ZB is so bad, it's not even funny. The only time it's remotely good is when you're the only monk, such as in TA.
You said "don't even cite RA in these", but I'm getting to think you only play RA. Who in their right minds would run a ZB in HA/GvG? Occassionally you see the third monk as ZB (probably a flag runner or split) but that's pretty much about it.
Zealous Benediction to Healing Prayers
lutz
moriz
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Yes. Why is it assumed that I shouldn't agree with this?
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Spazzer
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Originally Posted by traiur
This is not a healthy way to discuss any topic as its entirely one sided. It would be exactly the same as talking to a brick wall except that the brick wall talks at you.
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Originally Posted by moriz
you've just lost any chance of anyone agreeing with what you say. congrats.
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Winterclaw
Spirit bond meshes too well with protective spirit to break those two up. Plus it only heals if you take a lot of damage to begin with and a heal monk shouldn't be fooling around with what-ifs like that. However you can cast it on someone you think might get spike which means it is pre-prot and belongs in protection.
traiur
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
I could argue with a rock, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong, or that the game would not improve if my suggestion was taken.
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And actually yes, if you aren't willing to have a actual discussion then there is no way for us to prove to you that you are wrong, ever, even if you are indeed horribly and utterly wrong (I personally don't care where ZB is as I GvG and its not useful to me).
What I'm stating is that until you let go of any sort of bias you might have and actually sit there and think about what each person has said, there is no point in even responding to them as all it serves to do is show that you really don't want to discuss. You just want to cram an idea down an unwilling throat.
I'm not saying you are wrong. As I've stated, I don't care. Just you are not acting logically and you are trying to argue using logic. Sorry but non logical actions do not beget logical thoughts or outcomes. (thats logic)
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Spirit bond meshes too well with protective spirit to break those two up. Plus it only heals if you take a lot of damage to begin with and a heal monk shouldn't be fooling around with what-ifs like that. However you can cast it on someone you think might get spike which means it is pre-prot and belongs in protection.
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Originally Posted by traiur
And all you serve to do by saying this is to further prove my point.
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ValaOfTheFens
Spazzer, is your real issue with the fact that ZB steps out of Prot's "purview" or that its powerful?
From a PvE perspective, ZB is pretty good when wielded by an actual person. I've had somewhat mixed results with monk heroes. Its not remarkably useful in PvE, as it is outclassed by LoD, WoH, and Healer's Boon, but it can get a Prot monk into a party(although parties that require every monk to have a heal probably sucks).
From a PvP perspective, its an absolute house(please excuse my Magic terminology). More healing than WoH(though more expensive), respectable recharge, and possible energy gain. Even knowing all that I can't see it in HP. The energy gain is conditional and is only a factor when you're doing a bad job at preventing or reducing damage. I find ZB to very consistent with the overall concept of Prot. It gets your health back to a level thats easily managed by Prot spells and costs more than your average HP spells because of it.
From a PvE perspective, ZB is pretty good when wielded by an actual person. I've had somewhat mixed results with monk heroes. Its not remarkably useful in PvE, as it is outclassed by LoD, WoH, and Healer's Boon, but it can get a Prot monk into a party(although parties that require every monk to have a heal probably sucks).
From a PvP perspective, its an absolute house(please excuse my Magic terminology). More healing than WoH(though more expensive), respectable recharge, and possible energy gain. Even knowing all that I can't see it in HP. The energy gain is conditional and is only a factor when you're doing a bad job at preventing or reducing damage. I find ZB to very consistent with the overall concept of Prot. It gets your health back to a level thats easily managed by Prot spells and costs more than your average HP spells because of it.
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens
From a PvP perspective, its an absolute house(please excuse my Magic terminology).
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| The energy gain is conditional and is only a factor when you're doing a bad job at preventing or reducing damage. |
ValaOfTheFens
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Would you say that Healing Light can be described the same way?
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Micromaster
Spazzer, we should add all monk skills to healing since they make red bars go up. Don't forget about the divine favor bonus. 
All I can do is laugh...
All I can do is laugh...
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens
No. Because I'm looking at it from the perspective of Prot rather than Heal.
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Originally Posted by Micromaster
Spazzer, we should add all monk skills to healing since they make red bars go up. Don't forget about the divine favor bonus.
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Sab
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
It's both. What I'm lolling over is that I'm seeing a lot of "Gasp, you'll break the meta!". You would think I'm suggeting another nerf to Soul Reaping for the universal reaction of shock and condemnation, which makes me believe even more firmly that I am correct.
I do not believe Protection Prayers needs an unconditional heal. I don't think anyone here has convinced me that it deserves one other than the "but we've had one for a whole year" arguement. I believe monk is still viable in 4v4 without ZB in Prot. I don't believe that putting ZB in healing prayers will kill the usefulness of the skill itself. |
Spazzer
A team build can still be balanced if it doesn't include a Monk, Sab. Moving ZB does not weaken ZB itself. It would weaken the Prot line mildly.
lutz
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
A team build can still be balanced if it doesn't include a Monk, Sab. Moving ZB does not weaken ZB itself. It would weaken the Prot line mildly.
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Rits = Ritspike, and is still crap due to the fact that it has no prot.
/Mos = whatever the primary is
Paragons = Zergway
Anything else = /resign
The entire point of Zealous Benediction is that it breaks the rules, and by doing that we are satisfied. Ever played "Magic: the Gathering"? How far would the game be now if they only stuck directly to the rules, directly to the themes of each color? Not very far, apparently.
Rules need to be broken, and games get fun when they do.
Spazzer
lutz, we're talking about 4v4.
lutz
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
lutz, we're talking about 4v4.
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Spazzer
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Originally Posted by lutz
Nobody (worth mentioning) plays 4v4 seriously. Good PvPers only play TA when they're bored.
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thor hammerbane
Uhm..No.
Keep ZB where it is, it is a good elite for 1 monk teams that need prot and heal.
Keep ZB where it is, it is a good elite for 1 monk teams that need prot and heal.
ValaOfTheFens
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
You stated that Zealous Benediction belongs in Protection Prayers because it gives conditional energy back and because it heals if the target is dying. Healing Light meets this criteria and is already in Healing Prayers. Looking at it from the perspective of Prot rather than Heal, what is the difference between these two skills that you would say makes Zealous Benediction meet the "overall concept of Prot"?
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With Healing Light already in existence was there really a need to put ZB in HP?
Its clear that ANet was just wanted a mirror for WoH. I've always been confused as to why it doesn't say "target other ally". That one blib is more worrisome than the fact there's a decent heal outside HP.
Melody Cross
You still haven't answered my question of page 2 Spazzer...what game type would you be using ZB in if this change where implemented?
I'm leaning toward Sab on this one. It seems that the only reason the OP has for putting ZB into healing Prayers is because it heals. That and his misinformed belief that ZB is imba.
Moving ZB to prot will only force players to use a substandard elite in 4v4. They would have to take Glimmer for a self heal, or BLight, or something else. It would kill a solid build to promote unstable ones, force more off-monk protting to compensate in 4v4.
In PvE it would become a dead horse. Hybrid prot Dual LoD, Lod/BLight, or bual BLight builds are all any team needs to beat areas beyond elites (and those tend to need a gimmick build mechanic).
You're alone on that limb Spazzer. You thought it was a good idea a year ago and people disagreed. After a year of play, most appear to like ZB just fine where it is...and what it does because of where it is.
/voteforclose
I'm leaning toward Sab on this one. It seems that the only reason the OP has for putting ZB into healing Prayers is because it heals. That and his misinformed belief that ZB is imba.
Moving ZB to prot will only force players to use a substandard elite in 4v4. They would have to take Glimmer for a self heal, or BLight, or something else. It would kill a solid build to promote unstable ones, force more off-monk protting to compensate in 4v4.
In PvE it would become a dead horse. Hybrid prot Dual LoD, Lod/BLight, or bual BLight builds are all any team needs to beat areas beyond elites (and those tend to need a gimmick build mechanic).
You're alone on that limb Spazzer. You thought it was a good idea a year ago and people disagreed. After a year of play, most appear to like ZB just fine where it is...and what it does because of where it is.
/voteforclose
Sab
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
A team build can still be balanced if it doesn't include a Monk, Sab. Moving ZB does not weaken ZB itself. It would weaken the Prot line mildly.
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Thom Bangalter
destroy the 4v4 arena metagame because you don't like where they put a spell? o ok
Spazzer
Thom I would never try to destroy your arena metagame. :* I'd hate to see you go from 12 10 8 to 11 10 10
Who? Nobody dissagreed. We knew how bad putting an unconditional heal in Prot would be.
Of course they do, because they all like to use it.
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Originally Posted by Melody Cross
You thought it was a good idea a year ago and people disagreed.
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| After a year of play, most appear to like ZB just fine where it is...and what it does because of where it is. |
Auron of Neon
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
This year, I'm here to tell you "I told you so".
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| To me, Monks are to TA in the same way that Mesmers are to PvE. |
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| Saying that ZB is the only effective 4v4 elite is wrong, as I can make an effective boonprot monk that will serve its function in 4v4. |
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| Spirit Bond only heals. Its effect mirrors Healing Hands. |
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| Would you say that Zealous Benediction is pre-prot? |
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| A team build can still be balanced if it doesn't include a Monk |
Basically... you've got very little grasp of game mechanics as they apply to monks. Heal had zero utility for a long time, and it still sort of does (cure hex is nice, but isn't everything). Prot has lots of utility. Yes, prot is better than healing (proactive damage mitigation saves tons of energy compared to mindless reactive red-bars-go-up).
In balanced builds in 8v8 arenas, people run a prot and a heal monk (or hybrids; lod with rof isn't uncommon, and every prot monk for a long time has had gift); but in a small arena, where you don't have the room for a prot and a heal, you'd be most effective running a prot (with heals). Even you, Spazzer, admit to that, because you run a prot build with powerful heals.
All in all, you've lost all credibility. You need to practice using different monk skills until you're competant enough with them to be able to tell what they are (spirit bond does not behave like healing prayers, it behaves like prot; you'd understand that if you used it more often).
Winterclaw
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Originally Posted by Sab
I just can't figure out why you'd want that changed for no real reason.
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Grinch123456
Maybe Spazzer is an idiot. Seriously, don't feed the trolls.
Spazzer
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Originally Posted by Auron of Neon
You use dboon, they use ZB. How does that make your build any better?
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| Sure, if you have a rit healer instead (which use prot in the form of weapons). |
Quote:
| Basically... you've got very little grasp of game mechanics as they apply to monks. Heal had zero utility for a long time, and it still sort of does (cure hex is nice, but isn't everything). Prot has lots of utility. Yes, prot is better than healing (proactive damage mitigation saves tons of energy compared to mindless reactive red-bars-go-up). |
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| All in all, you've lost all credibility. |
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Originally Posted by Auron of Neon
(spirit bond does not behave like healing prayers, it behaves like prot; you'd understand that if you used it more often)
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Maybe he lost to a ZB monk.
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Age
When it comes to 4x4 in TA and you are a hybrid or take AB for example and you are using infuse health as the only healing spell on your bar.ZB makes for a great self heal afterwards and I have seen this down on 4x4 team infuse then zb.A build like this would have most of their points in protect.devine favour.healing and any secondary skills.
DreamRunner
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Originally Posted by lutz
Nobody (worth mentioning) plays 4v4 seriously. Good PvPers only play TA when they're bored.
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TA is very competitive, if you didn't know, then its a lack of experience in TA and not to mention that many people find it more fun than GvG.
Giga Strike
ok coming to spazzer's defence:
everything about zealous benediction DOES just scream healing. healing is about restoring lost health which is the only thing ZB does. protection is mainly about decreasing the dmg taken or causing attacks to be blocked.
i understand where he is coming from but like everyone else in the world i agree that it shouldnt be moved to healing, but for a different reason. healing doesnt need it! ive reviewed all of the skills in the prot line and found that ZB is the only healing skill it has and its way too slow to do the work alone. healing has far more skills that restore health and skills that are far stronger.
when it comes down to it ZB is a very weak threat to the healing line. though prot is the most powerful type of monk, its only as strong as it is because most of the prot builds borrow important skills from healing.
/kindasigned
everything about zealous benediction DOES just scream healing. healing is about restoring lost health which is the only thing ZB does. protection is mainly about decreasing the dmg taken or causing attacks to be blocked.
i understand where he is coming from but like everyone else in the world i agree that it shouldnt be moved to healing, but for a different reason. healing doesnt need it! ive reviewed all of the skills in the prot line and found that ZB is the only healing skill it has and its way too slow to do the work alone. healing has far more skills that restore health and skills that are far stronger.
when it comes down to it ZB is a very weak threat to the healing line. though prot is the most powerful type of monk, its only as strong as it is because most of the prot builds borrow important skills from healing.
/kindasigned
Curse You
Some skills don't quite fit their attribute, get over it.
Some examples;
[wiki]Vapor Blade[/wiki] is just damage, unlike the normal hexing of Water Magic.
[wiki]Chilling Winds[/wiki] seems more like a Water Magic skill.
[wiki]Dark Bond[/wiki] seems better suited for Death Magic.
[wiki]Bloodsong[/wiki] the only attack spirit in Channeling (it was moved there).
[wiki]Poison Arrow[/wiki] the only Bow attack in Wilderness Survival.
[wiki]Disarm[/wiki] a sword attack in Strength?
[wiki]Vampiric Assault[/wiki] the only dagger attack in Deadly Arts.
Some examples;
[wiki]Vapor Blade[/wiki] is just damage, unlike the normal hexing of Water Magic.
[wiki]Chilling Winds[/wiki] seems more like a Water Magic skill.
[wiki]Dark Bond[/wiki] seems better suited for Death Magic.
[wiki]Bloodsong[/wiki] the only attack spirit in Channeling (it was moved there).
[wiki]Poison Arrow[/wiki] the only Bow attack in Wilderness Survival.
[wiki]Disarm[/wiki] a sword attack in Strength?
[wiki]Vampiric Assault[/wiki] the only dagger attack in Deadly Arts.
Deadlyjunk
My question from page 2 hasn't been answered. What imbalanced builds or even working builds for HA/GvG/PvE with ZB are there?
/close
/close
Div
Spazzar. You fail at the game. Just don't make another thread asking to move watchful spirit to the healing line because it does healing. kk?
You have no evidence why ZB should be moved to the healing line, and there is strong evidence against such a movement (aka nerf).
You have no evidence why ZB should be moved to the healing line, and there is strong evidence against such a movement (aka nerf).
Antheus
If anything, there should be more such "game breaking" skills.
Too many skills added have served a single class. What's wrong with promoting diversity?
Or better yet, why not just revamp skills, so that everyone can run 14/13 attributes, and forget secondary altogether. To make things simpler.... /sarcasm
What would make things interesting - an Elite prot skill in healing. Then you'd see some diversity. ZB allows prot monks a lot of flexibility. Why should there be a full heal and full prot monk in every party? What's wrong with two heal/prots?
Too many skills added have served a single class. What's wrong with promoting diversity?
Or better yet, why not just revamp skills, so that everyone can run 14/13 attributes, and forget secondary altogether. To make things simpler.... /sarcasm
What would make things interesting - an Elite prot skill in healing. Then you'd see some diversity. ZB allows prot monks a lot of flexibility. Why should there be a full heal and full prot monk in every party? What's wrong with two heal/prots?
RhanoctJocosa
Um? ZB is actually a very well balanced skill.
Darkhell153
zealous benediction includes energy management so in my opinion if they change it, it should be in divine favor not healing prayers.
Melody Cross
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Who? Nobody dissagreed. We knew how bad putting an unconditional heal in Prot would be.
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And you still haven't answered my question of post 60: where the heck is ZB going to see play if its moved to healing prayers??? What arena are you trying to balance the skill for?
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Originally Posted by Grinch123456
Maybe Spazzer is an idiot. Seriously, don't feed the trolls.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Darkhell153
zealous benediction includes energy management so in my opinion if they change it, it should be in divine favor not healing prayers.
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Snow Bunny
Spazzer, from the amount of nay-saying you're receiving around these parts...
it should be pretty RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing obvious that you
a. don't speak for any mentionably significant portion of the community
b. have a valid argumentative point whatsoever
So, let's just go with options c and d
c. /notsigned
d. /threadfailure
it should be pretty RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing obvious that you
a. don't speak for any mentionably significant portion of the community
b. have a valid argumentative point whatsoever
So, let's just go with options c and d
c. /notsigned
d. /threadfailure
Chris Blackstar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sab
Forgive my sarcasm, but do you really think top players, some of which have been playing for two years, hadn't thought about countering builds? Skill balance goes a lot deeper than you think and, judging by your post, I doubt you have enough experience in PvP to understand this.
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Thus skill nerfing started to appear, and mainly for HoH, since it was the most popular style of PvP play. From then on HoH builds and teams continued to dictate how skills were nerfed or buffed, yet Anet still designed skills with PvE in mind for each new chapter. This continued until GW:EN, but by then it was to late.
GW2 will be where PvE and PvP are kept at a distance, and all the mistakes made in GW, I hope will not be repeated. That is the idea anyway.
So please don't tell me I do not have enough experience at PvP and understanding skill balancing, it's ovous to me that that spazzer is a griefer. End of story
ZB was designed to give protection prayers some extra healing abilities besides what they get from divine favor with energy management built into it. It was designed for PvE since most team builds have a healing monk and a protection monk, the carry over to PvP was a bonus discovered by experienced players.
Exterminate all
You would want to balance up the skills, not put all of the powerful skills in healing prayers, and not all of the powerful skills in protection prayers.
Arenanet did a good job on balancing it up and changing it around. If you have 16 healing prayers you could use ZB and all of the other great healing skills without using ANY protection prayers at all. That right there is imbalanced. It would make healing prayers too powerful, and protection prayers not powerful enough.
/notsigned
Arenanet did a good job on balancing it up and changing it around. If you have 16 healing prayers you could use ZB and all of the other great healing skills without using ANY protection prayers at all. That right there is imbalanced. It would make healing prayers too powerful, and protection prayers not powerful enough.
/notsigned