but ive got annoyed with them trying to do it on all my characters. especailly on my main who needs Tahnakii Masters and all the other characters have it.

I think eternal grove and gyala hatchery can be fun at times but irritating at other times. the other masters my monk needs is gyala and i dont even wanna touch it because its horrible when 1 little turtle dies.

if anyone says gates of madness, i disagree. i think it was really well planned because the different routes etc, the challenge and over all look was enojoying despite the week it took me to do. now i can easily do it

I dont see the issue with that mission! Ok so its not perfect, but its certainly not hard in normal or hard mode. You very, very, very simply have to kill two characters who you just slow down or snare and then its done.

The big creature near the end is so unbelievable easy. Its one of the easiest missions ingame and not worth crying about.

But as for the worst mission ever....

...there isnt really any mission I would consider bad. I think alot are very well designed and fun to do, but alot arent perfect either. But I wouldnt say any are bad.

Alot of people are going to love and hate different ones because they suit different likes and dislikes. Whether it be heavy handed attacking, puzzles or some kind of NPC protecting... we all dislike certain things and like others.

But I think its a given that any mission which requires you to keep an NPC alive (who usually suicide run), is badly designed. I cant think of any striaght out, but im sure they do exist (something GWEN fixed by auto-ressing NPCs thankfully).

Plus any mission that requires two teams to join up; You either get NPCs or a human team of useless players or a mix. Forcing us to play with 16 players and not being able to choose the other 8 is just a bad idea and you can understand why unwaking waters is always empty.

Its just not a popular mission because its random who/what you get.

I think most people dislike missions the first time they cant do them... then they realise their easy and stop worrying and realise their quite fun.

The Eternal Grove. Very hard to H+H, was impossible to get Masters with henchmen before you were able to tell your heroes where to go.

I've H/H'ed this one for masters. AFAIK, there is no mission that can't be mastered with heroes. Sometime, it just takes a while. This one certainly did.

My vote goes for Vizunah. Can't stand having to depend on another team for my score.

Those three mish in crystal dessert would be my pick. Imagine without runners to those places. :P

Hard mode much?

I love the desert missions (done them so often I can now do them blindfolded and with one hand tied behind my back :P), but I agree that getting to the mission outposts is a pain. The random Jade Scarab pop-ups make the desert an unfun place to be. I always get runs to Elona/Dunes/Thirsty

I didn't like getting to the desert. I vowed to myself not to hire runners to ruin my experience in Prophecies. So I got to Augury Rock thinking to myself "time to ascend" so I click on the priest and try ascending. But there are these three people who are telling me things to do and I just thought that they were metaphors, or the kinds of things that NPC's say ( nothing meaningful).

timed missions were a lame idea, but ultimately weren't that hard. I'd give the dishonor of worst missions to any of the ones that required you NOT to kill something.

Exactly! Moddok's Crevice was pretty lame for that reason. Note, I have no problem with having to use snares. I did have a problem with the logic we were using them. Oh no, if we don't kill the runners we're going to have to kill 6 extra corsairs! That will take us all of about 20 seconds! The HORROR!