Heh... I think I know what's bothering Ursan defenders, and here's a little dialog from the Simpsons:
,,- I thought you came here looking for a challenge?
- Duh, a challenge I could do!''
You want to do challenging missions in a much easier, effortless way. And because someone else worked on it so hard and is trying to take away your easy-mode, you are outraged ;o
Why Ursan is a blessing
Abedeus
Hanok Odbrook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sab
Quote: Originally Posted by Sab People who get runs through difficult content (e.g. HM vanquishing or guardian) does not justify the right for others to do the same with Ursan. Just because something is exploitable, it doesn't mean others should exploit it too, by the same or different means (take duping or the recent Mallyx exploit for example). The difference you are neglecting here is that the recent Mallyx exploit was the result of a hack and completely against the EULA. Runs, buying endgame items, and UB are all part of the in-game world, and as of this point in time, still completely legal and allowed by the game. Just because you feel that any one or all of these is an "exploit" does not make it wrong. It is simply part of the allowable game play Anet has included with their product.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sab I've never said that games shouldn't be fun? The fact is, there has to be rules within a game that may not be fun.
Take FoW armor, for example. Farming for a set of FoW isn't particularly fun, but it's meant to be super-expensive, that's what differentiates FoW armor from any other kind of armor. If you shortcut this by, say, Ebaying Gold, then that kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?
Similarly, elite missions exist for the challenge, that's what differentiates it from normal missions. And as a reward for the challenge, elite missions offer more titles and better drops than normal missions. If you circumvent the challenge by getting a run or Ursanwaying, then what's the point in playing these *elite* missions?
DoA was not designed for casual players, period. If you think a casual player (even a skilled casual player) should be able to complete it, you're mistaken. It was designed to take a huge chunk of your time, in planning and in actual play-time, and it was made to offer a much more difficult challenge than anything that existed in the game. That's the point of DoA. For the record, the bolded text above is my doing - for those people who would rather point such things out instead of furthering the debate along.
OK then. Is it about the challenge or is it about the end rewards? Once again, I think we already laid to rest the problem with the end rewards. You don't have to be a skilled player to reap the benefits, or even enter the zone for that matter. Therefore any status associated with the rewards is meaningless until they can no longer be traded and a mechanic is in place to prevent the "unskilled" from getting run through the area.
If it's about the challenge, then we also laid this to rest. The challenge of the area remains unchanged - the elite areas, like any other instanced zone in GW is static (aside from the typical random spawn locations, which are irrelevant). The only change to the area is how one chooses to go through it. Therefore those who REALLY ARE DOING IT FOR THE CHALLENGE can do so in the same way as before the existence of UB. For those who simply do not care to do it in that manner can use UB. If it is about the challenge and pushing the limits of your abilities, then the end rewards are inconsequential. Therefore if you are playing these areas for the challenge, there is no reason for you to use UB, nor is there any reason to deny someone else from doing otherwise, as their choice has no bearing on your desire to gain the maximum amount of challenge from the area.
Personally I think the UW/FOW armor is puke ugly. In fact, I have no desire for any of the elite armor in the game simply because of the looks (no matter what the HoM reqs are). I have one warrior with monument armor solely because I wanted one set of warrior armor from each campaign, and I found the monument armor the least objectionable. So, in that case, if the drops and rewards of the UW/FOW armor are not the reason for me to play through those areas, then why would I ever play them? Just as you point out, it is for the challenge of those areas. I play those areas solely to challenge myself and to reap the self-satisfaction I get from setting the goals and succeeding at them in those areas. That is all the validation I need to enjoy the game. If someone chooses to Ursanway through those areas for whatever reason, then so be it. How and why they do it has no effect whatsoever on how I choose to do it, and the satisfaction I get from doing it my way.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sab ANet have no idea what they're doing when it comes to skill balances, I'm surprised you give them this much credit. The main example off the top of my head is Soul Reaping, which was exploited for around two years before it was finally toned down (and they still didn't do a good job of it). Other issues in PvP traditionally take months to resolve, and the solution usually brings up more problems, which take even longer to fix.
ANet changes their stances on things, as well. Like reconnects, first stating that it couldn't be done, then finding a way to implement that a year later. I didn't realize I was giving them a lot of credit. I do give them credit for at least trying, which can't be said for many other developers. But as I said before, I don't agree with a lot of it. I don't agree with the Pet Nerf; I don't agree with having necessary PvP changes affect the skills in PvE. In fact, I have long been a proponent of separating PvP from PvE completely. If this was done from the outset, it would have negated any need to have PvE skills in the game in the first place. No one can argue the point that Anet is not infallible - they have made many mistakes in the past - the BMP is point in fact. However, in my long experience, Anet has done a lot more right by the industry and by their player base then they have done wrong. Like I said in my previous post, this issue could very well be a closed case in their minds, but I did forget to add that also for all we know, they could be working to resolve this issue as well. It's just that there is a lot more to take into consideration for a nerf with this issue than just the overpowered nature of the skill, as I believe I listed in a previous post here.
Quote:
Let me rephrase, instead of only having runners devalue titles, you want the runners *and* all the Ursanwayers to devalue the title too?|
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Please at least think of some counters that are actually, you know, common and dangerous
Plenty are common; nothing can really said to be dangerous in this game for any half-decent build either, but since this was to refute the statement that there are no drawbacks to UB, thanks for proving the point with your first comment regarding interrupts in the quoted portion. Other outside help, like Wiki, allows one to learn and improve as a player. Ursan does not.Quote:
Because there are no drawbacks in UB. Loosing skills? Yeah, right, you can carry Res signet, Rebirth Signet and as many hard resses as you want, then take UB as elite and you've got a perfect build with 12 skills. Let's not forget about Mesmer Inspiration stances, refrains, echoes, which you can use on yourself and then change to Ursan.
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook The difference you are neglecting here is that the recent Mallyx exploit was the result of a hack and completely against the EULA. Runs, buying endgame items, and UB are all part of the in-game world, and as of this point in time, still completely legal and allowed by the game. Just because you feel that any one or all of these is an "exploit" does not make it wrong. It is simply part of the allowable game play Anet has included with their product. |
Quote:
Quote:
Not really. Any one can copy a tried and true build; anyone can follow a walkthrough; anyone can follow orders while getting a run, but none of these necessarily increases one's abilities or skills. They just prove that they can do what they read or are told to do. It's how one chooses to use the tools given to them that makes the difference, including UB. UB can be the perfect tool for a player who wants to learn to be able to conquer hard mode or elite areas, but otherwise cannot do so for whatever reason. Just like a player in a strategy game may use easy mode on a mission they are having difficulty with to learn new tactics or strategies, so too can a player in GW use UB to learn the kinds of things they need in these areas that they normally wouldn't be able to learn because they can't last five minutes in the area.|
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
If it's about the challenge, then we also laid this to rest. The challenge of the area remains unchanged - the elite areas, like any other instanced zone in GW is static (aside from the typical random spawn locations, which are irrelevant). The only change to the area is how one chooses to go through it. Therefore those who REALLY ARE DOING IT FOR THE CHALLENGE can do so in the same way as before the existence of UB. For those who simply do not care to do it in that manner can use UB. If it is about the challenge and pushing the limits of your abilities, then the end rewards are inconsequential. Therefore if you are playing these areas for the challenge, there is no reason for you to use UB, nor is there any reason to deny someone else from doing otherwise, as their choice has no bearing on your desire to gain the maximum amount of challenge from the area.
The issue goes beyond, "Ursan doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter." It's more to do with how Ursan affects the game as a whole.
Other outside help, like Wiki, allows one to learn and improve as a player. Ursan does not.
Infractions of the EULA - through gold-buying, duping, botting and so forth - generally do not affect the individual player, so why should the devs bother punishing the exploiters? Because it goes against the very design philosophy of the game. Not to mention that if left unchecked, exploits will eventually devolve the game into a steaming pile of shit. My point is *not* that Ursan is against the EULA, it's the idea that while something may not have a direct effect within your instance, it can have an indirect effect over your experience and may eventually change the direction of the entire game. Quote:
Noun drawback (plural drawbacks) 1. A disadvantage; something that detracts or takes away. Doesn't matter whether any of these things affects only UB or every build under the sun - they are still drawbacks to using UB. The Mallyx incident was not an exploit - it was the result of a hack to the programming code, and completely illegal in terms of the EULA, which is why many accounts were banned. Again, in terms of challenge, that point has been refuted countless times. The challenge in any area remains static, the only difference is how the individual chooses to enter that challenge. Why should Raven and Volfen be equivelent? The point I made previously, which apparently you missed completely is that skills are NOT created equal, including normal elite skills, even within the same attribute, therefore there is no reason for the PvE skills, including the three elites to be any different. Searing Flames is arguably the most powerful Fire Magic elite; UB is the most powerful PvE elite. Can't make it any simpler than that. Quote: |
In the end, I suppose it's just the philosophy of what one considers more important in the game. I personally feel that bettering one's skill in strategy and battle tatics should take precidence over finding the right "gimmick" build for each area. In this way, it allows players to choose the kind of character they want to play (one of the core mechanics of the entire RPG genre since it began life with pencil & paper games in some kid's basement), and allows them to increase their skill at using that character by using skillful strategies and tactics.
Quote:
Again, instead of fixing their game and try to restore some meaning in rewards, they should go in the complete opposite direction and let everybody Ursanway through everything? Does it really matter? If you have one thing devalue some type of status, it doesn't matter how much more you pile on to it. Special event weekends: triple green drops, double elite XP capping; double PvP title points, etc. They all can be said to devalue titles and player status, yet they have existed for nearly three years. So, it appears to me Anet places a higher priority on offering players more options on choosing how they enjoy the game, over players who play for status symbols, which makes perfect sense in a game designed to be more casual as opposed to hardcore.
Quote:
Tactics are important, I agree, too bad Ursan doesn't allow a skilled player to perform any better than a bad player. |
Originally Posted by Sab
The issue goes beyond, "Ursan doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter." It's more to do with how Ursan affects the game as a whole.
In the end, I suppose it's just the philosophy of what one considers more important in the game. I personally feel that bettering one's skill in strategy and battle tatics should take precidence over finding the right "gimmick" build for each area. In this way, it allows players to choose the kind of character they want to play (one of the core mechanics of the entire RPG genre since it began life with pencil & paper games in some kid's basement), and allows them to increase their skill at using that character by using skillful strategies and tactics.
Infractions of the EULA - through gold-buying, duping, botting and so forth - generally do not affect the individual player, so why should the devs bother punishing the exploiters? Because it goes against the very design philosophy of the game. Not to mention that if left unchecked, exploits will eventually devolve the game into a steaming pile of shit. My point is *not* that Ursan is against the EULA, it's the idea that while something may not have a direct effect within your instance, it can have an indirect effect over your experience and may eventually change the direction of the entire game. Punishing of exploiters really has nothing to do with the philosphy of the game. It's really about how the devs view illegal activities like hacking and fair play. Everyone can use UB if they so desire - it's an entirely personal choice based upon what kind of play experience you want to get from the game. Hackers and botters give themselves an unfair advantage over others by nature of their illegal activities, therefore need to be shut down, as you so eloquently put it. The fact that an MMO changes direction is part of the nature of the beast - it is simply one's opinion on whether the new direction is for the better or for the worst based upon one's own personal desires. SW Galaxies is point in fact - many hated the face lift, an equal number welcomed it. To think that GW would not change, especially in the face of new MMO releases along with the upcoming release of GW2, is complete idiocy. Quote:
Keyword: allows. Wiki allows players to use their own thinking and adapt their builds for specific areas.
What exactly does Ursan allow a player to learn that he could not learn better from using a normal build, researching Wiki, asking a friend, or posting here on Guru? More than likely, players who use Ursan will be the type that does not want to learn to play. Those who do want to improve will have better options for learning. Quote: |
Quote:
While the game is designed for casual players (and indeed the majority of the game is geared towards that audience), why bother implementing content designed specifically for hardcore players (HM, DoA, etc.), if anybody can get through them? This is fundamentally my problem with their design of these areas, and with people who support Ursan.
Hard mode should be hard for everybody. If it's not, then why bother making *hard* mode? Just make casual mode and ask the good players to take off their armor. Casual players will enjoy that a lot more, as they won't have to run Ursanway all day. I think that would be a better approach to gearing HM to the casual audience, rather than designing hard content which is actually somewhat challenging for them. The latter option, which is what they chose to do, would make a lot more sense if Hard Mode *was* meant to be challenging for them.
Quote:
In terms of devaluing, it's not really how many, but how fast. Be it one or one hundred ways - it's really the same to me, it just happens all the quicker with the more options that you have. Just like Survivor, be it just the double XP weekends or that coupled with the Kilroy dungeon, it doesn't really matter - to me it is just as devalued with one as it is with both. At least with more options you can pick your own cup of tea so to speak. Really - if some of these areas are supposed to be hard, then why can a solo or dual team build farm some them with little difficulty - with as much skill as the typical UB player needs?|
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Punishing of exploiters really has nothing to do with the philosphy of the game. It's really about how the devs view illegal activities like hacking and fair play. Everyone can use UB if they so desire - it's an entirely personal choice based upon what kind of play experience you want to get from the game. Hackers and botters give themselves an unfair advantage over others by nature of their illegal activities, therefore need to be shut down, as you so eloquently put it. The fact that an MMO changes direction is part of the nature of the beast - it is simply one's opinion on whether the new direction is for the better or for the worst based upon one's own personal desires. SW Galaxies is point in fact - many hated the face lift, an equal number welcomed it. To think that GW would not change, especially in the face of new MMO releases along with the upcoming release of GW2, is complete idiocy.
I think you slightly missed my point. Someone who exploits can gain an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't, but why should the one who doesn't exploit, care? If someone Ebays their FoW armor, why should someone who got it the fair way, care? After all, someone Ebaying on the other side of the game does not suddenly make your farming harder. Look at this from the FoW farmer's perspective - how does Ebaying affect you personally?
Sure it matters. If not, then why not just implement a /maxtitles command that lets players instantly max out their titles? The more ways of devaluing an achievement, the less valuable it will become. My point is that if it does, then you can also see how Ursan - which you insist doesn't affect my experience of the game - can also affect me. Quote:
Well, experience is everything. Wiki and a strategy guide can give you a broad idea of what to expect, but nothing replaces the knowledge you gain from actually going through an area. I can use Sorrow's Furnance and the Titan Quests as a case in point. Even with wiki, if it wasn't for the one subquest that allows you to explore SF, I would have been at a severe disadvantage for the other quests. With the Titan Quests, I knew what to expect, but it wasn't until a few times through them that I really was able to work out viable strategies to make them "easy." In fact, just in the last day or so, for the first time, I was able to complete Defend NKP without Graywind getting killed - and this with a "weaker" team based on the fact I was using secondary characters with non-ideal builds. Wiki would never have been able to teach me to do that.
I don't think UB is the perfect solution to any of the problems in GW, but at least it opens up more opportunities for players to play through and experience other parts of the game that they normally would not be able to experience, and be able to become better players as a result of it - if they so choose. An unfortunate side effect is that the poor player can also benefit from this, but as the old saying goes, I would rather ten criminals go free than to convict one innocent man. Quote: While the game is designed for casual players (and indeed the majority of the game is geared towards that audience), why bother implementing content designed specifically for hardcore players (HM, DoA, etc.), if anybody can get through them? This is fundamentally my problem with their design of these areas, and with people who support Ursan. Hard mode should be hard for everybody. If it's not, then why bother making *hard* mode? Just make casual mode and ask the good players to take off their armor. Casual players will enjoy that a lot more, as they won't have to run Ursanway all day. I think that would be a better approach to gearing HM to the casual audience, rather than designing hard content which is actually somewhat challenging for them. The latter option, which is what they chose to do, would make a lot more sense if Hard Mode *was* meant to be challenging for them. |
And that's really what this all boils down to. What kinds of options can we give to the players that allow them to play in the way the most enjoy within a certain set of peramaters for the game? Things like SF and HM were added to the game to give players something more to do after they finished one chapter and while they were waiting for the next. HM especially was created for those who felt the game up to that point was not challenging enough. It gets back to how you want to enjoy the game. I choose not to use UB as I would rather play my characters with the type of build I have most fun with, and use tactics rather than builds to complete tough areas. That's how I get my enjoyment out of the game. Others prefer to change builds on the fly. Still others, as we now see, prefer to use UB. I personally don't feel any one of these options should be more "right" than any other. It should be a personal choice that is formed within the parameters of the game - just like someone who prefers to be run through rather than play through the storyline. If that's how they get enjoyment from the game, then I am glad they paid their 50 bucks to do so, which keeps the GW servers up and running.
Quote:
My point is that if it does, then you can also see how Ursan - which you insist doesn't affect my experience of the game - can also affect me. The problem we run into here, then is what is the definition of an exploit. Certainly one can exploit the AI defects to make a quest or area easier. One can make the Last Day Dawns quest easier by starting from Temple of Ages. Who is to say something like that isn't an exploit, but a different way to solve a task? Technically, UB is not an exploit - the skill is being used exactly how it was designed. In terms of Gold Farming and things like eBaying - that hurts the bottom line profitability of the developer and publisher, so actually falls outside of the perspective of "exploit." Personally speaking, again, people who eBay or play the game differently have thus far no bearing on my experience of the game or the satisfaction I get from playing it. That's just me. Do "normal" farming players have a viable beef about UB lowering prices? In one perspective they do - there's no doubt that UB can and does accelerate the price drop of high end items. But again, as has been mentioned many times before, so do many other factors, so UB is not the sole culprit here. However, we can't base a nerf solely on what a small faction of the player base decides is detrimental. We have to look at the big picture and what can be termed to be the "normal" type of game play environment here.
Capblye makes a good point. Even in a single-player off-line game, choices within game design and direction have to be made that won't necessarily please everyone. In a game such as GW, we know that they certainly won't. Therefore, we have to decide what is more important - accessibility or status. If history proves anything, accessibility sells more games than status does.
Players who enjoy the challenge that elite areas and HM have to offer still have the choice to play "normally" and experience every bit of the challenge those areas have to offer and enjoy the satisfaction they get from victory. Players who simply want to mindlessly button mash now also have that option. If that's how they get their kicks, then so be it. So go ahead and implement /maxtitle. It still won't change the way I go about "earning" them, nor detract from the satisfaction I get from having earned them while playing the game in the manner which I found most enjoyable. Nor will if affect the fact that I simply don't care about what other players think of how I earned those titles - I simply don't need other people to grovel and throw accolades upon me every time I am in an outpost simply because of some piece of armor, a title, or other status symbol - that's not why I play this, nor any, game. If someone is playing a game for this reason, then they are gaming for all the wrong reasons.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sab
The difference between Ursan and other gimmick builds is that other gimmick builds range from being decent, to being on par with other builds, to downright failing. 55/SB tanking works for much of the game, but when you run into direct counters, you might as well /resign. SF is pretty good for most of the game, but it's terrible against high-level or foes resistant to fire. On the other hand, Ursan is an unchanging set of four skills that allows you to steamroll through 99.9% of PvE with the same or better efficiency than any other build.
The "elite" players aren't the ones devaluing the titles, it's the ones who want to appear "elite" but who are somehow incapable of obtaining them the regular way. They're the ones using Ursan, or offering/getting runs, or devaluing achievements through other means. One point of contention first - Actually I have found SF and my Pyro to work quite well in fire resistant areas like the RoF. Fire resistant foes still suffer burning and still run from AoE affects, and I have found both to often work better than the typical solution of bringing water magic skills.
But really, isn't the point of Build Experimentation (finding the most ideal build to suit an area - i.e. gimmick) a form of exploiting in and of itself? Isn't that the whole idea of BE - to "exploit" the weakness and defects of the enemy and it's AI? Therefore, shouldn't a player who takes a less viable build into an area be deserving of better rewards for success than the player to fine tunes to the perfect build since the first player was able to succeed against a more difficult scenario?
You're a also bit off base with your last statement. Again, "exploits" like running have been around long before UB, and titles have been getting devalued even before Nightfall came out. And you can't argue the fact that with or without UB, that the "elite" players devalue such area status when they hand over (either for free or gold) some high end item to a player who did not "obtain" it in the "regular way." Therefore, really, who is to say what the "regular" way should be? And who is to say how much "skill" is enough? Even with the Level 10 update, doesn't it take some modicum of skill to reach that level and get through enough of the game to the point that UB is unlocked for that character? If not, then is that really the fault of the player for not becoming skilled at the game or is the fault of the game for not being able to teach the player the skills necessary to complete all areas of the game?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
And that's really what this all boils down to. What kinds of options can we give to the players that allow...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
The problem we run into here, then is what is the definition of an exploit. Certainly one can exploit...
You went off on a tangent, arguing points which has nothing to do with what you quoted. The "elite" players aren't the ones devaluing the titles, it's the ones who want to appear "elite" but who are somehow incapable of obtaining them the regular way. They're the ones using Ursan, or offering/getting runs, or devaluing achievements through other means. One point of contention first - Actually I have found SF and my Pyro to work quite well in fire resistant areas like the RoF. Fire resistant foes still suffer burning and still run from AoE affects, and I have found both to often work better than the typical solution of bringing water magic skills.
But really, isn't the point of Build Experimentation (finding the most ideal build to suit an area - i.e. gimmick) a form of exploiting in and of itself? Isn't that the whole idea of BE - to "exploit" the weakness and defects of the enemy and it's AI? Therefore, shouldn't a player who takes a less viable build into an area be deserving of better rewards for success than the player to fine tunes to the perfect build since the first player was able to succeed against a more difficult scenario?
You're a also bit off base with your last statement. Again, "exploits" like running have been around long before UB, and titles have been getting devalued even before Nightfall came out. And you can't argue the fact that with or without UB, that the "elite" players devalue such area status when they hand over (either for free or gold) some high end item to a player who did not "obtain" it in the "regular way." Therefore, really, who is to say what the "regular" way should be? And who is to say how much "skill" is enough? Even with the Level 10 update, doesn't it take some modicum of skill to reach that level and get through enough of the game to the point that UB is unlocked for that character? If not, then is that really the fault of the player for not becoming skilled at the game or is the fault of the game for not being able to teach the player the skills necessary to complete all areas of the game?
Quote:
I don't know of solo or dual teams which can even be compared to Ursan, in terms of overall power. I explained the difference between Ursan and other gimmicks before.|
Originally Posted by skanvak
Again partial logic, Hanok, answering us with rethoric trick will never convince us.
In terms of devaluing, it's not really how many, but how fast. Be it one or one hundred ways - it's really the same to me, it just happens all the quicker with the more options that you have. Just like Survivor, be it just the double XP weekends or that coupled with the Kilroy dungeon, it doesn't really matter - to me it is just as devalued with one as it is with both. At least with more options you can pick your own cup of tea so to speak. Really - if some of these areas are supposed to be hard, then why can a solo or dual team build farm some them with little difficulty - with as much skill as the typical UB player needs?
one example : you said that seling high end item devalue elite area. That a partial reasonning as we are speaking of title and hall's statue that cannot be sold. It can even be consider false as people buying those item has to get lots of money one way of another. You want to know more. I don't get my elite items from farming or buying most of the time. They are given to me by the member of my guild. And that reflect better than anything my status in the game. Beside trading had to the game and give the high end player ressources to get other thing he wants. So you are failing to make any point. Actually, this debate, like all the threads before it began because of the issue of players using full UB teams in DoA, and that they are not deserving of the rewards for doing so. In regards to how you have acquired the rewards, that is pretty much my case in point. It does say alot about your status in the game when you feel you should be able to get those rewards for essentially doing nothing, yet criticize those who, at the very least, are playing through the required area. Thus, the rewards are devalued by such as yourself who basically get them handed to them on a silver platter. Doesn't matter what reasons a trade system is in place for in a game, if it is the matter of the status of a particular item, then according to the arguments put forth here, than anyone who does not get them the "right" way devalues the status of them and the area from which they are acquired. Quote:
Think about why people use Ursan:
- To finish one-off missions like Vanquisher/Guardian, in which case it may be too difficult or time-consuming with normal builds. If these people actually wanted to learn, they wouldn't be running Ursan in the first place. I doubt they'd get Vanquisher or Guardian a second time with a normal build. - To farm, in which case in some areas it's the most efficient, brainless build with the least chance of failure. There's no reason for these players to change builds when farming is all about efficiency. Wiki provides enough information, such as mob skill bars and mob composition, for players to make a decent group build. For those who do want to learn, they can learn far more from Wiki than they can from Ursan. Quote: |
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, I have found the same holds true against Destroyers, except I don't rely on the burning skills as much. Otherwise, there's not much in terms of difference that I have noticed from one campaign to another that has forced me to change my strategies or tactics. EotN is a bit more challenging because of the welcome upgrade to the mobs, but that's been pretty much it from my perspective.|
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
One point of contention first - Actually I have found SF and my Pyro to work quite well in fire resistant areas like the RoF. Fire resistant foes still suffer burning and still run from AoE affects, and I have found both to often work better than the typical solution of bringing water magic skills.
If you want to argue specifics, then: Destroyers.
If you want to argue specifics, then: Destroyers.
Quote:
Redux:
If it's not, then why bother making *hard* mode? Things like SF and HM were added to the game to give players something more to do after they finished one chapter and while they were waiting for the next. HM especially was created for those who felt the game up to that point was not challenging enough. Again, it gets back to how you want to enjoy the game. Someone who exploits can gain an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't, but why should the one who doesn't exploit, care? ... how does Ebaying affect you personally? Technically, UB is not an exploit - the skill is being used exactly how it was designed. In terms of Gold Farming and things like eBaying - that hurts the bottom line profitability of the developer and publisher, so actually falls outside of the in-game definition of "exploit." Personally speaking, again, people who eBay or play the game differently have thus far no bearing on my experience of the game or the satisfaction I get from playing it. Quote: |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sab
... how does Ebaying affect you personally?
Technically, UB is not an exploit - the skill is being used exactly how it was designed. In terms of Gold Farming and things like eBaying - that hurts the bottom line profitability of the developer and publisher, so actually falls outside of the in-game definition of "exploit." Personally speaking, again, people who eBay or play the game differently have thus far no bearing on my experience of the game or the satisfaction I get from playing it.
The stuff about the exploits is completely irrelevant. That bolded part is all that's needed. Recognizing a threat - then countering that threat, is fundamentally what this genre is about. Build-making just happens to be GW's way of doing this.
Actually, that is not what the RPG genre is, or ever was about - nor have I seen that to be the axiom for MMO's either. In terms of GW, yes that is one strategy that is commonly used, and shows why it is a fundemental flaw in the game - the game is easy if you use the right build, which is as simple and brainless as copying from wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Someone who exploits can gain an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't, but why should the one who doesn't exploit, care? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game
Quote:
Again, you can use that argument to demand or justify anything in the game. It's not a very strong argument.|
Originally Posted by Sab
The value of items (both the perceived value and the trade value) has more to do with its rarity rather than the number of bad players who have them. 14/15% unconditionals, for example, are both expensive and highly desired, even though anyone with enough money can get one (if they can find one for sale these days). Instead of circulating rare items only around the "elite", the "elite" are happy as long as the items remain rare and thus the prices remain high. So trading, which by itself does not make an item numerically more common, would not have much of an impact on either the trade value or the perceived value.
Without getting into a whole discussion about the economics of trade, et al., supply and demand is the main determining factor in the value of any item. An item will only remain rare and valuble so long as the supply does not outpace the demand. So long as their are farmers who increase the supply and sell them to those who want them, then the value and rarity of those items will decrease over time as the demand continues to be met. This will happen whether UB is in the game or not. If elite players want to maintain the status of these items (which seems to be the bigger point of contention here), then they must be prevented from being acquired by those who do not "deserve" them by not taking a balanced team through the area in which they can be acquired.
If it's not, then why bother making *hard* mode? Quote:
If they want to get better at the game, why would they be using Ursan in the first place? They would learn a whole lot more if they didn't.
Quote: Things like SF and HM were added to the game to give players something more to do after they finished one chapter and while they were waiting for the next. HM especially was created for those who felt the game up to that point was not challenging enough. Again, it gets back to how you want to enjoy the game. |
Quote:
... how does Ebaying affect you personally?
Technically, UB is not an exploit - the skill is being used exactly how it was designed. In terms of Gold Farming and things like eBaying - that hurts the bottom line profitability of the developer and publisher, so actually falls outside of the in-game definition of "exploit." Personally speaking, again, people who eBay or play the game differently have thus far no bearing on my experience of the game or the satisfaction I get from playing it.
I think you're playing GW as a single player game, and you're suggesting that everybody who shows off is somehow playing the game "for the wrong reasons." That's why you can display a title, that's why there are max title announcements, that's why you can see people winning Halls. People get certain titles for the knowledge that very few have the ability to achieve it. Similarly with items - do you think people get rare and expensive items to not show off? Perhaps you don't care much about others' gameplay, but I can assure you *a lot* of other people do, and they do not want new ways of shortcutting their achievements, EULA-breaking or not.
Quote:
