[Dev Update] Exploits and Bans – 10 January 2008

I relation to my post, it'd be:
0-4: unpunished (ANet's deal)
5- ~20: Tempban + Account sweep (lose everything but your chars)
20+: Permaban

i was saying that when i got dragged into mallyx from the bugged area i was already ready to face mallyx as i finished all areas prior, i had done all the pre-quests. but regardless, i left mid battle without picking up a single drop. when i said i farm the areas i meant i do city veil gloom and foundry within 1h30m

see here:http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...9&d=1199582095

You're unwillingness to concede that you exploited the game knowingly does not mean that ANet will concede to your support tickets.

Quite the opposite actually, you're only digging yourself in deeper. You've given yourself motive and knowledge that what you were doing was wrong.

By the way, it's "didn't exploit anything" - double negatives are a no no

Just to remove some "conspiracy theory" material from this thread (and may be, one can only hope, from everyone's brain), yes, people do "scan" the client files to know what's inside. That's how they discovered month ago that the Mini Polar Bear existed (see here) and this may be how they discovered an "Ebony Citadel of Mallyx" outpost, which may have led to hackers attempting to get to it by packet modification.

Though I've already heard of stories of MMO company employees leaking information to be exploited (the famous truth about GW, which looks more like BS about GW), I highly doubt that Anet didn't make clear to all their employees of the "death penalty" that would ensue such a behaviour. Gaile mentions exactly this on one of her post (but I couldn't find it again, let me know if you want it).

On a different matter, I also read on another GW forum that Anet weren't warned of the exploit months ago:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...35#post5243135

So much for creating content for conspiracy theories to float around...

I think it is safe to say that any of the 117 posting here are sorry.

Sorry for being banned? Of course .. who wouldn't be. Many are sorry for having been an issue to begin with. I am sorry that I put my nephew in this situation. That is where my sorrow lies .. not with the death of my account. If any of you would knowingly drag a child down with you for personal gain that is sick. I would not. I would never have knowningly risked that childs account given the past precedent it was reasonable to assume that I was not. If you cannot understand that not all of us viewed this as a ban offense it is you that I pity. No, I won't be firing up an alt account loaded with loot. Spent 9000 + hours on the one banned .. not starting over.

I understand you people trying to say that we will say anything to get our account back. I will not. I am here because I feel the permaban was wrong given past precedent. As I have said in support tickets .. leave me banned but unban my nephew he had no reason to think a father figure would get him in trouble. This is not a sick twist for personal gain but an adult trying to rectify a misjustice on a child.

I made a step by step how to that showed it was not a hack. Same step by step was sent to Gaile at her request. Anya, if you have personal ACCURATE information showing this was a hack I would LOVE to see this. If not, you are clouding the issue for all involved and I ask politely that you give it a rest.

The step by step showed that it was a generic ferry. Only in hindsight would people be second guessing where it took you. This is why the Duncan ferry keeps returning in our posts.

Modifying a client would involve modifying CRC, knowledge of which part of the code contains that order, which in that case would Imply reading the entire code, and then again , that would come as weird cause your client might crash if you don't know how to do it.

The point here is that if your client was hacked, that means that on every update you'd have to do that same hack over and over again...

And, I'm not going towards who hacked who didn't, who did what, I'm in favor of the right thing to do, and ban some, for the supposed "personal gain" it would mean Ban all those who in the history of this game have done something towards "personal gain"...

Open up your mind, and you might even understand what the banned guys are wanting...

To those interested in the technical side:

Ive done a little research into this packet hacking and found a real program they hack WoW with which could be used in GW, im not going to name it or download it, but did read an online tutorial explaining how to hack WoW with it, lol.

This is whats happening:

Client connects to to the server and sends commands(packets).
Client---->-------->--------------->Server
|
Hacking program - Attaches itself to the client and allows hacker to apply a filter modifying legitimate commands into commands of the hackers choice. The server thinks its recieving legitimate commands from the client.

As you can see if they used this same program the client has been modified.

for one they have the means to see that that days in question they will find me picking up and dropping items within the areas i have stated, they can follow drops and pick up rates... my account has a massive amount of gems and gold etc which would easily put me down for a mallyx farmer.. if you look at my appeal to anet you will see that i have asked them to check these areas as they will prove my innocence. i dont need to be judged nor questioned by any of you and those who try to do it i have little respect for. anet will be my judge and when they give me my account back i will post the next record time for DOA in the apropriate thread
kthxbai

I can see your remorse is geniune for your nephew leprekan.
We can all only recommed that you word your support ticket with all sincerity to the support team..and I for one will be rooting for your nephew's account back.

I think everyone here understands what the banned want. we just don't think a-net should give it to them.

I am so sick of this "he did this so I can do that" argument! No, you can't. A-net has spoken. It doesn't matter what you think is fair, it doesn't matter what i think is fair. All that matters is that they broke the eula, and a-net chose to punish.

Yes, it should have clicked. I have nothing against you personally, I don't know you. This whole thing is terribly sad. I am speechless right now that no bells went off for you. I don't think for one second that you went in there to cheat 100% aware that it was a forbidden area, but gezz.... I don't know what to say. It seems to me whoever invited you there KNEW it was on off-limits place and they dragged you down. There are a few of you here I feel bad for. I don't condone the cheating, BUT if you are telling the truth and only ran Mallyx that ONE day for those 7 times... then I wish you good luck.

As for leprekan's nephew.... same deal. It's sad. I personally don't condone showing a kid how to cut corners, but I completely believe he thought it was legit in order for him to invite this kid.

<--Stunned.
Do you realize you are digging yourself deeper and deeper? and maybe you are going to drag other's deeper and deeper?? You are coming up with a LIST OF EXCUSES!!!! Please, catch your breath and stop to think. The more you type, the less credible you are.

Don't encourage players to go through your list and pick what applies. Encourage them to be honest and humble, a good attitude will go a long way. Each one of you has a different story. Stick to your own and stop coming up with excuses as to why other people not involved in this fiasco should be banned as well, or what they should say to maybe get them off the hook.

actually, just BEING in the outpost is a breach. You suggest people to go back and read the thread... I am one of those, and again... read what Gaile said...
just BEING there was a breach. This is why some people that claim only fought Mallyx X number of times show as being there X+ (a whole bunch more).


Well, you can thank your friend for helping put you where you now stand. Did it ever occur to you that the place looked fishy? Whatever secret areas are out there are not meant for us to be in. Any other NEW area is quickly shared with the community. People find new weapons, new bosses, maybe new outposts... and they quickly land here in these forums, or in wiki. This area was kept utter secret.... why?? Your friend and maybe lack of good judgment on your part, landed you where you stand.

I mentioned earlier that this thread should be collected as a book, a testimony of how epic the situation and the thread is. There should be chapter about "The stories people used to explain their ideas" . I think it's both the illustration of creativity and the fact that we're going in spiral (for not saying "circles").

I won't talk about the petition, to try not to put this thread deeper into its own conundrum. I guess that Anet is keeping away from this thread because it's totally counter-productive.

I think you're being genuine that you feel bad about dragging your nephew into this. If everything you've said about his situation was true then he shouldnt be banned.

BUT I have to point out that just because you took your nephew into this and never wanted to get him into trouble doesnt mean that you never saw this as an exploit or a bannable offense. People commit crimes because they think they'll never get caught. So just because you risked your own account and your nephew's account doesnt automatically mean that you didnt view this as breaking the rules.

im not here to credit my story or even make it public...i used mine as an example to others. i have total faith that anet will sort this out as they have been cooperating with me in a more than apropriate manner.
im here to help others and stop all the flaming and clouded comments.
like "being there is exploiting" for example...
so far anet have banned on visits to this area..even thou it isnt exploiting and also i think that everytime you enter mallyx legitimately it goes on that counter also. i went to the bugged area 3-4 times and was accused of 18 lol.
i told this to plaync and told them to look at other issues which will prove guilt or innocence.like i said...im not worried about my issue im here for the others...and all the friends i lost. being their spokesmen because they get rage flamed whenever they try to defend themselves..

So it seems that a very small number of people -- possibly just one -- hacked the client to take a character to the outpost. Once a character was parked there, the hack was no longer needed to get back. The hacker(s) ferried other people in, who in turn ferried more people in, who in turn... Resulting in 117+ people using the outpost, many of whom didn't know who the original hacker(s) was(/were), or that there was a hack involved.

This theory seems plausible enough. And it accounts for all of the observations posted so far. So, for now, I'll accept it.

In that case, I'm afraid I have to admit there's some merit to the comparison to Duncan. From the point of view of the person getting ferried in ignorant of the original hack, they were merely exploiting a game flaw that let them into an area without meeting the pre-reqs -- pretty much like Duncan. So far as they knew, they weren't doing anything worse than the people who snuck into the last part of Slaver's via a ferry. Of course, what they thought they knew turned out to be wrong (there was a hack at the root of it all), but, if we're looking to punish guilty mental states, not just malum prohibitum acts, as Gaile and the EULA claim we are, and if we accpet the premise that a-net should be consistent and even-handed in its treatment of those who use exploits, then an honest belief that this was just a get-to-a-place-without-the-prereqs exploit, instead of a hack, should make all the difference in the world.

Now, one might say that there were signs that should have tipped the 117 off that they were in a more-off-limits area than sneaking in to Duncan. The place isn't on the map, and. as I understand it, there were no people there, and no storage. However, I don't see how these signs would help anyone without thorough knowledge of the game client make the connection that this was a hack and not a mere exploit. Moreover, I don't see how going through an off-the-map town to get to an otherwise inaccessible place would be an inherently worse exploit than just going there directly.

So, it seems to me that the proper course of investigation would be to look into the chat logs to see who knew that that they were benefiting from a hack and who didn't, then ban the former and forgive the latter.

You either believe that a-net is lying when they say they've only banned the worst of the exploiters and have the logs to prove it (a-net's gain being the ability to hand pick 117 innocent people to persecute and yet seem within their rights to do so), or that the 117 is lying when they say they only did it x times and didn't know it was an exploit(117's gain being sympathy for their plight resulting in higher sigs on their petition hoping that might sway a-net and get their accounts back, because they know that the evidence DOES exist).

Hey poster, no it's not random deleting. I'm following the guidelines that were set by Inde in this quoted post. I'd advise you to read it.

This will be closed if you can't abide by these guidelines.

"An exploit is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that take advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerized)."


People got to outpost by exploiting the GW software. There can be absolutely NO doubt about this. Just by being in the outpost you exploited the game.

Then close the thread already. I feel I've made intelligent arguments, but because they were made using analogies, they were deleted. Oh wait, only some were?

Go back, most used analogies. Delete 'em all. I'm done.

Well, if everyone else feels that way and you've all said what you have to say, then I'll close it. But, if I do and any new threads pop up on the subject, they will be closed.

Inde has gone to great lengths to do the right thing in letting those banned have another medium to try to reach Anet. I for one greatly appreciate that fact. I and I am sure ALL that were banned really view this forum as one of our VERY limited means of contact with Anet. Please do not go out of your way to have that stripped from us.

Calling for a thread to be closed because your rant was deleted .. shows that the count was more important than the message. Do what rational people do when they get frustrated. Walk away for abit.

From what I have read it seems to me that many of those who did use the exploit did so out of sheer curiosity, because ‘it seemed like a good idea at the time’ (but now regret it), or by getting involved through friends - but certainly not with the intention of making a huge amount of money (though I’m sure there are those who did that as well).

I have some sympathy for the former (insofar as they didn’t know the exploit originated from a ‘hack’, if this is indeed the case), and none whatsoever for the latter.

At best, some of them have been a bit naïve (hey, even the most experienced players are allowed to be naïve once in a while!) or ignorant. At worst, downright greedy.

The difficulty, of course, is where do you draw the line? As many people have already indicated, the bar has been set quite high. To me, a permanent ban just for visiting the hidden outpost, or even farming Mallyx a few times seems a bit harsh, even for those who maybe realised that they shouldn’t be there. But then again, I’m not privy to all the facts.

If i remember correctly, you were ferried to that outpost with your first character and your step by step guide was done with a second character on the same account. Unfortunately this might be no proof of simple ferry'ing to Anet, since you've recreated the steps on the same account and you getting ferried there on your first char might have tipped over an account wide isAllowedToThatOutpost-bit.
Of course, if you've done it on an account untainted by any previous ferry'ing, then it should be considered as proof.
Unfortunately Anet wasn't able to reproduce getting there by either your guide or pablo24's idea (which involves a weird(!) glitch). Getting there for the very first time by hacking the zoneId sent by the client can be reproduced.

Ignorance of the consequences of your actions or ignorance of the law rarely gets you out of trouble when you break the law.

"I didn't know she was not 18" or "I didn't know they were not 21" will still get you tossed in jail for statutory rape or serving alcohol to minors, no matter how nice of a person you are or how genuine you are in your ignorance.

"I didn't know speeding in a construction zone was doubled fines" is still going to yield you a double fine, even though you were unaware of the severity of the punishment as you broke the law.

Do you get warnings that the police are going to check your speed with radar? Sometimes, sometimes not. If you break a law, even if you are not aware of the law, gets you in trouble. Often times this can be very severe, especially in other countries and cultures.

As I mentioned before, 117 people being banned is nothing compared to the overall population of GW, and I am sure they could have banned even more. In fact, they might even being monitoring some folks who might have been banned but were not, just to see who else they interact with and who they give some of their loot to. So when you say so and so was not banned but should have been, there might be very good reasons for that. With how long this has been supposedly going on, I would not be surprised if it ended up being a couple thousand people being banned, as they track down alts and mules and such.

I agree that, although ignorance may be a reason, it is not an excuse. However, as you are well aware, there are varying degrees of punishment. In my opinion, a visit to the hidden outpost or even farming Mallyx a couple of times does not warrant a permanent ban (given what I have stated previously). I'm sure that others feel that a permanent ban is justified based on the severity of the purported hack. As I said, I don't have all the facts.

The reason I raise the point of ignorance is that there seems to be a slight discrepancy between "the bar was set higher than a one-time or even few-time occurrence, as the Dev Update states, to avoid banning someone who was pulled there inadvertently" and what some forum members are saying they were banned for. Although we don't always give credit to ArenaNet when it's due (and yes, they do make mistakes from time to time), I do think they care about their player base, both those GW players who want to see justice served and those who are pleading innocence. It's a difficult balance to strike.

(Also, I think its worthwhile keeping this particular 'crime' in context. Although I appreciate the point you are making, statutory rape or serving alcohol to minors, I think you would agree, fall within a slightly different category!)

leprekan has made some good points and i suppourt him cos i was one of the 117 banned well it should be 116 cos 2 accounts were mine. What i dont understand is that Anet have known about this exploit for 6 months now. So from wat i can see is they waited for more to find it then banned them also saying a hack was used it total crap you could get there by using the guide that leprekan showed i went in my accedient and i tested it out 2 times to see what is was and that is it.

I think any more discussion of this is almost totally pointless.
We aren't going to get our accounts back no matter what we do.

Incorrect assumptions have been made by the "powers that be" and by the posters here as to the nature of all this, and the people involved : i.e we're all terrible people who go around hacking, commiting a vast array of crimes varying from shoplifting, stealing cars, driving said cars too fast and then blaming it all on the next person. Believe what you will.

All we can do is give our side of the story, which some people (the important ones that might be in a position to actually do something to help) are never going to believe.

The hammer is down. The black cap is on. Accounts are gone.

It seems that most people believe this is a drop in the ocean, 117 people really aren't that many. Good riddance etc etc. I remind you that a community is made up of individuals, some are more prominent and active than others. The type of person who got dragged into this (I really do think that is the correct verb to use, as the nature of the exploit meant it was passed from person to person and didn't involve having to have a hacker in the party) were the type of people who had pretty much seen every last corner of the game from start to finish, the type of people who actively contributed a great deal to the virtual communities with which they were associated with. The knock-on effect to the community at large, the guild wars economy and the enjoyment of many player's game time are going to be far-reaching and will echo on.

On a personal level, I thank the game designers for making such a great product. It kept us hooked for so long and would have probably kept on giving us a great deal of entertainment. £100 or so really isn't much to pay for so many hours of entertainment. Although a great leap up from the MUD's of old, MMO's are still in their infancy. Guildwars is most definately a front runner in many aspects.. lacking in others ofc - but that is to be expected.
Nothing this new is ever perfect. The one thing I think they have got right is the ability to draw people in, encouraging players to play more and achieve more, in their virtual world. In retrospect I see that these achievements are quite meaningless. That they are merely badges people wear to mark them as addicts, that one guy has more time to waste than another. I do hope some day that it will be easier to balance real life with games, I know that a good number of people can 't seem to be able to (me included) and when the world is too much to cope with they run towards their well controlled fantasy world where almost everything you do is rewarded somehow.

Looking after the player's state of mind and discouraging them from total immersion in a virtual world, is the responsibility of the player. I do feel however, that game designers could do more to help. I do not have the exact figures but, I believe 50% of mmo players, when asked, said that they were addicted to their game.

Guildwars, for many, is an obsession, an addiction. Losing a guildwars account that has been tended to for a very long period of time feels like going cold-turkey. I think this goes some way to explain why some people feel so vehemently that they were wronged and are willing to go to great lengths to try to reverse the situation, even talking about actual litigation or thinking of ways to exact revenge on the world which has spurned them. The observer may feel that they are going way too far and feel little empathy towards the person involved.

The only real conclusions that can be drawn from this is that there are no conclusions. This, in itself, is the worrying thing. It's our word against their word, as no hard evidence has been presented to the community at large, and for security reasons / reasons of saving face, never will be.

I, for one can not really be bothered to spend any more time discussing it. I know the friends i've made in the game will remain friends, and that was really the only reason to play.

I will say to the people left behind, be wary of the amount of time you spend playing and try not to get dragged in. It is, after all, just a game.

Good post Matt.

I agree. It's all been said and denied and said again. It's time to stop beating this dead horse and just lay it to rest.