Revert the Pets-Have-No-Corpses
A lot of people seem to feel very strongly about this nerf. So here is a place to discuss it without having to slog through the off-topic mess that is the update feedback thread or put pet-related comments in the SR topic.
My personal opinion is that it should be reverted.
1. It makes no sense. Everything but pets has a body, wtf?
2. I cannot see any benefit to balance coming from this nerf. Can anyone explain the rationale behind it?
3. It screws PvE pretty hard, especially barrage/pet teams.
4. [edit: Blackhawk has verified that untamed pets do leave corpses, so you can still traversal. Doesn't that make this even stranger though? One minute a lynx can leave a body, but the next minute it can't?] I have a strong suspicion that it might make Tyrian Explorer totally impossible, since you need to corpse-teleport using untamed pets to reach certain places. Has anyone checked if untamed pets still leave corpses?
Discuss.
Revert the Pet-Corpse Nerf
Chthon
gone
if pets don't leave corpses, why should they give energy from death? I guess you need to balance that as well. (right Izzy?)
Vinraith
1. It's an action fantasy RPG, realism has nothing to do with its mechanics.
2. It's a change to resolve PvP issues, you'd have to ask a PvPer for details (I play PvE pretty much exclusively, with a necro main).
3. No, it really doesn't. If you need a pet corpse that badly to make your necro build work, you should be using a different build in that area.
4. Anet's stated repeatedly (and I have no reason to disbelieve) that the transversal trick isn't necessary to 100% the map. If there's an issue here, though, the fix is simply to add a bit mroe leeway to the Prophecies map to resolve it.
2. It's a change to resolve PvP issues, you'd have to ask a PvPer for details (I play PvE pretty much exclusively, with a necro main).
3. No, it really doesn't. If you need a pet corpse that badly to make your necro build work, you should be using a different build in that area.
4. Anet's stated repeatedly (and I have no reason to disbelieve) that the transversal trick isn't necessary to 100% the map. If there's an issue here, though, the fix is simply to add a bit mroe leeway to the Prophecies map to resolve it.
kovey00
I never had to do any corpse exploiting to get any of my gmc titles, and the only pve teams this nerf screws is The barrage/pet build, which in my opinion is not a big deal. But, I do have to agree that pets not having corpses does not make any sense. But like 99% of necro nerfs, its caused by pvp balance, and in return, pve gets screwed.
Tatile
From the Wiki update:
So untamed pets should leave exploitable corpses. I do think this should be changed though, if a party member or ally leaves an exploitable corpse, why not Mittens the Melandru's Stalker? It doesn't make much sense.
Trouble is, I can see this exploitable nerf being escalated. No corpses from party members or allies is definetly NOT something I want to see, and I rarely run an MM build.
Quote:
| Player Pets: no longer leave exploitable corpses. |
Trouble is, I can see this exploitable nerf being escalated. No corpses from party members or allies is definetly NOT something I want to see, and I rarely run an MM build.
Blackhawk
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Originally Posted by Chthon
Revert the Pets-Have-No-Corpses
A lot of people seem to feel very strongly about this nerf. So here is a place to discuss it without having to slog through the off-topic mess that is the update feedback thread or put pet-related comments in the SR topic. My personal opinion is that it should be reverted. 1. It makes no sense. Everything but pets has a body, wtf? 2. I cannot see any benefit to balance coming from this nerf. Can anyone explain the rationale behind it? 3. It screws PvE pretty hard, especially barrage/pet teams. 4. I have a strong suspicion that it might make Tyrian Explorer totally impossible, since you need to corpse-teleport using untamed pets to reach certain places. Has anyone checked if untamed pets still leave corpses? Discuss. |
lyra_song
My problem with it is that its a screwed up EXCEPTION to a existing rules of the game thats designed to patch up an inherent problem thats with NECROMANCERS and not Rangers.
1) All fleshy creatures bleed, they get diseased, they get set on fire, etc.
2) All fleshy creatures leave exploitable corpses.
3) Animals are fleshy creatures and therefore bleed, get diseased (see 1)
4) Animals are fleshy creatures and leave exploitable corpses (go kill the next lvl 5 wolf you run into)
5) Players pets are all animals
Now because of the PvP abuse, player pets (all animals) follow rule 1, but not rule 2.
So either: remove 3 and 4 to make it consistent or revert it, and fix the Necromancer instead. Or you can remove 5 and make player pets ethereal and exempt from rule 1 (fire/cripple/deep wound/blind is ok)
1) All fleshy creatures bleed, they get diseased, they get set on fire, etc.
2) All fleshy creatures leave exploitable corpses.
3) Animals are fleshy creatures and therefore bleed, get diseased (see 1)
4) Animals are fleshy creatures and leave exploitable corpses (go kill the next lvl 5 wolf you run into)
5) Players pets are all animals
Now because of the PvP abuse, player pets (all animals) follow rule 1, but not rule 2.
So either: remove 3 and 4 to make it consistent or revert it, and fix the Necromancer instead. Or you can remove 5 and make player pets ethereal and exempt from rule 1 (fire/cripple/deep wound/blind is ok)
Beren985
Tyrian explorer is not at all unreachable with this change, since there is a BIG leeway in that continent (a friend of mine got the 100% before even reaching Hell's Precipice, simply by careful wallhugging). The trick helped but is not really necessary.
And I think the only rationale after this change is that Izzy didn't like Barrage/Pet teams, so he nerfed the Barrage and the Pet corpses for MM. But personally I couldn't care less about this adjustment.
And I think the only rationale after this change is that Izzy didn't like Barrage/Pet teams, so he nerfed the Barrage and the Pet corpses for MM. But personally I couldn't care less about this adjustment.
October Jade
There were three places I used Necrotic Traversal to explore, but none of them used animals, feral or tame.
1) Dunes of Despair (exploit enemies)
2) Frost Gate (exploit Rurik)
3) The Wilds (exploit Evennia)
Turns out the third one was pretty worthless anyway; it didn't increase the counter. Only use it if you are desperate and don't know where else to go.
As did I. Judging by the size of that map, there's probably a full percent or more of leeway in the title.
1) Dunes of Despair (exploit enemies)
2) Frost Gate (exploit Rurik)
3) The Wilds (exploit Evennia)
Turns out the third one was pretty worthless anyway; it didn't increase the counter. Only use it if you are desperate and don't know where else to go.
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Originally Posted by Beren985
a friend of mine got the 100% before even reaching Hell's Precipice, simply by careful wallhugging
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lakatz
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Originally Posted by Chthon
Revert the Pets-Have-No-Corpses...I have a strong suspicion that it might make Tyrian Explorer totally impossible, since you need to corpse-teleport using untamed pets to reach certain places. Has anyone checked if untamed pets still leave corpses?
Discuss. |
Saraphim
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Originally Posted by lakatz
Where are these places that require untamed pets? I have my Legendary GMC and never NT'd into an untamed pet.
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I'm not bothered about this to be honest, if you're a ranger playing with a pet (as I do) and not using it as a corpse factory then this shouldn't matter. However, from the standpoint of the internal logic of the game, it makes no sense whatsoever, see Lyra's post above.
So I am
/signed for pets leaving an exploitable corpse, as they are fleshy creatures.
But not because it ruins one cookie cutter Tombs team build.
lakatz
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Originally Posted by Saraphim
However, from the standpoint of the internal logic of the game, it makes no sense whatsoever, see Lyra's post above.
So I am /signed for pets leaving an exploitable corpse, as they are fleshy creatures. But not because it ruins one cookie cutter Tombs team build. |
Elrien Silentfoot
Well, if they insist on making this bad decision, I'd like to offer an alternative :
Have pets leave exploitable corpses, but have them also not affect SR.
That would, at least, leave B/P runs more or less intact (orders necro can BR/BiP the MM) while still closing whatever apparently unknown pvp exploit is waiting around.
It's still nice to play a game that's internally consistent. I've stopped playing other games when rules were added arbitrarily that broke the concept of cause and effect.
This is uncertain from my perspective. No one seems to know yet why this change was made.
Ever done a B/P run as MM?
The point is that minions die *really* fast there. Using pets as fuel was the way to keep enough minions up to protect the other players. I fully expect that until this change is reversed, the MM in the team just got bumped out of the roster.
Correct. I've also mapped tyria 100% and my main doesn't even have necrotic traversal in the first place.
Have pets leave exploitable corpses, but have them also not affect SR.
That would, at least, leave B/P runs more or less intact (orders necro can BR/BiP the MM) while still closing whatever apparently unknown pvp exploit is waiting around.
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Originally Posted by Vinraith
1. It's an action fantasy RPG, realism has nothing to do with its mechanics.
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Quote:
| 2. It's a change to resolve PvP issues, you'd have to ask a PvPer for details (I play PvE pretty much exclusively, with a necro main). |
Quote:
| 3. No, it really doesn't. If you need a pet corpse that badly to make your necro build work, you should be using a different build in that area. |
The point is that minions die *really* fast there. Using pets as fuel was the way to keep enough minions up to protect the other players. I fully expect that until this change is reversed, the MM in the team just got bumped out of the roster.
Quote:
| 4. Anet's stated repeatedly (and I have no reason to disbelieve) that the transversal trick isn't necessary to 100% the map. If there's an issue here, though, the fix is simply to add a bit mroe leeway to the Prophecies map to resolve it. |
Alicendre
/notsigned
It fixes a PvP issue (well of course it would be better to fix the Necro while not affecting other builds, but as long as we don't find a good way it's a fine nerf), and it makes PvErs think about a build. What's wrong in that?
It fixes a PvP issue (well of course it would be better to fix the Necro while not affecting other builds, but as long as we don't find a good way it's a fine nerf), and it makes PvErs think about a build. What's wrong in that?
Fates
Why did this thread, which is basically identical to the SR thread, get moved here from Riverside?
Oh, wait, one is being requested by pvp'ers and the other by pve'ers.
Sure glad no mods on Guru are biased.
Oh, wait, one is being requested by pvp'ers and the other by pve'ers.
Sure glad no mods on Guru are biased.
Elrien Silentfoot
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Originally Posted by Alicendre
/notsigned
It fixes a PvP issue (well of course it would be better to fix the Necro while not affecting other builds, but as long as we don't find a good way it's a fine nerf), and it makes PvErs think about a build. What's wrong in that? |
I haven't seen a single mention of a viable build that would be prevented by this fix in PvP.
Perhaps everyone here is forgetting that pet death outside HB/AB causes a skills blackout for at least 3 seconds. You can't expect to have 1 necro win the battle for you when all the other team-members are constantly being denied any ability to use their skills, especially when getting to those 3 seconds requires you to put 12 points in BM.
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Originally Posted by Fates Monk
Why did this thread, which is basically identical to the SR thread, get moved here from Riverside?
Oh, wait, one is being requested by pvp'ers and the other by pve'ers. Sure glad no mods on Guru are biased. |
Nuclfus
I can't say much for PvP given I only AB on occasion. But as for PvE farming, I think all this does is force more open-mindedness on the part of players. Love B/P? Fine, it'll still work but you'll just have to use the corpses you get wisely. If that doesn't work, try a different tactic. I've done ToPK with a balanced hero party (2 mes, 2 monk, 3 ele and 1 MM) and it's tons faster and more fun than your average B/P PUG.
As far as a rationale for game mechanics (disclaimer: this is just my theory, not Anet's official word): keep in mind having to res your pet is a joke compared to party members or enemy mobs (both of which still leave corpses). Skill names like Comfort Animal and Heal as One almost imply the pet isn't really dead as opposed to unconscious (i.e. not a corpse), and their cast times reflect that situation being easier to fix. On the other hand, skills like Resurrect and Restore Life definitely make it clear that your target is dead, and take longer to cast as if you're really in the process of bringing someone back to life. This also makes sense when considering that dead untamed animals never get up and walk around some more, so we can assume they're not just "unconscious" and their body is fair game for corpse exploit.
As far as a rationale for game mechanics (disclaimer: this is just my theory, not Anet's official word): keep in mind having to res your pet is a joke compared to party members or enemy mobs (both of which still leave corpses). Skill names like Comfort Animal and Heal as One almost imply the pet isn't really dead as opposed to unconscious (i.e. not a corpse), and their cast times reflect that situation being easier to fix. On the other hand, skills like Resurrect and Restore Life definitely make it clear that your target is dead, and take longer to cast as if you're really in the process of bringing someone back to life. This also makes sense when considering that dead untamed animals never get up and walk around some more, so we can assume they're not just "unconscious" and their body is fair game for corpse exploit.
aznhalf
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Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot
What issue does it fix?
I haven't seen a single mention of a viable build that would be prevented by this fix in PvP. |
Fates
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Originally Posted by Alicendre
/notsigned
It fixes a PvP issue (well of course it would be better to fix the Necro while not affecting other builds, but as long as we don't find a good way it's a fine nerf), and it makes PvErs think about a build. What's wrong in that? |
lyra_song
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nuclfus
As far as a rationale for game mechanics (disclaimer: this is just my theory, not Anet's official word): keep in mind having to res your pet is a joke compared to party members or enemy mobs (both of which still leave corpses). Skill names like Comfort Animal and Heal as One almost imply the pet isn't really dead as opposed to unconscious (i.e. not a corpse), and their cast times reflect that situation being easier to fix. On the other hand, skills like Resurrect and Restore Life definitely make it clear that your target is dead, and take longer to cast as if you're really in the process of bringing someone back to life. This also makes sense when considering that dead untamed animals never get up and walk around some more, so we can assume they're not just "unconscious" and their body is fair game for corpse exploit.
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However, pets are not party members, rather they are allies, so party res skills are not applicable them anyway. Under this theory, NPCs like Togo aren't really dead since we cannot res them anyway.
The names of the skills are irrelevant to the argument, but rather how they function. Resurrect and Comfort animal both return a character/npc back to action after they have lost all their health.
Saraphim
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nuclfus
As far as a rationale for game mechanics (disclaimer: this is just my theory, not Anet's official word): keep in mind having to res your pet is a joke compared to party members or enemy mobs (both of which still leave corpses). Skill names like Comfort Animal and Heal as One almost imply the pet isn't really dead as opposed to unconscious (i.e. not a corpse), and their cast times reflect that situation being easier to fix. On the other hand, skills like Resurrect and Restore Life definitely make it clear that your target is dead, and take longer to cast as if you're really in the process of bringing someone back to life. This also makes sense when considering that dead untamed animals never get up and walk around some more, so we can assume they're not just "unconscious" and their body is fair game for corpse exploit.
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Erm... as far as I know, health dropping to zero does not equal unconsious, unless you're counting the KD in Kilroy's punchout. The pet is most definitely dead... He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker! 'He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! 'He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! He is an EX PET !!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist it.
October Jade
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Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot
Well, nothing personal towards Chthon, but if this thread is going to be relegated to obscurity, I vote we return to hijacking the SR thread.
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DDL
Plus both [skill]Comfort Animal[/skill] and and [skill]Heal as One[/skill] specifically use the words 'dead' and 'resurrected'. 
Elrien Silentfoot
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Originally Posted by Nuclfus
I can't say much for PvP given I only AB on occasion. But as for PvE farming, I think all this does is force more open-mindedness on the part of players. Love B/P? Fine, it'll still work but you'll just have to use the corpses you get wisely. If that doesn't work, try a different tactic. I've done ToPK with a balanced hero party (2 mes, 2 monk, 3 ele and 1 MM) and it's tons faster and more fun than your average B/P PUG.
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It's good to know that there are other builds out there for tomb runs, but at the same time that's no justification to reduce the diversity.
Quote:
| As far as a rationale for game mechanics (disclaimer: this is just my theory, not Anet's official word): keep in mind having to res your pet is a joke compared to party members or enemy mobs (both of which still leave corpses). Skill names like Comfort Animal and Heal as One almost imply the pet isn't really dead as opposed to unconscious (i.e. not a corpse), and their cast times reflect that situation being easier to fix. On the other hand, skills like Resurrect and Restore Life definitely make it clear that your target is dead, and take longer to cast as if you're really in the process of bringing someone back to life. This also makes sense when considering that dead untamed animals never get up and walk around some more, so we can assume they're not just "unconscious" and their body is fair game for corpse exploit. |
Vinraith
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Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot
Ever done a B/P run as MM?
The point is that minions die *really* fast there. Using pets as fuel was the way to keep enough minions up to protect the other players. I fully expect that until this change is reversed, the MM in the team just got bumped out of the roster. |
Dark Paladin X
Chthon, I do agree that it makes no sense for having pet corpses not exploitable since they are fleshy creatures. And the rule of thumb is all fleshy creates leave exploitable corpses. But you might need to consider how rangers would use pets go suicide and use exploit skills like [skill]Consume Corpse[/skill] or [skill]Well of Profane[/skill].
Snow Bunny
/notsigned.
I played a B/P team today. They buffed barrage. o noes, no minion armies in 20 seconds, whatever will we do?
I played a B/P team today. They buffed barrage. o noes, no minion armies in 20 seconds, whatever will we do?
Elrien Silentfoot
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Originally Posted by Vinraith
We're talking about a change that, in PvE, affects one (already questionable, IMO) member of one team build in one area. Again, if the corpse supply is so low (or the minion attrition rate so high) that a pet corpse is necessary, something other than an MM would be a better choice.
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Leave out the MM and the barragers have to soak the damage, which doesn't really work well, which causes you to need a warr to tank, which means now you need a second monk. Don't forget that there's also enchant shatters around so bonding isn't going to work well either.
B/P is (was?) a reliable build for a good reason.
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Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X
Chthon, I do agree that it makes no sense for having pet corpses not exploitable since they are fleshy creatures. And the rule of thumb is all fleshy creates leave exploitable corpses. But you might need to consider how rangers would use pets go suicide and use exploit skills like [skill]Consume Corpse[/skill] or [skill]Well of Profane[/skill].
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A ranger cannot conveniently exploit the death of its own pet. At best, with BM 16 it has to wait 3 seconds before it could do that. No sane person would waste all those points simply to be able to gain a teleport and a heal/mana boost on the OFF CHANCE their pet dies. A ranger who does not put points into BM faces a 15 second blackout.
Again, who's going to live with a 15 second shut-down just to be able to use a corpse exploiting skill?
Other things to consider : You need to take 2 skills at least to have a pet and res it, which means any build trying to use this technique is already down to 6 skills. Expertise is WAY more effective. People tend to ignore pets in PvP (in my experience anyway) - usually its easier to kill the ranger instead of the pet, as the ranger will have 70 armour and the pet has 80.
The only thing this addresses is a necro using the pets of other rangers in the area, and if you really want to fix that (although imo it's not neccessary), then prevent SR from triggering on pet deaths.
Div
So basically what you're saying is that you're bad at the game and since you can't kill enemies fast enough, you need to exploit your own pets' corpses. O ok.
Elrien Silentfoot
Whatever delusions float your boat, mate.
lakatz
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Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot
Not with the B/P build. The MMs are simply the meatshields because there *are* no other tanks, and there's just 1 monk.
Leave out the MM and the barragers have to soak the damage, which doesn't really work well, which causes you to need a warr to tank, which means now you need a second monk. |
Div
Funny how hypocrites go into PvP threads saying PvPers should learn to adapt and bring "counters" or whatnot. And we get this. Maybe learn to adapt to the change and modify a 2 year old build that should've been modified anyways?
lyra_song
Just FYI, some of us who want it reverted back dont give a damn about B/P.
Elrien Silentfoot
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Originally Posted by lakatz
You don't use your pets as tanks?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
Funny how hypocrites go into PvP threads saying PvPers should learn to adapt and bring "counters" or whatnot. And we get this. Maybe learn to adapt to the change and modify a 2 year old build that should've been modified anyways?
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And it would be nice for PvPers to realise that PvE characters can change their skills, but not their equipment on the fly. Sure, your hardcore players can probably get a new set of 15k armour inside a week or whatever, but a casual player isn't going to be very happy to discover that he has to go looking for new gear because his old playstyle just got canned.
Now personally, I do both, so as far as I'm concerned you can take your PvP vs. PvE mentality and shove it.
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Just FYI, some of us who want it reverted back dont give a damn about B/P.
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HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
/notsigned.
I played a B/P team today. They buffed barrage. o noes, no minion armies in 20 seconds, whatever will we do? |
lakatz
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Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot
Of course. But the point is that having pets as tanks which die reasonably quickly puts a serious damper on your ability to barrage. Without the added MM shield, it's probably more viable to get a dedicated tank instead and leave the pet at home.
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To the point, I understand the PvPers' PoV. I understand Lyra's PoV. I don't understand your position that B/P buiilds need pet corpse exploitation. I don't believe it's vital to a B/P or B/P team build. And my ranger goes out B/P [edit] whenever possible.
Saraphim
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Originally Posted by lakatz
And my ranger goes out B/P (or Splinter B/P) whenever possible.
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Yes I heal my tiger, I'm weird like that.
Grammar
IMO, the fact that people are so upset over this chance proves that the change was needed.
People are talking about dropping pets all together in certain areas, just because they no longer leave corpses.
I mean, hold on a second here.....What's more important? The pets themselves or the corpses they leave behind when they die?
If the answer is the latter, then theres a problem here. That just smacks of exploit right there.
If people drop pets in certain areas because of this, then the change was justified, because that would prove that pets were being exploited for their corpses.
not signed.
EDIT: On a side note, I would definitely be in favor of eliminating or severely reducing the blackout period after your pet dies though.
People are talking about dropping pets all together in certain areas, just because they no longer leave corpses.
I mean, hold on a second here.....What's more important? The pets themselves or the corpses they leave behind when they die?
If the answer is the latter, then theres a problem here. That just smacks of exploit right there.
If people drop pets in certain areas because of this, then the change was justified, because that would prove that pets were being exploited for their corpses.
not signed.
EDIT: On a side note, I would definitely be in favor of eliminating or severely reducing the blackout period after your pet dies though.
lakatz
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Originally Posted by Saraphim
Is Splinter B/P that viable? I found that using SW meant I had to take points out of Beastmastery and left me unable to heal my tiger properly..
Yes I heal my tiger, I'm weird like that. |
Alka
It's still nice to play a game that's internally consistent. I've stopped playing other games when rules were added arbitrarily that broke the concept of cause and effect.
/signed
pet dont have usable corpse is so just idiotic to game idea /rules
that that anet skill ballancer make me sick, he just dont know to do his job which he is payed for
for 2 years of play its just most idiotic nerf i ever saw,
i dont do mm bp team more than 1x in 3 monts so it dont affect me but,some basic game rules are broken by this
/signed
pet dont have usable corpse is so just idiotic to game idea /rules
that that anet skill ballancer make me sick, he just dont know to do his job which he is payed for
for 2 years of play its just most idiotic nerf i ever saw,
i dont do mm bp team more than 1x in 3 monts so it dont affect me but,some basic game rules are broken by this