The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

Amon Warrior

Amon Warrior

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by cebalrai
Anyone here say that the bear should be nerfed "to death"? Nope!

And unless something is overpowered it's not fun and can't bring "spice" to the game? That's a really awful way to look at things IMO
I was being specific to this skill in particular - which is how I view it - not to the whole game. Balacing is good, but I view this skill - on which this thread is about - has an interesting exception to the rule.

This skill 'probably' being nerfed to death might've came out a bit too strong. But certainly a 'high possibility' of this skill being nerfed would be a good bet.

Nerfing can be beneficial to the game as a whole, BUT it wouldn't be the first time that designers used the 'sledgehammer' approach on a skill, as some have fittingly called it right here in this thread...

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cebalrai
I'm not at all saying what you're reacting to. So not sure how you have a point
It's called a strawman argument. Instead of actually addressing the points presented by the opposition, the user of a strawman argument creates an extremist caricature of the opposition's argument (the "strawman") that everyone, including the opposition, can see as being a bad idea. This caricature is then beaten down, and through some kind of sympathetic resonance, the destruction of the strawman is believed to also show the more moderate argument actually presented by the opposition to be in error.

A close relative of the 'slippery slope' argument, although the latter allows for the possibility of a third (or fourth, or fifth, or Nth) party to be responsible for creating the extreme position instead of pretending that the actual opposition is taking that position.

Faena

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2007

Snif

Mo/

I usually don't like gimmicks and will always try to avoid using cookie cutter builds.
However I ended playing in a UB group the other day (I was tired, but couldn't sleep so didn't want to take risk monking in dangerous situation), and I ended up having a great deal of fun while playing as a bear. And it even allowed some unloved classes to get access to UW (we had a para and a mesmer).

I really enjoyed my time, and I will certainly play UB again when I don't feel for going to something else.
Leave the players the choice on how they want to play. And maybe add an incentive to play something else than cookie cutter or holy trinity (one stupid example : one more drop in the end chest per unloved class para/mesmer/assa). But let the people enjoy the game, and I really believe there are a lot more people happy with UB than people unhappy.

Gaile Gray

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karyuu
Well, it's been fun...
I understand what you're saying, Karyuu, but I am hopeful that UB, if it gets a tweak, would only get a modest one.

Please understand -- I'm not the Nerf Patrol. And I'm definitely not here to try to balance skills. Oh no, not for me! But when players say they're concerned about something, it's only fair to ask the designers to take a look, if only to confirm "Yep, working as intended."

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire
Hello my name is Guildwarsguru, you might remember me from such films as 'casual players can do what I do? Nerf!' and 'I'm not happy until you're unhappy.'
There is nothing casual about grinding Norn to rank 10, and for areas like DoA, grinding your Lightbringer title to r8.

Quote:
Save guild wars.
Guild Wars is supposed to be about skill over time, the bear is neither of those. Ursan is all about "grinding my title to 10 and mash one button after I hear '321' on vent". Killing the bear is a step towards restoring that original image.

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

There is some room for improvement on all skills, even ursan, but there is also a sharp edge that leads to destruction of the skill as well.

Maybe the attack should not be ranged, maybe the knockdown should only be 1 second.

Other than that it should be left alone.

Keep in mind that this is more about how people want OTHER people to play rather than how this affects thier own playing style.

Faer

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Keep in mind that this is more about how people want OTHER people to play rather than how this affects thier own playing style.
Actually, I think it's more about how some people want the game to not suck, while other people don't care as long as they get phat lewtz.

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

How does one skill that you can chose not to use make the game suck?

How does other peoples "phat lewtz" affect how you play the game?

This is about how you think other people should play, not about how you play and it is that very truth that should determine what changes if any are made to any PvE skill.

leprekan

leprekan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posers and Wannabes [nubs]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
but I am hopeful that UB, if it gets a tweak, would only get a modest one."
Why would a PvE ONLY skill need even a modest "tweak"?

Given the way PvE is setup so we do not impact eachothers game play .. why should it matter if player x is unhappy how player y plays?

Yes, I have UB and maxed Norn. No, I have not been in a UB group. As I said in a prior post I see more generic groups forming than UB. If UB is anything it is fun .. reminds me of long ago running into PrP in ha when they were running a toucher build (they weren't winning but they were having that thing called FUN). Sometimes people running around doing damage outside the traditional classes useage is a good thing .. it brings fun back to the game. We are 2 years out from GW2 with a shrinking fan base (go to outposts and deny it) anything that removes "fun" from the game is a bad plan.

What you need is more Anet people in the actual game to see if there really is a concern .. since many here play forums more than gw. I have more than 8500 hours logged (sorry for the extra bandwidth I cost you=p). Point being I do not see these groups being formed more than others.

Cacheelma

Cacheelma

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Ascalon Union

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
How does one skill that you can chose not to use make the game suck?

How does other peoples "phat lewtz" affect how you play the game?

This is about how you think other people should play, not about how you play and it is that very truth that should determine what changes if any are made to any PvE skill.
Oh, no no no. Other people getting ANY loots doesn't affect me one bit.

People use overpowered skills in PvP? Who cares? I don't play PvP....not that much anyway.

People use overpowered skills in PvE? Who cares? What they do doesn't concern me.

People use duping exploits? Who cares? Their "phat lewtz" doesn't affect me one bit (amirite, mr. above?).

So tell me, o wise one, why has Anet EVER nerfed/fixed/changed ANYTHING in this game? According to your logic, nothing ANYONE do would affect your gameplay ANYWAY.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
I understand what you're saying, Karyuu, but I am hopeful that UB, if it gets a tweak, would only get a modest one.

Please understand -- I'm not the Nerf Patrol. And I'm definitely not here to try to balance skills. Oh no, not for me! But when players say they're concerned about something, it's only fair to ask the designers to take a look, if only to confirm "Yep, working as intended."
I love that part "Yep, working as intended" lol I bet they say that 1000 times a day with all the silly suggestions they get to change everything. And yah know what? I bet if they changed half of them there would be another crowd in here wanting that changed and the cycle continues. My parents always taught me though you eat what is in front of you and you don't whine about it or you don't get any pudding. Who likes Pudding?

snikerz

snikerz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Rt/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Guild Wars is supposed to be about skill over time, the bear is neither of those. Ursan is all about "grinding my title to 10 and mash one button after I hear '321' on vent". Killing the bear is a step towards restoring that original image.
Obviously not anymore with the introduction of pve-only skills, its a matter of grinding that title to max to have that superior edge in pve, killing the bear wont restore the image, there will be another fotm, and there will be more grinding.

People are ignoring the fact we are talking about an elite skill, not because you can have 3 more skills on your skillbar, but the fact its better than regular pve-only skills.

pve-only elite skill > pve-only skill > normal elite skill > normal skill.

I personally think UB is intended by the devs to be as powerful as it is, they are marketing that the norn bear is all powerful god, just take a look at dervish god forms, they are all powerful, but because of pvp imbalance they had to nerf them considerably.

leprekan

leprekan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posers and Wannabes [nubs]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
There is nothing casual about grinding Norn to rank 10, and for areas like DoA, grinding your Lightbringer title to r8.


Guild Wars is supposed to be about skill over time, the bear is neither of those. Ursan is all about "grinding my title to 10 and mash one button after I hear '321' on vent". Killing the bear is a step towards restoring that original image.
Having a link to your greens for sale from DoA ... is somebody worried noobs might be able to farm them too? DoA was cookie cutter 6 months ago when I got bored with it and moved on. UB won't make that any worse. No offense, but given the volume of greens you have for sale .. it looks more like trying to protect your farm from new people than an actual concern for balance.

Ministry Of Peace

Ministry Of Peace

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

req 12 land

guildless for the time being

P/

If anyone is allowed to basically beat anything they want with ursan blessing, the whole point of hard mode, titles, elite areas, etc. is completely eradicated. If people just want to have fun, they are free to do so in normal mode. Even casual players should still be able to complete elite areas on normal mode, with a little thought. Likewise, hardcore players are free to complete areas on hard mode, for greater rewards. Just like in real life, better skill and performance reaps greater rewards.

However, UB takes away any point for hardcore players to spend 2+ hours on a zone, with a good deal of the time just organizing a proper build, when a UB team can just come through and beat the zone in half the time, with little to no preparation.

You say others using UB doesn't affect you... but it does. It affects the economy.

Faer

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by leprekan
is somebody worried noobs might be able to farm them too?
So I heard conspiracy theories don't label people as kooks anymore.

mirite?

gb2Area51, and buy me a new foil hat while you are there please.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by leprekan
Having a link to your greens for sale from DoA ... is somebody worried noobs might be able to farm them too? DoA was cookie cutter 6 months ago when I got bored with it and moved on. UB won't make that any worse. No offense, but given the volume of greens you have for sale .. it looks more like trying to protect your farm from new people than an actual concern for balance.
You don't sell DoA greens because you farm them. You sell them because they build up when you clear the areas over and over. Not to mention "Save Yourselves!" is just as broken and needs to be smashed as well - although that at least involves the use of player skillbars and classes.

leprekan

leprekan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posers and Wannabes [nubs]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ministry Of Peace
If anyone is allowed to basically beat anything they want with ursan blessing, the whole point of hard mode, titles, elite areas, etc. is completely eradicated. If people just want to have fun, they are free to do so in normal mode. Even casual players should still be able to complete elite areas on normal mode, with a little thought. Likewise, hardcore players are free to complete areas on hard mode, for greater rewards. Just like in real life, better skill and performance reaps greater rewards.

However, UB takes away any point for hardcore players to spend 2+ hours on a zone, with a good deal of the time just organizing a proper build, when a UB team can just come through and beat the zone in half the time, with little to no preparation.

You say others using UB doesn't affect you... but it does. It affects the economy.
Sorry, a cookie cutter build of hardcore people waiting for an ob tank to get agro does not scream skill to me. I would definitely fall into "hardcore" difference is I am not posting out of personal greed to protect a farm. The economy is trashed and will continue to slide into oblivion with or without this skill. The primary problem is fewer people playing the game to absorb the items .. not one pve only skill.

Shinjinbukai

Shinjinbukai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

Palo Alto, California

Zealots of Shiverpeak[ZoS]

Mo/

You did not provide any argument to it being a bad skill or an arguement to it being nerfed. This skill can only be good because if I am going to pug at least I know that the wammo will have a decent skill.

Besides you still need to know somewhat (although little admittantly(sp?)) basic tactics and how to conserve mana.

This gives the other classes that can't do anything in elite areas a great opportunity.

So what if you don't like it because you think its overpowered? Find some friends who want to not use it and go ahead with a normal build, I'll be in an UB group.

Erys Vasburg

[Domination Henchman]

Join Date: Feb 2007

Echovald Forest

House Vasburg

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinjinbukai
Besides you still need to know somewhat (although little admittantly(sp?)) basic tactics and how to conserve mana.
lol @ "managing energy" while using a skill that restores energy every time you hit c+space which is all you have to do, even though there are still morons who fail at running the most brainless "build" currently in the game.

RhanoctJocosa

RhanoctJocosa

Legendary Korean

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

W/

I use UB on my warrior now because it's nice to be able to play something other than DSlash+SY or Eviscerate. However, I wouldn't give a hoot if it got hit because I can just as easily go back to running a normal warrior, and I know all the people I play with can do that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinjinbukai
You did not provide any argument to it being a bad skill or an arguement to it being nerfed. This skill can only be good because if I am going to pug at least I know that the wammo will have a decent skill.

Besides you still need to know somewhat (although little admittantly(sp?)) basic tactics and how to conserve mana.

This gives the other classes that can't do anything in elite areas a great opportunity.
- If you're playing with "wammos", who I'm assuming symbolise bad players, their skill bar isn't really going to mean anything; they'll still be bad players and will still do what bad players do: overextend, attack wrong targets, trigger quests when they shouldn't, etc.
-Valid enough point, though you can always just let your energy run out (neg set) inbetween groups and put UB back in when it recharges (remember you're able to pack your bar with 7 defensive skills for when UB is down).
-Good for you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erys Vasburg
lol @ "managing energy" while using a skill that restores energy every time you hit c+space which is all you have to do, even though there are still morons who fail at running the most brainless "build" currently in the game.
Even so, you still have to think about your energy. Not saying it's an issue, no way, but it's still there. E.g., if you're a warrior you'd probably look to UR in the middle of large groups for the KD as well as the energy gain which means you're being somewhat aware when playing, even if all you're doing is button-mashing. You also have to think about weapon swapping to get the most out of your UB. Again, not an issue, but you still think about it.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leprekan
it looks more like trying to protect your farm from new people than an actual concern for balance.
I'd like to see Save Yourselves! go, There's Nothing To Fear! go, Ursan Blessing as well, and to a lesser extent Seed of Life (with such a short duration it does require some player awareness to use it well). Essence of Celerity and Armour of Salvation also needs... something less. Grail of Might aren't that spectacular but should also be removed. I don't understand why an area has "elite" prefixed onto it when the only thing different about it is the amount of time you spend there. There are too many tools as our disposal to turn any area into a joke, it's absurd.

Concerning my greens, I don't consider selling my Stygian Wand for 1k much of a farm, or a few staves for 10kish, when I dump 30k a day on consumables to speed things up. I think the last time I was concerned about the amount of gold I had was when I didn't want to buy the gladiator's chest piece for my warrior because I didn't want his chest exposed so I saved up for Obsidian. That, or when Superior Absorption were 100k and were good.

leprekan

leprekan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posers and Wannabes [nubs]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
I'd like to see Save Yourselves! go, There's Nothing To Fear! go, Ursan Blessing as well, and to a lesser extent Seed of Life (with such a short duration it does require some player awareness to use it well). Essence of Celerity and Armour of Salvation also needs... something less. Grail of Might aren't that spectacular but should also be removed. I don't understand why an area has "elite" prefixed onto it when the only thing different about it is the amount of time you spend there. There are too many tools as our disposal to turn any area into a joke, it's absurd.

Concerning my greens, I don't consider selling my Stygian Wand for 1k much of a farm, or a few staves for 10kish, when I dump 30k a day on consumables to speed things up. I think the last time I was concerned about the amount of gold I had was when I didn't want to buy the gladiator's chest piece for my warrior because I didn't want his chest exposed so I saved up for Obsidian. That, or when Superior Absorption were 100k and were good.
Question still applies ... why? There isn't anything hard in gw to begin with. I have done h+h everything now even Duncan hm. And didn't UB him If a PvE ONLY skill helps Joe noob to be able to play more areas than he could before .. why nerf it? To keep elite areas elite so people can feel pro? UB is no worse than the generic OB tank standing around with the cookie cutters.

I am not attacking you .. I just do not grasp why you would care. You are not going to take Joe noob into that group of friends to begin with. Why does it matter if Joe noob finds others to do it with then? Anyone that is any good is already playing with friends/guild only or heroes.

Nerf consumables? LOL? Nobody makes ANYONE use them. Kind of nice to have a use for the 1000s of spare skill points we now have. If they made them less effective people wouldn't bother using them. Nerfing ANY PvE ONLY skill makes zero sense in a game where player x does not affect player y.

I didn't mean you were farming the greens .. they are the detritus from farming gems for armbraces. I stopped bothering when armbraces dropped below 200e.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leprekan
Question still applies ... why? There isn't anything hard in gw to begin with.
For some yes, for others, no. There are a number of people who find a lot of content in the game to be fairly difficult. Ursan Blessing allows players to succeed where they previously would've failed, not because they got better at the game, because a strong skill carried them through. I'd much rather a player works towards improving their ability to play than grinding their PvE skill to max rank.

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

And so you believe that if a player is incapable of gaining the needed skill to complete an elite zone he must forever be baned from it?

How about those on dial up that have lag issues and no voice chat? Should they also be baned because they can not match your skill lvl?


The Elite zones were not placed in GW to be accessed by only a few players, they were added as end game content for anyone that had completed the needed campain. They were meant to be harder than the last mission, but not so hard that it was impossible to beat for those that have less skill than the perfectly balanced Elite Guild Party of friends that took a month or more to figure out how to beat Mallyx without using some form of glitch.

Faer

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
And so you believe that if a player is incapable of gaining the needed skill to complete an elite zone he must forever be baned from it?
That's totally not what he said.

Look:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Ursan Blessing allows players to succeed where they previously would've failed, not because they got better at the game, because a strong skill carried them through.
In other words, Racthoh wants to see people win because they learn, not because they find the mystical key or the silver platter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
How about those on dial up that have lag issues and no voice chat? Should they also be baned because they can not match your skill lvl?
I often play on sub-dialup connections with no issues. I don't know where people get the idea that a 56k connection makes GW entirely unplayable, or even any more "difficult" than it is on DSL or Cable or like, T3.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
The Elite zones were not placed in GW to be accessed by only a few players
Not even commenting on that one.

unienaule

unienaule

I dunt even get "Retired"

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
How about those on dial up that have lag issues and no voice chat? Should they also be baned because they can not match your skill lvl?
Ursan blessing removes lag? Wow, it's more overpowered than I thought!

If you're sitting there doing nothing b/c of lag, you're still sitting there doing nothing, just with ursan blessing on you.

Also, are you seriously trying to argue that Mallyx was designed to be beatable by the masses?

tanis616

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

[SMS]

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by leprekan
Having a link to your greens for sale from DoA ... is somebody worried noobs might be able to farm them too? DoA was cookie cutter 6 months ago when I got bored with it and moved on. UB won't make that any worse. No offense, but given the volume of greens you have for sale .. it looks more like trying to protect your farm from new people than an actual concern for balance.
This is not the point, we dont care that you guys are making money good for you. But UB is overpowered. You can beat an ELITE mission with 1 skill. One. Obvisouly you dont see the point.

trobinson97

trobinson97

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Guildless :(

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanis616
This is not the point, we dont care that you guys are making money good for you. But UB is overpowered. You can beat an ELITE mission with 1 skill. One. Obvisouly you dont see the point.
That one skill replaces your bar with another bar. You also need monks with a lot more than that one skill. Aggro, knowledge of area, target priority etc. are not discarded either I imagine.

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by trobinson97
That one skill replaces your bar with another bar. You also need monks with a lot more than that one skill. Aggro, knowledge of area, target priority etc. are not discarded either I imagine.
How is it that you need monks more when you get a couple hundred more max hps and another +15 or +20 armor?

And when you get an AoE knockdown/interrupt to prevent damage against you?

And when you get a speed boost to get away from whatever is threatening you?

Seriously... tell me.

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by unienaule
Ursan blessing removes lag? Wow, it's more overpowered than I thought!

If you're sitting there doing nothing b/c of lag, you're still sitting there doing nothing, just with ursan blessing on you.

Also, are you seriously trying to argue that Mallyx was designed to be beatable by the masses?
No ursan does not eliminate lag...... it was just to make a point you missed.


Do you believe that only 5% of the total player base should be able to beat Mallyx? Why? Because it makes you feel special????

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faer
I often play on sub-dialup connections with no issues. I don't know where people get the idea that a 56k connection makes GW entirely unplayable, or even any more "difficult" than it is on DSL or Cable or like, T3.
Back in alpha, we had three people sharing a 33k connection with no problems. I wouldn't suggest it now, but that's more due to the size of map downloads than due to the gameplay itself.

Most online games only require a small amount of actual data transfer - I find that the fact that the data has to go across the Pacific and back impacts on gameplay more than the connection 'speed' (more technically a connection rate, since the data still moves at the same speed, it's just that with 'faster' connections you can have more data moving at once).

Razz Thom

Razz Thom

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Three Feet Below Sea [LevL]

D/Mo

the point is it makes you somehow feel less "1337" if someone else can go where you have been. it has no bearing on you so just let it go. leet snobs sux anyway.

trobinson97

trobinson97

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Guildless :(

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by cebalrai
How is it that you need monks more when you get a couple hundred more max hps and another +15 or +20 armor?

And when you get an AoE knockdown/interrupt to prevent damage against you?

And when you get a speed boost to get away from whatever is threatening you?

Seriously... tell me.

UB has no heals. Or maybe you're trying to tell me that you can now do DoA with no healing? Seriously, are you trying to tell me that? Also, let's not pretend that everyone that everyone has max Norn rank. Sure you can get up to plus 200, but you have to have that title maxed. Even then, you will still need to be healed, and you will still have to be coordinated.

IF everyone uses Ursan Rage at the same time, the target will still only be knocked down once, there's still 9 seconds you're going to be getting wailed on until you can knock down again. You would have to chain your Rages to maximize the knockdown effect and that would be making an argument that UB takes strategy and tactics, i.e. skill, surely you don't want to do that.

There's also the fact that your target has to be adjacent to you to even be affected, so surely the ai isn't going to be standing waiting on you to come knock it down. They will be hitting you or someone in your party, and someone will have to heal that damage. You also have to get those hexes and conditions removed (especially since that speed buff from Force is nothing if you're crippled and running with your back to the enemy).

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

I think what you've missed there is that the question was "How is it that you need monks more?" Emphasis mine.

Cebalrai didn't claim that the bears didn't require support. He seems to be objecting to an apparent claim from you that bears require more support... which is not actually what you said either.

To be honest, I think you're both misinterpreting each other without taking the time to read what the other actually said.

trobinson97

trobinson97

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Guildless :(

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
I think what you've missed there is that the question was "How is it that you need monks more?" Emphasis mine.

Cebalrai didn't claim that the bears didn't require support. He seems to be objecting to an apparent claim from you that bears require more support... which is not actually what you said either.

To be honest, I think you're both misinterpreting each other without taking the time to read what the other actually said.

I think you're right, thanks for clarification.

Mesmer in Need

Mesmer in Need

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

[ToA]

Guild wars is a game, something meant for pleasure. If people have fun while using UB, then it makes the game that much better for them. People who favor professions like mesmer and assassin would have probably never gotten the chance to finish the deep or do doa. Now they can do this. Before GW:EN, placed like doa took at least 20 minutes of planning and careful play to do. Many people don't have the skill, time or patience for this. Anet nerfs pve skills to make the game more "challenging", but not everybody's idea of fun is having enemies plow you. I'm in no way promoting lazy play, but it's supposed to be fun, not frustrating. Skills like UB make it less frustrating for those people. And besides, its pve. Playing pve how you want is by no means ruining other people's day. My vote is to just leave it alone.

As a side note, I believe Rachthoh is the biggest hypocrite of this thread. He is complaining how UB is ruining pve. Have you ever looked at this guy's fow clearing pictures? 6 paragons spamming TNTF and SY! with all the gw:en consumables working their magic. Rachthoh got legendary vanquisher before gw:en even came out. Oh, how the (somewhat) mighty have fallen.

Burst Cancel

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

Well, the difference between Racthoh and the up-and-coming keyboard karate-choppers is that Racthoh needed a real team and more than one skill to win. The issue here isn't whether something is strictly better or worse. The issue is whether something is too good for the amount of effort required to use it.

I like fighting game examples, so I'm going to use another one here: Guilty Gear features many combos that inflict in excess of 80+% of your health. However, these aren't considered 'broken' because they're often especially hard to setup or execute. In other words, it takes a lot of effort to get that kind of effect, and hence, such effect is not overpowered. It would be an entirely different matter if, like Ursan Blessing, these combos were available with one button press.

arcanemacabre

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Do you believe that only 5% of the total player base should be able to beat Mallyx? Why? Because it makes you feel special????
I believe that, and I am in the 95% - I can't beat Mallyx. Well, I can't beat him now. I have no problem with there existing areas in the game that I don't have the skill, coordination, experience, whatever to defeat it. That is a goal worth working for, not obsidian armor, grind titles, wealth, and other things that that require no gameplay skill to acquire. I agree wholeheartedly with what Racthoh is saying.

The skill you gain as a player being greater than the skills your character uses is what brought me to Guild Wars in the first place. It's fun beating a mission, but it's a lot more fun to beat a mission after having lost it. If there was nothing left in the game to challenge me, I would be done with it - it would become boring. I honestly think that's true for everyone.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need
As a side note, I believe Rachthoh is the biggest hypocrite of this thread. He is complaining how UB is ruining pve. Have you ever looked at this guy's fow clearing pictures? 6 paragons spamming TNTF and SY! with all the gw:en consumables working their magic. Rachthoh got legendary vanquisher before gw:en even came out. Oh, how the (somewhat) mighty have fallen.
Firstly six paragons with TNTF would just be a huge waste of skill slots when every paragon is running at least 12 leadership, ditto for SY considering the lack of physical shutdown in FoW; we hit the impalers before they drop Dust Trap and usually spread out for Blurred.

Second, by no means are the consumables and pve only skills necessary for us to complete FoW. It's FoW, I've been there so many times I know all of the patrols, popups, group compositions, you name it off by heart. And hell, cleared every quest with a group of three people with prophecies only skills (Skull Cracking one second casts before it got buffed to 1/2, boo ya ). The use of PvE only skills and consumables merely speed up the process allowing us to play recklessly in a zone that almost put me to sleep tonight (but I had the heroes, I can't exactly take a quick snooze ).

Ursan to me is fine in that sense; when a player is fully capable of displaying the skill required to complete a task go ahead and abuse what you want. What I can only hope is that once players get tired of the bear they'll attempt what they resorted to Ursaning for with a more balanced approach. At least try and apply what you learned about the zone after you've had your fun with it. We took the opposite route; cleared it with the more balanced approach first before exploring the possibilities.

Think about it this way; they're well aware of what PvE skills are allowing players to do. If they kill every PvE skill responsible for the current state of 'difficult' content those of us who took the time to study the area will be able to continue playing the same zone as a result of past experiences. I would wager that most Ursaners (I would guess based on some of the silly things I've read in the recent skill update thread) would just outright stop whatever they were using the bear for if the skill is touched negatively. This is what I fear; the people who will immediately quit because they don't know how to apply what they learned and adapt. Personally I would much rather be with the group that adjusts than the group that sits around until someone else figures it out for me.

Cacheelma

Cacheelma

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Ascalon Union

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need
Guild wars is a game, something meant for pleasure. If people have fun while using UB, then it makes the game that much better for them. People who favor professions like mesmer and assassin would have probably never gotten the chance to finish the deep or do doa. Now they can do this. Before GW:EN, placed like doa took at least 20 minutes of planning and careful play to do. Many people don't have the skill, time or patience for this. Anet nerfs pve skills to make the game more "challenging", but not everybody's idea of fun is having enemies plow you. I'm in no way promoting lazy play, but it's supposed to be fun, not frustrating. Skills like UB make it less frustrating for those people. And besides, its pve. Playing pve how you want is by no means ruining other people's day. My vote is to just leave it alone.
I bet some people had fun with armbrace duping (or "insert any exploits here") too. It enabled them to obtain some items they could only dream about normally. So, was it a mistake that Anet fixed it?

I, for one, would want a "god mode" button for my little brother too. It would make him very happy (without me paying for GWEN so he can use UB, so I'd be happy too). Maybe Anet can just make that happen too? I mean, why not? It would make the game THAT MUCH better for him.