As time goes on I grow to like Zealous and elemental weapon mods more than sundering or furious because I know what the result of a strike will be rather than using a lottery system. On bows, lengthened condition durations (especially Silencing) can be handy too.
I love finding sundering mods because it's easy pocket-money.
The definition of "perfect mods"
makosi
Shadow_7
Quote:
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Originally Posted by makosi
I love finding sundering mods because it's easy pocket-money.
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SotiCoto
Quote:
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
No it's not, and since you obviously don't PvP, it's not worth explaining any further. No offence intended, but since you don't need to mitigate damage in 99% of PvE, there's no point trying to explain this to you, especially if my very simple explanation above did nothing but make you think about tricking AI.
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What can I say? I'm exclusively a PvE'er. I can't "think PvP".
Sorry. I just don't find other people all that interesting. Besides... I can't effectively play mind-games with other meatbags due to their cognitive processes being too erratic and often irrational... AI is predictable in that it will respond to certain things and not to others, and always does it the same way. Meatbags on the other hand have the virtue of brute luck whereby sometimes they won't respond the way I'd like them to simply due to not paying attention or suddenly deciding to do things differently (I'd put counter-mind-play beyond many).
I would honestly only play PvP if I had the oppurtunity to carefully study all my opponents beforehand to analyse and prepare for all their strengths and weaknesses. I really don't do things on the fly too well.
Snow Bunny
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SotiCoto
Are you one of those nutters who runs a Dervish with Forsaken insignias? Do you honestly believe that a Dervish will be below 50% health LESS than it will be without enchantments? This is the class which uses Enchants for health and energy management and upon which half their skills rely... remember?
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It's better just to suppose that your monks will do a good job with you, or, if you have the multi-tasking skills, you can make 20<50 weapons that will make it so that no matter what, you are always dealing 35-40% more damage.
I'd greatly prefer the the guaranteed 35-40% over a fairly conditional/strippable 35%.
EDIT: Just a spacing error
SotiCoto
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
I'd greatly prefer the the guaranteed 35-40% over a fairly conditional/strippable 35%.
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I already went over all this with the others. While in some respects I agree.... there is the whole matter of Dervishes being built around the Enchant concept, and having a great many quickly recharging and easily stacked Enchants available (meaning a lot of covers against stripping)... versus the Dervish still being useful at less than 50% health.
Plus of course the key factor for me: I get a lot of 15/Ench inscriptions and not many 15^50... and since for the sake of the Dervish (at least in PvE) the two are practically interchangeable (Dervishes should be ^50% health AND Enchanted)... I prefer to go with the Ench Inscription and save the 15^50 for someone who needs it more.... like the Warrior.
Bryant Again
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
I'd greatly prefer the the guaranteed 35-40% over a fairly conditional/strippable 35%.
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EternalTempest
Perfect Mod is easy, getting the max of the mod.
So a +1 Attribute 20% chance is perfect vs a +1 Attribute 19% chance (isn't perfect but would still use it).
Now if the mod is desirable, that a different story.
So a +1 Attribute 20% chance is perfect vs a +1 Attribute 19% chance (isn't perfect but would still use it).
Now if the mod is desirable, that a different story.
Bryant Again
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EternalTempest
Perfect Mod is easy, getting the max of the mod.
So a +1 Attribute 20% chance is perfect vs a +1 Attribute 19% chance (isn't perfect but would still use it). Now if the mod is desirable, that a different story. |
So ya I agree.
korcan
i believe that sundering mods on weapons are most desired because they work for almost every build.
mods like zealous or elemental damage mods normally work better on more specific builds.
i have multiple sets of mods on various weapons, so i normally go with what works best with the build im running.
mods like zealous or elemental damage mods normally work better on more specific builds.
i have multiple sets of mods on various weapons, so i normally go with what works best with the build im running.
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Desirable = Perfect, apparentlly...
So ya I agree. |
We can argue over the semantics over what constitutes "perfect", but a very large portion will continue to consider 20/20 +30 to be perfect, at least in terms of melee. Whether this is right or not, you're going to find that that is what sells.
Darkobra
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Originally Posted by SotiCoto
How long does it take with neither?
I mean... for instance... with Zealous, which won't do squat to direct damage. Just so we have some sort of outside frame of reference. We need a "control" if you will to determine whether it is even worthwhile using EITHER of the above. |
Sakkaku Kaikou
I have to admit, save when I'm specifically using one of my elemental weapons, I'm one of those who often use the Sundering mods.
I've noticed the generally higher damage when I use my Vampiric weapon, and the Zealous bonus is nice, but I almost always forget to swap between battles, and having monked more than a fair share of times, I know how annoying it is when someone forgets to swap. So, usually, I would rather use my Sundering weapon than annoy the monk or clutter my inventory with Barbed/Crippling/Cruel/etc. weapons.
Of course, if I'm using an adrenaline build, my Sundering weapon is immediately kicked to the side. ;D
I've noticed the generally higher damage when I use my Vampiric weapon, and the Zealous bonus is nice, but I almost always forget to swap between battles, and having monked more than a fair share of times, I know how annoying it is when someone forgets to swap. So, usually, I would rather use my Sundering weapon than annoy the monk or clutter my inventory with Barbed/Crippling/Cruel/etc. weapons.
Of course, if I'm using an adrenaline build, my Sundering weapon is immediately kicked to the side. ;D
Punches
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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
This is purely a language definition issue.
A perfect mod is technically any mod at maximum. |
moriz
a 20/20 sundering mod will give you more damage than zealous, or any elemental mod for most of the builds.
listing a bunch of builds won't matter, simply because the fact is, sundering is the better choice for a large variety of builds. it is better most of the time. whether you can think up some skill combinations that are more effective with other mods is not really interesting.
sundering is better most of the time for a large variety of builds. that's why it's so desireable.
listing a bunch of builds won't matter, simply because the fact is, sundering is the better choice for a large variety of builds. it is better most of the time. whether you can think up some skill combinations that are more effective with other mods is not really interesting.
sundering is better most of the time for a large variety of builds. that's why it's so desireable.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
a 20/20 sundering mod will give you more damage than zealous, or any elemental mod for most of the builds.
listing a bunch of builds won't matter, simply because the fact is, sundering is the better choice for a large variety of builds. it is better most of the time. whether you can think up some skill combinations that are more effective with other mods is not really interesting. sundering is better most of the time for a large variety of builds. that's why it's so desireable. |
Vampiric is an across-the-board DPS buff. If you're in PvE, this is much more desired - it means shaving seconds off battles, which means more efficient - better. I honestly think people like sundering more because they fear that -1 health degen. I really do.
I'm not saying Vampiric is the best and Sundering is the worst, I don't think anyone is saying that. The point is, Sundering is much like all the other mods in that it has its uses depending on the build. However, Vampiric makes the best "generic use" mod, because of its nature. That is my point.
-Loki-
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Originally Posted by SotiCoto
If there is something useful to be said about people merely standing still at the back of a party when they could actually be doing something... anything.... then I'm just not seeing it (and especially not without an explanation). They aren't mitigating damage from anyone but themselves.... and if it comes down to that, why not mitigate all damage from the party by never setting foot outside the outposts?
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Example: Monks are low on energy, and the constant pressure is hurting their energy even more. So, you stop running around overextended and take less damage because you start kiting instead of sitting in that enemy monks face taking loads of damage, and ask why you are taking so much damage. The monks tell you they are low on energy (in a pug, probably by pinging their energy) and you back off while they can regain a bit of energy. Not doing this leads to monks not being able to heal anyone, because you decided to not use common sense and back off, and they ran out of energy. This leads to a party wipe, because the monks, again, can't heal anyone. The warrior out front dies. The midline dies. The backline dies. Probably while retreating, which wouldn't have been necessary.
SotiCoto
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
a 20/20 sundering mod will give you more damage than zealous, or any elemental mod for most of the builds.
listing a bunch of builds won't matter, simply because the fact is, sundering is the better choice for a large variety of builds. it is better most of the time. whether you can think up some skill combinations that are more effective with other mods is not really interesting. sundering is better most of the time for a large variety of builds. that's why it's so desireable. |
... One pair (Xuekao's Daggers) is in storage... and only because they still have +20% Enchanting. The other (Lou's Korambits)... I'm pondering either giving to Zenmai (whom I never use) or merching completely since it is taking up storage space and proving to be completely useless to me now (now that I don't use Flashing Blades any more).
My weapon sets consist of two dagger-pairs, one bow and one staff... and of those, three have enchanting mods (one dagger-pair, bow and staff), two are zealous (both sets of daggers) and one is vampiric (the bow).
Sundering?
I laugh at Sundering. Leave that to folks with Scythes or Hammers if they're REALLY desperate.
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
Are you really that stupid? The whole point is to mitigate the damage hitting you, if the damage is overwhelming. It takes pressure off the monks, to let the team figure out why that damage is so overwhelming and what can be done about it. As I said, not needed in 99% of PvE.
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You were making it seem as if the half-damaged individual was running about like a headless chicken trying to stop other characters getting damaged by distracting the enemy.
What you're suggesting is what I will already do if trouble hits: Dash (or Bamf) out of aggro. And needed or not for most characters in PvE... it is the entirety of the survival process for most Assassins..... so YES... I know that.
-Loki-
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Originally Posted by SotiCoto
Then why the heck didn't you say so?
You were making it seem as if the half-damaged individual was running about like a headless chicken trying to stop other characters getting damaged by distracting the enemy. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
Kiting isn't using skills to avoid combat or damage, kiting is moving to prevent damage. If there's a melee guy on you, move. He will be hitting less frequently. If you are being hit with projectiles, move as they fire at you, they will miss (ie dodge them). Damage mitigation through movement. Don't run around randomly, recognise what is hitting you and move to best mitigate the damage from that source.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SotiCoto
What you're suggesting is what I will already do if trouble hits: Dash (or Bamf) out of aggro. And needed or not for most characters in PvE... it is the entirety of the survival process for most Assassins..... so YES... I know that.
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RhanoctJocosa
Soticoto.
1) Sundering > your face.
2) You should only be running 1-2 enchants (none of which stick long enough to warrant a 15%ench inscription) on a Dervish. Anymore and you're probably running some stupid Mystic Regen build that does hardly any damage, which is all you need in PvE.
3)
You're so, so, bad at Guild Wars.
1) Sundering > your face.
2) You should only be running 1-2 enchants (none of which stick long enough to warrant a 15%ench inscription) on a Dervish. Anymore and you're probably running some stupid Mystic Regen build that does hardly any damage, which is all you need in PvE.
3)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SotiCoto
For what it is worth... I don't tend to think much of folk who sit around at the back doing no more than contemplating what they got wrong. Hitting things is FAR more useful, even if it could potentially result in them dying.
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Cebe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa
2) You should only be running 1-2 enchants (none of which stick long enough to warrant a 15%ench inscription) on a Dervish. Anymore and you're probably running some stupid Mystic Regen build that does hardly any damage, which is all you need in PvE.
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Saying "you should only be running 1-2 enchants (none of which stick around long enough...)" is a very sweeping statement that can be proved wrong in oh so many ways. That being said, I still believe that a 15^50 weapon is no worse than a 15%(ench) weapon on a Dervish, and given the choice, I would still use the former as it requires less effort and less thought, and is probably more useful for a variety of builds, including the few which do not rely on enchantments. Also, hey, I'm lazy.
As for the Sundering debate, everyone is throwing opinions around, but noone is providing any numbers.
SotiCoto
Generally speaking, when I port or Dash out... I do it to somewhere that the enemies aren't going to be trying to hit me, so moving any further is generally unnecessary until I have my health back and skills recharged... other than to keep with the rest of the party if the battle gradually relocates itself (as it sometimes does).
... Try telling that to the "thwack thwack thwack" of numbers I try to get if I disengage from combat and try to run away WITHOUT an increased movement speed or Bamf. If I can move at ordinary speed, so can they, and the difference is all they need to do is keep pressing the skill buttons (or even less if AI).
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| And I was saying you don't need those skills to do it. Simply moving is effective enough. |
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Smoke
I didnt hear it anywhere, and pls dont take me for a sheep, if you are a 20/20 fanboi then thats fine, as you didnt give any reason why 20/20 is so worth it.
Which brings me to another point, how about ill ask you where you can deem 20/20 more effective then others like zealous, ebon, fiery and so on... i could prolly go on about uses/areas/builds for those mods but in the end it would prolly just fly over ur head... so how about we save ourselfs some time, you read my response carefully, and then you might just understand where im coming from. Cheers |
Except I know more about this game than you ever will. I'll even explain again, since your post is more composed of self-infatuation than explanation.
As far as PvP is concerned, vampiric and sundering have two different approaches. Vampiric gives you slightly more pressure damage. However, most of this small added dps gets mopped up by overheals/LoD. It is still extremely effective in adding, over time, more damage than Sundering. The vampiric degen isn't that significant since it gets cleaned by your own party heals. The downside is that with the meta of partywide passive defense, the added pressure of vampiric weapons is not that significant.
Sundering on high damage weapons such as Scythe/Axe/Hammer has the advantage of being able to unleash a large critical. In a significant number of cases, a target of a spike may be saved with a fragment of health remaining. In these cases, the vampiric mod would not have killed them with the additional -3/-5s. Sundering, when it does trigger, can result in a larger burst of damage which makes it more likely for a person to be killed during a spike rather than live with a small amount of health. Since the point of PvP is to make people die, sundering is arguably effective on spikes as it gives a better chance of a kill when it does trigger than vamp might, even though vamp triggers constantly. Also to note is that the larger sundering hits have more reduced from the effect of prot spirit, are more likely to trigger spirit bond, and suffer from being mitigated.
Zealous and elemental have their own uses as well. Zealous being mainly for axe warriors that use bulls strike/frenzy significantly enough that their energy requires more than the basic regen. However with the number of block skills being used, it can be less effective in many cases. It is also arguable how necessary zealous is at all - and, like sunder/vamp, a question or preference to many melees and their playstyles. Elemental, obviously, is for conjure warriors or killing people that take more damage from elemental.
Still with me? Or did I 'fly over your head'?
makosi
I think it's worth reiterating that sundering only triggers on attack skills (one fifth of the time) whereas vampiric triggers on every successful hit. A lot of people forget that.
Sundering can aid a concentrated spike although vampiric will help with overall pressure. 'Can' and 'will' are important words here.
Sundering can aid a concentrated spike although vampiric will help with overall pressure. 'Can' and 'will' are important words here.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by makosi
I think it's worth reiterating that sundering only triggers on attack skills (one fifth of the time) whereas vampiric triggers on every successful hit. A lot of people forget that.
Sundering can aid a concentrated spike although vampiric will help with overall pressure. 'Can' and 'will' are important words here. |
Both weapons have advantages and disadvantages. Some of it comes down to player preference or however they choose to justify the superiority of one or the other. Most players are still in favor of Vampiric, I believe.
fenix
Quote:
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Originally Posted by makosi
I think it's worth reiterating that sundering only triggers on attack skills (one fifth of the time) whereas vampiric triggers on every successful hit. A lot of people forget that.
Sundering can aid a concentrated spike although vampiric will help with overall pressure. 'Can' and 'will' are important words here. |
Longasc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by makosi
I think it's worth reiterating that sundering only triggers on attack skills (one fifth of the time) whereas vampiric triggers on every successful hit. A lot of people forget that.
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Seems one person mixed that up!
makosi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Avarre
Vampiric 'can' help with overall pressure, if you aren't being blocked by partywide passive defense. It also 'will' put 2 dps of pressure on your team, which can often be more than your vampiric deals to your opponent.
Both weapons have advantages and disadvantages. Some of it comes down to player preference or however they choose to justify the superiority of one or the other. Most players are still in favor of Vampiric, I believe. |
I think the moral of the story is that weapon swapping > perfect mods, however you interpret it.
fenix
Quote:
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Originally Posted by makosi
Agreed. If I were facing a tainted team who are spreading disease, I'd favour Sundering because it's created tough enough pressure without adding to it.
I think the moral of the story is that weapon swapping > perfect mods, however you interpret it. |
Although, your avatar has a picture of Assassins, which makes me think you don't play much else.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SotiCoto
And for the whole Sundering / Vampiric thing.... Sundering is better on heavier C+Space damage weapons (like Hammers); Vampiric is better on low-damage, high-rate weapons (like Daggers). Problem solved. Now could we please stop arguing about it?
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makosi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fenix
Although, your avatar has a picture of Assassins, which makes me think you don't play much else.
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I understand that extreme blocking causes a nuisance from vampiric weapons because you're losing more than your gaining. I made the comment about Disease as an addition to the anti-vamp arguement because it was clear what Avarre said and it didn't need justification from me.
-1 regeneration is nothing on its own but 4 physicals with vampiric weapons are adding to their own team's pressure especially when there's tonnes of blocking going on too.
In the above situation, with all sorts of degen, I would find it slighltly relieving to switch off the vamp if I was not reaping the benefit of the life-steal. That's all.
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Originally Posted by Scourge`
You can combat the degen from a vamp weapon with mending, that coupled with healing hands = instawin.
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Scourge`
You can combat the degen from a vamp weapon with mending, that coupled with healing hands = instawin.
SotiCoto
Quote:
| Wrong. Everyone seems to be wrong about Sundering. Sundering is good because when it hits, it adds ~25-30 damage extra. BUT, when it hits with a Critical hit, the two add ~50-60 damage on top of your regular hit. That paired with the attack skill damage, can add up to be huge. This means that on a weapon with a high Critical hit (Axe [6-28], Hammer [19-35], Scythe [9-41]), you will be hitting a target for up to 100, and in some cases well OVER 100. THAT is what kills someone. Not an additional 3 or 5 from Vampiric. |
It is always worth remembering though: Sundering doesn't add any extra damage like Vampiric does... but rather bypasses part of the mitigation involved. Characters with more armour effectively have more to lose against Sundering effects (though for the sake of what remains they still take less damage overall).
And I still would like to note that Sundering Dagger Tangs are effectively worthless, not only because standard dagger attacks are so weak anyway... but because Assassin Skill Damage is armour-ignoring anyway. The same goes for other armour-ignoring damage: Sundering shouldn't do anything to it whatsoever.... whereas Vampiric will still add to that.
I will however concede that Sundering is far more effective on a weapon with a very high base damage.
Now.... may we stop arguing PLEASE?
fenix
Quote:
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Originally Posted by makosi
I play all classes.
I understand that extreme blocking causes a nuisance from vampiric weapons because you're losing more than your gaining. I made the comment about Disease as an addition to the anti-vamp arguement because it was clear what Avarre said and it didn't need justification from me. -1 regeneration is nothing on its own but 4 physicals with vampiric weapons are adding to their own team's pressure especially when there's tonnes of blocking going on too. In the above situation, with all sorts of degen, I would find it slighltly relieving to switch off the vamp if I was not reaping the benefit of the life-steal. That's all. |
I understand what you mean by the extra 1 degen, but tbh most in degen teams (or even a Burning Arrow spreading burn/poison), the extra 1 won't make a difference. It's going to be on everyone anyway, so the extra 1 shouldn't matter too much in the long run. By itself, the 1 degen is covered by a Divine Favor heal every 15 seconds or so, which isn't difficult for a monk to do (even easier, an LoD every 45ish seconds would cover it).
If you have several physical damage classes, it's better to have them set up spikes with Sundering, as if they all sundercrit at once, the target is going to explode. Whereas with vampiric, the extra 3-5 will not kill someone, which I've said before.
I spose take a Dervish out to the Dummies, and bash them with JUST a Sundering Scythe. You'll notice that every now and then, your damage will jump up to a MUCH larger one. Pair that with an attack skill like Wearying Strike (30 damage + deep wound), you'll hit the target for a VERY large number (I've done over 120 at certain points, not counting Deep Wound).
makosi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fenix
As for the blocking, I tend to swap to Vamp, as the Life Steal goes through it, so when beating on a target, it can add up over time, which will make a Monk waste energy when I simply need to hit Space. So in that case, the Vamp is good to have as it'll go through the block, and then when the block ends, you can swap to Sundering for a spike.
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fenix
Quote:
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Originally Posted by makosi
I just tried a vampiric hammer against the Master of Enchantments who uses guardian. When my attacks were blocked, the target didn't lose 5 health nor did I gain 5 health.
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Well, it goes through Mist Form, so maybe that's what mixed me up.
Usually I use vampiric when the target is protted anyway, so when my extra damage isn't going to matter. Although, this only applies to Axe/Hammer, with Sword you're better off using Furious to hit things, or Zealous, as it means you can spam the sword skills more.
SotiCoto
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fenix
Usually I use vampiric when the target is protted anyway, so when my extra damage isn't going to matter. Although, this only applies to Axe/Hammer, with Sword you're better off using Furious to hit things, or Zealous, as it means you can spam the sword skills more.
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Zealous for Daggers
Furious or Zealous for Swords
Anything goes for Axes (I like Zealous, personally)
Sundering for Hammers
Sundering for Scythes
... Zealous for Hornbows... on W/Rs .... Snehehe!
Cebe
So I tried working out the math, apologies if this turns out to be a complete fail-fest!
Let's assume a Scythe, with a +15% damage mod, and +20% customised damage.
Let's also assume a 100% critical rate. If I'm correct, this would be:
Sundering:
Sundering has a 1 in 5 chance to do an extra 20% damage. So, for every 5 attacks, 4 will do 78.04 damage, while a fifth should do (78.04 × 25%) = 93.65 damage.
(4 × 78.04) + 93.65 = 405.81 = 81.16 damage per hit on average.
Vampiric:
Vampiric does an unconditional 5 lifesteal every hit:
(5 × 78.04) + (5 × 5) = 415.20 = 83.04 per hit on average.
People have been arguing that Sundering works better on skills. So I decided to take a theoretical look at that as well. Let's think about a Dragon Slash warrior using "For Great Justice!", again, getting a 100% critical hit rate, with 15 attribute points in Swordsmanship, and ignoring the strength attribute.
Sword damage on critical (assume +15% and +20% damage again):
(22 × 35%) × 1.41 = 41.88 damage
Add on additional damage from Dragon Slash:
41.88 + 40 = 81.88
Sundering:
Again, chance of getting +20% AP is one in every 5 hits:
(81.88 × 4) + (81.88 × 20%) = 425.78 = 85.16 damage per hit on average
Vampiric:
(81.88 × 5) + (3 × 5) = 424.4 = 84.88 damage per hit on average
So, on skill use, Sundering wins out, but only just, and if you're using a multitude of skills and you only have a 20% chance for Sundering to come into effect, what's to say it will never activate on Dragon Slash, or Radiant Scythe, or Mighty Throw, and always activate on Sever Artery, or Barbed Spear? I still think that overall Vampiric will win out, since Sundering has a small chance to actually deal that great spike of damage on a high-damage skill.
Sorry if I got any of that wrong btw, if my working out needs correcting, let me know!
At the end of the day, Vampiric is always there, Sundering is based on chance. How lucky are you feeling?
Let's assume a Scythe, with a +15% damage mod, and +20% customised damage.
Let's also assume a 100% critical rate. If I'm correct, this would be:
(41 × 35%) × 1.41 = 78.04
Sundering:
Sundering has a 1 in 5 chance to do an extra 20% damage. So, for every 5 attacks, 4 will do 78.04 damage, while a fifth should do (78.04 × 25%) = 93.65 damage.
(4 × 78.04) + 93.65 = 405.81 = 81.16 damage per hit on average.
Vampiric:
Vampiric does an unconditional 5 lifesteal every hit:
(5 × 78.04) + (5 × 5) = 415.20 = 83.04 per hit on average.
People have been arguing that Sundering works better on skills. So I decided to take a theoretical look at that as well. Let's think about a Dragon Slash warrior using "For Great Justice!", again, getting a 100% critical hit rate, with 15 attribute points in Swordsmanship, and ignoring the strength attribute.
Sword damage on critical (assume +15% and +20% damage again):
(22 × 35%) × 1.41 = 41.88 damage
Add on additional damage from Dragon Slash:
41.88 + 40 = 81.88
Sundering:
Again, chance of getting +20% AP is one in every 5 hits:
(81.88 × 4) + (81.88 × 20%) = 425.78 = 85.16 damage per hit on average
Vampiric:
(81.88 × 5) + (3 × 5) = 424.4 = 84.88 damage per hit on average
So, on skill use, Sundering wins out, but only just, and if you're using a multitude of skills and you only have a 20% chance for Sundering to come into effect, what's to say it will never activate on Dragon Slash, or Radiant Scythe, or Mighty Throw, and always activate on Sever Artery, or Barbed Spear? I still think that overall Vampiric will win out, since Sundering has a small chance to actually deal that great spike of damage on a high-damage skill.
Sorry if I got any of that wrong btw, if my working out needs correcting, let me know!
At the end of the day, Vampiric is always there, Sundering is based on chance. How lucky are you feeling?
fenix
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
So I tried working out the math, apologies if this turns out to be a complete fail-fest!
Let's assume a Scythe, with a +15% damage mod, and +20% customised damage. Let's also assume a 100% critical rate. If I'm correct, this would be: (41 × 35%) × 1.41 = 78.04 Sundering: Sundering has a 1 in 5 chance to do an extra 20% damage. So, for every 5 attacks, 4 will do 78.04 damage, while a fifth should do (78.04 × 25%) = 93.65 damage. (4 × 78.04) + 93.65 = 405.81 = 81.16 damage per hit on average. Vampiric: Vampiric does an unconditional 5 lifesteal every hit: (5 × 78.04) + (5 × 5) = 415.20 = 83.04 per hit on average. People have been arguing that Sundering works better on skills. So I decided to take a theoretical look at that as well. Let's think about a Dragon Slash warrior using "For Great Justice!", again, getting a 100% critical hit rate, with 15 attribute points in Swordsmanship, and ignoring the strength attribute. Sword damage on critical (assume +15% and +20% damage again): (22 × 35%) × 1.41 = 41.88 damage Add on additional damage from Dragon Slash: 41.88 + 40 = 81.88 Sundering: Again, chance of getting +20% AP is one in every 5 hits: (81.88 × 4) + (81.88 × 20%) = 425.78 = 85.16 damage per hit Vampiric: (81.88 × 5) + (3 × 5) = 424.4 = 84.88 damage per hit So, on skill use, Sundering wins out, but only just, and if you're using a multitude of skills and you only have a 20% chance for Sundering to come into effect, what's to say it will never activate on Dragon Slash, or Radiant Scythe, or Mighty Throw, and always activate on Sever Artery, or Barbed Spear? I still think that overall Vampiric will win out, since Sundering has a small chance to actually deal that great spike of damage on a high-damage skill. Sorry if I got any of that wrong btw, if my working out needs correcting, let me know! At the end of the day, Vampiric is always there, Sundering is based on chance. How lucky are you feeling? |
The sundercrit with a Scythe (93.65) is sexy when you add on a 30 from Wearying, and a deep wound. Take a target down a whole 250 health with 1 skill.
Savio
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
So I tried working out the math, apologies if this turns out to be a complete fail-fest!
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2. You get +38% damage from 15% and customization. The damage mods multiply.
3. You neglected the weapon mastery factor, which should make the numbers a bit higher. At 14 Scythe Mastery, the crit is 86 and the sundercrit is 106.
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Originally Posted by fenix
Sundering is good because when it hits, it adds ~25-30 damage extra. BUT, when it hits with a Critical hit, the two add ~50-60 damage on top of your regular hit.
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
As for the Sundering debate, everyone is throwing opinions around, but noone is providing any numbers.
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Government Flu
My opinion is this:
There are three categories mods will fit into. Number one are perfect mods. Whether it's the famous 15^50% or a 15% while hexed, those mods are considered perfect because they don't go any higher. Number two are imperfect mods. Obvious examples include +29HP staff wrappings, 20/18 sundering, and so forth. Then there are the most sought after mods.
These most likely became the most sought after because many green weapons carried them, and so the definition of a perfect weapon became: Gold color, same req. as a green weapon, rare skin, and same stats as green weapons, be it zealous with 15^50 or sundering with +30HP.
If you're serious about a particular character, you'll have all kinds of weapons to use in many different situations. Take my warrior for example, my primary character. I've branched her out into not only high class PvE but also competitive PvP and she has multiple builds and many weapons to choose from.
While a furious axe may do in one situation, if I already have a skill that builds up more adrenaline to begin with, I may go for sundering or an elemental mod because that'll give me a better edge.
There are three categories mods will fit into. Number one are perfect mods. Whether it's the famous 15^50% or a 15% while hexed, those mods are considered perfect because they don't go any higher. Number two are imperfect mods. Obvious examples include +29HP staff wrappings, 20/18 sundering, and so forth. Then there are the most sought after mods.
These most likely became the most sought after because many green weapons carried them, and so the definition of a perfect weapon became: Gold color, same req. as a green weapon, rare skin, and same stats as green weapons, be it zealous with 15^50 or sundering with +30HP.
If you're serious about a particular character, you'll have all kinds of weapons to use in many different situations. Take my warrior for example, my primary character. I've branched her out into not only high class PvE but also competitive PvP and she has multiple builds and many weapons to choose from.
While a furious axe may do in one situation, if I already have a skill that builds up more adrenaline to begin with, I may go for sundering or an elemental mod because that'll give me a better edge.
Cebe
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Originally Posted by Savio
1. Armor penetration doesn't apply to +damage, you add +damage in after factoring AP. Sundering with attack skills just means you get gobs of damage in one hit.
2. You get +38% damage from 15% and customization. The damage mods multiply. 3. You neglected the weapon mastery factor, which should make the numbers a bit higher. At 14 Scythe Mastery, the crit is 86 and the sundercrit is 106. |
2. >.< I knew that really
3. This still leaves vampiric on top though? Just...the gap closes a bit.