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Originally Posted by Darkhell153
zealous benediction includes energy management so in my opinion if they change it, it should be in divine favor not healing prayers.
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Zealous Benediction to Healing Prayers
ValaOfTheFens
Div
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Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
This is what all PvP'ers fail to undersatand, that GW was a failure from the start. The game failed because Anet in there crappy wisdom wanted to merge PvP and PvE together.
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Tyla
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Who are you?(spirit bond behaves exactly like Healing Hands and Seed, which are healing; you'd understand that if you used it more often) |
[skill]spirit bond[/skill]
[skill]healing hands[/skill]
[skill]healing seed[/skill]
get it now?
Sab
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Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
This is what all PvP'ers fail to undersatand, that GW was a failure from the start. The game failed because Anet in there crappy wisdom wanted to merge PvP and PvE together. Problem was that the skills were designed at a PvE level. They made them powerful to battle monsters and to add challenge to the game, however when those skills were introduced to PvP players, at first it seemed ok for the first year, since everyone was on the same playing field, but as new player base joined, the old player base started to develop an advantage.
Thus skill nerfing started to appear, and mainly for HoH, since it was the most popular style of PvP play. From then on HoH builds and teams continued to dictate how skills were nerfed or buffed, yet Anet still designed skills with PvE in mind for each new chapter. This continued until GW:EN, but by then it was to late. |
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Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
So please don't tell me I do not have enough experience at PvP and understanding skill balancing, it's ovous to me that that spazzer is a griefer. End of story
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Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
Lastly I am tired of players wanting everything nerf because they are having a tough time countering a build, and just want to complain instead of finding a viable counter. All I can say is learn to play the game, as I said before, I will say it again, nothing and I mean nothing from it's inception has ever been overpowered, skill, spell, or otherwise. "Being Overpowered" is a term used by players who lack the aptitude to develope counters to a good team or build, and simply want a easy way out. Knowledge is power, use it to your advantage, or quit.
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Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
ZB was designed to give protection prayers some extra healing abilities besides what they get from divine favor with energy management built into it. It was designed for PvE since most team builds have a healing monk and a protection monk, the carry over to PvP was a bonus discovered by experienced players.
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Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
It was designed for PvE since most team builds have a healing monk and a protection monk, the carry over to PvP was a bonus discovered by experienced players.
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Are you kidding me?
NF Pre-View weekend.
I remember so much TA and HA (and the slightest bit of GvG) where ZB was a new, fascinating, amazing pvp prot heal.
Trust me, ZB caught on from the start. If you're going to say it started in PvE because
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| team builds have a healing monk and a protection monk |
ZB is a great elite in the prot line as it is, and very much complements the TA monk's bar.
EDIT:
ZB works very well in a prot, line; there's no reason beside it being a direct heal to move it to healing prayers. Should SoR be moved to Healing as well, because it gives you regen like Healing Breeze?
Faer
This discussion is very circular. Circular discussions are not productive. Unproductive threads make Sardelac a bad place.
Be less redundant, please.
Be less redundant, please.
MagmaRed
I see no reason to move a skill simply because it acts differently than most of the other skills in that attribute. Consider other classes, and skills that function more like a skill from s different attribute. Need examples?
[skill]Feast of Corruption[/skill]
- Life stealing, sounds like Blood Magic to me
[skill]Guilt[/skill]
- Energy stealing, sounds like Inspiration Magic to me
[skill]Shield Bash[/skill]
- Blocking, sounds like Tactics to me
[skill]Vow of Piety[/skill]
- Enchantment maintenance, sounds like Mysticism to me
[skill]Wielder's Remedy[/skill]
- Condition removal, sounds like Restoration Magic to me
[skill]Chilling Winds[/skill]
- Cold damage, and a hex, sounds like Water Magic to me
[skill]Sadist's Signet[/skill]
- Self heal, sounds like Shadow Arts to me
[skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill]
- Healing shout, sounds like Motivation to me
[skill]Viper's Nest[/skill]
- Trap, and poison, sounds like Wilderness Survival to me
There are more, I just pulled out the ones that came to me first. You could argue that Reversal of Fortune is a heal too, and should be moved. Shield of Regen provides health regen, it should be moved. The list becomes unbearably long if you try to fit EVERY skill into a 'correct' attribute. Zealous Benediction is fine, it is not over powered, and it does not need to be moved to Healing Prayers.
[skill]Feast of Corruption[/skill]
- Life stealing, sounds like Blood Magic to me
[skill]Guilt[/skill]
- Energy stealing, sounds like Inspiration Magic to me
[skill]Shield Bash[/skill]
- Blocking, sounds like Tactics to me
[skill]Vow of Piety[/skill]
- Enchantment maintenance, sounds like Mysticism to me
[skill]Wielder's Remedy[/skill]
- Condition removal, sounds like Restoration Magic to me
[skill]Chilling Winds[/skill]
- Cold damage, and a hex, sounds like Water Magic to me
[skill]Sadist's Signet[/skill]
- Self heal, sounds like Shadow Arts to me
[skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill]
- Healing shout, sounds like Motivation to me
[skill]Viper's Nest[/skill]
- Trap, and poison, sounds like Wilderness Survival to me
There are more, I just pulled out the ones that came to me first. You could argue that Reversal of Fortune is a heal too, and should be moved. Shield of Regen provides health regen, it should be moved. The list becomes unbearably long if you try to fit EVERY skill into a 'correct' attribute. Zealous Benediction is fine, it is not over powered, and it does not need to be moved to Healing Prayers.
MithranArkanere
Some skills exists to 'fill gaps' and/or balance an unused attribute.
With Zealous Benediction a monk can still heal quite some points even with only protections and divine favor.
That's why it's there.
With Zealous Benediction a monk can still heal quite some points even with only protections and divine favor.
That's why it's there.
Chris Blackstar
Sab,
I agreed with you that ZB should stay with protection prays. I disagree with you that skills were designed for PvP sololy.
example is sandstorm, given it's damage qualities before it was nerfed, there was no way someone could not have forseen the problems it caused in PvP.
Second example, Paragon, almost all the skills for that character have been nerfed. The devs did plenty of testing and field testing with PvP on that character, yet only nerfed it after cries of being overpowered in HA
So to say that the skills were designed for PvP only makes the devs sound stupid, I would have to say that a lot of those skills had a PvE designed to them, and after seeing them overpower PvP, they were toned down, "Nerfed"
Oh and if you disagree, atleast tell me why, and show some proof if you feel I am wrong.
I agreed with you that ZB should stay with protection prays. I disagree with you that skills were designed for PvP sololy.
example is sandstorm, given it's damage qualities before it was nerfed, there was no way someone could not have forseen the problems it caused in PvP.
Second example, Paragon, almost all the skills for that character have been nerfed. The devs did plenty of testing and field testing with PvP on that character, yet only nerfed it after cries of being overpowered in HA
So to say that the skills were designed for PvP only makes the devs sound stupid, I would have to say that a lot of those skills had a PvE designed to them, and after seeing them overpower PvP, they were toned down, "Nerfed"
Oh and if you disagree, atleast tell me why, and show some proof if you feel I am wrong.
Antheus
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| So to say that the skills were designed for PvP only makes the devs sound stupid, I would have to say that a lot of those skills had a PvE designed to them, and after seeing them overpower PvP, they were toned down, "Nerfed" |
But due to their slow uptake in PvE, few noticed it until the skills got changed enough. Even today, in PvE, multiple paragons are quite "imbalanced".
This is also where perception comes into play. While at some absolute level some things may be perfectly well balanced, the temporary popularity of some skill/build/class skews perception.
And then, rather than adapt, most wait for something to get nerfed. Ultimately, it's a game.
moriz
just to clarify one minor point: GW has always been pvp first. every skill (with exception to those retarded pve-only skills) was designed for pvp use. whatever a skill does in pve is merely an extra bonus. in fact, GW would've been a much better game had there been no pve at all.
the original prophecies campaign was originally intended as a huge (and extremely well designed and rendered) tutorial to prime a player for pvp play. everything happening before the ascension missions teaches basic game mechanics and basic teamplay. the ascension missions with the 15 attribute quests round out the basic character creation process as well as teaching some basic pvp gametypes. everything happening after the ascension missions were really an elaborate excuse to cap elite skills. anet was just kind enough to add in a storyline to make that process less boring.
the original prophecies campaign was originally intended as a huge (and extremely well designed and rendered) tutorial to prime a player for pvp play. everything happening before the ascension missions teaches basic game mechanics and basic teamplay. the ascension missions with the 15 attribute quests round out the basic character creation process as well as teaching some basic pvp gametypes. everything happening after the ascension missions were really an elaborate excuse to cap elite skills. anet was just kind enough to add in a storyline to make that process less boring.
Darkobra
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Originally Posted by moriz
just to clarify one minor point: GW has always been pvp first. every skill (with exception to those retarded pve-only skills) was designed for pvp use. whatever a skill does in pve is merely an extra bonus. in fact, GW would've been a much better game had there been no pve at all.
the original prophecies campaign was originally intended as a huge (and extremely well designed and rendered) tutorial to prime a player for pvp play. everything happening before the ascension missions teaches basic game mechanics and basic teamplay. the ascension missions with the 15 attribute quests round out the basic character creation process as well as teaching some basic pvp gametypes. everything happening after the ascension missions were really an elaborate excuse to cap elite skills. anet was just kind enough to add in a storyline to make that process less boring. |
Sab
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Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
Sab,
I agreed with you that ZB should stay with protection prays. I disagree with you that skills were designed for PvP sololy. example is sandstorm, given it's damage qualities before it was nerfed, there was no way someone could not have forseen the problems it caused in PvP. Second example, Paragon, almost all the skills for that character have been nerfed. The devs did plenty of testing and field testing with PvP on that character, yet only nerfed it after cries of being overpowered in HA So to say that the skills were designed for PvP only makes the devs sound stupid, I would have to say that a lot of those skills had a PvE designed to them, and after seeing them overpower PvP, they were toned down, "Nerfed" Oh and if you disagree, atleast tell me why, and show some proof if you feel I am wrong. |
But I never said all skills were designed for PvP. There are plenty of skills that I'd imagine were designed for PvP, such as Avatar of Grenth, Gale and Holy Veil, since they offer utility that just isn't needed in PvE. On the other hand, skills like Dolyak Signet are probably made for PvE. As I said in my previous post, neither you nor I can say for certain, so I don't know why you're stating your theories as fact.
Winterclaw
What I don't get is why does every skill line have to follow some idea precicely. I mean look at water magic... a third of the skills in there you could argue belong to another class. In fact as a non-nuke oriently line you might even argue that it'd be better off moving the entire line into another class. Or look at warriors. Riposte and Deadly riposte both require swords, but they are in tactics. Or you can look at the hammer skills that are in the strength line. Or look at rits and how the spirit that rezzes your party is in communing.
Did it ever occur to the people who want to move ZB that maybe the devs put some skills where they are in order to spice things up? If I were a protect monk who really wanted to heal people, I could bring:
[skill]Air of Enchantment[/skill][skill]Dismiss condition[/skill] and be able to both heal and remove conditions pretty cheaply. Maybe spam RoF on the guy as a cover.
I think the key point of the non-move ZB people is this: protect monks can heal too and have found ways to ever since boon protect.
Did it ever occur to the people who want to move ZB that maybe the devs put some skills where they are in order to spice things up? If I were a protect monk who really wanted to heal people, I could bring:
[skill]Air of Enchantment[/skill][skill]Dismiss condition[/skill] and be able to both heal and remove conditions pretty cheaply. Maybe spam RoF on the guy as a cover.
I think the key point of the non-move ZB people is this: protect monks can heal too and have found ways to ever since boon protect.
glountz
Buff Healing Hands to a 8 secs recharge so healing will have its nice prot elite skill like Prot have ZB its nice elite healing skill.
And add some direct cond removal in healing too.
And add some direct cond removal in healing too.
Mithie
Who cares? Honestly, who cares? Move ZB to the healing line, whatever. I'll just spec a little more into healing than prot and replace gift on my bar with a second small prot or D Kiss.
Whatever.
Whatever.
HolyHawk
I think ZB doesn't really fit in the concept of protection prayers, but leaving it there keeps a lot of bars versatile. If anything should be changed it would be probably the healing prayers line, such as WoH going target ally and not target other ally, and healing light being almost free, since it is a very weak heal. What makes ZB "powerful" is that it allows mitigation + direct (huge) healing in the same bar with a great stat otimization; you can't get that with healing prayers, and that's why I think the approach should focus that line.
KazeMitsui
imo OP uses healing prayers in RA/Ta and cant figure out why he loses with healing breeze, orison, and ressurect on his bar...
thus he needs zb in hp
imo l2monk or something for 4v4
thus he needs zb in hp
imo l2monk or something for 4v4
Skyy High
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Originally Posted by Darkobra
Nice opinion. Shame it's got as many holes as a sieve.
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Saphatorael
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Originally Posted by glountz
Buff Healing Hands to a 8 secs recharge so healing will have its nice prot elite skill like Prot have ZB its nice elite healing skill.
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IMO, Healing Prayers needs some improvements, à la Light of Deliverance.
With GW:EN, they gave us Healing Ribbon, which would be an excellent example of how I'd like to see the entire Healing line reworked.
LoD is mainly being used to relieve pressure on the team, something comparable to most Protection skills, so why not expand on the idea?
Well, basically I'd like to see Healing Prayers work more with AoE effects.
Word of Healing could have a 'Nearby' AoE bonus heal if the condition is met. Healing Light gives back Energy and heals allies adjacent if he/she is enchanted. Healing Burst... well, still need to work a bit more on that one, maybe it should remove a condition and/or hex if only 1 ally is affected.
Healing Hands could be Adjacent too (so it'd basically be a real elite version of Healing Seed), etc. etc.
It either needs some more versatility, or just more efficiency without becoming too much like Protection Prayers. But it shouldn't remain what it is right now: underpowered.
Melody Cross
Methinks someone read a little too much intot he GWP AoE nerf Chris. Most skill balances are to address PvP issues in PvP areas. because of this fact, most players look at skill balance from a PvP point of view.
@glountz: I suggested a 5/.25/10 recycle for HH some time ago, with a reduced uptime to 5 as compensation to prevent farm abuse. Players seemed to think it would be too powerful.
@glountz: I suggested a 5/.25/10 recycle for HH some time ago, with a reduced uptime to 5 as compensation to prevent farm abuse. Players seemed to think it would be too powerful.
Tiyuri
Ok, so I don't understand this thread.
The OP says he hasn't played TA since boon prots, and doesn't like RA being part of a balance discussion, are we then supposed to assume that he's suggesting Zealous benediction is overpowered in GVG or HA?
In which case, lol.
The OP says he hasn't played TA since boon prots, and doesn't like RA being part of a balance discussion, are we then supposed to assume that he's suggesting Zealous benediction is overpowered in GVG or HA?
In which case, lol.
Aera
just /close topic
the fact that he even considered moving ZB to healing shows the lack of pvp knowledge he has
the fact that he even considered moving ZB to healing shows the lack of pvp knowledge he has
Shendaar
So basicly, your solution to fix the shitty attribute that is Healing Prayers(with the exception of a few skills) is to move one of the good Protection elite skill into HP. How bout making the HP elites not suck instead?
PP > HP regardless of which of them ZB is in.
PP > HP regardless of which of them ZB is in.
freaky naughty
Wait if we were to look at this from a PvP point of view this skill is almost useless. The only place I see it used are the competitive missions like Fort Aspenwood, and occasionally AB. This is almost never the case in GvG, HA, or TA.
ValaOfTheFens
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Originally Posted by freaky naughty
Wait if we were to look at this from a PvP point of view this skill is almost useless. The only place I see it used are the competitive missions like Fort Aspenwood, and occasionally AB. This is almost never the case in GvG, HA, or TA.
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Div
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Originally Posted by glountz
Buff Healing Hands to a 8 secs recharge so healing will have its nice prot elite skill like Prot have ZB its nice elite healing skill.
And add some direct cond removal in healing too. |
yum
They should as well buff mending to 5 pips at 12 healing prayer!! so my echo mending build will be uber !!! 
elektra_lucia
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Last year, we told you not to keep Zealous Benediction in Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that nobody would use Healing Prayers if a megaheal was added to Protection Prayers. Last year, we told you that Protection Prayers was already more powerful than Healing Prayers.
This year, I'm here to tell you "I told you so". Arenanet, when you changed Zealous Benediction from 0 energy to 3 energy, you didn't do the right nerf. You completely ignored the imbalanced part of this skill, and guessed about the reason it was so popular. By adding a direct healing skill (actually two, the other being Dismiss Condition) to Protection Prayers in Nightfall, you removed the only limitation a monk specializing in Protection Prayers had: being able to heal. Please take this into consideration during your next skill balance. I remember a time when you tried very hard to get rid of another, less powerful skill combination introduced with Protection Prayers in a build we called "Boonprot". You've made a prot monk's self reliance and healing ability much better than it used to be, and they don't even need to sacrifice their energy regen. |
Boon protting was more common and in divine. ZB does not belong in healing in my opinion. It gives energy at low health. Sometimes in RA (which is the primary use for ZB at the moment I would say) someone else can heal just as you're about to ZB and you lose energy. It's conditional, which so often protection skills are.
If it is to be changed put it in divine. At least there the description mentions energy gain. It won't effect anything if you balance it right but it will make you happy as it won't be a false description, self-proclaimed by you I might add... It should not be in healing. Debatable that it is even a false description if you're to look up the words zealous and benediction in a dictionary. Not to mention the IN GAME description of protection prayers:
No inherent effect. Many Monk skills, especially Enchantments that prevent damage or ***__provide healing__***, become more effective with high Protection prayers.
Then you might care to look up the definition of protection: the act of protecting or the state of being protected; preservation from injury or harm.
Well it seems you prevent harm if you stop the player dying with it, yes?
You kind of had half a point. Especially if you were to say divine and not healing, but you ruined it with your nonsense to begin with.
Fail
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Curse You
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Originally Posted by elektra_lucia
You sound like a TV commercial. Bit like the news, they lie all the time too... That's exactly what you start off with, lies.
Boon protting was more common and in divine. ZB does not belong in healing in my opinion. It gives energy at low health. Sometimes in RA (which is the primary use for ZB at the moment I would say) someone else can heal just as you're about to ZB and you lose energy. It's conditional, which so often protection skills are. If it is to be changed put it in divine. At least there the description mentions energy gain. It won't effect anything if you balance it right but it will make you happy as it won't be a false description, self-proclaimed by you I might add... It should not be in healing. Debatable that it is even a false description if you're to look up the words zealous and benediction in a dictionary. Not to mention the IN GAME description of protection prayers: No inherent effect. Many Monk skills, especially Enchantments that prevent damage or ***__provide healing__***, become more effective with high Protection prayers. Then you might care to look up the definition of protection: the act of protecting or the state of being protected; preservation from injury or harm. Well it seems you prevent harm if you stop the player dying with it, yes? You kind of had half a point. Especially if you were to say divine and not healing, but you ruined it with your nonsense to begin with. Fail . |
So:
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Originally Posted by elektra_lucia
Fail
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Melody Cross
Every time you necro a thread, a thousand puppies die...
Or lick themselves, I can't remember which
Or lick themselves, I can't remember which
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by Curse You
Guess what? If you had bothered to actually read the other posts, you would have seen numerous examples of skills that don't fit into their attribute.
So: Yes you did. |
bungusmaximus
Lol this thread still alive? What are these TA monks going to use when you take away their ZB? Every other elite gets more or less owned in there. ZB is just needed to deal with the huge pressure in TA, any other option will leave the monk energy-less in a very short time.
DarkGanni
I still don't understand why ppl want to ruin what works good. Maybe it's just me but if the OP uses his brain he realises WoH would become useless. Close thread I see this going nowhere. Another bad idea.
- Ganni
- Ganni
elektra_lucia
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Originally Posted by Curse You
Guess what? If you had bothered to actually read the other posts, you would have seen numerous examples of skills that don't fit into their attribute.
So: Yes you did. |
Also, you contradicted yourself. If there are many skills which don't fit into their correct attribute then why change ZB and not them other skills first? :]. Now, just for you I am going to read some of the other pages and I'm sure I'll find more illogical arguments.
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Gift of Health is red bars go up so it belongs in healing. ZB is red bars go up so it belongs in healing. Saying that ZB is the only effective 4v4 elite is wrong, as I can make an effective boonprot monk that will serve its function in 4v4. Saying that ZB does it better simply reinforces my point that it is much too strong in its current attribute. |
See where I'm going with this? If you make up your own descriptions or imagine them, then yes MANY skills WILL be in the wrong place =D.
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| Why? This was something that came up ages ago when Spirit Bond was introduced to the game. Spirit Bond does not deminish damage taken. Spirit Bond only heals. Its effect mirrors Healing Hands. |
It is suited just fine in protection prayers.
Dismiss condition fits just fine because it works in conjunction with an enchantment which are generally protection prayers. Note I say : GENERALLY.
Before you start to use your wonderful mending as a counter to a debate....
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| No inherent effect. Many Monk skills, especially Enchantments that prevent damage or ***__provide healing__***, become more effective with high Protection prayers. |
Today kids we will learn about the word especially....
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es·pe·cial·ly /ɪˈspɛʃəli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-spesh-uh-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adverb particularly; exceptionally; markedly: Be especially watchful. [Origin: 1350–1400; ME; see especial, -ly] —Synonyms signally, notably; mainly. Especially, chiefly, particularly, principally refer to those cases that seem to be significant. Especially and particularly single out the most prominent case or example (often in order to particularize a general statement): Winter is especially severe on old people. Corn grows well in the Middle West, particularly in Iowa. Chiefly and principally imply that the general statement applies to a majority of the cases in question, and have a somewhat comparative force: Owls fly chiefly at night. Crime occurs principally in large cities. |
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adverb 1. to a distinctly greater extent or degree than is common; "he was particularly fussy about spelling"; "a particularly gruesome attack"; "under peculiarly tragic circumstances"; "an especially (or specially) cautious approach to the danger" [syn: particularly] 2. in a special manner; "a specially arranged dinner" |