Avatar of Balthazar
moko
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Originally Posted by iridescentfyre
Also its interesting to note that Dervish and Paragon have exactly the same number of skills and exactly the same number of those are elites. Obviously that was intentional, so its likely some are simply "filler."
so, they could've left AoB and "The Power Is Yours!" out. -2 trash elites and it remains the same number. 
t00115577
There is no discussion here, AoB is crap
Infact most of the avatars are crap with the exception of Dwayna (pve) and Melandru (pvp) and only whammos use them. Other Dervish elites are much better.
Well my opinion anyway, but i hate dervishs so i prob dont know how good other avatars are.
Infact most of the avatars are crap with the exception of Dwayna (pve) and Melandru (pvp) and only whammos use them. Other Dervish elites are much better.
Well my opinion anyway, but i hate dervishs so i prob dont know how good other avatars are.
Coloneh
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Originally Posted by t00115577
Well my opinion anyway, but i hate dervishs so i prob dont know how good other avatars are.
please dont bother posting if you have no experience with the class. I keep my nose out of the Paragon and mesmer sections, keep yours out of dervish.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by t00115577
and only whammos use them.
i use avatar of lyssa/melandru/dwayna....does that make me a wammo then?
Coloneh
no, he said in the next sentence he dosnt know dervs.
Darkside
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Originally Posted by t00115577
There is no discussion here, AoB is crap
Infact most of the avatars are crap with the exception of Dwayna (pve) and Melandru (pvp) and only whammos use them. Other Dervish elites are much better.
Well my opinion anyway, but i hate dervishs so i prob dont know how good other avatars are. Lol... are you for real?
Infact most of the avatars are crap with the exception of Dwayna (pve) and Melandru (pvp) and only whammos use them. Other Dervish elites are much better.
Well my opinion anyway, but i hate dervishs so i prob dont know how good other avatars are. Lol... are you for real?
angmar_nite
Avatar of Lyssa is definitely my favourite. Pity it's so ugly. But the spikes you can deal, and the energy pool... wow. It's pretty nice.
Dean Harper
I personally cant think of AoB as good in any way. AoL and AoM are MUCH better skills.
Str0b0
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Originally Posted by Dean Harper
I personally cant think of AoB as good in any way. AoL and AoM are MUCH better skills.
You want to hear the sad thing there? I've noticed that the majority of dervish players posting here have said AoB is crap and recommended viable alternatives to it and yet somehow people keep sneaking AoB into groups and people allow it. I've gotten to the point where I will flat out kick anyone using AoB in a group on general principle and I have yet to regret it since nine out of ten times they are running some horrible tanking build that screws the damage output of the entire party. I'm glad that a lot of dervishes know the truth and know what works and what doesn't but it boggles my mind that so many more don't.
I wonder if there are threads like this on other fansites. I wonder if the other fansite derv players are aware that AoB sucks or if I were to go to another fansite would I see the derv build forum full of crappy AoB tanking builds? I ask because obviously someone, somewhere is telling people that AoB is not only viable but more useful than the other avatars in PvE and that sort of misinformation deserves to be stamped out.
I suppose I should be grateful for the few who do know though and I can only hope that in time people will realize,"Hey this sucks." I won't hold my breathe though. Too many people picked up the dervish because of the scythe and hood and then with AoB you get to turn into this big nasty looking creature with horns and armor and such. I can see how that would appeal to the fashion derv.
I wonder if there are threads like this on other fansites. I wonder if the other fansite derv players are aware that AoB sucks or if I were to go to another fansite would I see the derv build forum full of crappy AoB tanking builds? I ask because obviously someone, somewhere is telling people that AoB is not only viable but more useful than the other avatars in PvE and that sort of misinformation deserves to be stamped out.
I suppose I should be grateful for the few who do know though and I can only hope that in time people will realize,"Hey this sucks." I won't hold my breathe though. Too many people picked up the dervish because of the scythe and hood and then with AoB you get to turn into this big nasty looking creature with horns and armor and such. I can see how that would appeal to the fashion derv.
~ Dan ~
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Originally Posted by Str0b0
Sir Pandra Pierva went from this:
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But but... Didn't Paragons lose another elite as soon as Nightfall came out?|
I use AoB to run droks a lot. Other than running I am now starting to find that it is nothing more than a nub skill all together.
It is working, it is working..
Cebe
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Originally Posted by Mokone
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Originally Posted by t00115577
Infact most of the avatars are crap with the exception of Dwayna (pve) and Melandru (pvp) and only whammos use them.
Ok, first off, it's 'Wammo'...spell it right.
Next up, clearly you've not used Avatars, or if you have, you've used them badly. I used to think "meh, they're just gimmicky nonsense" when Nightfall came out, but no. I was wrong. With a little "training" I was showed the way of the Avatar Dervish...conveniently ignoring Avatar of Balthazar of course. The Avatars are not only used by Wammos, but unfortunately, a number of people do use them badly, creating the stereotype you currently hold.
Sir Pandra Pierva
That build I posted I made when NF first came out, but I found it starts to work better with AoD. But overall now adays I stay away from avatar dervs I have just found I prefer the other derv elites other than the avatars, they are good for things but I have just come not to use them.
Str0b0
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Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva
That build I posted I made when NF first came out, but I found it starts to work better with AoD. But overall now adays I stay away from avatar dervs I have just found I prefer the other derv elites other than the avatars, they are good for things but I have just come not to use them.
Good man. I'm glad to hear that you are checking out some of the other elites. My personal favorite has been and always will be EDA. I lurve it so much that my Torment Scythe is ebon.
~ Dan ~
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Originally Posted by Str0b0
Good man. I'm glad to hear that you are checking out some of the other elites. My personal favorite has been and always will be EDA. I lurve it so much that my Torment Scythe is ebon.
Mine too
 You get the best of both worlds really. Whilst shutting out the melee threats of the opposition you can also deal respectable damage. Just need that torm weapon and i'm done... 
evilseabass
AoB is an AWESOME skill!
It gives my elementalist a reason to take Churning Earth into Random Arenas...
Sirius-NZ
(Yes PSC warning, I know)
First reaction to this thread was to laugh and shake my head, but AoB isn't that good that it really makes a difference anyway. On the other hand, some of the proposed exchanges - especially the 60 armour one for dropping speed - would be really funny if they made it. Firstly, agreed, AoB is a big "don't use" in PvP - because you don't really need any of the buffs. 40 armour? Sure, but it doesn't help against necro spikes, which are the big killers anyway. Conviction reduces ele/warrior damage enough not to be too lethal, and it's cheap. Holy damage doesn't help in PvP, and the speed boost ... you ... don't use a dervish for speed. That's a sin's job, because it can shadow step/cripple the offending fleer anyway. So, with that out of the way, the PvE side of things - yes, it is a general-purpose noob skill. If you don't have any elites, it's an obvious choice. If you do, then more thinking first is advised. Personally, I've seen a lot of use out of AoB, but that's because I ran the vast majority of all three campaigns solo with a triad of searing flames ele heroes, and all they really needed was a solid tank to keep things off them. I realised that AoB, in combination with eternal aura and stoneflesh aura, just will not take any damage in 90% of the game and served the part admirably. Didn't do much of the damage, but when you're backed up by SF spammers you don't really need to. My own take on the collection of buffs: Speed: Agreed, it's effectively useless. It saw *marginal* use trying to intercept stuff that was attacking the eles/monks, but it's not something I couldn't do without. Armour: Obvious. +40 armour halves damage from most sources - except flat damage, which mainly happens from necros and degen. Fairly good, substantially better than conviction and really anything reasonable except armour of earth ... and it's a lot faster than AoE... Holy damage: Yeah, I know what everyone thinks about it, and it's not that great at all. Well, it wouldn't be except for two things. Firstly, undead take double damage from holy. You don't spend much of the game fighting them though... except in the desolation and realm of torment. I've found holy damage very, very nice to have there. Secondly, almost NOTHING has any extra resistance to holy damage. That's the real kicker in some situations - wurms take very little damage from standard sources... then you try holy damage and it's like they have 60 armour just like everything else. It ignores pretty much everything. (There are of course better ways to kill wurms. haha) The main problem with AoB is that none of these buffs are irreplaceable, and none of them are that stunning either. Conviction may not be as strong, but it's good enough. HoHF does the same thing if you really want holy damage. There is one last point for consideration though; not only does AoB roll them all into one - which may be important depending how cramped your skill bar would be - it is also completely impossible to strip the effects. That's something HoHF, conviction, whatever... don't have. You can pull the enchantments off, break the stances, etc ... but you can't remove a dervish form. The enemy just has to deal with the half damage, lack of resistances, etc. (Not going to mention speed since even I think it's silly - the few occasions I might want it there's a very nice signet that does exactly the same job when I usually don't need the skill bar space.) What it comes down to, IMHO, is your group. Chances are, they've already got stuff to fulfill all the roles AoB attempts to, and don't need another leeroy character from a class that isn't really meant for it. In this case it's a silly choice - the Dervish has some great special-purpose builds that will help a balanced party, and none of them involve AoB. (One of my favourites at the moment involves AoL with radiant scythe, not surprisingly.) If you're soloing, which usually involves all the mobs rushing your casters like their lives depend on it (which, hey, I guess they do with the SFs) then AoB can actually be very useful. Well, as long as you supplement it with the right skills - AoB won't stop you dying - still have to use some common sense too. But don't expect the damage to be as awesome as you were hoping from a "warrior" form. If that's your meat, try something off-the-wall like sand shards with signet of midnight. The results are *MUCH* more spectacular. Or you could just run a BP build instead, and not have to worry about protecting casters... So, conclusion - AoB Good for: Soloing RoT with SF heroes Bad for: Pretty much everything else (sometimes steps up to "mediocre", see wurms) Re-reading the rest of this thread I suspect this will attract more than a few flames actually *cough* But the OP did ask for opinions, so...
John Panda
in my honest opinion i believe that Avatar Of Balthazar should be buffed in some way <<
draxynnic
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Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ
For what it's worth, though, I think your analysis is right on the ball.
MrFinklestein
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Originally Posted by John Panda
in my honest opinion i believe that Avatar Of Balthazar should be buffed in some way <<
Yes it indeed should be made useful.
Str0b0
No he won't get flamed because he presented his points in a valid manner with supporting evidence that actually makes sense. Consequentially he hasn't said anything that all of us haven't said already. We agree that every buff AoB can offer is useful in very specific instances but the fact that those instances are so specific renders the skill as a whole useless simply because there is no place in the game where you need all three buffs active. So what you get is people using an elite to get just one buff from it and wasting the elite slot when they could have taken another skill and got the same effect and kept an elite slot open.
Whirlwind
I love how everyone talks trash on AoB, then you see so many people running the D/M UW solo build lol...
Div
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Originally Posted by Whirlwind
I love how everyone talks trash on AoB, then you see so many people running the D/M UW solo build lol...
I love how everyone talks trash on Healing breeze, then you see so many people running 55 monks.
Just because it's used in a solo farming build doesn't mean it isn't shit in team builds or everywhere else.
Sirius-NZ
To be honest - drop the 33% run speed and add 33% attack speed instead. Then it would have applications (or better ones).
I found it helpful in Ruins of Morah solo quite recently: Holy damage helps? Check. (Margonites and torment creatures.) Armour boost helps? Check (mostly against Varesh). Speed boost helps? ... well, no it doesn't. Non-removable aspect helps? Definitely (enchantment collapse). Outside of late NF, I can't really think of many places where the holy damage DOES help though... and non-removability isn't terribly useful outside of PvP (please, please don't use AoB in PvP) or this particular mission... It also occurs to me, despite my earlier statement that holy damage doesn't reduce much, there's something else to be aware of: the damage bonus from Avatar of Lyssa doesn't reduce either, and, well, it's actually a bonus. Plus, with the way most dervish attacks work, the *base* damage may get cut, but the *bonus* damage - which is most of the attack - I'm pretty sure doesn't (I have seen Mystic Sweep roll approximately 30 above the damage range I was getting for straight phys attacks, for instance, even when phys was hitting for less than 10). So holy doesn't really matter after all, in most cases - you might as well go for raw attack power and AoL.
SotiCoto
Instant Wammo. Just add Fiery Dragon S.... wait... I mean Saurian Scythe.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Whirlwind
I love how everyone talks trash on AoB, then you see so many people running the D/M UW solo build lol...
[skill]Physical Resistance[/skill]>[skill]avatar of balthazar[/skill]
for soloing UW spiders........... nn for eternal aura,and free elite spot....kinda nifty eh?
Voltar
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Originally Posted by Str0b0
It is not possible to defend AoB by saying, "It's not bad just the other skills of the same type are better." That means it is BAD. It's not rocket science. It is simple English.
Simple English can still be a load of bullshit. All avatars suck. Anet knows this and that's why they kinda gimped out that Sunspear skill.
Everyone knows that AoGrenth is F'ing AWESOME. AoB is just like any other skill, it's good for what it's good for...Undead dungeons in GWEN. This bs about calling an elite the, "PWN," or saying it's, "useless," is something stupid people do when they accidentally click the, "POST REPLY," button. Now that I've aggro'd the entire post I'm going to do what any reasonable person would do and rage-quit. Str0b0
Actually you aggro'd me but your points are not valid in and of themselves. The point is not whether the avatar skills were useless before Eternal Aura. The point is now that we have the ability to permanently keep an avatar up which ones are useful and which ones are useless. AoB is useless. AoL and AoM are great because of universal utility. That's what makes an elite good. If it only has a niche role in PvE then it is useless.
Kwisatz_Haderach
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Originally Posted by Voltar
Now that I've aggro'd the entire post I'm going to do what any reasonable person would do and rage-quit.
Your my hero.
draxynnic
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Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ
It also occurs to me, despite my earlier statement that holy damage doesn't reduce much, there's something else to be aware of: the damage bonus from Avatar of Lyssa doesn't reduce either, and, well, it's actually a bonus. Plus, with the way most dervish attacks work, the *base* damage may get cut, but the *bonus* damage - which is most of the attack - I'm pretty sure doesn't (I have seen Mystic Sweep roll approximately 30 above the damage range I was getting for straight phys attacks, for instance, even when phys was hitting for less than 10).
Correct. Bonus damage is always armour-ignoring except in cases (like the Conjure Element skills and Kindle Arrows) where the skill gives a damage type to the bonus damage.
Coloneh
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Originally Posted by draxynnic
Correct. Bonus damage is always armour-ignoring except in cases (like the Conjure Element skills and Kindle Arrows) where the skill gives a damage type to the bonus damage.
thats not bonus damage. its added damage.
Burst Cancel
They should have just made AoB = Essence of Celerity amirite?!?
I like Lys better then Mel just because of the difference in energy. Karate-chopping my keyboard is what playing melee is all about, and Lyssa gets me the nrg to chop harder. I don't see the point of Dwayna in a team build. Most of the hexes in PvE are totally inconsequential, and anything dangerous can be pulled off by remove/cure/inspired hex. Actually, I've never understood the point of taking defense on the melee in general PvE when you have a monk backline. Which, incidentally, is why even the +40 armor from AoB is pretty ****-worthless. Monk slaps a Spirit Bond on you and LoDs once in a while to mop up ... exactly why did you need that +40 again?
Darkside
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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
They should have just made AoB = Essence of Celerity amirite?!?
I like Lys better then Mel just because of the difference in energy. Karate-chopping my keyboard is what playing melee is all about, and Lyssa gets me the nrg to chop harder. I don't see the point of Dwayna in a team build. Most of the hexes in PvE are totally inconsequential, and anything dangerous can be pulled off by remove/cure/inspired hex. Actually, I've never understood the point of taking defense on the melee in general PvE when you have a monk backline. Which, incidentally, is why even the +40 armor from AoB is pretty ****-worthless. Monk slaps a Spirit Bond on you and LoDs once in a while to mop up ... exactly why did you need that +40 again? You must be one of the lucky ones that always gets a good monk. I've learned from bad experience that monks can never be depended upon. I did a mission the other day using my warrior and I'm pretty certain that monk didn't heal me once the entire mission. I was constantly healing myself and I was glad that I had equipped some self healing. Personally, I think having some self heal on any character is a good idea. At the very least you can take some pressure off the monks by healing yourself a bit when things get bad allowing them to keep other members of the party alive. I'm not saying your entire skill bar should be devoted to self heal...but one or two skills shouldn't impact your dps.
Burst Cancel
I'm not lucky - I just don't PuG.
Defense and healing is fine if you can fit it, but you'll notice that the AoB benefits have basically boiled down to, "well, it gives a permanent +40AL", which is completely inconsequential with a monk behind you and a total waste of the elite slot. Traditional warrior defense elites are nubflags for similar reasons. In my experience (I'm primarily a monk player), self-healing and defense tends to be either unnecessary or insufficient. With few exceptions, if we're being smashed despite PS, SB, SoA, Aegis, LoD, etc., the small heals and slight armor buffs just aren't going to make a significant difference. The main exceptions are things like Watch Yourself, Shields Up, etc., which are party-wide and can be maintained indefinitely with one or two characters. But single-target stuff like Conviction, Mystic Regen, Healing Signet, etc. just doesn't matter. All the big damage is caught by preprotting, and diffuse damage gets mopped up by LoD. Swift Thief
. Running.
Sirius-NZ
I have found conviction + regen useful when taking on 3-4 enemies solo... which I ended up doing in Dunes of Despair once. (Was a bonus capping party - I was holding one of the gates.)
P.S. If AoB was ... say +60 armour, holy damage and 33% IAS, would that be better? Or would +40 be sufficient with the IAS? I figure the idea of the class is to be wammo-ish, but it needs some actual power to do that right. ~ Dan ~
Adding IAS with the armour would just make it overpowered.
Mickey
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Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
Adding IAS with the armour would just make it overpowered.
What's critical agility? Besides a PvE skill.
Adjust the skill to this: +24 armor, holy damage, and 25% IAS. Makes it better, but not overpowered.
Burst Cancel
25% IAS just means everyone dumps it for Flail or something.
You also have to remember that Critical Agility isn't elite, so sins are still free to take things like Moebius strike and have a free "Look, I'm a *real* frontliner now" buff on top of that. If Crit Agility were elite, a lot of people would be thinking twice before slotting it. A combined IAS and armor buff usually isn't going to be worth the elite slot. Imagine if Soldier's Stance had an armor buff built-in. Would warriors suddenly be taking that over their current elites? No. Whiskeyjack
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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
I'm not lucky - I just don't PuG.
Defense and healing is fine if you can fit it, but you'll notice that the AoB benefits have basically boiled down to, "well, it gives a permanent +40AL", which is completely inconsequential with a monk behind you and a total waste of the elite slot. Traditional warrior defense elites are nubflags for similar reasons. In my experience (I'm primarily a monk player), self-healing and defense tends to be either unnecessary or insufficient. With few exceptions, if we're being smashed despite PS, SB, SoA, Aegis, LoD, etc., the small heals and slight armor buffs just aren't going to make a significant difference. The main exceptions are things like Watch Yourself, Shields Up, etc., which are party-wide and can be maintained indefinitely with one or two characters. But single-target stuff like Conviction, Mystic Regen, Healing Signet, etc. just doesn't matter. All the big damage is caught by preprotting, and diffuse damage gets mopped up by LoD. This post sum's it up perfectly imo, I dont PUG often, but when i do i would treat an AoB derv exatly the same as i would a healing hands Wammo- a liability and therefore kicked.
Mickey
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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
25% IAS just means everyone dumps it for Flail or something.
You also have to remember that Critical Agility isn't elite, so sins are still free to take things like Moebius strike and have a free "Look, I'm a *real* frontliner now" buff on top of that. If Crit Agility were elite, a lot of people would be thinking twice before slotting it. A combined IAS and armor buff usually isn't going to be worth the elite slot. Imagine if Soldier's Stance had an armor buff built-in. Would warriors suddenly be taking that over their current elites? No. Critical Agility = PvE Skill, it's meant to be powerful. Avatar of Balthazar = Elite Skill Slot, if you buffed it anymore, it might see some abuse in GvG/HA and whatnot. Avatar of Balthazar sucks now, but if they changed it to IAS, it wouldn't be all that bad, I guess
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