Why Ursan is a blessing
Sab
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Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Quote: Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook Actually, I wouldn't mind that at all. Again, titles, gold, rewards, all of that is just so much fluff to me. I play this game for fun. I set my own goals and things I want to achieve. My satisfaction comes from being able to obtain those goals - not what other players may think of the visible results of those goals or rewards. If you play GW like a single player game, sure.
Quote: Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook True, but the point of contention here was that UB takes little skill to use. I simply argued the fact that it is not alone in that category. Regardless of whether any of the other "idiot" builds can be used in any or all areas of the game, UB is not unique to this point. However, with the proper team (just like running full Ursanway), even any of the "idiot" builds could probably be successful in the hardest parts as well. Why was DoA relatively empty before Ursan, and filled with "Ursan lfg" now, if Ursan is not unique?
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About the same as the Party Animal and Sweet Tooth tracks, oh, and any of the other Eternal Hero or Conqueror statues, I imagine. And the last time I checked, the HoM was still about personal accomplishments and confer no in-game benefit whatsoever, nor will whatever benefit it confers to GW2 offer any player an in-game advantage over another. What's the going rate of runs nowadays?|
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
But it's still content included in the game. Personally speaking, I don't think even the "extra" content should be denied to anyone, if it is something they would enjoy playing. This is especially true for those casual gamers who simply may not have the time to dedicate to learning the intricacies of BEing their specific profession. Simply because someone plays GW part time does not mean they do not "deserve" to play and succeed in these areas using only the basic forms of tactics and strategies taught by playing through the game.
Again, no one is *denied* the endgame content, I don't know where you're getting this idea from. People either choose to put in the effort it takes to complete the endgame content and reap the rewards, or they choose not to. But if they choose not to, why do they deserve the same rewards?
Price check on Mallyx statues and LV titles pls
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Again, this does not describe UB. UB is hardly Godmode, it is hardly a panacea for some of the problems inherent in the game, so this is a moot point. But then again, how many skill balances have we had since GW:EN was released - at least four or five major ones I believe with at least a half dozen other minor ones in between. And you are right - other PvE skills have been nerfed (and buffed) along with the regular skills in some of these balance changes. Perhaps you should ask why in all this time and with all the other changes, UB has not except for one small update which actually made perfectly logical sense.
However, let me ask you this: at what point does an area created for an 8-man party become unbalanced when a two monk team can vanquish the area through some creative button mashing (without UB on either skillbar)? Quote: |
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IMHO if Ursan existed in rl, we could all be athlete-celebrity-geniuses in no time at all, which isn't fair to the people who dedicated time to learning something or were just born good at it. I'm siding with Sab on this one, just because I want everything in rl and that's what would make me happy doesn't mean I deserve it. Ursan takes away much if not ALL of the challenge of certain areas and the fact that someone whose been playing 4-6 months can put this on their bar and mash 3 buttons in no particular order, can be as good as someone whose been playing since release isn't fair at all.
But as so many other people are fond of pointing out - this is a game, it is not real life. Also as many other people are fond of pointing out - UB actually needs little skill in order to be used, therefore someone who uses UB exclusively will never "be as good as someone whose been playing since release." And since you have brought it up, I am sure many people on this board, both pro and anti Ursan can point to examples where players who have played since April of 2005 still "suck" even if they have never used UB. Anyone can throw on a typical CC or farming build and still be able to succeed with it no matter how long they have been playing the game. UB is hardly unique in that regard. What's the going rate for runs again?
That leaves Ursan, a ready-made, ArenaNet-approved gimmick.
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Well, not so far as I know - or at least not according to some of the intelligence tests I took as a kid. I simply do not need titles or praise from other players to validate my existence. Sweet Tooth and Eternal Hero/Conqueror are the same to me because they are both fluff that have no overall bearing on the game.Quote:
I would, except that 1, I'm too lazy to write one, and 2, ArenaNet does not allow that and I follow their laws. Therefore, until ArenaNet gives botting their official approval, I will never use that.|
Originally Posted by Sab
What's stopping anybody else from doing the same?
It's called the freedom to choose how you want to play the game.
Hanok Odbrook
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
About the same as the Party Animal and Sweet Tooth tracks, oh, and any of the other Eternal Hero or Conqueror statues, I imagine. And the last time I checked, the HoM was still about personal accomplishments and confer no in-game benefit whatsoever, nor will whatever benefit it confers to GW2 offer any player an in-game advantage over another. What's the going rate of runs nowadays?
What? Are you, pardon my french, stupid? A title requiring (before Ursan) a lot of skill and team building is in your opinion worth as much as a title you can BUY and CLICK to max level in few hours?
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
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That leaves Ursan, a ready-made, ArenaNet-approved gimmick.
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
I thought one of the key cornerstones of GW was "Skill over time spent"?
I agree most wholeheartedly, but I think the idea of skill over time spent has been dead for quite a while. Until they re-implement the idea of skill over time spent, we might as well use the tools they are giving us. (As monk it is fully unnecessary for me to grind the Norn title. The Ursans themselves can do that. I'll keep my regular build while they grind up to r10.)
---------------------------------------- I must clarify that I'd much rather Ursan was removed from the game. I just want to make the point that while it's here we might as well make the best use of it that we can, since it is a powerful, easy to use tool. I'll be glad when it's gone and when (maybe?) skill takes priority over time spent, but I don't see that happening ever while ArenaNet is the developer.
=HT=Ingram
Ursan was yet another stepping stone to drive away the people that made GW successful from the beginning. Indeed PvE skills was suppose to be a protection buffer from nerf bats from PvP. and as it turns out it has been. the down side has become more solo play then EVER before.. and what little multiplayer Cooperative action there is you have no choice but to use an Ursan build. If you do not you stand no chance in hell of getting people to play with outside of a good guild or alliance. As it is you get an invite they take 1 look at your skill bar and if no ursan you immediately kicked from the party.
That here in is the problem. Personally I don't give a crap anymore. I play it solo and will continue to do so for the rest of its existence now (maybe a year if your lucky). Its a single player game, with nothing of value in it except to waste a little time every once in a while.... At least until the GW2 beta start... so forgive me for saying I told you so, way back when this skill first hit... it would be a problem... Especially without the threat of a nerf bat to it for being over exploited... Oh and thanks to this skill alone, Gold sellers are back 1000 fold. Gee thanks Anet. I stopped reporting gold sellers as I just do not see the point anymore. for every 50 i report 100 more spam bots pop up... Its so bad now I have to contend with it even in emails to master account profiles!!! which is so god dam pathetic.... Buying gold for an online game is like having virtual sex with a $5 wh0re. Whats the point? I just wish every one of these communist pigs would just go away and allow a game to be for what it is instead of promoting CHEATING! misguiding_prophet
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Dervish has an extremely powerful hurting abilities? What? It's a perfectly balanced class - it can moderately well tank, deal damage at same level as warrior, yet has less armor, for exchange of a bit more hp.
And elementalist... Well, in EVERY RPG there is such class. In DnD it's Mystic Theurge/magician classes/clerics (death magic), in WoW there is a nuker, in Ragnarok Online it's High Wizard, in Diablo 2 it's Sorceress or Druid... It's just a standard class, like a healing cleric/monk or tanking warror/cyborg. Besides, a Necromancer can deal as much damage as elementalist, in HM even more (Spiteful Spirit ignores armor, and since monsters use skills/attack faster, it deals more damage than in NM - and mobs have increased armor, so their uber power is almost reduced to 0). Saying that,,at least 2 professions implies that (...)(perhaps all of them)'' means almost same as ,,all characters can deal a lot of damage''. So they are balanced... But you don't get the point. Ursan: 1. +200 health. 2. +20 armor. 3. Speed boost. 4. Armor-ignoring damage (about 100 every 4 seconds). 5. Mass weakness and increased physical damage. 6. Perma-knockdown and AoE damage. 7. Ability to hide 7 other skills when Ursan is down. 8. Everything said above is, as long as skills are being spammed, maintained even for 3 hours. The reason I mentioned the two was because I could clear most places in factions and eotn in HM using those two professions (in some places solo sufficed, and no I didnt use a secondary monk) without any difficulty. I dunno why you are complaining so much about its power, its a welcomed change by many. Those who dislike it are definitely a minority. I'd love to pwn Shiro using Ursan lol.
Sab
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Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
It's called the freedom to choose how you want to play the game.
What? A casual player who does not want to spend the same amount of time and effort as a more serious player should *not* be rewarded the same. This is fundamentally what MMORPGs are based on. If a player chooses to play casually, then he implicitly denies himself of the higher-end rewards which are reserved for serious players. He is not entitled to everything just because he bought the game, rather, he has the choice to play casually and accept that he won't get the better rewards, or take it a bit more seriously and earn the rewards.
This is where Ursan comes in - it allows casual players to obtain the same rewards as serious players, but without any of the effort. A casual player with Ursan is functionally just as good as a serious player with Ursan or a proper build. If your argument is that Ursan is the same as any other farming build, I've addressed this already in the form of a question: Why was DoA relatively empty before Ursan, and filled with "Ursan lfg" now, if Ursan is not unique?
Hanok Odbrook
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sab What? A casual player who does not want to spend the same amount of time and effort as a more serious player should *not* be rewarded the same. This is fundamentally what MMORPGs are based on. If a player chooses to play casually, then he implicitly denies himself of the higher-end rewards which are reserved for serious players. He is not entitled to everything just because he bought the game, rather, he has the choice to play casually and accept that he won't get the better rewards, or take it a bit more seriously and earn the rewards. I think the problem here is that you are confusing poor player with casual player. They are not one and the same. A casual player is simply one who may or may not have large chunks of free time to dedicate to more hardcore type of aspects of gaming. UB is the great equalizer in that it gives that player with little free time the opportunity to enjoy all areas of the game that they might not otherwise - no matter how much they would desire to do so in the "proper" way. Again, personally I don't have a problem with that. GW is a great game and I would simply like to have the largest amount of people given the opportunity to enjoy every aspect of it. That doesn't mean I think the p**s-poor players have a "right" to any given area, but simply that if a person plays through the game in a normal manner, the skills and tactics he picks up along the way should be more than enough to allow them the "right" to enter any area they would like to visit, without having to dedicate too much extra time on the more hardcore aspects of the game. That's what we have PvP for - a place where the truly good players can show off their prowess and the wannabes run home with their tails tucked between their legs.
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Unfortunately, the game was already reduced to that long before UB came into the picture. When players can simply send a solo bot into an area to farm, we have a problem. Naturally, this problem is not inherent to GW alone, but it is a symptom of the genre and a evidence that no matter how much we talk about balance in a game, it can never truly be achieved. That doesn't mean we need to dumb down the game to the lowest common denominator, but in a game designed for the casual player, certain concessions must be made to the core audience. Much has changed in GW since Prophecies was released, a lot that caters to the more hardcore type of player. GW was never supposed to be a game about grind - yet we have grind, GW was never supposed to be a game about leetism, yet we have leetism. I simply view UB, and an attempt to place a band-aid over some of the imperfect core mechanics of the game and bring it back to some of the things it was originally supposed to be about.|
Originally Posted by Abedeus
This is where Ursan comes in - it allows casual players to obtain the same rewards as serious players, but without any of the effort. A casual player with Ursan is functionally just as good as a serious player with Ursan or a proper build. If your argument is that Ursan is the same as any other farming build, I've addressed this already in the form of a question: Why was DoA relatively empty before Ursan, and filled with "Ursan lfg" now, if Ursan is not unique?
Because there are other areas that are more effective farming areas with most of the farming builds, and DoA was simply a place for the select few who cared to venture forth. UB has simply become the most effective tool now for this area. I certainly haven't seen Ursanway overtaking 600/Smite for the CoF run yet.
Sab
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Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
I think the problem here is that you are confusing poor player with casual player. They are not one and the same. A casual player is simply one who may or may not have large chunks of free time to dedicate to more hardcore type of aspects of gaming. UB is the great equalizer in that it gives that player with little free time the opportunity to enjoy all areas of the game that they might not otherwise - no matter how much they would desire to do so in the "proper" way. Again, personally I don't have a problem with that. GW is a great game and I would simply like to have the largest amount of people given the opportunity to enjoy every aspect of it. That doesn't mean I think the p**s-poor players have a "right" to any given area, but simply that if a person plays through the game in a normal manner, the skills and tactics he picks up along the way should be more than enough to allow them the "right" to enter any area they would like to visit, without having to dedicate too much extra time on the more hardcore aspects of the game. That's what we have PvP for - a place where the truly good players can show off their prowess and the wannabes run home with their tails tucked between their legs.
I used casual as a nice way of saying retardedly bad, but my point remains. Endgame areas are designed to give *more* of a challenge than normal areas - that's kind of the point. As such, players are expected to know *more* than just the bare minimum required to finish the game.
DoA was designed to be the most difficult of all endgame missions. It is substantially harder than any storyline content, for sure. Should a retardedly bad player with no real understanding of the game (finishing the game in NM doesn't require you to know much), be able to beat this area by C-Space 1-2-3? Ursan has reduced it to that.
enmitee
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Originally Posted by Sab
Since pugs are so "noob", play with guildies or friends? That seems like a pretty good idea. if that was a available idea to all, why the hell not. but it isnt. thus making UB a blessing
Abedeus
Why not? If your guild isn't playing together, change it. If you are the leader, get active people.
If you are in a PvP guild... Then don't play pve ;o I don't understand ,,why the hell not, but it isn't''. Care to elaborate? And I'm still waiting for a build that can do same what UB. I made a list of those things on page nr. 6. Skill that overpowered doesn't deserve to live.
enmitee
so tell me why there are still random PuGs?
Abedeus
Because all pugs fail, and ursan lets them not fail, although they would fail even with 600/smite?
gerg-nad
Please do not nerf Ursan Blessing.
If I am going to GRIND points out to increase my Norn Rank, this better not be for not. I detest the monotony of grinding points. When I first tried Ursanway team I was getting disheartened. This team is so overpowering and simple it take very little if any skill or thought. This is especially sad where many of the elite areas which gave you a sense of accomplishment, took some understanding of the game, team balance, and synergy, now can be done by any 3 year old and one skill. Just put this one skill on your bar, press it, then run around and use the set of only 4 skills when they come available to kill things. Oh BTW, before you do this spend weeks and GRIND a bunch of points in Norn to max your title, so you can do any area, mission, quest, HM or NM with ease. And BTW you don't need but one character class, since this skill is equally available and effective with any class. Healing may be the only skills or character class you may want as an alternative, but your heros will probably work just fine. So this may sound kinda negative, but the fact of the matter is the Ursan can be fun and it is very efficient. In elite missions, much of it is about efficiency and probability of success, so if you can do something in less than half the time with a very high likelihood of success thats the team I want to be on. I detest grinding points (because of the monotony), but have started grinding on a number of my 10 toons. If the skill is nerfed all my time spent Grinding Points will be for not as this PvE skills has motivated me to get my level up. I play all classes, 6 pretty regularly, and very much enjoy synergistic teams (teams where skills are complimentary). There still are a few areas that are using non-ursan synergistic team builds, and play these areas regularly. I have played all the elite areas and done dozens of runs for each. Whether it is DOA, Slavers, or Urgoz, The Deep, or even UW, FOW, Sorrows Furnace or Tombs. I was a staple at DOA before EotN and before and after the door glitch was fixed on Mallyx. I play not for titles, as they tend to be a grind, but for the interaction with real people and accomplishing the task. This is especially rewarding when the task takes skill, understanding, and teamwork, such as elite areas. So you cannot deny for a very efficienct and high probability of success, UB FTW in all of GW. jaeharys targaryen
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Dervish has an extremely powerful hurting abilities? What? It's a perfectly balanced class - it can moderately well tank, deal damage at same level as warrior, yet has less armor, for exchange of a bit more hp.
You. Fail. k? k.
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen
You.
Fail. k? k. K. You fail at noting this is PvE. The only way Dervish is better than other classes (we're talking about damage dealing) is that he can use his Avatars for much longer than in PvP (Eternal Aura). If we are talking about pure damage, Spiteful Spirit/MB + Rodgort/minion mastering is much better. Oh, and of course Ursan is better, but this elite is better than any other elite in game.
KennyC
Ursan Needs to be removed from the game, plain and simple. And while we are at it remove those damn consumables too.
It makes all rewards easily accessible to unskilled button mashers - Hard mode is supposed to be Hard, but with Ursan and these ridiculous consumables anyone can rampage through any area and vanquish it. Yes, I know we play this game for fun and yes I know that killing everything and winning is fun but there has to be a challenge, there has to be a sense of achievement and there has to be the knowledge that if you put weeks and months of hard work into your titles the person next to you needs to put the same time and effort into the game to achieve that you have. If he doesnt whats the god damn point in playing the game? The people that earned their titles with a modicum of skill now stand alongside people that use consumables and press 1,2,3,4 C SPACE as fast as they can without having to pay attention to the game. It's ridiculous! FFS - look at DOA! It was an ELITE area that a select few people that put in time and effort to learn the area and figure out how to win with skill and finesse - now its full of hundreds of 1,2,3,4 C SPACERS shouting Ursan R10 lfg! Ursan is a monumental mistake - erase it along with the consumables please!
MMSDome
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Originally Posted by enmitee
if that was a available idea to all, why the hell not. but it isnt. thus making UB a blessing
Wait so your saying you could get in a guild or make friends with out Ursan?
blue.rellik
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Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
It's called the freedom to choose how you want to play the game.
Hanok Odbrook i liek 2 use hacks lol!!!!11!!
enmitee
@abe your proving my point, there are PuGs who fail mainly because not everyone is as fprtuinate to find the right guild.
@mmsdome. i didnt say it was available to all. thoe abe was saying it was. so i was assuming everyone could get in a good guild[which they cant or not until they find one] skanvak
All the argument of pro-UB resume to this : this is a single player game so let me use my god mode that does nothing to your experience of playing.
Well GW is not a solo game. But this tend to be how Anet and some people here concieve it. I find that team play and competition with other was important. Title was meant to be able to compare player, but utimetaly Anet left every thing that spoil title of their meaning : hfff, UB... Like if the titles they put in the game mean nothing to them or anyone. When I play I want that something is at stake, with UB nothing is. What I am afraid of, if that they want to make a game that 12 y/o player or bad player could finish. Let's put it, if this is so, I don't want to play such a game. It is ok to play with bad or young player, it is a challenge to make them good player. But it the difficulty is so low that they will succeed without help, them what is the challenge for me or player better than me? One of the problem, I think, is that most gamecomputer designer don't know how to make real challenge for human. IA is so weak that given the same asset than a human, they will be beatten (except in chess but that is because their is a solution). The only way game designer now to make a game difficult is to cheat! So when they want to make their game easier they give a cheat to the player, that does not bother them. You want example of how badly Anet deals with difficulty : look at Zenelhun, the farm is easy because the AI is stupid (can't check her LOS) instead of making it check her LOS which would have made the game more realistic and harder, they diminished the drop rate though spoiling non farmer and farmer alike! They CHEATED. So When people complained that DoA was too difficult, common people couldn't finish the titles fast...etc... then they give them a cheat! Perfectly normal in their actual way of thinking. I was pretty happy to not be able to go in the DoA because I was planning my guild to put together to face the challenge. Well UB come, and I finished the whole thing in 3 hours (Mallyx included in a PUG). Well, now do I need to gather my guild to face the challenge? No, just go UB in the first UB PUG. I begin to think that it is the concept of MMORPG that is broken, because you can't make every one heroes, period.
KennyC
^^well said, I agree.
gerg-nad
Now that Ursan is here it must remain unchanged. To get your Norn level up you need to grind points and will become more powerful and more successful. The monotony of grinding points out to get higher levels of important skills is now a fact of PvE play in GW.
Here are some facts and logical conclusions about Ursan Blessing. 1. It is one of the most powerful skills in the game. - logical conclusion = Use it in the most difficult areas/parts of the game to improve efficiency and the probability of success. 2. It is a PvE skill and cannot be used by hero's - logical conclusion = Team up with real people as the team will be very powerful 3. It is equally available and usable by all classes- logical conclusion = All classes can do pretty much any area equally well, so little class discrimination. 4. You become more powerful with higher levels in Norn - logical conclusion Grind points and you will be rewarded with more power and ease with difficult areas. 5. It is very simple to use - logical conclusion = Even the novice player can use effectively and team synergy is simplified. 6. It is a bar skill not just a single skill - logical conclusion = Your active skill bar is predetermined making poor skill choices and team skill synergy irrelevant for all but the monks so speeds team formation and skill checking. Again, MY POINT IS, I despise grinding points and now I am grinding points, so this skill better not be nerfed or all my grinding will be for not. It is like spending money on a Ferrari and a few days after you enjoy it someone steals your car and replaces it with a bicycle.
KennyC
why do you buy the ferrari?
You bought it because its cool and not many people have one. But everyone has UB now and they are all driving around in their ferraris like so many identical clones bashing those C,1,2,3,4 SPACE buttons as fast as they can. It's ruined PVE, taken all the challenge out of it and made all titles worthless because they are now attainable by anyone.
Demandred
Not actually, its allowed my assasin main to get a mallyx statue in HoM
Edit: (submitted too soon >.>) how has it made ALL titles worthless? ok cool UB is so gonna help me get my last explorer and help me max wisdom. However i think it has made vanquisher and guardian alot easier to achieve but because you cant get it on your heros, it still requires some brain power if ur the only one using it and ur hero and henching like i do.
Abedeus
What if there are 3 ursans + healer? Any other combination of non-ursan players is worse than ursanway. Or 6 ursans + 2 healers. Ursan requires as much brain power as remembering your birth date.
Demandred
Ok, lets preted someone is going to vanquish an area, they are in a new guild with a marvellous 2 members, who are currently busy with other stuff, the outposts that allow entrance to the area are empty, oh oh wait, that means he cant go with more ursans and will have to take heros! :O what a surprise, so the player decides to take ursan blessing(a skill he has worked hard to max to reap its benifits in such a case) along, to ensure generic all round damage for those nasty blockers who are currently residing in the area, and he also starts picking his heros whom he will take, and Oh what a surprise hes made all the hero builds himself with his experience that hes gained through his GW experiences. Still only need that small amount of brain power for ursan blessing in this case? this was the case i was referring to, so perhaps think before posting?
Abedeus
Uhm, I'm not the one that has to think. Grinding 24/7 =/= hard work. Instead of grinding, he could just try to make a valid builds.
And other lesson - don't make a guild with 2 members, unless you aren't expecting... anything. Better join a larger guild with more members and a big alliance. And if someone choose UB, then made builds for his heroes... Who knows if they will work? If he gave your heroes builds at same level as those first given from A.Net (every char x/mo, resurrect and ,,capable of healing teammates'' - epic fail), he didn't learn a crap. Oh, I understand someone is forbidding you organizing a PuG vanquish with your precious UB? skanvak
Demandred,
What you are saying is an easy way to play GW alone. Even with heroes and henchmen HM is somehow easy if you take UB. Beside getting with a group and a good guild IS the fun in GW. So people asking to be able to solo the title are, again, making this MMORPG game meaningless. Already playing with heroes was pierceve to be easier than playing with pick up players. Now people can just play alone except the hardest of the hardest part, that is DOA (one of my guild member defeated Duncan alone with heroes, henchmen and UB to get there). The main point, if we want to limit the debate, is that UB is THE skill. Do you people say the same thing of the Crow or wolf blessing? No. And, btw, LoD got nerfed. All we want is UB to be somewhat in line with other elite skill, even is marginally better and avoid the one skill bar syndrom. Look at my proposal to fix it, I don't say that the damage should be lowered, only to have a real recharge time so that ALWAYS fighting in UB during a mission should not be possible.
Demandred
well to each his own, i personally do everything alone or with a friend or 2, there are a few things about ursan blessing that i do not like, such as how its made DoA too easy, and i can just see tormented weps going the ele sword route, which is worrying, however i like the fact that its nice to vanquish with, after getting canthan and elonian vanquisher the old fashioned way with heros hench and my trusty PvE build, i find UB a nice treat especially in Tyria. Perhaps change something in it to make it LESS easy to play, but dont break it altogether, its made vanquishing tyria alot more efficient to me.
KennyC
If you had trouble vanquishing before UB and now its easy, then thats a clear indicator that it's totally unbalanced skill.
The bottom line is that it needs either changing or removing. If you leave it like it is everyone will use UB and not use any other skills, people who before UB couldnt get vanquish, guardian and other titles for whatever reason (inexperience, low skill, crap pugs etc) will get those titles and other titles with ease. And those that actually worked and thought through their builds for those same titles will feel cheated. The very existence of this very busy UB thread and other threads like it prove that there is as issue that needs resolving, and it needs to be resolved quickly.
Hanok Odbrook
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Originally Posted by Sab
DoA was designed to be the most difficult of all endgame missions. It is substantially harder than any storyline content, for sure. Should a retardedly bad player with no real understanding of the game (finishing the game in NM doesn't require you to know much), be able to beat this area by C-Space 1-2-3? Ursan has reduced it to that. |
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Quote: Originally Posted by KennyC It makes all rewards easily accessible to unskilled button mashers - Hard mode is supposed to be Hard, but with Ursan and these ridiculous consumables anyone can rampage through any area and vanquish it. Yes, I know we play this game for fun and yes I know that killing everything and winning is fun but there has to be a challenge, there has to be a sense of achievement and there has to be the knowledge that if you put weeks and months of hard work into your titles the person next to you needs to put the same time and effort into the game to achieve that you have. If he doesnt whats the god damn point in playing the game? Quote: Originally Posted by Abedeus
Uhm, I'm not the one that has to think. Grinding 24/7 =/= hard work. Instead of grinding, he could just try to make a valid builds.
I work for a living. I play games for fun. Anyone who thinks games should be work has no clue what entertainment and play mean, obviously. To say someone should have to "work" at anything in a game is just being rediculous. To say that a good game provides a challenge that is suited to the individual playing would be correct. The point of playing any game is to escape the stress and troubles of everyday life - to stimulate the mind and body and allow them to recover from the strains of everyday life. We should be playing this game like we play any other - for fun and enjoyment. We should be playing this game to take satisfaction from being able to achieve goals by playing in the manner that is most fun and enjoyable to use. We should not be playing this game or any other in order to validate ourselves either in game or in the real world based upon how others view us.
UB cannot knock down foes who are imune to KD
UB has no defense against conditions
UB has no defense against HP stealing/draining skills
UB has no defense against energy drain skills
UB has no defense against damage reversal skills
UB has no defense against armor ignoring damage
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Originally Posted by skanvak
Last point, if you want cheap fun because you are working and want to go your pace then buy a solo game! There are dozens of very good solo game for that that are quite better than GW. GW is about competition with other player, not cheap and garanteed fun.
I usually refrain from responding to immaterial and irrelevant statements such as this, but I enjoy the entertainment this thread brings so .... Actually GW is a COORPG (Co-Operative RPG) and not an MMORPG.Quote:
UB can be interrupted while being cast|
Originally Posted by KennyC
But everyone has UB now and they are all driving around in their ferraris like so many identical clones bashing those
I work for a living. I play games for fun. Anyone who thinks games should be work has no clue what entertainment and play mean, obviously. To say someone should have to "work" at anything in a game is just being rediculous. To say that a good game provides a challenge that is suited to the individual playing would be correct. The point of playing any game is to escape the stress and troubles of everyday life - to stimulate the mind and body and allow them to recover from the strains of everyday life. We should be playing this game like we play any other - for fun and enjoyment. We should be playing this game to take satisfaction from being able to achieve goals by playing in the manner that is most fun and enjoyable to use. We should not be playing this game or any other in order to validate ourselves either in game or in the real world based upon how others view us.
"Because it's fun" is a pretty bad argument. You can use it to justify wanting anything in the game. I want a full set of FoW for my character but I don't want to farm for it. I want a shiny gold animal emote but I don't want to play HA. Or in the case of Ursan, I want to finish this elite mission but I don't want the challenge that comes with it. C,1,2,3,4 SPACE buttons as fast as they can. And what was DoA prior to Ursan - just a bunch of cloned teams running through the same area with rare exception, so UB has not changed the fact that Build Experimentation ends up being just running a clone build that is the most effective for any given area. Quote:
I think you misunderstand grinding in Guild Wars. Ursan requires grinding. If a player is sufficiently bad that he needs Ursan to get through certain areas, then that player needs to either learn to play better, or farm Norn points and blow up the problem with Ursan. Why you may appreciate the choice, why should grinding be a replacement for getting better at the game? If this game is not about grind, the second option should not exist - players needs to get better through learning, not get better through grinding.
As for elitism, what's the problem? Good players should be rewarded better than bad players, that's fundamentally how this genre works. Quote: Quote:
1 - Yes it is. It is not any weaker than any other comparable damage such as dark damage and chaos damage, but neither one of those damage types have such a huge buff against a particular type of monster that I recall, so yes, in terms of damage types Holy damage is unbalanced.
2 - Again, yes they are. Exactly what great price are you talking about? The handful of minutes it takes to complete the quests that reward them? Or the less than an hour it takes to farm the materials to craft them? Even less than that if you simply buy the materials. Gold cost is insignificant in this game - many platinum can be had in less than an hour, so there really is no great cost. 3 - Doesn't matter whether it's the entire area or not (although in many areas the entire area is possible), again, any and all areas should theoretically be balanced to the max party size allowable, therefore, whether it is right outside the portal, or on the other side of the zone, if any build can survive with little difficulty or with botting with less than the party max, then it is unbalanced. Quote: |
UB cannot knock down foes who are imune to KD
UB has no defense against conditions
UB has no defense against HP stealing/draining skills
UB has no defense against energy drain skills
UB has no defense against damage reversal skills
UB has no defense against armor ignoring damage
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The only real competition in the game involves the PvP arenas and the Challenge Missions. If you want true competition go play Linage or Eve Online.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sab
I think you misunderstand grinding in Guild Wars. Ursan requires grinding. If a player is sufficiently bad that he needs Ursan to get through certain areas, then that player needs to either learn to play better, or farm Norn points and blow up the problem with Ursan. Why you may appreciate the choice, why should grinding be a replacement for getting better at the game? If this game is not about grind, the second option should not exist - players needs to get better through learning, not get better through grinding.
And I didn't say I was happy with things like the grind titles, and to further the point, the Hall of Monuments. I think that both additions to the game have weakened the original premise. The point with UB is that a casual player can now actually spend the limited time he has advancing through the game instead of spending countless hours with trial and error.
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Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Well, if we don't play games for fun, then what the heck are we doing. I certainly don't go to work because its fun - I go because I have to. Last time I checked, no one is forced to buy or play a game, therefore, if it wasn't fun, we wouldn't be doing it. Therefore, I think fun is pretty big point here as the entire gaming industry's existence is based around that very concept. And yes, it can be used to justify wanting anything in any game, and it is up to the creators of that game to decide what they will and will not provide. Pre-Ursan, skilled casual players didn't have the time to find a party and vanquish DoA. Now they can.
I've never said that games shouldn't be fun? The fact is, there has to be rules within a game that may not be fun. Quote:
People who get runs through difficult content (e.g. HM vanquishing or guardian) does not justify the right for others to do the same with Ursan. Just because something is exploitable, it doesn't mean others should exploit it too, by the same or different means (take duping or the recent Mallyx exploit for example).|
Originally Posted by Sab
As for elitism, what's the problem? Good players should be rewarded better than bad players, that's fundamentally how this genre works.
And they are - with the self-satisfaction and knowledge that they have accomplished their goals and tested their skill to become better players. They are also rewarded with respect among their peers. If you are talking about the tangible in game rewards, well, I already answered that several posts ago - hardly rewarding when those items are easily bought and sold, or a simple (or not so simple run) can be bought to achieve the same.
And they are - with the self-satisfaction and knowledge that they have accomplished their goals and tested their skill to become better players. They are also rewarded with respect among their peers. If you are talking about the tangible in game rewards, well, I already answered that several posts ago - hardly rewarding when those items are easily bought and sold, or a simple (or not so simple run) can be bought to achieve the same.
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His limited time grinding the Norn title you mean? If a player has so little time to play, then he's probably just going through the storyline, which isn't that difficult to begin with. If he is truly stuck, he could look for advice on Wiki or the forums, or god forbid, ask for help ingame (it is a multiplayer game, after all). There's absolutely no need for a casual player to resort to Ursan.
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Take FoW armor, for example. Farming for a set of FoW isn't particularly fun, but it's meant to be super-expensive, that's what differentiates FoW armor from any other kind of armor. If you shortcut this by, say, Ebaying Gold, then that kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?
Similarly, elite missions exist for the challenge, that's what differentiates it from normal missions. And as a reward for the challenge, elite missions offer more titles and better drops than normal missions. If you circumvent the challenge by getting a run or Ursanwaying, then what's the point in playing these *elite* missions?
DoA was not designed for casual players, period. If you think a casual player (even a skilled casual player) should be able to complete it, you're mistaken. It was designed to take a huge chunk of your time, in planning and in actual play-time, and it was made to offer a much more difficult challenge than anything that existed in the game. That's the point of DoA.
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Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
UB can be interrupted while being cast UB cannot knock down foes who are imune to KD UB has no defense against conditions UB has no defense against HP stealing/draining skills UB has no defense against energy drain skills UB has no defense against damage reversal skills UB has no defense against armor ignoring damage Do you actually know what you're talking about, or are you just theorycrafting counters? I'd argue point-by-point, but it's easier to say chain-AoE KD (from a pack of Ursans) and Monks deal with the majority of those "counters" you listed. The other "counters" aren't prevalent enough in the game to matter. Quote:
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