Hi. Read Me. This is (still) the best Ele Nuker Build.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
3. @ Ensign, which PvE-only skills are you using?
Typically I run with Dual Norn shouts ("You Move Like a Dwarf!" and "Finish Him!") and "There's Nothing to Fear!". If I'm in a group with other players, I'll drop TNTF, and occasionally YMLAD, for Great Dwarf Weapon, Technobabble, or an Ebon Battle Standard. I've run Pain Inverter and Light of Deldrimor before as well, though neither of those are on par with the other choices.
Winterclaw
Hmm, I thought Pain Inverter was supposedly a good skill to have, particularly vs double damage bosses.
blue.rellik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Hmm, I thought Pain Inverter was supposedly a good skill to have, particularly vs double damage bosses.
It's best against ele and dervish bosses, maybe the occasional barrage ranger or Siege Devourer boss but really that's it. There aren't many other bosses that have powerful aoe skills dangerous enough to warrant bringing it nor are you going to meet them often enough for Pain Inverter to be a 'must-bring' skill
xDusT II
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Hmm, I thought Pain Inverter was supposedly a good skill to have, particularly vs double damage bosses.
Most HM Bosses will output more pain than pain inverter will send back if you specifically allow them to do damage, which tends to sour the deal with Pain Inverter. Generally, shutdown options are safer and more reliable, Dazed and KD's being the best two methods.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Hmm, I thought Pain Inverter was supposedly a good skill to have, particularly vs double damage bosses.
It only does anything if you let the boss do that damage, and that tends to get ugly. If you're shutting down that boss, via knockdowns, daze, blind, block, weakness, and the like, then Pain Inverter is not going to be sending back all that much damage. It's great against bosses that you can't shut down, such as the Great Destroyer, or some of the EotN dungeon bosses that are immune to blind and daze. But generally it's a wasted slot, only good against those bosses and nothing else. I certainly wouldn't slot it very often when those other skills I mentioned are available for usage.
Dr Strangelove
Pain inverter is unbelievable if you're running a cloud of minions, which I tend to do with my necros anyway. It gives you the ability to instantly kill the most dangerous mob at little to no danger to yourself. Why bother with shutdown when you can kill something?
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
1. WTH happened to my last post? Far too lazy to retype the whole thing, so...
2. Where is this 5 or 6 DPS less than SF figure coming from? I see some thing more like this:
Assume no faster cast/recharge, 16 Fire Magic (if anyone starts another sup vs minor debate here I will kick them in the crotch...), and combustable AL 60 foes, then...
...RI is going to do 127 + 42 from burning and cycle in 7 sec, for ~24.1 nearby-AoE DPS.
...SF is going to do 98 from burning on the first cycle and 106 for each of the next two cycles, and cycle in 3 sec, for ~34.4 nearby-AoE DPS. (And it goes up a little if you include MoR or have multiple SFers.)
To me, that looks more like a difference of 10 than 5 or 6, or a loss of some 30% of your AoE DPS going from SF to RI. Surely MB can probably fund another big AoE spell to fill the gap, but that's going to cut into those free skillslots that are supposed to make MB so good...
3. @ Ensign, which PvE-only skills are you using? Mind Blast deals damage. It may not be AoE, but it's to a primary target. And mobs drop quickly when a key member - or even just any member - dies.
2. Where is this 5 or 6 DPS less than SF figure coming from? I see some thing more like this:
Assume no faster cast/recharge, 16 Fire Magic (if anyone starts another sup vs minor debate here I will kick them in the crotch...), and combustable AL 60 foes, then...
...RI is going to do 127 + 42 from burning and cycle in 7 sec, for ~24.1 nearby-AoE DPS.
...SF is going to do 98 from burning on the first cycle and 106 for each of the next two cycles, and cycle in 3 sec, for ~34.4 nearby-AoE DPS. (And it goes up a little if you include MoR or have multiple SFers.)
To me, that looks more like a difference of 10 than 5 or 6, or a loss of some 30% of your AoE DPS going from SF to RI. Surely MB can probably fund another big AoE spell to fill the gap, but that's going to cut into those free skillslots that are supposed to make MB so good...
3. @ Ensign, which PvE-only skills are you using? Mind Blast deals damage. It may not be AoE, but it's to a primary target. And mobs drop quickly when a key member - or even just any member - dies.
Sir Pandra Pierva
MB>all other fire elites
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Mind Blast deals damage. It may not be AoE, but it's to a primary target. And mobs drop quickly when a key member - or even just any member - dies.
Despite its fast cycle time, mind blast is going to get slowed down by having to fit between the 2 sec cast (plus the aftercast) on RI. It looks like 1 RI and 2 MB per 7.5 sec is the best casting manageable, which is ~39.3 DPS to your primary target.
GG fits much more smoothly in between SFs, since you can manage 3 SF and 1 GG in 9.5 sec for ~38.2 DPS to your primary target.
I don't really see that as a big difference. To really be effective at killing the primary target faster than the SF the MB is going to need another big DD (which would be DD eating into your utility space again) or do something to deal with that cast time on RI. Dual 20/20 items are going to help a little, but not fix the problem. I wonder how much better it would run with mindbender?...
GG fits much more smoothly in between SFs, since you can manage 3 SF and 1 GG in 9.5 sec for ~38.2 DPS to your primary target.
I don't really see that as a big difference. To really be effective at killing the primary target faster than the SF the MB is going to need another big DD (which would be DD eating into your utility space again) or do something to deal with that cast time on RI. Dual 20/20 items are going to help a little, but not fix the problem. I wonder how much better it would run with mindbender?...
Dr Strangelove
I almost always have another DD on my bar, usually immolate or fireball. My AB bar posted on page 4 or so of this thread did 6 less DPS than a SF guy.
However, I generally don't rely on my casters to kill everything. Casters for me are there to provide support, with damage as a neat trick on the side. I almost always have 4-5 physicals to actually score the kills anyway. If you're really relying on casters to score most of your kills, a pack of SF eles is probably the best way to go, albeit fragile and crappy against armor.
However, I generally don't rely on my casters to kill everything. Casters for me are there to provide support, with damage as a neat trick on the side. I almost always have 4-5 physicals to actually score the kills anyway. If you're really relying on casters to score most of your kills, a pack of SF eles is probably the best way to go, albeit fragile and crappy against armor.
Sir Pandra Pierva
while SF hits more dps
MB hits slightly less dps with 2 skills
so umm ya
MB>SF
with those 6 other skill slots you can run what you want.
MB hits slightly less dps with 2 skills
so umm ya
MB>SF
with those 6 other skill slots you can run what you want.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
GG fits much more smoothly in between SFs, since you can manage 3 SF and 1 GG in 9.5 sec for ~38.2 DPS to your primary target.
I don't really see that as a big difference. To really be effective at killing the primary target faster than the SF the MB is going to need another big DD (which would be DD eating into your utility space again) or do something to deal with that cast time on RI. Dual 20/20 items are going to help a little, but not fix the problem. I wonder how much better it would run with mindbender?...
Chances are that the MB will for a while cast only one MB between Rodgort's, sometimes he'll stop casting RI altogether to cast utility, etc. DPS numbers are generally not very accurate when you have a character that's made to do several things - it's going to be lower than the optimum, if you're playing the character anywhere like how it's supposed to be played.
Quote:
The SF ele(s) takes down a target at about the same time, give or take a cast or two, as the targets around it. So no, if it hits a sizeable amount of creeps, it's already AoE - after all, such is the definition in Guild Wars. Usually you'd be pretty good to get 3 creeps consistently in your RIs.|
However, I generally don't rely on my casters to kill everything. Casters for me are there to provide support, with damage as a neat trick on the side. I almost always have 4-5 physicals to actually score the kills anyway. If you're really relying on casters to score most of your kills, a pack of SF eles is probably the best way to go, albeit fragile and crappy against armor.
qft.
Div
I don't understand Chthon's argument. The point of the mind blast ele is to be almost as effective as SF ele in terms of damage but provide twice as many slots for utility and support. No one's trying to argue that it does more damage. No one cares that it does slightly less damage. You argue from the novice's standpoint where big numbers mean everything, which is the same philosophy that argues for dual superior runes on healing prayers/divine favor to see a huge heal every cast.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
I don't understand Chthon's argument.
That's because I have no argument to make here.
I am merely questioning the notion that MB really sports "almost as much damage as SF with a lot more utility," particularly the "almost as much damage" part. I'm seeing some 30% less AoE DPS and a dead heat for single-target DPS. And that leaves me wondering if we're really getting enough utility to offset that sort of damage loss (are dual norn shouts really that great?) especially if we have to give back some of the slots we gain by switching to MB for mindbender and/or DD to shore up the damage gap a bit. I don't know the answer to that question. But it does not look to me like the answer is as cut and dry as folks in this thread seem to think.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
That's because I have no argument to make here.
I am merely questioning the notion that MB really sports "almost as much damage as SF with a lot more utility," particularly the "almost as much damage" part. I'm seeing some 30% less AoE DPS and a dead heat for single-target DPS. And that leaves me wondering if we're really getting enough utility to offset that sort of damage loss (are dual norn shouts really that great?) especially if we have to give back some of the slots we gain by switching to MB for mindbender and/or DD to shore up the damage gap a bit. I don't know the answer to that question. But it does not look to me like the answer is as cut and dry as folks in this thread seem to think. That's because it's not really something that numbers can solve. However, as I said before, killing off one creep from a mob goes a long way to killing that mob outright; generally you'd want one target to die, and the rest follows pretty easily.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
I'm seeing some 30% less AoE DPS and a dead heat for single-target DPS. And that leaves me wondering if we're really getting enough utility to offset that sort of damage loss (are dual norn shouts really that great?)
'Meh', basically - it's not all that much of an issue.
The damage loss isn't all too substantial overall, especially if - like me - you're not really using your eles to kill things anyway. The actual AoE damage isn't too impressive, especially in later PvE/HM; essentially a Mind Blaster offers plenty of support options whilst contributing fair AoE damage; whilst the physicals and Curse necro do all the real damage. However, if for some bizarre reason, you wanted to kill things with Eles, by all means run SF - it honestly is much better than MB at straight big-damage numbers, and gets even better because if you're killing with eles, you'll have a pack of them killing things, and we all know SF shines in packs.
Seven Flames
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Mind Blast deals damage. It may not be AoE, but it's to a primary target. And mobs drop quickly when a key member - or even just any member - dies.
if you wanna say that, then SF on that "key target" with multiple SF Eles makes that all the better
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Flames
if you wanna say that, then SF on that "key target" with multiple SF Eles makes that all the better
Searing Flames is used because it's a reliable way to cause damage and not much else. If you're going to use SF to kill a single target, you're doing something wrong.
Besides, if you really want to take down a target, DSlash is win. MB is good because apart from outputting reasonable pressure, it provides utility.
Seven Flames
what do you mean it's a reliable way to cause damage and "not much else"?
as well as the killing a single target part
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Flames
what do you mean it's a reliable way to cause damage and "not much else"?
All you can really do with a SF bar is blow things up, given the extensive support needed to spam SF.
If you're feeling adventurous, you might just be able to squueze Aegis or a Ward on there.
Seven Flames
Mb is great if you don't have any other nuker/friends to help, because it's usage can allow you to spam some skills if you have a high enough energy pool.
but with multiple eles running SF fire builds, a single target will go down quickly and as well that helps your energy upkeep, ie. low energy - GG burning target, or vice versa for a friend. can take down a "single target" in no time as well as damaging nearby enemies
Randvek
Woohoo, Mind Blast. Flare + energy management!
LightningHell
The whole point of using an SF elementalist instead of, say, a Water shatterstone one, is because it's reliable AoE damage. If you're using it to kill a single target, you're being horribly inefficient.
Seven Flames
i get what you're trying to say, but the AoE of SF still works in that same sense even if used on a singular target. it may be an AoE spell, and using it in the middle of a mob is the ideal use for it, but it works just as well with scattered enemies because the simple fact that the damage is high enough
blue.rellik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Flames
Mb is great if you don't have any other nuker/friends to help, because it's usage can allow you to spam some skills if you have a high enough energy pool.
but with multiple eles running SF fire builds, a single target will go down quickly and as well that helps your energy upkeep, ie. low energy - GG burning target, or vice versa for a friend. can take down a "single target" in no time as well as damaging nearby enemies The problem with SF is what happens when you fight something with more than a loincloth for armour (aka a bunch of dervishs and warrior mobs running towards you with some rangers in the back pounding you) or pretty much most HM areas (Destroyers lol)
LightningHell
Very weird. My post got 'posted' quite a bit of time later I pressed submit...
but with multiple eles running SF fire builds, a single target will go down quickly and as well that helps your energy upkeep, ie. low energy - GG burning target, or vice versa for a friend. In any case, I'd say yes, you are correct if you want to bring a ton of caster damage dealers. In my opinion, that is not optimal, and bringing melee to deal most of the damage would be more wise. Quote: can take down a "single target" in no time as well as damaging nearby enemies |
(My actual point is that an SF takes down groups, not individuals, specificially. Doing otherwise is just dumb. Of course it 'takes out a single target'; taking out a mob is taking out a few of these single targets.)
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i get what you're trying to say, but the AoE of SF still works in that same sense even if used on a singular target. it may be an AoE spell, and using it in the middle of a mob is the ideal use for it, but it works just as well with scattered enemies because the simple fact that the damage is high enough
Okay, so you're actually saying that SF is good even when you're only hitting one foe? I'd have to beg to differ, and I believe I can find plenty of ground for that.
Mouse at Large
Not long finished vanquishing all areas (absolutely no Ursan used
 ), and my observation would be that my preferred MB + MoR worked well. I would agree that if you could guarantee that you could hit 3 or 4 enemies every time, Sf might be preferable, however, no matter how crappy/good the scatter part of the AI is, there will be numerous occasions where you will be hitting a single target, be it a monk standing back or something that's broken through the frontline.To be able to keep up constant burning, regain energy and fire off utility/AoE or whatever is appropriate worked fine for me 
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Flames
i get what you're trying to say, but the AoE of SF still works in that same sense even if used on a singular target. it may be an AoE spell, and using it in the middle of a mob is the ideal use for it, but it works just as well with scattered enemies because the simple fact that the damage is high enough
If you want single target damage, roll a physical class, an elementalist can't even hope to keep up there. Your only advantage is for AoE, and given stuff like splinter weapon, scythe AoE, and death blossom, it's a tenuous advantage at best.
However, physical classes can't support the amount of utility that an elementalist can. Maybe, just maybe, it's a good idea to play to your strengths?
Sir Pandra Pierva
my problem with sf its way too fragile
you lose Glowing gaze your done you lose SF your done you lose fire attune your done MB on the other hand lose mb your hurt and energy party is over lose rodgorts oh well you just dont nuke instead go full support lose fire attune- woopie you dont really need it
Seven Flames
a Lot of good points, but i think in general ya'll are underestimating eles.
i don't know a ton about many of the other professions, but i've played them, and i started with an ele. and i Have to say, eles and their possible uses are Extremely underestimated. they have the potential for a Lot of things, it's just no one thinks creatively enough. but anyway, about the SF v MB thing, i guess i'm just sticking up for a great skill that i've used often and it hasn't really failed me yet. Tyla
Eles are underestimated? :s
Can you explain a little clearer or are you talking about their support skills being underestimated? :/
angmar_nite
I think he means fire being used offensively is underestimated. Which is grossly untrue. They do DPS to large mobs, but DPS verse single targets is poor, short of a well snared echoed Savannah heat.
Seven Flames
the whole.. underestimated thing, i was pretty much talking about eles in general. but as far as fire goes, well i'm not that great with words so i don't think i'll be able to put up much of an argument on that, unfortunately.
i guess i just resent someone saying like.. "This sucks blah, that sucks..etc." Tyla
Well, SF doesn't suck, but it lacks certain qualities that MB has which can be converted into a balanced build.
Plus it takes alot of energy to pull off. Ele's are not, under any circumstances underestimated apart from using something but SF in PuG's. At least, this is my opinion...
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Flames
the whole.. underestimated thing, i was pretty much talking about eles in general. but as far as fire goes, well i'm not that great with words so i don't think i'll be able to put up much of an argument on that, unfortunately.
i guess i just resent someone saying like.. "This sucks blah, that sucks..etc." I wouldn't say eles are at all underestimated - indeed, most PuGs holler for Fire nukers to blow stuff up. It's just that some of the (more experienced) people here also see the limitations of eles as main damage dealers, especially in higher-end PvE where armour-respective ele spells get reduced to pitiful amounts - a 30 damage SF isn't just funny, but a reality. As such, they gravitate towards using physicals to kill stuff - +dmg from attacks ignores armour, and they're more flexible, more disruptive, hardier, and their damage can be buffed out of the wazzoo by weapon spells, Orders, Curses and Smites (a luxury spellcaster damage dealers lose, save a very small number of skills) - so they kill stuff faster overall. For these kinds of parties, a Mind Blaster is a strong choice because you're not losing all too much already-'meh' damage in return for a lot of support options, to make the team stronger overall.
Seven Flames
i understand that, but i would think balancing out the damage and support possibilities would make an even better team rather than almost utterly sacrificing one for the other...
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Flames
i understand that, but i would think balancing out the damage and support possibilities would make an even better team rather than almost utterly sacrificing one for the other...
Which is the point of Mind Blast. Powering out Rodgort's (and maybe Fireball) - essentially the best individual nukes in the game - is plenty of damage. Mind Blast is the ultimate balanced Ele.
Seven Flames
plenty of damage? if you say so, maybe over Time, but in the short run.. that's hardly a scratch really.. i don't think an enemy is gonna simply sit there wait for you to spam 2 spells over and over to kill it before retaliating
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Flames
plenty of damage? if you say so, maybe over Time, but in the short run.. that's hardly a scratch really.. i don't think an enemy is gonna simply sit there wait for you to spam 2 spells over and over to kill it before retaliating
My warriors and dervs have already killed them, and the paragon neutered their 'retaliation'. The ele provides support damage as well as support defenses for anything that leaks through.
Seven Flames
support?!? lol, i'll admit though, it Is hard to argue about this.. kinda keep forgetting my point
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