1.) You act like every guild plays the same build. There are so so so many different builds that the great guilds run and win with. And this is NOT always best option. Rarely, yes. But the large majority of any single skill you name has a very specific counter. Some have more counters and downsides then others, but in the right build can excel. Fear of breaking the norm. is the down fall of all intelligent people.
Er... do you watch observer mode ever? Warriors always have an IAS. No exceptions, ever. Warriors also never bring extensive antiblock skills because the options for a warrior suck. If you want unblockable, you bring a guiding hands derv or a rigor mortis sin. Warriors can't maintain that kind of stuff and still be effective.
No, warrior's cunning doesn't count as good. It's up 15-20 seconds for every 60, making it completely unreliable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
2.) Good guilds know that cookie warriors can be shutdown by having them run around looking for a target that can't block, the entire match. Even for the few classes that rarely don't have a def. skill, the monks make sure to focus on them with protection.
The point of a warrior is to beat the other team into submission. All those fancy prots, snares, and debuffs take an awful lot of time and energy to work, especially if you're constantly changing targets. Given enough time, the other team will either run out of energy or make a mistake, letting you kill something. This is called pressure.
The alternative is a spike build, in which you attempt to completely bypass the enemy's defenses by hitting through prot, and fast enough that they can't react. Warriors generally have a small spike, but they can't compare to the spiking ability of classes like the assassin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
3.) I never said I was smarter or understood the game better then everyone else. The irony is, that's exactly what EVERYONE else is doing. I love how you just tried to turn that around on me. Very cute. The whole point of what I am saying is: Quite pretending that the build you use is the God Mode of Guild Wars. It's not.
I think everyone here can safely say they understand the game better than you do. There aren't an infinite number of viable builds, and all viable builds for warriors share some common characteristics - namely IAS, a way of dealing with kiting, and some nasty damage. If your build can't do all three of those things, it is hopelessly bad.
Also, the build I use? Most of my experience with warriors comes from grouping with decent warriors as a melee buffing character or getting my face beaten in by decent warriors while I monk. I don't have any pet builds, I just prefer my team not use stuff that sucks.
Flem
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2005
NA
N/Me
20 Feb 2008 at 19:36 - 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Er... do you watch observer mode ever? Warriors always have an IAS. No exceptions, ever. Warriors also never bring extensive antiblock skills because the options for a warrior suck. If you want unblockable, you bring a guiding hands derv or a rigor mortis sin. Warriors can't maintain that kind of stuff and still be effective.
No, warrior's cunning doesn't count as good. It's up 15-20 seconds for every 60, making it completely unreliable.
Yes. Yes I do watch them. Rigor Mortis is a good skill and very useful in a lot of situations. I agree with that.
Guiding hands is not that great, imo. I'm sure there are great uses for it, but the recharge is 30 sec for 2-5 hits. If you have an IAS that does not amount to much. For another class to bring a skill to make your class better, it better be awesomesauce. Warriors cunning, while not a super sweet skill or anything, will give you more unblocked hits with an IAS.
Quote:
The point of a warrior is to beat the other team into submission. All those fancy prots, snares, and debuffs take an awful lot of time and energy to work, especially if you're constantly changing targets. Given enough time, the other team will either run out of energy or make a mistake, letting you kill something. This is called pressure.
The alternative is a spike build, in which you attempt to completely bypass the enemy's defenses by hitting through prot, and fast enough that they can't react. Warriors generally have a small spike, but they can't compare to the spiking ability of classes like the assassin.
Actually, a warrior is more useful in GvG using those "fancy snares" if they are attempting to apply pressure. But, in any case, you pretending that it's ok for a warrior to run around and switching targets the whole match instead of actually doing anything....baffles me. Switching targets a couple times to add to a spike, snare, or other pressure on casters is a good thing....as long as you actually succeed in any of those.
Quote:
I think everyone here can safely say they understand the game better than you do. There aren't an infinite number of viable builds, and all viable builds for warriors share some common characteristics - namely IAS, a way of dealing with kiting, and some nasty damage. If your build can't do all three of those things, it is hopelessly bad.
Also, the build I use? Most of my experience with warriors comes from grouping with decent warriors as a melee buffing character or getting my face beaten in by decent warriors while I monk. I don't have any pet builds, I just prefer my team not use stuff that sucks.
Why do you ASSUME that everyone here understands the game better then me? Childish remark much? You've never been in a party with me and never seen me play. Everything else is your assumption from what you have read on a biased forum and a recycled version of what everyone else is saying.
Dr Strangelove
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Wasting away again in Margaritaville
[HOTR]
20 Feb 2008 at 20:06 - 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Yes. Yes I do watch them. Rigor Mortis is a good skill and very useful in a lot of situations. I agree with that.
Guiding hands is not that great, imo. I'm sure there are great uses for it, but the recharge is 30 sec for 2-5 hits. If you have an IAS that does not amount to much. For another class to bring a skill to make your class better, it better be awesomesauce. Warriors cunning, while not a super sweet skill or anything, will give you more unblocked hits with an IAS.
Guiding hands and rigor mortis are more useful for spikes than pressure. Guiding hands is enough to let you get your spike off, which is all that should matter. If you're going to do something with rigor mortis, you have to do it quickly, as it's pretty much a red siren screaming "PROT ME NOW". There's no way you're going to be able to beat on them for an extended period of time.
The uptime on warrior's cunning just sucks. Yipee, you're unblockable for 17 seconds, nice. I'll just throw up a spirit bond or an SoA. Now you're in exactly the same position - you need to target swap. It might have some value if it was vastly shorter duration and recharge - say 5 seconds up for 30s recharge, allowing a hammer warrior to knocklock me whenever he feels like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Actually, a warrior is more useful in GvG using those "fancy snares" if they are attempting to apply pressure.
[skill]bull's strike[/skill] [skill]rush[/skill] nobody is kiting anywhere now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
But, in any case, you pretending that it's ok for a warrior to run around and switching targets the whole match instead of actually doing anything....baffles me. Switching targets a couple times to add to a spike, snare, or other pressure on casters is a good thing....as long as you actually succeed in any of those.
If you're good, you minimize the amount of time you spend switching targets. However, that can be an extremely complex topic. If you're interested, there's some very good posts by people better than me on it in the team quitter forums. Damage is damage, no matter who you're applying it to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Why do you ASSUME that everyone here understands the game better then me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Either way, Heal Sig just gives an extended amount of dbl dmg. Man I really hope you aren't snared. Or get degen'd. Or blocked. Or anything else other then a perfect, stationary dummy to hit.
But, in any case, you pretending that it's ok for a warrior to run around and switching targets the whole match instead of actually doing anything....baffles me.
So, your solution to taking to much damage from Frenzy is using Heal Sig, which is -40 armor what is also about double damage? As a def. your build requires you to take 4 times more damage then normal? That sounds like a good way to get 2-shotted.
Mending is an extremely common skill, does that make it a viable option? That's what "cookie cutter" refers too. Everyone uses it, if it's the best idea or not.
Guiding hands and rigor mortis are more useful for spikes than pressure. Guiding hands is enough to let you get your spike off, which is all that should matter. If you're going to do something with rigor mortis, you have to do it quickly, as it's pretty much a red siren screaming "PROT ME NOW". There's no way you're going to be able to beat on them for an extended period of time.
The uptime on warrior's cunning just sucks. Yipee, you're unblockable for 17 seconds, nice. I'll just throw up a spirit bond or an SoA. Now you're in exactly the same position - you need to target swap. It might have some value if it was vastly shorter duration and recharge - say 5 seconds up for 30s recharge, allowing a hammer warrior to knocklock me whenever he feels like it.
Um, you just downed WC for the EXACT same reason you boasted for Guiding Hands... Seriously.
Quote:
[skill]bull's strike[/skill] [skill]rush[/skill] nobody is kiting anywhere now.
Snaring someone has more advantages then just to stop kiting, but yes. Rush and B.S. is a good combo in many situations. Once again, though, it's just one combo of many workable builds effective in PvP.
Quote:
If you're good, you minimize the amount of time you spend switching targets. However, that can be an extremely complex topic. If you're interested, there's some very good posts by people better than me on it in the team quitter forums. Damage is damage, no matter who you're applying it to.
I don't deny that it's a complex topic. And damage is damage, but...... it is important who you target and when you target them. Some would even say it's one of the most important aspects of PvP, even.
Quote:
I'd have more, but there's been a lot of deleted posts
Um...I stand behind all of those quotes except the one that I already apologized for not understanding what the person was meaning. I own up to my mistakes. It's a virtue.
All those are valid points and I'm still willing to explain any of what I was saying.
Earth
Always Outnumbered
Join Date: Jul 2006
20 Feb 2008 at 20:42 - 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Snaring someone has more advantages then just to stop kiting, but yes. Rush and B.S. is a good combo in many situations. Once again, though, it's just one combo of many workable builds effective in PvP.
Most PvP monks actually know how to remove conditions! So your little snare is gone almost instantly.
Pyro maniac
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
20 Feb 2008 at 20:51 - 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Um, you just downed WC for the EXACT same reason you boasted for Guiding Hands... Seriously.
dervish rely on spiking. Warriors less. (which doesn't mean they can't of course)
on any of your 15 posts: you're wrong. just accept it
Flem
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2005
NA
N/Me
20 Feb 2008 at 20:53 - 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth
Most PvP monks actually know how to remove conditions! So your little snare is gone almost instantly.
True, but those monks that are good at removing snares are equally good at protecting against attacks.
So, first I get yelled at because they don't think that the monks are capable at keeping Guardian and Aegis up (as well as whatever def skills the player has), and then I get yelled at because they think the monks are more cappable of removing conditions?
I'm getting yelled at for all aspects of the game, now.... Just so I know all of you guys' positions. Are you for or against PvP monk's capabilities?
Flem
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2005
NA
N/Me
20 Feb 2008 at 20:57 - 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyro maniac
dervish rely on spiking. Warriors less. (which doesn't mean they can't of course)
on any of your 15 posts: you're wrong. just accept it
K, one more to add to the team up.
Well:
1.) We are talking about warrior, not dervish.
2.) He said one thing about the skill GH and then said the exact opposite about WC. That's what the quote was. Read before you flame.
3.) Blind, blanket statements FTL. Be specific, and come up with your own words. Quit trying to look cool in front of the other flamers.
Dr Strangelove
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Wasting away again in Margaritaville
[HOTR]
20 Feb 2008 at 20:59 - 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Um, you just downed WC for the EXACT same reason you boasted for Guiding Hands... Seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
It might have some value if it was vastly shorter duration and recharge - say 5 seconds up for 30s recharge, allowing a hammer warrior to knocklock me whenever he feels like it
No, in essence I said warrior cunning would be good if it was exactly like guiding hands - really low number of attacks unblockable, but faster recharge. One spike every 60 seconds isn't really worthwhile.
Pyro maniac
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
20 Feb 2008 at 21:00 - 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
K, one more to add to the team up.
Well:
1.) We are talking about warrior, not dervish.
2.) He said one thing about the skill GH and then said the exact opposite about WC. That's what the quote was. Read before you flame.
3.) Blind, blanket statements FTL. Be specific, and come up with your own words. Quit trying to look cool in front of the other flamers.
guiding hands was dervish =)
the two skills are used in a different situation. Where it isn't that great for a warrior, it is nice for the dervish.
And my own words, why?: just read the last three pages, they are right.
Flem
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2005
NA
N/Me
20 Feb 2008 at 21:03 - 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
No, in essence I said warrior cunning would be good if it was exactly like guiding hands - really low number of attacks unblockable, but faster recharge. One spike every 60 seconds isn't really worthwhile.
K, that makes more sense. The way you worded it was saying it differently.
The main dif. I notice is, with WC and and IAS, you can hit and do a more sustained series of hits to do more actual damage. With GH, having an IAS almost defeats the purpose.
Flem
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2005
NA
N/Me
20 Feb 2008 at 21:06 - 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyro maniac
guiding hands was dervish =)
the two skills are used in a different situation. Where it isn't that great for a warrior, it is nice for the dervish.
And my own words, why?: just read the last three pages, they are right.
Yes, I realize GH is a derv. skill. What are you saying? We are talking about warrior builds.
So, you don't even know why to use your own words and your examples are posts that others have typed.... Why are you even posting?
Dr Strangelove
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Wasting away again in Margaritaville
[HOTR]
20 Feb 2008 at 21:14 - 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
K, that makes more sense. The way you worded it was saying it differently.
The main dif. I notice is, with WC and and IAS, you can hit and do a more sustained series of hits to do more actual damage. With GH, having an IAS almost defeats the purpose.
The only real purpose of both of them is for spiking. Spikes really don't take more than 3-4 hits anyway, so you don't care that much. An IAS just serves to further compress the damage in this case.
If you really want an unstoppable warrior effect, the best option is usually to stick [skill]guided weapon[/skill] on a midliner, or have a curses necro throw around defile defenses.
Spiking and pressure require different skillsets.
EDIT: Bah, bbcode hates me today
Flem
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2005
NA
N/Me
20 Feb 2008 at 21:24 - 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
The only real purpose of both of them is for spiking. Spikes really don't take more than 3-4 hits anyway, so you don't care that much. An IAS just serves to further compress the damage in this case.
If you really want an unstoppable warrior effect, the best option is usually to stick [skill]guided weapon[/skill] on a midliner, or have a curses necro throw around
You run guided weapon on a rit who powers it with offering of spirit or GoLE, so the energy cost isn't a big deal. Your midline is there for a reason .
Eh, shatter enchant and defile defenses are really for different things. Defile lets you put out a decent amount of pressure even when you're getting blocked, shatter is better when you're prepping a target for a spike.
Crom The Pale
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Nov 2006
Ageis Ascending
W/
21 Feb 2008 at 02:00 - 96
A mesmer with Rigomortis and some cover hexes is a Warriors best friend
Arkantos
The Greatest
Join Date: Feb 2006
W/
21 Feb 2008 at 02:42 - 97
Seeing as this thread has gone very off topic, I'm going to close it. If you guys want to talk about serious PvP, bring it to gladiator's arena. Don't go if you're bad though, you'll just get laughed at and you'll make moko/divine's job harder.
.
.
