Nov nerf....oh lord
Azaya
I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to make a new build, but that's not really the issue since it's not just one build that got wrecked. BLS and HotO are basic skills that many people use, in multiple builds. So yeah, make a new build.. make six or eight while you're at it.
Kaida the Heartless
I think the fact that everyone was using the skills says something about thier nature.
I've found the changes to not be very significant at all. I've already found 2 assassin builds that totally crush the old chains, and I'm still working to improve them to be even better. I'm not really missing HotO or BLS.
I've found the changes to not be very significant at all. I've already found 2 assassin builds that totally crush the old chains, and I'm still working to improve them to be even better. I'm not really missing HotO or BLS.
Magikarp
i can see why they feel so upset about the nerf, but really, just make a new build. look how bad monks and warriors have been smashed in the past. look at rits and paragons.
Sir Pandra Pierva
People don't wanna change, but however the dmg in HotO really is overkill.
However I am getting sick of some of the nerfs that need to be done but aren't and those that shouldn't be done but are.
But I picked up an old sin build recently, the flouring blades one from WIKI and it still works wonders in RA AB TA.
However I am getting sick of some of the nerfs that need to be done but aren't and those that shouldn't be done but are.
But I picked up an old sin build recently, the flouring blades one from WIKI and it still works wonders in RA AB TA.
Sakura Az
I actualy started using AoD now.. came up wiht a chain that works and while it lacks a KD and doesn't always have enought power to kill a target outright. The mobility and versitality is what i've fallen in love with on it.
I was messing around with builds last night and came up with one use florish for the elite.. the build lacks deep wound.. but it was fun to do the combo and then go straight back thru the combo cause of florish.
oh and someone try this out..
[skill]Mark of Instability[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Falling Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill]
I was messing around with builds last night and came up with one use florish for the elite.. the build lacks deep wound.. but it was fun to do the combo and then go straight back thru the combo cause of florish.
oh and someone try this out..
[skill]Mark of Instability[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Falling Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill]
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura Az
I actualy started using AoD now.. came up wiht a chain that works and while it lacks a KD and doesn't always have enought power to kill a target outright. The mobility and versitality is what i've fallen in love with on it.
I was messing around with builds last night and came up with one use florish for the elite.. the build lacks deep wound.. but it was fun to do the combo and then go straight back thru the combo cause of florish.
oh and someone try this out..
[skill]Mark of Instability[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Falling Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill] The build you just posted is not knew, the only thing new in it is Falling Lotus strike.
Builds working with Mark of instability, appear every couple of months through out time =P
I was messing around with builds last night and came up with one use florish for the elite.. the build lacks deep wound.. but it was fun to do the combo and then go straight back thru the combo cause of florish.
oh and someone try this out..
[skill]Mark of Instability[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Falling Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill] The build you just posted is not knew, the only thing new in it is Falling Lotus strike.
Builds working with Mark of instability, appear every couple of months through out time =P
Sakura Az
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
The build you just posted is not knew, the only thing new in it is Falling Lotus strike.
Builds working with Mark of instability, appear every couple of months through out time =P It's "new" by the way, not "knew"^.^
and yes i'm perfectly aware its not a new build, just no one has mentioned it so i figured i'd post it. besides before BLS was changed to a lead it went Mark>BLS>TF>FS>BoS for the normal mark chain.
Builds working with Mark of instability, appear every couple of months through out time =P It's "new" by the way, not "knew"^.^
and yes i'm perfectly aware its not a new build, just no one has mentioned it so i figured i'd post it. besides before BLS was changed to a lead it went Mark>BLS>TF>FS>BoS for the normal mark chain.
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura Az
It's "new" by the way, not "knew"^.^
and yes i'm perfectly aware its not a new build, just no one has mentioned it so i figured i'd post it. besides before BLS was changed to a lead it went Mark>BLS>TF>FS>BoS for the normal mark chain. Excuse the typo's im not in a pleasant mood today, and thus my spelling suffers.
The first mark of build I ever saw was
BLS TF FS Horns, and you got dual kd'd.
and yes i'm perfectly aware its not a new build, just no one has mentioned it so i figured i'd post it. besides before BLS was changed to a lead it went Mark>BLS>TF>FS>BoS for the normal mark chain. Excuse the typo's im not in a pleasant mood today, and thus my spelling suffers.
The first mark of build I ever saw was
BLS TF FS Horns, and you got dual kd'd.
Splitisoda
Exactly how many builds did assassins that really did heck lot of damage besides SP and AOD?
Omniclasm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
Exactly how many builds did assassins that really did heck lot of damage besides SP and AOD?
Any assassin build that wanted to....
Turtle222
soj sin did a lot of damage
but now they really are weak
but now they really are weak
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
Exactly how many builds did assassins that really did heck lot of damage besides SP and AOD?
Many, you can find a build that does a "heck of a lot" of damage on any class.
And if you do not find it on PvX wiki, make your own its possible.
AoD sin's existed since Factions release.
There were an ass chucnk of build that Did alot of damage than SP.
Splitisoda lets sit down and have a small chat *takes a chair*
Just because a build can do damage, doesn't mean it will be taken.
People want efficiency, and some of this comes by using Over Powered Synergies of skills, thus an over powered build.
There were many and are many builds that are not SP or AoD builds but do a fair bit of damage.
There just not as efficient.
And if you do not find it on PvX wiki, make your own its possible.
AoD sin's existed since Factions release.
There were an ass chucnk of build that Did alot of damage than SP.
Splitisoda lets sit down and have a small chat *takes a chair*
Just because a build can do damage, doesn't mean it will be taken.
People want efficiency, and some of this comes by using Over Powered Synergies of skills, thus an over powered build.
There were many and are many builds that are not SP or AoD builds but do a fair bit of damage.
There just not as efficient.
Sqube
Bowstring Badass: For your AoD shock build, why not just run TF instead of DB --> Impale? I know you get less damage, but you get deep wound and increased degen.
fireflyry and Cloud5646: Yes. The killing of the instagib sin is the killing of the entire class, everywhere, forever. Can I have some of your stuff when you leave?
In terms of builds that did a lot of damage... most, if not all, sin dagger chains can do a ton of damage. That was never an issue. The issue was getting to your opponent, squeezing in an IAS, and making sure that your opponent couldn't get away from you before you finished him off. Before Nightfall, that's why you saw so many AoD sins with Shock and/or HotO. If you didn't run one of those skills, your opponent would just run away from your spike.
Then Nightfall came out, and made sure that you got to your opponent and they couldn't get away. Fit in an IAS, and wham! 123456Kill. Killing that, ideally, will provide more originality so that more people will have more nifty ideas and stuff like that. I know I had a totally random (and probably craptacular) idea where a support 'sin could use Siphon Strength to severely weaken melee spikes.
Hopefully, once the spike-sin is buried (or made a lot more difficult to run) and Deadly Paradox is neutered (if you don't think this is necessary, [email protected]), we'll see more interesting builds for 'sins in high-level PvP. Until then, get ready for a lot more A/Mo SoJ, I guess.
fireflyry and Cloud5646: Yes. The killing of the instagib sin is the killing of the entire class, everywhere, forever. Can I have some of your stuff when you leave?
In terms of builds that did a lot of damage... most, if not all, sin dagger chains can do a ton of damage. That was never an issue. The issue was getting to your opponent, squeezing in an IAS, and making sure that your opponent couldn't get away from you before you finished him off. Before Nightfall, that's why you saw so many AoD sins with Shock and/or HotO. If you didn't run one of those skills, your opponent would just run away from your spike.
Then Nightfall came out, and made sure that you got to your opponent and they couldn't get away. Fit in an IAS, and wham! 123456Kill. Killing that, ideally, will provide more originality so that more people will have more nifty ideas and stuff like that. I know I had a totally random (and probably craptacular) idea where a support 'sin could use Siphon Strength to severely weaken melee spikes.
Hopefully, once the spike-sin is buried (or made a lot more difficult to run) and Deadly Paradox is neutered (if you don't think this is necessary, [email protected]), we'll see more interesting builds for 'sins in high-level PvP. Until then, get ready for a lot more A/Mo SoJ, I guess.
ensoriki
The problem was not squeezing in an IAS
As using an IAS before Nightfall was rather uncommon.
As using an IAS before Nightfall was rather uncommon.
Magikarp
no Ensoriki, thats IS the problem. without the IAS, the entire sp sin idea wouldnt be nearly as viable. it was the rapid fire 12345 design powered by the IAS that makes it so darn strong. before you can react, its all over.
Master Ketsu
For anyone who thinks the problem isnt tiger stance on the A/W bar, Go roll and A/W shadow prison without an IAS. See for yourself how often your spike goes through unhindered.
Splitisoda
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Many, you can find a build that does a "heck of a lot" of damage on any class.
And if you do not find it on PvX wiki, make your own its possible.
AoD sin's existed since Factions release.
There were an ass chucnk of build that Did alot of damage than SP.
Splitisoda lets sit down and have a small chat *takes a chair*
Just because a build can do damage, doesn't mean it will be taken.
People want efficiency, and some of this comes by using Over Powered Synergies of skills, thus an over powered build.
There were many and are many builds that are not SP or AoD builds but do a fair bit of damage.
There just not as efficient. Well, what happened was i did create a good build, but what happened was i didnt have a self heal (well sort of) It was high damage, but it just had so many skills in it, that i couldnt heal.
And if you do not find it on PvX wiki, make your own its possible.
AoD sin's existed since Factions release.
There were an ass chucnk of build that Did alot of damage than SP.
Splitisoda lets sit down and have a small chat *takes a chair*
Just because a build can do damage, doesn't mean it will be taken.
People want efficiency, and some of this comes by using Over Powered Synergies of skills, thus an over powered build.
There were many and are many builds that are not SP or AoD builds but do a fair bit of damage.
There just not as efficient. Well, what happened was i did create a good build, but what happened was i didnt have a self heal (well sort of) It was high damage, but it just had so many skills in it, that i couldnt heal.
Splitisoda
Oh and please oh please ANET dont nerf the,i think it was lion stance? I dunno whichever one that gives 33% attack faster for str. I mean, its not JUST used in SP, in fact i remember what i used to do was i made a build that recharged so fast i could use maybe 3 of the skills without in the duratio it lasts. Sides its only 5 sec without str.
placebo overdose
really sins deserved it and i could care less so yeah w/e its not like they are obsolete i know the horrors of being creative is intimidating but give it a go you might find something nice in the other 200 skills that have not seen daylight in the past year
Bowstring Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqube
Quote: Originally Posted by placebo overdose
really sins deserved it and i could care less so yeah w/e its not like they are obsolete i know the horrors of being creative is intimidating but give it a go you might find something nice in the other 200 skills that have not seen daylight in the past year
No reason to own the crap out of HoTo it was not that strong anyway the kd wasn't that consistant really.
Perhaps you should spend more time on your assassin if you are having a hard time activating the condition on that skill. The mousewheel will zoom your camera out so you can see who your opponent is standing next to. That may help some.
Quote:
That is what I was referring too.No reason to own the crap out of HoTo it was not that strong anyway the kd wasn't that consistant really.
Quote:
Actually, I have a decent concept of what game balance is. I've said it many times if you would take the time to read. The knockdown is imbalanced because you can get your entire combo off before they have a chance to stand up.|
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
Another QQ thread about HotO.
The skill was broken. At the most, it should have +15 damage at 15 mastery. I can't believe that people are complaining about the "conditionality" of this skill. Stop trying to attack people that are standing next to other people. This condition is about as easily met as the <50% in "finish him". It's so easily met it's nearly non-existant. You are just mad you get kd'd every time you get hit with this skill. This skill was not broken compare it to Death Blossom if people were looking for damage rather then a kd skill that required more then pressing 1 then following it up with something. So yeah you = /fail at imba in skills go play assassin more then come back kthxbai nub...
Kaida the Heartless
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
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Perhaps you should spend more time on your assassin if you are having a hard time activating the condition on that skill. The mousewheel will zoom your camera out so you can see who your opponent is standing next to. That may help some.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
...compare it to Death Blossom if people were looking for damage rather then a kd skill that required more then pressing 1 then following it up with something...
Also, it looks like you are supporting my arguement by saying HotO is meant as a KD, wheras Death Blossom is better suited for higher damage? Is this correct?
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
Actually they are correct.
I mean that the skill was too overpowered before the nerf. It was overpowered because it was used mostly (from my own experience) in Shadow Prison builds, which means you could teleport onto a foe who was nowhere near anyone else, and they couldn't move into range within time (66% slow), so the knockdown always worked. Before the nerf, HotO had: 1. Good Damage 2. Easy to meet KD condition 3. Knockdown during instagib combo Now the skill has: 1. Easy to meet KD condition 2. Knockdown during instagib combo A bit more fair, imho. If you wan't your knockdown, now you have to sacrifice a bit of damage to get it. It's only fair. I also stated that the damage could be a bit higher than they mentioned, but it still needed to be knocked a bit. If you expect to have your HotO reverted, ask the Devs to hit tigerstance instead. This will make it so that you cannot activate your entire combo while your foe is defensless on the floor. Also, I am only monk secondary for a nice Hardres (if I even need one), silly. I run curses. :] So ANet burn Tiger Stance then. HotO makes a lot of other builds viable besides the SP gimmick so that's why I feel it's a failed nerf. Besides, with BLS being hit as well I doubt the viability of many SP builds anyway. As for Curses... we think alike. I used it for Rend Enchantments up until now but post-nerf also for Rigor Mortis. SERIOUSLY! If it wasn't for the teleporting W/N would do a better job at spiking nowadays 
MercenaryK
I'm just taking a wiiiiiiiiiild stab at this, but there are other ways besides SP to get to your opponent, and if Mobeious Strike was taken as your Elite, HoTO could be chained over and over in a KD chain. Could that be why HoTO had it's damaged lowered? With lower damage even for a dual attack the opponent has a higher chance (than before) to get out of the chain (as Mobeious <50%)
And why not take Flurry over Tiger Stance? Flurry has the faster recharge, same energy cost. The 25% less damage isn't even much for max damage daggers. Sqube
Splitisoda: Dude(tte)... 5 seconds of 33% IAS is enough to kill a person. More importantly, if you can acquire that without putting any points into an attribute, it will be used by sins to spike. That spike will screw with the meta. Like I said somewhere (all these discussions are making me misplace my previous comments), all the IAS skills need to be reworked so that they don't last long enough at 0 in a given attribute to run a full spike.
Bowstring Badass: Fair enough. MercenaryK: There are other ways besides SP to get to your opponent, but a hex (giving you access to the black line), a 20 second recharge and a 66% snare meant that it was the best option. Also, the HotO chain is hardly new, so I don't think that's why it got the axe. I think the bonus damage, combined with preventing your opponent to react, is what got it brought down. High-end PvP is all about maximizing everything you do. Using Flurry... just doesn't. Even though 25% of your base damage isn't that much, it's that much less damage than you would have ordinarily done.
Kaida the Heartless
In fact, it's 25% less damage you're doing. :]
Excluding certain +damage skills here and there.
Bowstring Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
In fact, it's 25% less damage you're doing. :]
Excluding certain +damage skills here and there. The skill is not meant as a kd really it is to unreliable so quit twisting my words  .
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
In fact, it's 25% less damage you're doing. :]
Excluding certain +damage skills here and there. We've been over this before. This 'here and there' you're referring to should read 'every dagger attack known to man'.
Jaigoda
No, its actually 'every attack skill known to man.'
wsmcasey
25% of a possible 17 is better than say 25% of max sword, axe, hammer or scythe. Flurry isn't a bad option since a sin is spiking a single target. If its only 25% of base damage lost. Thats a possible 3.4 damage loss if you get lucky to hit with the highest attack of 17 base damage. If your unlucky and get with the minimum base damage of 7, then you only lose 1.4. That equates to a damage lose ranging from 5.6 - 13.6 over a 4 chain attack. Thats not much of a loss on a single target.
Kaida the Heartless
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Flurry
Originally Posted by Guildwiki
Quote: |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
The skill is not meant as a kd really it is to unreliable so quit twisting my words.
Horns of the Ox isn't meant as a knockdown?!
Sqube
wsmcasey: It. Is. Still. A. Loss. If you've never been in a situation where 14 health was the difference between living and dying, you haven't played enough.
Hell, in PvE there are a fair amount of times where I've survived with 8 health. You simply don't purposefully cause less damage unless there's no other alternative. Bowstring Badass: As far as HotO's concerned... I'm gonna have to go with Kaida and say lolwut?
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqube
Hell, in PvE there are a fair amount of times where I've survived with 8 health. You simply don't purposefully cause less damage unless there's no other alternative. Bowstring Badass: As far as HotO's concerned... I'm gonna have to go with Kaida and say lolwut? >.> Indeed! a simple extra 8 damage can mean Life or Death!
MercenaryK
I see now why Tiger Stance > Flurry. If you're going all out to cause damage, why would you begin to pinch pennies?
Sqube
Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryK
I see now why Tiger Stance > Flurry. If you're going all out to cause damage, why would you begin to pinch pennies?
Exactly. And that's why I maintain that, if ANet is insistent on killing the SP sin (and it sure as hell looks like they are), then they need to change every IAS skill that allows you to have 4-5 seconds of IAS with no points invested in an attribute and no negative side-effects (recharge times don't count since you're limited by SP's recharge no matter what).
That, in my opinion, is the only way to stop it. Everything else just means people will start substituting different skills until you neuter all the dagger attacks to the point that you start negatively impacting PvE players. X Cytherea X
Agreed. ANet should revert every skill on the SP bar to its state at Nightfall release, and instead nerf all IAS so you get 1 duration if you have 0 attribute investment.
none of them were imbalanced at any point EXCEPT when coupled with an IAS. in detail: SP: 5e 1/4c 20r ED: 10e 1c 10r BLS: offhand that requires hex, gives 18e at 13cs Hoto: 30ish damage BSS: 5e, 30ish damage ahhh those were the days ;_; and put trampling ox back to its gw:en release state too
LifesRestorer
Quote:
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
Agreed. ANet should revert every skill on the SP bar to its state at Nightfall release, and instead nerf all IAS so you get 1 duration if you have 0 attribute investment.
none of them were imbalanced at any point EXCEPT when coupled with an IAS. in detail: SP: 5e 1/4c 20r ED: 10e 1c 10r BLS: offhand that requires hex, gives 18e at 13cs Hoto: 30ish damage BSS: 5e, 30ish damage ahhh those were the days ;_; and put trampling ox back to its gw:en release state too you make me lol. while we're at it lets put gale back to 5e, bring back avatar of grenth but it was too weak before so make it stronger and oh yeah just make wearying strike description 'target foe dies' X Cytherea X
^good ideas
oh yea i forgot, SP had a minimum 4 duration and BoS had an 80 damage cap for awhile Sqube
X Cytherea X: I don't think every skill needs to be reverted; now that the cat's out of the bag on SP sins, you can't make people forget that knowledge. It just so happens that I agree with you on Expose Defenses, but that's another story entirely. What ANet did to that skill was tragic, plain and simple. It was a full extra second on whatever you were planning to do. That meant people knew you were coming, you could call it, alert monks, etc.
9 sec @ 12 DA? 25 sec recharge? That's a travesty. I'd rather bring Mending with no points invested.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
As for Curses... we think alike. I used it for Rend Enchantments up until now but post-nerf also for Rigor Mortis
CURSES! CURSES!
fireflyry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqube
Everything else just means people will start substituting different skills until you neuter all the dagger attacks to the point that you start negatively impacting PvE players.
My thoughts exactly.
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