Zealous Benediction to Healing Prayers
Spazzer
Last year, we told you not to keep Zealous Benediction in Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that nobody would use Healing Prayers if a megaheal was added to Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that Protection Prayers was already more powerful than Healing Prayers.
This year, I'm here to tell you "I told you so".
Arenanet, when you changed Zealous Benediction from 0 energy to 3 energy, you didn't do the right nerf. You completely ignored the imbalanced part of this skill, and guessed about the reason it was so popular. By adding a direct healing skill (actually two, the other being Dismiss Condition) to Protection Prayers in Nightfall, you removed the only limitation a monk specializing in Protection Prayers had: being able to heal.
Please take this into consideration during your next skill balance. I remember a time when you tried very hard to get rid of another, less powerful skill combination introduced with Protection Prayers in a build we called "Boonprot". You've made a prot monk's self reliance and healing ability much better than it used to be, and they don't even need to sacrifice their energy regen.
This year, I'm here to tell you "I told you so".
Arenanet, when you changed Zealous Benediction from 0 energy to 3 energy, you didn't do the right nerf. You completely ignored the imbalanced part of this skill, and guessed about the reason it was so popular. By adding a direct healing skill (actually two, the other being Dismiss Condition) to Protection Prayers in Nightfall, you removed the only limitation a monk specializing in Protection Prayers had: being able to heal.
Please take this into consideration during your next skill balance. I remember a time when you tried very hard to get rid of another, less powerful skill combination introduced with Protection Prayers in a build we called "Boonprot". You've made a prot monk's self reliance and healing ability much better than it used to be, and they don't even need to sacrifice their energy regen.
Antheus
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Last year, we told you that nobody would use Healing Prayers if a megaheal was added to Protection Prayers |
Sure, they frequently suck, and can't outheal a single party member, but they are around. LoD comes handy sometime.
But perhaps a better question would be - why does it matter? Protection is where it's always been at. Unless you're going against some nasty form of party degen, then protection will usually be a better bet.
ZB isn't as good as it looks. It's downright punishing for skill spammers - making it a very suitable skill for protection, which requires some fore-thought, contrary to healing which is frequently about spamming. And I believe that ZB alone is inadequate, that's why many like GoH to support it.
It's all but useless on heroes.
Bouldershoulder
Zealous Benediction, in my mind, was meant for an efficient heal for those that still wish to protect. It's also a decent energy management spell, allowing you to heal someone without the big load of energy.
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Bouldershoulder
Zealous Benediction, in my mind, was meant for an efficient heal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antheus
ZB isn't as good as it looks.
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Right now, Prot Monks are better Healing Monks than Healing Monks.
KamikazeChicken
I could swear I always have that LoD monk in the party, but I guess he doesn't count as healing prayers anymore. >.>
Winterclaw
Seeing how a lot of protect monks often put 8-10 points into HP and bring GoH, I don't see the problem with ZB.
Sab
ZB is one of the very few viable Monk builds in 4v4, and moving ZB to Healing Prayers will weaken the build substantially. Are you suggesting this change because of continuity, or is there an actual balance problem with ZB?
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Seeing how a lot of protect monks often put 8-10 points into HP and bring GoH, I don't see the problem with ZB.
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Sab, I haven't monked TA since the time I used to Boonprot there so I don't know anything about that. :] Seems to me the problem with 4v4 lies more in the fact that other classes (such as N/Rt) support better than Monks do. However, I made this thread with a monk-to-monk comparisson. Let's not get into other class discussion.
So, what would you do to make monks viable in 4v4 if ZB is moved? To me, Monks are to TA in the same way that Mesmers are to PvE.
HawkofStorms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazzer
Last year, we told you not to keep Zealous Benediction in Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that nobody would use Healing Prayers if a megaheal was added to Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that Protection Prayers was already more powerful than Healing Prayers.
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ZB's entire point is to have a dirrect heal in prot. That's why it opperates as it does and is used as it is. Moving it into healing prayers wouldn't make the skill any "worse," but it would invalidate the ENTIRE POINT of the skill. Its not like it was a bug where a.net accidentally put ZB into prot. A.net designed ZB so (*gasp*) it would be used.
Its viable in 4v4 but still not overpowered (anybody who says it is should try playing a shutdown character like a mesmer or necro in RA and you'll see monks are puty in your hands). Most of the people who complain about prot monks being to powerful in 4v4 are people who don't bring any counters to them (ie, ways to strip enchanments or ways to attack through block skills or ways to interupt).
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Who is this "we" you speak of? There were numerous petitions by people to move ZB to healing as soon as NF went live. There was about a 2 to 1 "not signed" on those petitions. Don't you try to speak about "us" like that. Most people in fact agreed with keeping ZB in prot. The justification?
ZB's entire point is to have a dirrect heal in prot. That's why it opperates as it does and is used as it is. Moving it into healing prayers wouldn't make the skill any "worse," but it would invalidate the ENTIRE POINT of the skill. Its not like it was a bug where a.net accidentally put ZB into prot. A.net designed ZB so (*gasp*) it would be used. Its viable in 4v4 but still not overpowered (anybody who says it is should try playing a shutdown character like a mesmer or necro in RA and you'll see monks are puty in your hands). Most of the people who complain about prot monks being to powerful in 4v4 are people who don't bring any counters to them (ie, ways to strip enchanments or ways to attack through block skills or ways to interupt). |
Sab
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Sab, I haven't monked TA since the time I used to Boonprot there so I don't know anything about that. :] Seems to me the problem with 4v4 lies more in the fact that other classes (such as N/Rt) support better than Monks do. However, I made this thread with a monk-to-monk comparisson. Let's not get into other class discussion.
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By moving ZB to Healing Prayers, you're weakening the ZB build (the attribute spread means lower Prot spec, and lower spec for self-defense skills). And by weakening the ZB build, you'll make balanced teams more fragile and promote more gimmick backlines. That's not good for TA.
Melody Cross
^^Thats what he is asking for...a weaker ZB build.
Its not the elites that make prot more versatile than Healing prayers. Its the skills in prot itself. Healing Prayers in general are trash. The HP enchantments are too conditional, too expensive, too slow to cast with poor uptimes. They don't defend as well as Prot spells, so you can't pre-prot with them effectively. Self prot with healing prayers is non-existent to prevent farming abuse.
ZB requires no nerf. Its what protection prayers needed: a strong self heal. Moving it to Healing Prayers will nerf 4v4 monks. I don't support such a move, and didn't in the past. Don't speak for all of us in the future please OP. Speak for yourself.
For me? /nosignever
Its not the elites that make prot more versatile than Healing prayers. Its the skills in prot itself. Healing Prayers in general are trash. The HP enchantments are too conditional, too expensive, too slow to cast with poor uptimes. They don't defend as well as Prot spells, so you can't pre-prot with them effectively. Self prot with healing prayers is non-existent to prevent farming abuse.
ZB requires no nerf. Its what protection prayers needed: a strong self heal. Moving it to Healing Prayers will nerf 4v4 monks. I don't support such a move, and didn't in the past. Don't speak for all of us in the future please OP. Speak for yourself.
For me? /nosignever
Spazzer
@Sab
Now, how about this: If Healing Prayers was removed entirely from the game with all of its skills included, how much would that -honestly- affect your 4v4 build? Yes, Monks are bad outside the ZB build in 4v4. I don't think the 4v4 format should be the benchmark for skill balance.
However, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, and I hope someone important will read it. I think it's underlining a problem a little deeper than Protection being completely self-sufficient.
Now, how about this: If Healing Prayers was removed entirely from the game with all of its skills included, how much would that -honestly- affect your 4v4 build? Yes, Monks are bad outside the ZB build in 4v4. I don't think the 4v4 format should be the benchmark for skill balance.
However, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, and I hope someone important will read it. I think it's underlining a problem a little deeper than Protection being completely self-sufficient.
Rice
ZB to be honest, is a skill designed for team has only 1 monk, such as Ta and Ra where monk have to prot and heal. You mentioned 4v4 format should not be the benchmark for skill balance. but in 8v8 situation, there are way better elite for monks than Zb, specially 2 or 3 monk backline. So maybe we should just leave ZB alone and give TA monks a break.
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazzer
Right now, Prot Monks are better Healing Monks than Healing Monks.
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Sab
The problem with the Healing line is that it doesn't offer much beyond "red bars go up". There's a skill that heals, another skill that heals for a little bit more, another to heal yourself, an so forth. There's not much more to it. On the other hand, Prot offers a lot more utility - more "Prot", which is generally better than "heal target for X."
In 4v4, you have to pack all that utility down to a single Monk bar. You need condition removal, hex removal, e-management, self-defense and damage mitigation, all on one bar. Healing Prayers simply can't do that, and moving ZB to Healing isn't going to help. To improve Healing, you need to introduce utility.
In 4v4, you have to pack all that utility down to a single Monk bar. You need condition removal, hex removal, e-management, self-defense and damage mitigation, all on one bar. Healing Prayers simply can't do that, and moving ZB to Healing isn't going to help. To improve Healing, you need to introduce utility.
Chris Blackstar
Spazzer,
To change ZB to healing prays is a bad idea. I do not play a monk that often, but it is better served to be in protection prayers. HP has enough elete skills that offer the same type of conditional healing that ZB does, so HP is fine. And yes a monk who is consintrateing on protection does become more valuable to a team if the can provide emerceny healing when needed that will not effect their energy managment as much as the skill provides.
Lastly I am tired of players wanting everything nerf because they are having a tough time countering a build, and just want to complain instead of finding a viable counter. All I can say is learn to play the game, as I said before, I will say it again, nothing and I mean nothing from it's inception has ever been overpowered, skill, spell, or otherwise. "Being Overpowered" is a term used by players who lack the aptitude to develope counters to a good team or build, and simply want a easy way out. Knowledge is power, use it to your advantage, or quit.
To change ZB to healing prays is a bad idea. I do not play a monk that often, but it is better served to be in protection prayers. HP has enough elete skills that offer the same type of conditional healing that ZB does, so HP is fine. And yes a monk who is consintrateing on protection does become more valuable to a team if the can provide emerceny healing when needed that will not effect their energy managment as much as the skill provides.
Lastly I am tired of players wanting everything nerf because they are having a tough time countering a build, and just want to complain instead of finding a viable counter. All I can say is learn to play the game, as I said before, I will say it again, nothing and I mean nothing from it's inception has ever been overpowered, skill, spell, or otherwise. "Being Overpowered" is a term used by players who lack the aptitude to develope counters to a good team or build, and simply want a easy way out. Knowledge is power, use it to your advantage, or quit.
Winterclaw
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To improve Healing, you need to introduce utility. |
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Sab
To improve Healing, you need to introduce utility.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
taking it to healing prayers would essentially be removing it from the game.
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Deadlyjunk
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
ZB is hardly imbalanced, and taking it to healing prayers would essentially be removing it from the game. There is no balance issue here, just the idea that all red bars go up skills need to be in healing prayers.
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ZB is not even good, it's viable at best. It's the only thing that keeps monks that have any effect on the game in RA/TA anyway, other than SoR bonders. I don't get why you're making a point of this tbh... healing prayers are underplayed? LoD ftw.
Spazzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk
/agree
ZB is not even good, it's viable at best. It's the only thing that keeps monks that have any effect on the game in RA/TA anyway, other than SoR bonders. I don't get why you're making a point of this tbh... healing prayers are underplayed? LoD ftw. |
Micromaster
I really don't see a problem with ZB being where it is. It was created for the fact so in a 4v4 situation, a prot monk could carry a heal. That's like saying Gift of Health should be moved to prot because so many prot monks use it... I believe it's fine where it is.
Spazzer
Gift of Health is red bars go up so it belongs in healing. ZB is red bars go up so it belongs in healing.
Saying that ZB is the only effective 4v4 elite is wrong, as I can make an effective boonprot monk that will serve its function in 4v4. Saying that ZB does it better simply reinforces my point that it is much too strong in its current attribute.
Saying that ZB is the only effective 4v4 elite is wrong, as I can make an effective boonprot monk that will serve its function in 4v4. Saying that ZB does it better simply reinforces my point that it is much too strong in its current attribute.
TGgold
If ZB were in healing prayers, I don't see why people wouldn't just use a max specced WoH.
The results aren't half as tragic if you flub over the 50% mark with WoH, wheras a 10e spell(ZB) on a heal monk would be tragic. a 5e Spike Heal is pretty much always available, wheras at ZB I can see becoming a burden when pressed for energy.
The results aren't half as tragic if you flub over the 50% mark with WoH, wheras a 10e spell(ZB) on a heal monk would be tragic. a 5e Spike Heal is pretty much always available, wheras at ZB I can see becoming a burden when pressed for energy.
Spazzer
You can't target yourself with WoH. Comparing WOH and ZB is not logical.
Edit: Apologies.
Edit: Apologies.
Sab
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Which will then make it Prot (healing with utility). You're starting to catch my drift, aye?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazzer
Gift of Health is red bars go up so it belongs in healing. ZB is red bars go up so it belongs in healing.
Saying that ZB is the only effective 4v4 elite is wrong, as I can make an effective boonprot monk that will serve its function in 4v4. Saying that ZB does it better simply reinforces my point that it is much too strong in its current attribute. |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
Lastly I am tired of players wanting everything nerf because they are having a tough time countering a build, and just want to complain instead of finding a viable counter. All I can say is learn to play the game, as I said before, I will say it again, nothing and I mean nothing from it's inception has ever been overpowered, skill, spell, or otherwise. "Being Overpowered" is a term used by players who lack the aptitude to develope counters to a good team or build, and simply want a easy way out. Knowledge is power, use it to your advantage, or quit.
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Winterclaw
ZB is a heal for protect monks because they need to heal HP too from time to time and their usefulness outweighes that of healing prayers. I mean look at the HA meta, if you see a team in the HoH with 3 monks, likely they'll have two protect monks and one healer.
Spazzer, what you don't seem to get is that prot is a utility line and healing can be a part of utility. HP has better heals in general and doesn't really need ZB.
Spazzer, what you don't seem to get is that prot is a utility line and healing can be a part of utility. HP has better heals in general and doesn't really need ZB.
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Sab
Healing Prayers will still be stuck with a pile of crappy heals and no utility. If you move ZB to Healing, you'll just force people to run 12/9/9 because they'll still use all the good skills from Prot.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Spazzer, what you don't seem to get is that prot is a utility line and healing can be a part of utility.
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Rice
I think the reason we like ZB is because it is good in 4v4. And yes we like it to keep that way for TA/RA. In a 8v8 team, where u can have multiply monks, Lod and RC is almost a must just because of all the degen/condition thread you will face in a 8 man team. And yes ZB does heal alot for cheap when someone is below 50% health, but the 3/4 cast time is not designed to stop spike, especially in ha or gvg, that what infuse health is for.
Melody Cross
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
You use LoD in RA/TA? RA/TA is your arguement for keeping ZB in Prot.
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You're pretty quick to bust on the RA crowd, but TA can be competitive. Spazzer, in what arena are you hoping to use ZB in? If it goes to Healing Prayers, where are you wanting to use it?
Teh [prefession]-zorz
since im in a pissy mood ill make this short.
IF YOU WANT TO USE A ZB USE A WORD OF HEALING.
quit freaking QQing and learn how to monk.
IF YOU WANT TO USE A ZB USE A WORD OF HEALING.
quit freaking QQing and learn how to monk.
HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Don't ever cite RA in a discussion about balance.
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ValaOfTheFens
/notsigned
ZB is just one of a handful of skills that let Prot Monks heal. In the end HP monls will always heal better than Prot monks. ZB is just one skill in the face of dozens of better and/or cheaper HP spells. The energy gain is only there because its it Prot. If you moved it to Heal then the energy bonus would need to be removed or it would have to be made more expensive. No thanks.
ZB is just one of a handful of skills that let Prot Monks heal. In the end HP monls will always heal better than Prot monks. ZB is just one skill in the face of dozens of better and/or cheaper HP spells. The energy gain is only there because its it Prot. If you moved it to Heal then the energy bonus would need to be removed or it would have to be made more expensive. No thanks.
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Sab
I think your argument is more about continuity than actual balance.
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I do not believe Protection Prayers needs an unconditional heal. I don't think anyone here has convinced me that it deserves one other than the "but we've had one for a whole year" arguement. I believe monk is still viable in 4v4 without ZB in Prot. I don't believe that putting ZB in healing prayers will kill the usefulness of the skill itself.
Deadlyjunk
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Saying that ZB does it better simply reinforces my point that it is much too strong in its current attribute.
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FACT: ZB is worthless except in RA/TA.
FACT: ZB is beatable in RA/TA.
CONCLUSION: There is no "ZB balance issue"
HYPOTHESIS: OP is incapable of keeping self alive with healing prayers or unable to kill ZB prot monks?
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk
FACT: ZB is worthless except in RA/TA.
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Quote:
HYPOTHESIS: OP is incapable of keeping self alive with healing prayers or unable to kill ZB prot monks? |
Deadlyjunk
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
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I consider that "proved". If you disagree, I'm gonna do the typical political and lame (but effective) response: prove that it isn't. Give me a working build with ZB for something else than 4vs4 (or scrimmages).
moriz
healing already have ZB: it's called word of healing. if you think WoH sucks, then the same will be said of ZB if you move it to healing.
anyways, the whole "make red bars go up = healing" concept is bad. spirit bond makes red bars go up. should it be in healing as well?
anyways, the whole "make red bars go up = healing" concept is bad. spirit bond makes red bars go up. should it be in healing as well?
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk
there are no builds with ZB in either the GvG ... or PvE metagame to speak of.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
spirit bond makes red bars go up. should it be in healing as well?
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traiur
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
You would think I'm suggeting another nerf to Soul Reaping for the universal reaction of shock and condemnation, which makes me believe even more firmly that I am correct.
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This is not a healthy way to discuss any topic as its entirely one sided. It would be exactly the same as talking to a brick wall except that the brick wall talks at you.