The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

Use as many 55s as you want and clear uw, or fow, or doa, or urgoz, or the deep. Oh wait, you can't. Strawman arguments sure are fun.

Because 55 is not immune to shutdown? Because playing 55 anywhere outside farming areas takes assload of skill /there was this guy who managed to 55 enchant removal and heavy degen mobs in prophecies era, i don't recall his achievements to be duplicated, anyone killing mob of three stone summit mesmers back up by monk and ranger with proph only skills should know./

Because 55hp is not really as strong as it seems, make mistake and you are dead. make mistake with ursan and you can afford to make dozen more before it begins to matter.

55 does not break game because power it gives is limited to few areas, its not ultimate pwn-it-all like ursan is. Farm builds can be powerful, but they are usually fragile in one way or another which makes then limited to few certain spots which lack counters. Take then out of their context and they are pathetic.

You mean like this.



Only need 1 55 monk. rest is up to whatever you wanna bring.


Also I was only for the last 2 days funny how noone whispered me IGN to prove how UBER UB was. Must be alot of cowards who are scared of lvl 14 - lvl 18's. Oh thats right. Its when you have 6 of them and using consumables thats when its overpowered.

BTW I'm still waiting anytime I'm on.

LOL, no need for name calling, you crack me up, thanks for the laugh . Didn't we already been over this? Anyhow, read the above poster again, here it is...

Just because you can solo stuffs with a skill, does not make it overpowered, for example VwK. So that really doesn't prove anything to solo anything, therefore your point that UB is not overpowered because you can't solo stuffs is a moot. Anyone with half a brain can see that this skill is overpowered. You can say that you like the skill and don't want it to be nerf but don't say that it's not overpowered.

I see two purposes for PvE skills.

1) To compensate PvE players for all those skills that were nerfed due primarily to their PvP usage.

2) To bridge the gap between good players and weak players. There isn't really any point in widening that gap.

The only way I can see to placate both groups is for there to be a seperate reward system.

A "better" drop table for players who do not use any PvE skill (consumables as well?), maybe even a title: Grognard. Anet has farming code that can tell how often you've farmed a place, surely they can tell whether you're using PvE skills on your bar.

That way, good players who do not need PvE skills are rewarded for their skill, while weak players can experience and gain access to content (they incidentally paid for) they could not without those skills.

I've been known to argue with a stump from time to time so I generally decide to ignore threads if I see it going there. In order to keep myself from going where I feel we shouldn't (no need to see who's e-peen is larger, I think that was established with the person I was arguing with), this was the only type of post I will respond too and then only because an insult I didn't intend was taken.

I knew I would get this as it could be read as bashing SMS and I didn't intend that, the part you are responding too here is in response to only that one person. I don't think SMS (even the ones I actually accused of being selfish) think this. None of that guild - or at least none that have it in their profile - has made that allusion.

This is where we differ. I don't think that DoA is such a thing, I don't think that making it so that only those people can play it is a good long term strategy.

I do not know how Anet sees it - they seem to be somewhere in between. No nerfs to UB (yet - who knows later on) yet no H/H (my mode of play). Though over all the no H/H thing is probably an effort to promote human groups instead of promoting elite groups. Removing the ability to H/H the area has caused enough people to leave, making them have to create one of the cookie cutter builds/classes is even worse if their chosen class isn't one of the trinity.

If pointed out I would also notice the opposite - if most of the defenders were from a single guild that relied on UB to farm an elite area. I'm a H/H player and I'm not terribly interested in any items from there (I can more than afford any that I want anyway) - I don't have a dog in the fight. I've used UB once and decided I prefer other skill sets - if it gets nerfed I will never notice it. In fact, you will note that I said high Norn title UB needs toned down - I just do not think that the low to middle end needs adjustment (or at least needs VERY little). I have no issue with you posting your opinion any more than you should have issue with me posting mine. After all, the main use of *any* forum is Navel Gazing by the members.

However, the vast majority of complaints are from one guild. Even the vast majority of complaints outside of that guild are along the lines that it allows less elite players to complete the Elite areas - which from all I have read is the *intent* of the PvE skills. This argument is much like the loot scaling argument - hate it or love it the intent was that high end farmers were brought down to near the level of a casual player using full groups. I just can not see any bad long term overall game consequences with UB letting less "elite" players play a large part of the game. All the long term consequences listed so far are that a very small fraction of the game base will be unhappy and this will, somehow, make people who do not know them and are unable to play with them unhappy.

Complaining that it does what Anet says they wanted doesn't help - if it becomes a required skill in that you have trouble getting into a group without then I would expect a nerf (variety being one of the things the look for) and, so far, I do not see it as being a required skill. In fact, I still see more non-UB groups forming. If it is simply that non-elite players or non-wanted characters can now do what elite players can then it is doing what they said they wanted PvE skills to do - you are better off *not* complaining about it.

Of course, you are free to reinforce to Anet that they did the right thing - it hasn't slowed the vast majority of the loot scale complainers down that they do just that and I do not expect this thread to be any different.

We can see your party window, you know.

My view is and will remain here. If you disagree, you either rely on PvE skills or believe that you are entitled to rare items as a new player. Rare items were never meant to be openly available, max-statted weapons were meant to be openly available to keep equipment in balance. Rare skins were for those that were better players, or those who put in more time and effort.

Ursan is neither.

PvE skills are neither.

Remove them all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073 You mean like this.

No, he means a 55, or 8 55's, or 12 55's, or a million 55's... Not a 55 and a full team of other builds. You can't possibly be stupid enough to not understand that.

Actually the point is you cant do it. And nope we havent gotten through it yet. The point is the skill itself isnt overpowered, until you use them in groups of 5-6 or more. Where as the vast majority will only be using it with 1 or 2 in a group.

Yeap you sure can. Still using the 55 to clear UW. I use it for alot of other places in groups to. You only said to use a 55 or however many to clear UW and other places. You didnt say which way they can be used. Theres only 1 spot in UW that wont work for 55.

It also depends on what definition of a rare skin you are talking about as there is numerous types. If you're saying torments we'll they still will be.

Yes I disagree with you, but not for the reason you think I'm disagreeing. Ofcourse as some of your supporters have pointed out anyone with a brain would have noticed that. It has absolutely nothing to do with rare skin acquisitions.

Funny thats not how it was said. Here you go just incase you not that smart yourself to read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073 Funny thats not how it was said. Here you go just incase you not that smart yourself to read.

There is this concept of context I believe you are missing. In case you are not smart enough to understand that concept, then might I suggest you pay more attention in school?

So what if you can do it, what does that prove? Nothing, unless you are you trying to say that all solo builds out there are overpowered?

You obviously don't know anything about balance, so I don't think we'll be through with this anytime soon. I'm just going to stop here.

[sarcasm]Yea, because when you use one or two, the skill doesn't bypass all form of shutdown and do high armor ignoring damage[/sarcasm].

Completely wrong. The vast majority of people are making use of numerous copies of UB in their build. And, anyway, even if by majority you mean the people we don't 'see': i.e. people h/hing dungeons and such, I assure you that, unless their class faces severe shutdown in the given area, they won't go UB.

Imo, severely nerf UB and the other 'stronger' PvE skills (Save Yourselves!, There's Nothing To Fear!) or even remove them. Being able to completely steamroll the elite PvE areas by mere button mashing is absurd.

Hmm I don't like the idea much of nerfing them to hell, I'd rather see PvE only skills where you actually have to build around. Some guy in the PvE forum made an all necro build using some PvE skills. I can hardly call that man a button mashing scrub. It would be fun if you could use PvE skills in creative builds instead of using them as I win buttons. They are just RETARDELY strong now while they should be just strong.

I wouldn't mind either when aNet would limit the use of PvE only skills. No bears in DoA, Urgoz, FoW and the like. That would keep the areas exclusive.

Fair point, but I was actually thinking of the Focused Anger Paragons with SY! and TNTF! + mad dps because they are Paragons. They make PvE elite areas a joke. The only other way to go is to nerf FA, but it's not deserving of one.

Heh.

I am pretty sure that that 55 monk only tanked certain things and either stood back when other stuff was engaged or was simply SBed to avoid insta death because of interupt/degen/enchant removal as UW offers counters to that build in every area and they get more severe as you progress deeper.

Thats somewhat balanced approach: you make beginning easy, but become burden on team later on.

Those skills could most definitely use a hit, agreed wholeheartedly. I've been doing vanquishing with a dual paragon team. I don't even use the pve skills, but thanks to [wiki]"stand your ground!"[/wiki] they are already retardedly strong. Too bad so many people are still screaming murder over past paragon nerfs, wake up folks, paragons are very powerful PvE toons!

tbh I don't care much, all this 55 talk is way off topic. noone cares really (no flame intended here).

If it's imbalanced when you run 6 copies, it's imbalanced. Look at Song of Restoration; same deal. On its own, the heal wasn't that powerful, but when people started running 4-5 of them... it got ridiculous. And guess what? It got nerfed. We have a precedence for nerfing super-imba-in-groups skills.

But either way, you're wrong. It's imbalanced when you run 1 copy. I out-DPS my nuking bar, any ranger bar I've ever thought of, my rit bar, my necro bar... etc with Ursan Blessing. It's a broken skill when it is singlehandedly more powerful than entire other builds.

Really now, AoE knockdown, shout-range weakness and unblockable, un-mitigatable ranged damage (that comes in two packets, mind you, so it gets through stuff like Prot Spirit and RoF quite effectively) that cannot be shut down by any form of melee hate IN THE ENTIRE GAME? If that isn't imba, then I'm Gaile Gray.

You'd be surprised at the quality and knowledge of ursanway DoA groups. And this isn't a compliment.

Ursanway works, and can be really fast. Yet ursanway PUGs fail at exactly the same spots as balanced groups. They also share all the other PUG problems - double/triple sup runes, incorrect weapons, no knowledge of mobs, poor/no target calling, oblivious of the areas they're in.

Ursanway is mostly zergway. Go in, if it works fine, usually the team will wipe.

Another thing many forget, ursanway is almost always coupled with consumables - ursans alone simply aren't enough for the difficult areas.

No.... Normal mode was added because there was so much outcry over difficulty of PvE.

Elite areas are there, because trinity builds don't work, and require considerably better understanding of the area. Still, the "noob scrubs" found some cookie cutter builds that have some success, and ran that.

Elite areas were designed as hard/challenging/overpowered so that people couldn't waltz in with a H/H and afk through the place like it's possible in any other mission.

And this picture is what one and a half years old? With this outdated build? You tell us you completed UW with it? You want to say you finished The Four Horsemen quest in UW as 55?

As has been mentioned previously in this as well as other threads, some PvE skills (e.g. TNTF and Seed of Life) received a nerf when they were considered to be over-powered. Those skills however required a player to build around them as they provide only defense and heal, with no ability to cause damage to foes. UB on the other hand, causes armor-ignoring damage, knockdown+damage, and weakness+increased damage from allies within earshot. It is 5 skills in the guise of an elite which allows players to also add 7 other primary and secondary skills to their bar – this was clearly pointed out by Racthoh on his user talk page on the official wiki. (Cheers Racthoh)

Granted a player utilising UB without backup from other players will have difficulties soloing explorable area, but examine what happens in the Norn arena when I experimented last night:

Activate your Norn title rank, equip UB on the bar, change secondary to Ranger if necessary, equip Quickening Zephyr, pay Gellir Frostshield 100g to enter the Norn Fighting Tournament, drop QZ, activate UB, rush your opponent and spam 1, 2, 3. Time taken from first to last fight against Magni the Bison is less than 5 mins.

I equipped 2 skills, I repeat ‘equipped only 2 skills on my skillbar’, to beat a Norn whose Bear Form only gives him 250 additional health points + 25% more damage with each attack for 1 minute. Bison still has to use hammer skills and hit to cause the extra damage, while I could run around, keep him within my aggro bubble and press 1 whenever it recharged. None of the opponents in the arena stood a chance, and even Mhenlo whose Mending generally saves him from melee and physical damage was taken out before he could use the skill.

When ANet first introduced Hard Mode, it was to provide players who had built up their skill and knowledge of the game with an added challenge as well as to prolong support for their products. Each chapter that was introduced also included an elite area whereby those who had completed or reached a certain stage of the game could explore. I agree that everyone is entitled to play in Hard Mode as well as these elite areas.

Later, ANet decided to introduce additional PvE skills in order to assist players in completing Hard Mode missions and tasks as well as elite areas. These were fine as they still required players to study and build around such skills, in addition, those which were considered to be over-powered were fixed.

Recently, with the introduction of GW:EN, ANet introduced consumables in order that players will be able to balance the inequalities faced when confronting foes in Hard Mode. This is still fine, as it brings players level with such foes in a faster paced environment. However, in addition to consumables, ANet introduced the 3 elite blessings, one of which, when utilised with the support of consumables, allows players to breeze through Hard Mode and elite areas. This is not only fine but actually great as it allows new players as well as those chasing their titles before GW2 is launched to complete their HoMs speedily.

Now, UB allows players to complete what were once difficult task fast and effectively without much trouble except for grinding a title up to rank 10 – which incidentally, is also easy as UB can be used to explore dungeons and complete their Hard Mode Dungeon Master Guides. As the problem of time is solved for many players, what is there to do once the titles for a particular character have been achieved?

Create a new character? Why bother, as profession based primary and secondary skills just make gaming complicated. Plus, one has to cap elites, purchase tomes and all the necessary skills, while it is easier and faster to achieve level 20 and get UB by performing a single quest... Speed>Grind.

What about farming? For sure. Team UB tears through anything without too much problems so why not use it for farming elite missions where all the great drops are after everyone has maxed out their HoMs. Yes, even guilds and players who are against the use of UB can change their policy and use the skill. After all, it still remains a choice and if such teams can clear such areas in record time while running balanced skillbars, imagine what they could do with UB!<W00T>

“Only n00bs wouldn’t take advantage of an easier and faster method of farming elite missions!!!”

Wait, doesn’t over-farming have an adverse effect on the economy? Yes, but does it really matter? Everyone will be able to equip the same type of armor and weapons. Everyone will have the same titles in PvE. Everyone will have similar skillbars and gameplay. No longer will players worry about being rejected from a team. No longer will players have to wait while others sort out their skillbars.... Speed>Skill.

“What ‘Sundering of the Community’? Nonsense. Never heard of it. Never existed. The introduction of UB by ANet united the entire playing community.”

“Long Live the Bear!!!”

“Wait a minute? What about in-game challenges? What about discussions, tactics and strategy of dealing with different foes?”

“Don’t you get it? There’s no need for those anymore… Forget about working on wikis, forums, etc. Play dude, play… Why waste effort doing write-ups, price checks, builds, when you can have fun? UB makes it all easy!!! Learning to adapt and all such discussions concerning builds, strategy, etc are for PvPers only.”

Sorry, I got carried away in my imaginary perfect world there…

Seriously, if UB remains as it is, then there is only one other place that is currently still considered hard, although not untouchable or impossible.

Elite Mission Hard Mode

If Anet decides that UB does not need a nerf because it is a crucial skill that will be required by 100 players to kill a dragon with 100, 000 health points and the length of an explorable map in the upcoming GW2, thus all players need to practice, then provide perks that would draw experienced and hardcore players towards Elite Mission Hard Mode which are currently still difficult even with UB.

Reintroduction of non-inscribable requirement 8 weapons in Elite Mission Hard Mode. Make them rare but obtainable only in Hard Mode. Thus, no need to nerf UB. Players who are capable and experienced will find a way to clear such areas, whether with or without UB, but the end reward should be better for the skill and effort involved.

Lastly, as has been said before and I agree wholehearted, the final decision lies with ANet. My apologies if I may have offended anyone with my posts or comments. Peace and good game to all.

I shall now go and preach the good news of UB as it is definitely easier than explaining the technicalities of switching secondary professions and 8 skills on a bar. Seriously, I’m not being sarcastic. UB is great, everyone should run it, and if I kept such a secret to myself, I would be considered selfish. May also start a service to help people level up in their Norn title tracks - using UB of course.

You guys and gals out there do know that a thread such as this requires a light moment once in a while, don’t you? It’s impossible for players and consumers like us to hold all the cards because ANet is holding all the aces.

Take it easy everyone, relax and have fun. Like I said, there’s still Elite Mission Hard Mode, but please ANet, no more PvE skillz plz...

No matter how good UB is, people will get bored of using it and will play with other skills.

Maybe they will want a challenge and maybe they will find a combo that works much better in a team environment than just UB.

I am certain some few will run this skill and only this skill until it gets a major nerf, but they are in the minority. It's a new skill and people love to latch onto the latest new thing that comes around.


Lastly while GW is leaps and bounds different from a console game there is a good reason why 90% of all console games have cheat codes built into them. People want them, and to sell the game the companies have to put them in. I am not saying that GW needs these, just that people are comparing PvE skills and consumables to god-mode.

Maybe next Anet will add an extreme mode with even higher difficutly and a single player death will kick the entire party out of the map.........anything is possible.

And you are fighting them 1vs1. How about you try to PM in game. Otherwise good post as usual. The problem isnt the skill as I've said before.

Which is why I even suggest a number of only usable in your groups. I said a maximum of only 3 active UB at a time. Before anyones says about setting any precedents look how Anet did with the Asuran summons.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Summon_Ice_Imp

Only 1 active at a time. Thats all Anet needs to do.



Free Wind- Yes we have finished the 4 horseman quest before with me as a 55. Yes that picture is old also. A few friends heard the rumor of the terror sheild and wanted to go hunting for 1 But that wasnt the time we did clear all FoW though.

To hopefully ward off some of the stereotyping...

I'm not sure I qualify as a casual player, but I'm certainly not hardcore. I've never even poked my nose into the Deep or the Warren. I poked my nose into the DoA when it was first made available, and promptly got it chopped off. In my career, I've found a grand total of 1 ecto and 3 shards. My primary is an 'unwanted' class (a Mesmer) and my next highest experience character is also an 'unwanted' class (Ranger).

I'm still wary of Ursan Blessing. Reasons:

First, I do intend to get my guild (for the record, not one of the big ones. We have about 3 regularly active members, and a handful of others) together at one stage once everyone's caught up in order to stomp them - even if it takes several tries. When I do so, I want to do it properly, not by using a godmode button. Furthermore, I'd prefer that achievement, once reached, not to be overshadowed by having everyone else just waltzing through with said godmode.

Okay, maybe that's being a little selfish that I'd like an achievement to actually mean something. But the second is, I think, a little more pertinent:

I really, really don't want to see high Norn titles become a prerequisite for groups. People have been saying that UB lowers the barrier for entry for 'casual' players - but as I've already stated I consider myself somewhere in the middle, and I certainly don't feel like I have the time to go grind a high title as a requirement for entry.

I think the main message here is: I'm not here in any fashion to protect my phat lewt from being undervalued by opening up areas to the masses - because I don't have phat lewt to protect. But I still don't like the idea of a superskill, PvE or not.

Oh, and manitoba? I think I have an idea of which critters you have in mind, and I see several problems with your test:

First, just because the monsters are so low-level reduces the value of the skill. Low armour and, if my suspicions are right, all the monsters being casters keeping their armour even lower means that the armour-ignoring nature of Ursan Strike actually starts to become a disadvantage. Against high-level mobs, it's a completely different story.

Second, if my suspicions are right, the mobs in question just happen to have one of the few skills that acts as a direct counter to UB. To use the 55 monk parallel, just because 55 monks fall in a heap against heavy enchantment removal doesn't stop them from being powerful when that enchantment removal is not present. Likewise, just because you've found one of the specific mobs that can counter UB doesn't mean it isn't overpowered against the 99% of mobs that don't throw Spirit Shackles.

Third, if I am right, the mobs in question are also throwing mostly armour-ignoring and degen - both of which ignore the armour boost from Ursan Blessing, and the latter doesn't even trigger energy gain from damage. This also has the side effect of meaning that the low level of the monsters matters less, because they're not relying on their level to punch through armour in the first place.

Fourth, your insistence that the player bring no other skills seems a cynical measure to ensure that anyone who took your challenge had absolutely no fallback position - while a genuine bear would have something under the blessing even if they didn't expect it to matter.

Finally, the concession has already been made that the bear does require healing backup, as it lacks its own self-healing. I don't think requiring some support stops a build or individual skill from being overpowered - there have been plenty of builds that required more support from the rest of the team to function that have been nerfed in the past.

So, in short: Just because the bear can't solo Twin Serpent Lakes (there, I said it...) doesn't exactly mean it can't possibly be overpowered. Heck, I treat that area with care even when I have a balanced hero/hench team along...

Nope it. No degen where I'm talking about


Thats the point UB is not overpowered on its own. Its when you add all the others to it then the mass effect is overpowered.

Nope is still overpowered by its own, you just notice more when you add 5 more.

anyway even is still true its still overpowered

I'm having difficulty with the idea that the skill is overpowered, and yet a team build that can clear DoA FASTER than the UB team, is somehow just fine. I would definitely say that something is imbalanced there, since one method seems to be inherently faster.

Seriously, if someone doesn't like to use UB, nothing is forcing them to. Starting a team and putting out "Non-UB team LF <specific, cookie-cutter build>" isn't any harder than starting a team to play through UB. It very much does seem as though a certain mindset wants this skill nerfed, and nerfed hard, just to keep everyone else out of an area they can play, but few others can.

Sorry to step on territorial toes here, but one of the reasons the PvE skills were introduced int he first place was because areas like DoA are mostly dead. Certain specific builds were wanted, and no mesmers, sin, or rits need apply, ever. UB allows the classes that couldn't find a group to go in and actually play the areas. I think ANet made a huge mistake in calling areas "elite" to begin with. The whole entitlement thing, in reverse: the elite areas are MINE, and you can't come and play an easier build, because somehow that lessens my accomplishments.

Am I the only person who's honestly sick of coming to the forums and reading post after post of skills that someone thinks need nerfed? I can understand why high-end GvG needs balanced, and I've been told over and over that skill balancing is done with PvP primarily in mind. Why is anyone even considering asking for a nerf to a skill that they can choose not to play with, and that they are never forced to play AGAINST? Absurd, to me. Let teh people playing UB play UB. I played it on my dervish for about 2 weeks, then got bored with it. Truth be told, there are much more effective skills than UB for any bar, even if you count it as 5 skills (another absurdity, because while UB is up, you run only UB without the rest of your skillbar backing it up.)

If UB teams could clear the high-end areas faster than any other build, hands down, then it would be overpowered, but several people have stepped forward and said that not only is that not the case, but the truth is the exact opposite: an UB team can not achieve the times that some other team builds can. Take that fact into consideration before trying to claim that UB is overpowered, even with the synergy of a 6-ub and 2-monk team. It's still not even as good as a build that doesn't use UB, and it's certainly not better. What metric are people using for this supposed imbalance?

One takes more skill.

This does not change the fact that all PvE skills require changing or complete removal. That is the metric I use. My reasons have been made clear throughout.

The whole problem with the idea of taking more skill is that enough communication can compensate for skill. Can you take a SF elementalist, give him vent, and talk him through what s/he needs to do? Is that person playing skilfully?

This is why the whole "skill" argument is unconvincing: there is no way to define it unambiguously. Does 55'ing take skill? Does WvK farming take skill? 600-smite teams? The UB team is resilient: you can afford mistakes. Is that how you define skill: how detrimental a single mistake can be?

I don't care about UB personally. I am, however, puzzled about why people believe that a skill used in a completely non-competitive form is somehow threatening enough to them that they feel a need to call for it to be restricted or removed. This isn't even a game where players share an instance. Fairness is removed from the balance equation because it's not a competitive endeavor. Griefing is removed because the people who want to play without UB don't even have to SEE it being used in their group's own private instance. A team playing UB has ABSOLUTELY no effect on a team playing without it. The skill argument, I'll buy for PvP. There, skill is supposed to have a defining impact on the game. Skill determines the winners from the losers there. What does a "skillful" build offer besides challenge?

And why are people trying to force people away from a playstyle they enjoy, into one they don't? When this happens, then someone IS trying to directly and negatively impact other peoples' enjoyment of the game. If someone plays UB, and enjoys it, then it hurts nobody else to allow it. If UB gets nerfed because of posts like this, then it DOES impact people who enjoy playing the game.

It isn't a matter of balance, it's a matter of preference, and trying to dictate that one's personal preference should be the only valid one is something that I will argue against. When someone can tell me WHY UB teams that roll DoA slower than cookie-cutter teams with voice chat and perfect organization are bad for the game, I'll rethink it, but I don't think that the arguments hold up in a game where all instances are private, and the skill itself cannot be used in any competitive area.

Teams that are running a standard balanced build in elite missions have spent weeks, studying the area and working on builds. They adapted their skills and have learnt how to deal with certain spawns, how to pull mobs, positioning, etc., thus cutting down on their time. If these teams decided to run UB, believe me, they would cut their timing down even further.

Teams that currently utilise UB are new to such areas and missions. They are mostly PuG groups or guilds that have set foot in the area for the first time. Given time, they will adapt to the areas and be able to reduce the time it takes to clear an area as PvE spawns remain constant and therefore predictable. If they can't, then I am sorry to say that the skill level of such UB teams equals nil.

Btw, a team that comes up with a build to vanguish an elite area as well as the elite boss in the area holds title to that build. It becomes a 'cookie-cutter' build only when they share it with the general playing public and other players decide to adopt it for their own use. Once again, the choice is to adopt or create one's own build.

Effective communication, in a team game, is half of skill. I've known incredible players who cannot communicate and as a result are sub-par in a full battle because the rest of the team cannot function as efficiently with them.

None of the above really take skill to succeed in an area of Guild Wars. The most 55ing takes is consistency and area knowledge. I would say 55'ing takes more player capability than UB because of understanding how best to aggro and group mobs for faster zone clearance, and there is notable difference between the more known 55'ers and random ones.

Skill in Guild Wars is playing consistently at a competent level - high level PvP games aren't always decided by who played better but by who made more mistakes. UB allows mistakes to go unnoticed - compensating for player skill far more than most other options (except possibly Save Yourselves).

After a few runs, I'll bet that player would stop needing to have to be talked through it and will learn to handle it by themselves. This is one of the fundamental bases of the student-teacher relationship.

Once they've mastered SF, you can graduate them onto some other elementalist builds, or start talking them through a different profession entirely. Keep this up for long enough, with someone who's willing to learn, and sooner or later you'll probably get at least a moderately skilled player who can start to put together their own builds.

Does Ursan do something similar? Not really, except perhaps in learning timing for Roar and Force.

I don't see any denial about Spirit Shackles...

It's overpowered enough that people with 5 bears would rather take another bear than something else. I don't think even SF has people seriously saying that 6 SFs and two monks is better than an (even slightly) more balanced build.

After glancing through this thread, I find it pretty sad that people get rejected from teams because they don't have UB (or if their Norn title is only level 4 or something). UB is merely a skill that transforms your skillbar into a very easy to run bar with fairly powerful skills. As I've mentioned in another thread, UB is only game breaking because most players run trash bars (and many are probably not skilled enough to handle "good" bars). It turns your Joe Wammo into a better tank and an actual damage dealing source.

While I think it's good to have a noob-friendly skill such as this, in the long run, it just seems to impair character development. Why bother learning how to play a class effectively when you can UB your way through everything? As it is right now, no one but monks really needs to play their own class. Is this healthy for the game, probably not. Is it helping bad players get through tough areas, sure. That's the tradeoff Anet has to make if they ever decide to balance this skill.

In conclusion, UB is a strong skill for turning bad or average players into seemingly decent players, but it basically impedes their ability to develop into good players, because of the simplicity of the build (aka mashing 1234 on recharge).

These quotes are good.

That is all.

The are also good:



Other good stuff:

Those are his real thoughts, he doesn't want you getting his phat lewt. The challenge isn't the issue here now is it? It's the loot being being "worth it".

Note that with a FA+SY Para backing you up, DoA is rampageable. Now moving on, all you scrub nobodies listen up:

On the current state of balance in PvE:
Only about 3 pages of a 12+ page thread, one thread of about 3 on this subject.

Skill is tied to PvP, always has been and always will be.

PvE is not about a players skill as much as the time a player takes to learn how to beat each and every map he comes across. Since the foes never change its just a matter of time till you find a build that can conqure the zone.

The only real impact PvE skills and consumables has on player skill is if a person uses thes in PvE then jumps into PvP where he/she is forced to come up with new builds without them.

I don't like the idea of a single skill being the best in the game, so in principle I think UB should be taken down a notch.

However, I also don't like even the idea of an elite area. I want to explore all areas and do all quests without having to stick to a very specific class and build. (DoA grouping horror completely discouraged me from trying to get the quest chain done).

So, UB is here a solution to the problem. Do not take it out unless you make the areas accessible.

Nope no spirit shackles. Just PM I'll take you there lol

Are you actually quoting yourself now trobinson97? :-/

As tempting as it may be for you guys to post otherwise, the thread isn't about me. :-/

You guys? I'm a bystanding lurker!