Avatar of Balthazar
~ Dan ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikarp
the best derv skills are AoM, VoS, and EDA.
I wouldn't consider VoS to be one of the best derv skills. There are many elites i'd choose instead. But when speccing earth, Mystic Regen is pretty much a staple skill.
There is also a reason why mm's and fire eles take the skill.
There is also a reason why mm's and fire eles take the skill.
iridescentfyre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikarp
are you serious? OF tanks are fantastic and always have been.. what game do you play?
The issue was not that OF tanks are inferior to, say, other tanking builds. The problem is that tanking is a pointless waste of time. PvE isn't hard enough to justify it.
Burst Cancel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside
That's just the point I made earlier adding a couple defensive skills doesn't hurt the offensive strength of most dervish builds! I can still maintain high dps despite the fact that I'm using Great Dwarf Armor + Mystic Regeneration. Removing those two skills and adding two attack skills won't be improving my damage output.
The only build I use where I have any space on the skillbar is Vow of Strength builds, which have 3+ optional slots and are specced into Earth Prayers anyway. In that case, bring defense if you want; it's not like there's anything else to bring. For everything else, I never have any room. For instance:
Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)
There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.
And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.
In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.
And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team.
Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)
There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.
And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.
In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.
And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team.
Magikarp
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
I wouldn't consider VoS to be one of the best derv skills. There are many elites i'd choose instead. But when speccing earth, Mystic Regen is pretty much a staple skill.
There is also a reason why mm's and fire eles take the skill. i was talking about derv elites, sorry... and im not fan of mys regen.
and to fyre, im aware tanks are pretty much useless, but if you're going to use one, use the best. either OF or AoM. thats just my take on it. the only time i've ever even played the role or pure "tank" was in the first few weeks of DoA, where we were all trying to decipher good set ups, and my guild was afraid of party wipes. i refuse to play such a waste of a team slots role, so now we just run balanced damage specs like everyone else.
if this is still on subject, AoB just isn't good enough to justify it as an elite. not when its just mocking sentinal warriors or WY!'ers.
party wide utility=synergy and good team play. thats why shouts are so darn good.
There is also a reason why mm's and fire eles take the skill. i was talking about derv elites, sorry... and im not fan of mys regen.
and to fyre, im aware tanks are pretty much useless, but if you're going to use one, use the best. either OF or AoM. thats just my take on it. the only time i've ever even played the role or pure "tank" was in the first few weeks of DoA, where we were all trying to decipher good set ups, and my guild was afraid of party wipes. i refuse to play such a waste of a team slots role, so now we just run balanced damage specs like everyone else.
if this is still on subject, AoB just isn't good enough to justify it as an elite. not when its just mocking sentinal warriors or WY!'ers.
party wide utility=synergy and good team play. thats why shouts are so darn good.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikarp
are you serious? OF tanks are fantastic and always have been.. what game do you play?
Tanks are horrible. What game do you play?
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
The only build I use where I have any space on the skillbar is Vow of Strength builds, which have 3+ optional slots and are specced into Earth Prayers anyway. In that case, bring defense if you want; it's not like there's anything else to bring. For everything else, I never have any room. For instance:
Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)
There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.
And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.
In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.
And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team. maybe thats because that build is actually VERY powerful?
could fit in a little of the old faithful intervention though...
Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)
There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.
And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.
In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.
And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team. maybe thats because that build is actually VERY powerful?
could fit in a little of the old faithful intervention though...
~ Dan ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
The only build I use where I have any space on the skillbar is Vow of Strength builds, which have 3+ optional slots and are specced into Earth Prayers anyway. In that case, bring defense if you want; it's not like there's anything else to bring. For everything else, I never have any room. For instance:
Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)
There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. Everybody knows that lyssa is all about your DPS, and that you take no defense on a lyssa bar. This proves nothing. You also should run eremites, mystic AND protector's, not either/or which free's up a slot by replacing the IAS. But that's a discussion for some other time..
Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)
There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. Everybody knows that lyssa is all about your DPS, and that you take no defense on a lyssa bar. This proves nothing. You also should run eremites, mystic AND protector's, not either/or which free's up a slot by replacing the IAS. But that's a discussion for some other time..
Darkside
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
The only build I use where I have any space on the skillbar is Vow of Strength builds, which have 3+ optional slots and are specced into Earth Prayers anyway. In that case, bring defense if you want; it's not like there's anything else to bring. For everything else, I never have any room. For instance:
Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)
There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.
And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.
In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.
And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team. Here's an example of one of the builds I run
Scythe Mastery - 13 (12+1)
Earth Prayers - 8
Mysticism - 12 (11+1)
The reason for those stats are to meet certain breakpoints. 8 in earth prayers for +3 mystic regen and for when I run vital boon, or some other earth prayers skills and mysticism at 12 for the energy gain from enchantment removal.
1.Great Dwarf Armor
2.Avatar of Lyssa
3.Mystic Regeneration
4.Eternal Aura
5.Aura of Holy Might
6.Heart of Fury
7.Resurrection Signet
8.Optional
So I get +24 armor and +60 life from Dwarf armor which lowers the damage I receive and as a bonus gives me +60 life (I find it to be a good mix of conviction and vital boon but only takes up one skill slot, not to mention that one enchantment alone in combination with the insignias on my armor gives me over 100 ar). Avatar of Lyssa for the extra damage to foes activating skills and for the extra energy to put up my high cost enchantments. Mystic Regeneration works well with this build because of all the enchantments so its an easy way to self heal. Eternal Aura lets me maintain Lyssa indefinitely, does 100 Damage (max sunspear rank) to all nearby foes, and recharges my other enchantments. Aura of Holy might gives me a little more kick on attack and heart of fury increases my attack speed. That leaves me one optional slot for whatever I need and a res. Or two optional slots if I don't take a res on my skill bar and bring a scroll of resurrection. I've not scarified damage and can heal myself quite well.
Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)
There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.
And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.
In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.
And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team. Here's an example of one of the builds I run
Scythe Mastery - 13 (12+1)
Earth Prayers - 8
Mysticism - 12 (11+1)
The reason for those stats are to meet certain breakpoints. 8 in earth prayers for +3 mystic regen and for when I run vital boon, or some other earth prayers skills and mysticism at 12 for the energy gain from enchantment removal.
1.Great Dwarf Armor
2.Avatar of Lyssa
3.Mystic Regeneration
4.Eternal Aura
5.Aura of Holy Might
6.Heart of Fury
7.Resurrection Signet
8.Optional
So I get +24 armor and +60 life from Dwarf armor which lowers the damage I receive and as a bonus gives me +60 life (I find it to be a good mix of conviction and vital boon but only takes up one skill slot, not to mention that one enchantment alone in combination with the insignias on my armor gives me over 100 ar). Avatar of Lyssa for the extra damage to foes activating skills and for the extra energy to put up my high cost enchantments. Mystic Regeneration works well with this build because of all the enchantments so its an easy way to self heal. Eternal Aura lets me maintain Lyssa indefinitely, does 100 Damage (max sunspear rank) to all nearby foes, and recharges my other enchantments. Aura of Holy might gives me a little more kick on attack and heart of fury increases my attack speed. That leaves me one optional slot for whatever I need and a res. Or two optional slots if I don't take a res on my skill bar and bring a scroll of resurrection. I've not scarified damage and can heal myself quite well.
Burst Cancel
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
As for the build itself, you can vary the attack set depending on what you need. If I run all three fast attacks and remove the IAS, I replace the IAS with one of the utility skills I listed. So no, there's no free slots - and no free attribute points.
I take Victorious Sweep because of the unconditional +29 damage bonus, which allows me to do good damage even when they aren't activating skills, and gives me an aggregate +73 when they are. You'll note that Mystic Sweep is +20 at best (when AoHM and EA are both up), and will most often be +10 only, since EA is only up 10s out of 30s. Prot Strike basically has no damage bonus. Eremite's goes from +10 to +30 conditional on the number of adjacent allies, which is unreliable.
The main point of those skills is to compress a lot of hits into your opponent's skill activation window, not necessarily to serve as your primary means of attack. If spammed, Prot Strike will cost you 5e/3.5s = 1.43e/s, and Mystic/Eremite's cost you 1.05e/s each. Total, that's a 3.53e/s drain, countered by only 1.33e/s regen. And that's not taking into account recasting Aura of Holy Might and Eternal Aura. Even with the +20e from Lyssa you can't keep this kind of attack spam up for that long.
In contrast, bringing the IAS increases the DPS of your normal hits, allows you to bring skills with unconditional damage bonus without significant speed penalty, and still retains the benefits of damage compression during the activation window.
Re Darkside: Contrary to your assertion, you are sacrificing damage. From an attribute standpoint, you lose a point in scythe, which lowers your critical hit chance and base damage rating, and you lose a point in mysticism, which is 3 less damage per hit on Lyssa. More significantly however, you don't have any attack skills, and your speed boost is only up 2/3rds of the time.
EDIT: This is getting really off-topic. If no one has an inclination to argue this further (I know I'm losing interest), I vote we stop here.
~ Dan ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
Quote:
Like who?|
EDIT: This is getting really off-topic. If no one has an inclination to argue this further (I know I'm losing interest), I vote we stop here.
Your very first post was off-topic. You found the wrong thread i'm afraid..
Burst Cancel
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
|
(emphasis added)
|
Your very first post was off-topic. You found the wrong thread i'm afraid..
Baseless accusation. My first post dealt with AoB and why the +40AL was worthless. I also addressed the issue of why Dwayna's wasn't a good recommendation - a recommendation that someone else had made earlier in the thread. The fact that you're clearly ill-mannered makes me even less inclined to discuss this further. ~ Dan ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
By definition: a) Offensive build = offensive skills b) Defensive build = defensive skills c) Balanced build = mixed This isn't about Lyssa. My entire point was that options b) and c) are pointless with a monk backline. Way to totally miss the issue. |
Mine (and other's) entire point is that self heal isn't pointless with a monk backline. Period.
|
The fact that you're clearly ill-mannered makes me even less inclined to discuss this further.
The fact that your clearly arrogant, and think your opinion = fact, makes me even less inclined to discuss this further.
Burst Cancel
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
|
You haven't successfully argued that point. Accordingly, there is no "Period". Let me sum up your argument:
|
The fact that your clearly arrogant, and think your opinion = fact, makes me even less inclined to discuss this further.
I've done nothing but make supported arguments. If that makes me arrogant, then okay, I'm arrogant. At least I'm civil. Anyway, I'm done with this. As Whiskey stated earlier, I'm sure you'd continue to espouse the virtues of insignificant defense skills regardless of any evidence to the contrary, so pursuing this further is simply fruitless.
Quicksilver Switch-Blade
Burst Cancel is right, but arguing that you cant use some build is moot since anything works in PvE, only difference is efficiency. Efficiency wise, why would you use a Dervish's self heal with a cap at 20hp per second when LoD (I think this skill should be nerfed and rit party heals and other prof self heals need to be brought up, but thats for a different day) can practically do that, and for 5 energy, and do it for the whole party; Not to mention it takes up valuable slots and att points which could be used to improve your damage. Conviction, while Ive used it in my VoS build (don't like specing into 4 att lines for tactics), WY and SY is a better choice because of the party aspect if you want defense. /W is needed for some Utility that is lacking (Wild Blow, Distracting Blow, Flail), don't know why a Derv doesn't have it, its needed for a melee class to be effective, but.........
Heart of Fury is a decent IAS, but flail beats it even with no strength. Now, I normally use Hench Heroes with my derv, so I tend to run my VoS high defense build, while retaining some decent DPS, since the AI likes to go after human players in the first place, I draw aggro, and my monks don't have LoD (Henchies, my heroes are offensive minded), so self-defense is almost required to survive, but, in an all human group (which is what I think you guys are arguing about), with ppl who at least know what they're doing, a Derv going full offensive is more effective then one diverting to carry some self defense, unless your healers are incompetent, but I digress. Prot Spirit, SY, TNTF, and LoD make self-defense no where close to being needed on any other party member imo. Dervs don't have room for self defense until there is something decent within the mysticism line for self-healing (faithful is lame, vigor is lame, balth rage is unreliable, meditation can remove prot spirit if not careful, watchful is good, but it isnt self defense at that point). If you are utilizing the wind or earth prayers for self defense, your sacrificing potential damage, again, because you are sacrificing skill slots and att points. AoM is the only self defense skill that is good (and then some, well, in PvP), but AI doesn't always pressure the melee with conditions like you would see in PvP, so a monk with some decent cond removal can usually keep you up and running in PvE.
jesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside
1.Great Dwarf Armor
2.Avatar of Lyssa 3.Mystic Regeneration 4.Eternal Aura 5.Aura of Holy Might 6.Heart of Fury 7.Resurrection Signet 8.Optional I just wanted to point out that there's no attack skills on here. Mmkay, that's all.
Sir Pandra Pierva
lol Guru is arrogent. also AoD is fun to use with victorious sweep. Defense is still good even when you use monks. If you are a front liner you should always use a defensive skill. It helps to keep pressure off of monks if your tank decides to go aggro every living thing in world.
Darkside
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesh
I just wanted to point out that there's no attack skills on here. Mmkay, that's all.
Wow good eye brainwave. I have two optional slots since I don't normally run a res. Those two spots are for my attack skills. Also with the build in question you don't need many attack skills since Aura of Holy Might in combination with Heart of Fury make your normal attacks do a lot of damage very quickly.
Str0b0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver Switch-Blade
Burst Cancel is right, but arguing that you cant use some build is moot since anything works in PvE, only difference is efficiency. Efficiency wise, why would you use a Dervish's self heal with a cap at 20hp per second when LoD (I think this skill should be nerfed and rit party heals and other prof self heals need to be brought up, but thats for a different day) can practically do that, and for 5 energy, and do it for the whole party; Not to mention it takes up valuable slots and att points which could be used to improve your damage.
The reason to run balanced builds as opposed to flat out offensive builds is that I have yet to meet any monk or two monks competent enough to handle a front line. It's always an energy issue or they move to the mid line and fux the aggro up so it breaks off the front and then they get killed and they yell at you for not holding aggro and blah blah blah. It's just a lot easier for me to avoid all that failure and run a balanced build instead of loading up on offensive skills and hoping for the best. So while in theory all of Burst Cancel's points are valid in practice it is rare to find a monk capable enough to handle you without self healing.
Sir Pandra Pierva
In pve
Balance>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offensive>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Defensive
Magikarp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver Switch-Blade
Burst Cancel is right, but arguing that you cant use some build is moot since anything works in PvE, only difference is efficiency. Efficiency wise, why would you use a Dervish's self heal with a cap at 20hp per second when LoD (I think this skill should be nerfed and rit party heals and other prof self heals need to be brought up, but thats for a different day) can practically do that, and for 5 energy, and do it for the whole party; Not to mention it takes up valuable slots and att points which could be used to improve your damage. Conviction, while Ive used it in my VoS build (don't like specing into 4 att lines for tactics), WY and SY is a better choice because of the party aspect if you want defense. /W is needed for some Utility that is lacking (Wild Blow, Distracting Blow, Flail), don't know why a Derv doesn't have it, its needed for a melee class to be effective, but.........
Heart of Fury is a decent IAS, but flail beats it even with no strength. i can barely remember what this thread is about lol.. but this is the best description of why earth/wind healing dervs fail to the epic level imo. self healing like no tomorrow, could survive a nuclear fall out if need be as long as its not direct constant damage, the derv can hold its own for a while, but sacrifces only having one or two attack skills, and ZERO team utility, where as warriors, paragons, and rangers offer tons of team based utility skills whether it be shouts, chants, spirits ect. even sins do with their ability to kill dangerous targets quickly, to defer further mega-damage. other than imbue, imo, dervs lack almost any team quality.... oh.. and EDA. but thats just my opinion 
~ Dan ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikarp
i can barely remember what this thread is about lol.. but this is the best description of why earth/wind healing dervs fail to the epic level imo. self healing like no tomorrow, could survive a nuclear fall out if need be as long as its not direct constant damage, the derv can hold its own for a while, but sacrifces only having one or two attack skills, and ZERO team utility, where as warriors, paragons, and rangers offer tons of team based utility skills whether it be shouts, chants, spirits ect. even sins do with their ability to kill dangerous targets quickly, to defer further mega-damage. other than imbue, imo, dervs lack almost any team quality.... oh.. and EDA. but thats just my opinion
A sin is more of a team player than a derv? Wow. Just, wow....
candyman_sb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikarp
other than imbue dervs lack almost any team quality.... oh.. and EDA.
Sorry but you fail.
Magikarp
then name some skills dervs offer for team utility that still allow them to attack. saying i "fail" without reason is just trolling. warriors have team shouts, paras are obvious, rangers have spirits, snares, and blind skills, sins have hexs and snares, not to mention the utility of target dropping.. what do dervs do? they save themselves most of the time. im not saying they arent good at killing, they just dont do it with the team. they run in and dont have as much armor or overall prowess as a warrior, so their backline needs to watch them more, making them a liability with both melee and spells/enchants.
~ Dan ~
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
then name some skills dervs offer for team utility that still allow them to attack. saying i "fail" without reason is just trolling. warriors have team shouts, paras are obvious, rangers have spirits, snares, and blind skills, sins have hexs and snares, not to mention the utility of target dropping.. what do dervs do? they save themselves most of the time. im not saying they arent good at killing, they just dont do it with the team. they run in and dont have as much armor or overall prowess as a warrior, so their backline needs to watch them more, making them a liability with both melee and spells/enchants.
Considering they have self heals instead of extra armour i don't see how your point about backlines needing to watch them more is valid. Anyhow, seeing as your profession is "W/" i expected this kind of opinion on the dervish.
You mention "without having to stop attacking" but yet suggest ranger spirits and sin hexing are viable? Well then watchful intervention, the entire pious renewal / arcane zeal support healer build, mystic healing.. there may be more but these were off the top of my head. If you want to find out about what derv's offer to teams.. hell look around this forum. If not, shut up, because this thread has gone way off topic. .. AoB gogo! Str0b0
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
i can barely remember what this thread is about lol.. but this is the best description of why earth/wind healing dervs fail to the epic level imo. self healing like no tomorrow, could survive a nuclear fall out if need be as long as its not direct constant damage, the derv can hold its own for a while, but sacrifces only having one or two attack skills, and ZERO team utility, where as warriors, paragons, and rangers offer tons of team based utility skills whether it be shouts, chants, spirits ect. even sins do with their ability to kill dangerous targets quickly, to defer further mega-damage. other than imbue, imo, dervs lack almost any team quality.... oh.. and EDA. but thats just my opinion
The average derv bar has at least three attack skills. I know I never run less than three. If you run less than three you don't have a balanced build you have a tragedy. As far as team utility I've said it once and I'll say it again, it is not the front line's job to buff the team. Yeah the warrior has shouts and stuff but by and large these never even reach the party since a warrior's place is on the front line. It is your support classes, you know monks and ritualists and paragons, job to buff the party. A Dervishes job is to kill things quick. The difference between an assassin and a dervish is that a dervish is designed to take out three targets at a time, the assassin is not but they fullfill the same function. If you want to buff and heal the party other classes have the ability to do it better, rarely the talent but the ability,but it is stupid for you to expect a class that is not designed to do those things to do it. Here's a thought, since all characters apparently must have party wide utility then why bother even having the other professions for secondary? Why not just make everyone's secondary monk? Then they can spam prot and heal skills that they don't have the energy for and generally fail at doing their job. As far as lacking the prowess and being a liability? Ummm warriors fail all the time, my dervish rarely dies. I take care of myself without the need for backline attention and in the unfortunate situation of a party wipe I'm usually the last one standing and can finish off the remaining enemy and then res.
candyman_sb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
they run in and dont have as much armor or overall prowess as a warrior, so their backline needs to watch them more, making them a liability with both melee and spells/enchants.
Probably you also fail to make a balanced derv build with decent survival and offense. The only defense a derv needs in pve is conviction and mystic regen to be decent and can still take lots of offensive skills + some utility like mending touch, cripling sweep, wild blow etc.
Chicken Ftw
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Originally Posted by candyman_sb
The only defense a derv needs in pve is monks that don't fail at GW
fix'd.
12chars
Magikarp
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Considering they have self heals instead of extra armour i don't see how your point about backlines needing to watch them more is valid. Anyhow, seeing as your profession is "W/" i expected this kind of opinion on the dervish. You mention "without having to stop attacking" but yet suggest ranger spirits and sin hexing are viable? Well then watchful intervention, the entire pious renewal / arcane zeal support healer build, mystic healing.. there may be more but these were off the top of my head. If you want to find out about what derv's offer to teams.. hell look around this forum. If not, shut up, because this thread has gone way off topic. |
i know what dervs offer to teams, i see all the top gvgs and ha matches just like everyone else, but it think the dervish player community trying to compare them to warriors is absurd. different play styles and .. its just goes on and on. my post was to be in debate of the AoB junk from earlier, and wasnt to say dervs suck, but that their utility when using builds like that is minimal to none. i rather have team players than a guy with msy regen, aob, watchful, vigor, and conviction on the same bar.. not to mention almost never bringing a res.
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Your post sounds more like derv bashing. Why? Because you say dervs offer shit support and that sins can support better(how?). Don't tell me that dps=support.
Probably you also fail to make a balanced derv build with decent survival and offense. The only defense a derv needs in pve is conviction and mystic regen to be decent and can still take lots of offensive skills + some utility like mending touch, cripling sweep, wild blow etc. one, you dont know me, two, i have a derv, three, i dont play derv like how any of you have described. i play dervish primarily in PvP, so you to say im "bashing" the class, when i play the class, makes me do nothing more than laugh. most of the best pvp derv builds use little self healing, and more importantly, create the effective use of their better skill line. btw "lots" of utility skills doesnt include the only skill a derv primary has offensively, crippling sweep. take rending touch, rending sweep, and wounding if you want the bit of good skills scythe mastery has. wild blow, and various secondary skills aside, the dervish is either full offensive, not so offensive but can heal, or full heal/support. you cant have it all. in pve, play anything for all i care, you still wont be that great if you're filling your bar with 50 heals and static enchants.
oh, and AoB still sucks.
Probably you also fail to make a balanced derv build with decent survival and offense. The only defense a derv needs in pve is conviction and mystic regen to be decent and can still take lots of offensive skills + some utility like mending touch, cripling sweep, wild blow etc. one, you dont know me, two, i have a derv, three, i dont play derv like how any of you have described. i play dervish primarily in PvP, so you to say im "bashing" the class, when i play the class, makes me do nothing more than laugh. most of the best pvp derv builds use little self healing, and more importantly, create the effective use of their better skill line. btw "lots" of utility skills doesnt include the only skill a derv primary has offensively, crippling sweep. take rending touch, rending sweep, and wounding if you want the bit of good skills scythe mastery has. wild blow, and various secondary skills aside, the dervish is either full offensive, not so offensive but can heal, or full heal/support. you cant have it all. in pve, play anything for all i care, you still wont be that great if you're filling your bar with 50 heals and static enchants.
oh, and AoB still sucks.
~ Dan ~
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
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Oh, but your comment in that thread bashing derv's is relevant.
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they just have a major design flaw imo with their class. they can be countered at every turn in more ways than any other class (if you play balanced).
Shutting down a derv is not so simple as saying "we have a counter". I hope you come to realise this some day. Quote:
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