The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

Just killed Kanaxai in 1hr 11minutes with guild... 2 heroes + 1 random PUGer.
That with having to afk a few times >_>

6ursan, 4 monks, 1ss + 1bip. no consumables. completely unorganized too ^^
Only one of us remembered recall (lol), dunkoro had his skills disabled for 2/3 of the mission (another lol) and required no tactics other than "run in and kill stuff".
It was too easy :P
Killed the leviathan, lol.

MOAR NERF PLZ

I've been following this thread for a while now but have withheld from posting as I believed that eventually, some form of reasoning would come from this discussion instead of merely pointing fingers at individuals or groups of players.

The latest skill update was introduced last night and Ursan has not been touched so gamers can still use it if they wish to do so for whatever purposes and areas they intend to explore. However, as Racthoh and many others have rightly pointed out, learning and improving one's gaming skill and experience is part of GW and if that aspect of the game is ignored, there is no one to blame but oneself.

Over the past few weeks, I have been taking friends and guildies down to DoA and Urgoz running Ursan in order that they would be able to familiarise themselves with the areas and spawns for the simple reason that it is fast and effective as I would probably tear my hair out in frustration if it was done with a standard build.

In the past, we have cleared Urgoz in 80 mins without utilising Ursan, 70 mins for The Deep; both with 50% players and 50% heroes. Ursan made it possible to complete Urgoz in 65 mins with a group of 12 players (I have yet to attempt The Deep with Ursan), 80% of which had never completed or been to the area before. Yes, it was all great fun and everyone got their monument, etc., but at the end of the day, I'm hoping for players who look beyond such simple gameplay. Players who would say, "Hey, that was a walk in the park! Let's try a balanced build and maybe even HM!"

True, PvE skills such as TNTF and SY would probably find their way into a balanced build for such play, but they require skill management. There is balance, as success is not dependent on a single skill taking the entire team through an elite mission.

I remember a time before GW:EN was introduced when it took a whole lot of frustrating attempts to just clear Foundry in DoA.

I've heard this from many players in the past, and as Racthoh has pointed out above:

"Learn to adapt. It's make one a better player." It is not skills that maketh a player, but a person who learns and adapts his own skills to any given situation.

Watch what I do here. I just did the deep with no Ursan, no consumables, total pug in 1 hour and 5 minutes. It was way too easy, one monk and we were pretty unorganized. Nerf all skills "moar plz" *rolleyes*

And what're your Deep runs like?
Something like;
"We had 2ppl and failed miserably. Make it easier!!!"
???

An excelent intelligent post that very elloquently stated something I have been trying to get accross.

This skill, like all skills, is just a tool that can be used for good or bad.

The good is to use it for training, for learning what can and can not be done in zones where the learning curve is extremely unkind.

The bad are those people that refuse to allow party members a choice of wheather or not they will use that skill.

That was a CRAZY run!!!
If you look closely at that pic, and knew these guys in the team..it was a candy corn invasion on teh FoW!!
An off the cuff, spur of the moment "let's do something different" night..

Mesmer in need said:
"What? Why the need to include "sms" in there. No offence, but they arent the ultimate pve invinci guild. Singling them out like that makes it seem like they are the only ones who can do do it, and i bet much less organized groups have done near the same. But even though they beat it, how many of those people on the team were mesmers, assassins, or rangers? None."

And as for Rangers, um...I am a ranger...just wear different armors...alot!
______________
PvE Helpful Hint #4471: Splinter isn't nerfed, just more challenging to use!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need how many of those people on the team were mesmers, assassins, or rangers? None.

We've done it with Mesmer(s) and Ranger(s), and are very soon to do it with an Assassin, just because we can (and because Skuld needs his HoM pimped out further). Please know of what you speak before posting, and stop complaining about group discrimination just because your teams are too dumb to work out how to use certain professions outside of Ursanway.

And by the way, I wonder why you support Ursanway, when you yourself say it's not fair to people who don't have certain games (which includes Eye of the North, in case you hadn't noticed). Is it worse for that Factions Elemenalist to lack a single skill from a build, or for that Factions Elementalist to lack the single skill that is the build?

I was just in GToB and a person was spamming a link to a gold-selling site. I told everyone in local to report him, and was called an idiot. I explained to them why it was against the rules, and I still got called an idiot. Someone actually reported me. "seras i reported u for bein an idiot" If people are this dumb, then just... wow... you can't really expect them to come up with any working build.

Group discrimination is a completely valid complaint and if Ursanway is now correcting that problem, then the correction of that problem is more important for the good of the game than anything else and Ursanway should never be nerfed for that reason alone. Period.

Sure, really hardcore players in tight-knit Guilds may accept and succeed with unwelcome classes in DOA/Urgoz/Deep etc., but a Guild like that is a luxury that the vast majority of players do not have and never will have. Just because it can be in theory, under very specific circumstances for those who have the luxury of a great Guild, does not mean that the player of an unwelcome class will ever have the opportunity to join a team in the areas where his class is unwelcome.

It is far better and more equitable for the super hardcore elite players to have "newbies" encroaching on their territory a little bit, than to have almost 100% of the players from unwelcome classes ever having the opportunity to participate in the endgame areas of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros under very specific circumstances

If by that you mean "not being bad", then yes, you would be correct.

How can you even begin to pretend that Ursan Blessing getting bad players into groups as a mesmer or rit or whatever does anything good? The player isn't improving in quality; hell, he isn't even playing a mes or rit or ranger. When they go in with Ursan, they get a totally new skillbar of unblockable, overpowered shit that has nothing to do with whatever primary they are.

That does nothing good for the game.

It lets people who primarily play those professions and H/H everything because they aren't let into PUGs.

Being bad has nothing to do with it whatsoever. It does not enter into it because no one will ever even consider to take you on the team if you are in an unwelcome class, 100% regardless of your skill. 100% regardless of anything other than your class itself which prior to Ursan, happening to be the right class was the only possible way to ever get invited to be on a team in Deep, Urgoz, or DOA, and if you are a member of unwelcome class, you are SOL and will never get invited to a team or be able to play there.

I don't know/care if anyone has made a strong case for why ursan blessing is overpowered, but here's the reason:

it completely bypasses any form of shutdown, therefore making it overpowered, as you don't have to take any sort of precaution or evaluate your bar before you attempt an area, you just slap it on and you're good to go. There should be no skill in the game that does that sort of damage and is immune to all forms of shutdown sans death; even the most powerful pve skills before it (SY, TNTF, seed of life) can be disabled through vocal or enchantment removal; ursan is just a button you hit to win the game for you, and autowin buttons have no place in a team-based game that is supposed to promote skill.

Energy denial pretty much pwns it. That is, for warriors without 15/15 sets. But... that's about it.

mallyx energy drain is another example, the obvious thing to do is have spirit control, seems UB needs a tactic or 2 huh

i'm going to have to agree that ursan blessing is the most utterly unbalanced skill in the game, making a build creation process obsolete.............but when i can get my ranger through doa without having to bip or tank with him (both of which i utterly despise 40+ tanked runs on my tank 100's ss'd or bipped on my necro can do that to a person) I'm definitely not complaining, but, even to that effect... it completely destroys my previous accomplishments with my ele, tank and necro, where as it used to be something to be proud to say "i've done hundreds of runs", when billy bob joe brown whose only real teacher in life was the leeroy jenkins you tube special can but in and say "y0u sh00b i've done kajillions of thems" doesn't exactly make one feel like they've accomplished something. which brings us to an indecisive conlusion that this is another case of guild wars nimby (not in my back yard) those who gained benifit of not having to fit into the trinity (us rangers and mesmers) say hey, leave it be, it makes me have a place in the team. Whereas those who took their time and skill to run the area is simply disgusted with the prospect of a UB team will say "hey nerf that.. ffs".


either way, no matter what anet does, everyone is going to Q_Q about it....to rather than discuss it, lets just wait and see.

-joe fierce

Every step you take will trigger the other spirit (Enduring Torment), giving you a point of energy back because you took damage.

I said withOUT the 15/15 set. >-< Normally a warrior has 20-15 energy, so a melee/non radiant warrior can be drained easily against ethers [this happened to me in Vabbi].

My bad ><. I just remembered there being a post about energy denial in the recent pages and just did a quick search without reading it.

Ya, that's why you pick up a 20e staff for like 5k

Doubt it, they wouldn't release something which was impossible to do.

Ursan Blessing is enabling bad players to obtain rewards which should be reserved for the best. No matter how many dumb 'It's a game, it's for fun!', 'We all paid the same for it!' and 'Casual gamers should have equal rights!' arguments you defend it with, it still goes against the main principle of Guild Wars.

seems to me its all just becoming a joke really
the elite of the game just think we are right your wrong end of story
and no one for sure can argue against the ideals for getting better, learning your trade learning to adapt to new things new ways.
when was the last time you helped any one less fortunate instead of your 8man move and think as one groups try just picking up 7 wanabes and actualy
train them win them over to the dark side. do the doa that way.
now i like the bear skills and for sure it is a powerful skill it is after all an elite
ive never been in a party with more than 2 bears so cant comment one way or the other.
what i do know it dont give me and my hero hench any major advantages over my normal build.
ive never been able to steamroll an area useing my bear skill so all this scare mongering about this skill is wrong people will play as they always do with what ever makes them happy.
and talking about steamrolling i been useing that sabb 3 necro build now that is something else .
my point being is on that one that wasint a build well known in pve till recently and id put my money on there being more ppl useing those necros than use the bear skills to fill their party and get stuff done .
and you dont even have to do nothing.
now i think that this and the other thread about ursan are just no better
than a play ground sqaubble now.
any valid worry that the ppl who were worried that this skill was imbalanced has im my opion been lost in all those we are elite we dont want noobs in our play ground posts we have had.
there is a simple solution to this as i see it
1/ the good and the great need to pass on their knowledge to those less able not just their other elite buddies.
2/ did a/net intend that those areas are for the sole use of elite players if the answer to that is yes then a/net should make it so ie only the elite players with rank4 or 5 in the title track can get in no taxis possible.
3/ smile its almost christmas
4/ same as 1 really we need to really be helping those less able to catch up
for in my book what is the greater challenge here beating doa and all the other elite missions,or helping train the future mind set of this game we all love.
a/net is doing its bit here ie making it harder to get run past areas where you should be learning,stopping you getting max armour at lvl3 and the like
5/and all that said if 6bears and 2 monks can do doa inspite of everything then good luck to them

Honestly, for me, the one thing that keeps me away from areas like Urgoz, Deep, and DoA is not the difficulty, it's how darn long it takes to complete those areas (for a normal team, not an "optimized for the area" team). Given enough time, anyone could complete those areas with or without UB, consumables, or any other PvE-only abomination; especially with a full team of real players. The only thing big PvE guilds like SMS have over many other players is time, experience, and like-minded people who coordinate well in a full or mostly human party. That's it.

That said, I really have no opinion one way or the other on what happens to UB. It does make more sense for Rage and Strike to be attack skills, just by game mechanics. For that reason alone, I could understand that kind of balance given to it. On the other hand, it doesn't really seem to be hurting anyone. I don't see any reason to fix what ain't broken.

Oh noes teh bad players are getting teh 1337 stuff - I was realy bad at gw at first

My Point ... So what?!? do you feel strongly about only the best players getting the best things

Skill = Easier to get best stuff, not "should" get best stuff

dont feel no pain
i dont express my self like i should but you pretty much hit the nail on the head

For a supposedly rampant imbalance I don't see many people running around with it.

I'm seeing more and more people say they got Vanquisher of x all thanks to ursan.

People are doing doa/deep/urgoz/fow/uw almost full Ursan.

Ask for help/advice on some mission(NM or HM) you got problems with and one of the first answers you'll get is "Go ursan".


So that's 1 skill, 1 skill that allows almost everyone to beat almost anything. No need to think about your build, no need to adapt your team setup/strategy. Just bring ursan, some healing, and you'll be just fine. Don't worry about any counters/shutdown because that simply barely exists.

Now this simply can not be right and IMO should definatly be nerfed.

And no, I'm not saying this because I'm in one of those good PvE guilds that walk through every elite mission. Heck, I haven't even completed DoA/urgoz/Deep/UW myself yet.

There's just 1 thing I know, 1 skill should not make it possible to do something that normally requires a certain amount of game knowledge, thought through builds, and a decent/good party setup.


Just my 0.2 cents. And no comments on my awesome english please, it's only my 2nd language.

hmmm , I think its overpowerd... but other people geting titles like thatdoesnt bother me

Sadly, ANet isn't standing by that statement as much as they used to (see: anything in GWEN.)

this is where you fail

You sir hit the nail on the head.

It isn't like the skill just came out either. The fact that there are still MORE normal cookie cutter builds formed everywhere should speak for itself.

You make this skill MORE popular by repeatedly bumping it.

I hadnt used Ursan until I saw this thread. I had no idea it was over powered.

Not that many people use it right now, anyways.

I'm sorry but when a game supposedly rewards you for skill and not time and than a group 8 players who only need to understand their aggro bubble and how to follow calls can go into an ELITE area and can beat it using only 1 skill, their is a problem. Granted you need 2 monks that need to be somewhat decent and the other 6 should preferably have a high LB and Norn rank. But than again grind =/= skill.

Paragons, before GW:EN, were the most powerful PvE character you could roll (and probably still so).

So why does everyone think they "suck"?

Welcome to GW:EN - ANet's attempt to appeal to the MMO market.

Game of skill... sigh...
Unfortunatelly, this was not true long before UB. And I don't only mean the grind factor... Elite areas, the ones really needing skills, were always cookie-cutter areas.

Thumbs up for them for trying!

Excuse me, tehres NO such thing as adrenaline rush at Mallyx while using UB...

Demise... UB has not started it, the change of ANets policy in GW did. The changes are:
# leaving the "Skill>Time" policy of GW1 behind and adding a lot of grind factor
# Adding too many skills usable regardless the Primary and Secondary proffesions (Remember the first AP quest in Prophecies, the one with changing Secondary? The NPC said: "Hello, .name. You're a .Primary Proffesion. and nothing can change that (...) - I used to think this quote speaks of GW the most.)
# Making Titles the only aim in GW
# interpreting "challenge" as implementing sick numbers of sick-lvl monsters with sick-lvl of attributes, sick hp, energy pools and regen, and sick monster only skills (that cannot be effectively disabled...), placed within sick enviromental effects which rendered some classes useless (mesmers, assasins and dervishes mostly)

99% of my gameplay time I spend on my mesmer. I cant really frown upon UB as it let me finally finnish DoA with her. UB is a fail, but it matched the fail of what is introducing regions like DoA and all PvE skills and all the grind factor (titles giving benefits etc etc).

The problem with DoA is not its elitness, but elitness of "rewards" it gives (elie weapons with tormented skins - players dream of having them). People wanting challenge can still go there with "regular" builds, but - honestly - what people look for in DoA is not challenge usually. Theres a saying, if you don't knowwhats up, is must be about money. And it is.
I can't help the nasty feeling that those who criticise UB in DoA the most and call for all graces to nerf the skill are those who are afraid UB will take their precious income away.

Simplest solution?
Making Tormented weapons easier to obtain, much easier (as easy as destroyer weapons perhaps). Then, when all left in DoA will be pure challenge, most people will stop caring if UB is overpowered or not. And DoA will die, too.

Would explain a few things

Yes, I caught the return to area51 defense a few pages back. Funny thing is .. I came from a clan in cod called area51 We held 11 number 1 ladders and won CAL. Ironic .. the attempted insult was actually a compliment.

No stranger to high level organized gaming here. Which is why the arguments to nerf this are laughable at best. Most skilled players wouldn't notice if Joe noob lit himself on fire.

/Fail

D/RT Ftw!

And that's all you can say?

Nonetheless, that's not my point. Paragons can give massive party-wide damage reduction, buffs, etc. already *without* PvE skills. Give them "There's Nothing To Fear!" and "Save Yourselves!" and you might as well type IDDQD.

Now, why don't people realize the power of the Paragon? Well, I could go into something a little more deeper but I won't frost up anything and just say that the large majority of GW players are ignorant and pretty stupid.

What am I trying to say with that? That not everyone is going to go Bear. There may be quite a few, but people always go with the "known and true team build" (i.e. cookie cutter). But given the fact that Ursan Blessing is easy to use (all you need is the skill, the rest is literally cut out for you) might make it a bit more popular.