Don't want to from with a secondary profession
Yichi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Lots of people tank wrong. Tank is effective when used properly.
I said tanking used to be effective. The key words in there being "USED TO". Face it, in all reality it isn't as effective as pure damage with a little party support is, especially with paragons being introduced. 1 paragon can provide enough party support as well as almost the same DPS but ranged as the warrior, that there is no need for a tanking warrior anymore. Builds have evolved, times have evolved, players have evolved...
Well most of us...
Well most of us...
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yichi
I said tanking used to be effective. The key words in there being "USED TO". Face it, in all reality it isn't as effective as pure damage with a little party support is, especially with paragons being introduced. 1 paragon can provide enough party support as well as almost the same DPS but ranged as the warrior, that there is no need for a tanking warrior anymore. Builds have evolved, times have evolved, players have evolved...
Well most of us... Never said it wasn't good.
Well most of us... Never said it wasn't good.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yichi
Well most of us...
And for those of us who don't C-space things with an imbagon, there's Ursan. Tanking is long past it.
Yichi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Never said it wasn't good.
no but you're trying to come up with underdeveloped reasons as to why tanking is as effective as it used to be, which it clearly isn't.
Asha Rai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
That makes him a smart frontliner. The definition of 'tank' around here is a guy who wastes his bar on defensive trash and can't hurt anything.
That is a very narrow minded, and I think unhelpful definition of tank. Although I note that you qualify your statement by saying that this is the tanking definition 'around here'. With that in mind, I can agree with all the anti tank sentiment I see posted 'around here'.
To tank (the verb as compared to the noun) implies taking and surviving aggro. And I think a more useful definition of a tank (noun) is "one who tanks (verb)". Loading up on 'defensive trash' that slows you down and buffs your hp so mobs run right past you makes you pretty useless, since you aren't tanking, but standing there looking stupid.
A final two points: A skill bar in itself does not define a tank, but only aides in the business of tanking. Secondly, tanking is not mutually exclusive to dealing damage.
To tank (the verb as compared to the noun) implies taking and surviving aggro. And I think a more useful definition of a tank (noun) is "one who tanks (verb)". Loading up on 'defensive trash' that slows you down and buffs your hp so mobs run right past you makes you pretty useless, since you aren't tanking, but standing there looking stupid.
A final two points: A skill bar in itself does not define a tank, but only aides in the business of tanking. Secondly, tanking is not mutually exclusive to dealing damage.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asha Rai
However, if you ask for a tank in-game, you'll basically end up with a bar packed with lame and unnecessary defenses - think Ob Flesh tanks or, worse, Glad's Defense/Mending guys, which are quite obviously bad builds that slow things down; as opposed to a frontliner killing shit and covered by a few spot prots - which is why we split 'tanks' from Warriors hitting things with weapons.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yichi
lol, what is underdeveloped about "it works equally as effective as the alternative according to the situation" ?? I don't know how better to explain that too you.
Quote: Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
Narrow-minded, yes - but it helps differentiate the 'tank' types from the warriors with decent bars. Basically, any warrior can run in and take initial aggro (covered by a few prots, if needed) - it's the smart thing to do, we've got the toughest armour and can take that initial hit before the passive defenses are up. Essentially, warriors are tanks just by wearing their armour, so it goes without saying.
However, if you ask for a tank in-game, you'll basically end up with a bar packed with lame and unnecessary defenses - think Ob Flesh tanks or, worse, Glad's Defense/Mending guys, which are quite obviously bad builds that slow things down; as opposed to a frontliner killing shit and covered by a few spot prots - which is why we split 'tanks' from Warriors hitting things with weapons. That's your opinion and, imo, not accurate. Having a tanking format for PvE does not slow things down.
However, if you ask for a tank in-game, you'll basically end up with a bar packed with lame and unnecessary defenses - think Ob Flesh tanks or, worse, Glad's Defense/Mending guys, which are quite obviously bad builds that slow things down; as opposed to a frontliner killing shit and covered by a few spot prots - which is why we split 'tanks' from Warriors hitting things with weapons. That's your opinion and, imo, not accurate. Having a tanking format for PvE does not slow things down.
Bobby2
Now you're saying it doesn't take more time if you stand there trying only to stay alive as opposed to, you know, actually trying to beat stuff? You're about covered in gasoline, aren't you?
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Now you're saying it doesn't take more time if you stand there trying only to stay alive as opposed to, you know, actually trying to beat stuff? You're about covered in gasoline, aren't you?
lol, I'm not saying a solo tank...
A tank "setup" refers to 1 person taking all the damage and keeping the atten. of the enemies, while the 7 other professions fully utilize their roles (i.e. SS, Nuker, Healer, etc...)
A tank "setup" refers to 1 person taking all the damage and keeping the atten. of the enemies, while the 7 other professions fully utilize their roles (i.e. SS, Nuker, Healer, etc...)
Crom The Pale
The biggest problem with Tanking today is that the AI changes make if much less efficient than it used to be.
When you could hold agro and drop Echo Meteor Shower + Arcane Echo Firestrom on a mob and they would just stand under it and die Tanking was very fast and effective. Now however mobs scatter and they pick targets better than just the guy that hit me first so it becomes a much more tedius method of play.
When you could hold agro and drop Echo Meteor Shower + Arcane Echo Firestrom on a mob and they would just stand under it and die Tanking was very fast and effective. Now however mobs scatter and they pick targets better than just the guy that hit me first so it becomes a much more tedius method of play.
- Tain -
No, the biggest problem with tanking is the same as it's always been - it's hugely inefficient.
You can gather aggro and group enemies without dedicating 1 characters bar to sitting there picking his nose. Saying that it lets the other 7 professions fully utilize their roles is silly - why not let 8 professions run at max efficiency and drop your nose-picker?
You can gather aggro and group enemies without dedicating 1 characters bar to sitting there picking his nose. Saying that it lets the other 7 professions fully utilize their roles is silly - why not let 8 professions run at max efficiency and drop your nose-picker?
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
The biggest problem with Tanking today is that the AI changes make if much less efficient than it used to be.
When you could hold agro and drop Echo Meteor Shower + Arcane Echo Firestrom on a mob and they would just stand under it and die Tanking was very fast and effective. Now however mobs scatter and they pick targets better than just the guy that hit me first so it becomes a much more tedius method of play. Yes, the mob scattering made it to where tanking does not dominate the playing field like it used to. I think that nerf is what made the other options viable. I don't feel, however, that tanking can not be done as effective as the other in certain situations. To combat the nerf, all you need is an AOE snare and all the enemies jump back on to the tank, that's IF they even survive the first spike, which hardly ever happens in standard game play. With so much damage concentrated in one area, it makes the play quite fast.
The down side to playing without a tank is the same thing, but it a different way. When there is no set tank, the enemies will scatter and pick random enemies. This makes mutiple kills at once, much harder. You have to target each enemy individually.
Both options have downsides and counters, as well as the rest of GW.
When you could hold agro and drop Echo Meteor Shower + Arcane Echo Firestrom on a mob and they would just stand under it and die Tanking was very fast and effective. Now however mobs scatter and they pick targets better than just the guy that hit me first so it becomes a much more tedius method of play. Yes, the mob scattering made it to where tanking does not dominate the playing field like it used to. I think that nerf is what made the other options viable. I don't feel, however, that tanking can not be done as effective as the other in certain situations. To combat the nerf, all you need is an AOE snare and all the enemies jump back on to the tank, that's IF they even survive the first spike, which hardly ever happens in standard game play. With so much damage concentrated in one area, it makes the play quite fast.
The down side to playing without a tank is the same thing, but it a different way. When there is no set tank, the enemies will scatter and pick random enemies. This makes mutiple kills at once, much harder. You have to target each enemy individually.
Both options have downsides and counters, as well as the rest of GW.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
No, the biggest problem with tanking is the same as it's always been - it's hugely inefficient.
You can gather aggro and group enemies without dedicating 1 characters bar to sitting there picking his nose. Saying that it lets the other 7 professions fully utilize their roles is silly - why not let 8 professions run at max efficiency and drop your nose-picker? That's not a proper tanking format at all.
1.) Have 1 character with def. skills is not a waste, because he will be taking all the dmg... 1+1=2
2.) Hitting the buttons 1-8 for def. skills or offensive skills is the exact same, he doesn't go out there and not use any skills...
3.) All 8 professions are running at max efficiency. 1 person pisses off the foes, 7 other people can have there build completely full of skills that will make the job go by faster.
You can gather aggro and group enemies without dedicating 1 characters bar to sitting there picking his nose. Saying that it lets the other 7 professions fully utilize their roles is silly - why not let 8 professions run at max efficiency and drop your nose-picker? That's not a proper tanking format at all.
1.) Have 1 character with def. skills is not a waste, because he will be taking all the dmg... 1+1=2
2.) Hitting the buttons 1-8 for def. skills or offensive skills is the exact same, he doesn't go out there and not use any skills...
3.) All 8 professions are running at max efficiency. 1 person pisses off the foes, 7 other people can have there build completely full of skills that will make the job go by faster.
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
That's now a proper tanking format at all.
1.) Have 1 character with def. skills is not a waste, because he will be taking all the dmg... 1+1=2
2.) Hitting the buttons 1-8 for def. skills or offensive skills is the exact same, he doesn't go out there and not use any skills...
3.) All 8 professions are running at max efficiency. 1 person pisses off the foes, 7 other people can have there build completely full of skills that will make the job go by faster. The difference there is that the player with 8 defensive skills is doing nothing that couldn't be accomplished with a half-decent monk (wtb prots?) supporting someone who is, you know, doing something - killing mebbe? Even without SY! spam you don't need a tank, you just need to not fail.
1.) Have 1 character with def. skills is not a waste, because he will be taking all the dmg... 1+1=2
2.) Hitting the buttons 1-8 for def. skills or offensive skills is the exact same, he doesn't go out there and not use any skills...
3.) All 8 professions are running at max efficiency. 1 person pisses off the foes, 7 other people can have there build completely full of skills that will make the job go by faster. The difference there is that the player with 8 defensive skills is doing nothing that couldn't be accomplished with a half-decent monk (wtb prots?) supporting someone who is, you know, doing something - killing mebbe? Even without SY! spam you don't need a tank, you just need to not fail.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
The difference there is that the player with 8 defensive skills is doing nothing that couldn't be accomplished with a half-decent monk (wtb prots?) supporting someone who is, you know, doing something - killing mebbe? Even without SY! spam you don't need a tank, you just need to not fail.
Well, if your in an area of a game where no def. skills are needed and a protection monk can handle all of the incoming damage given to the tank, then there ya go. A tank and he has offensive skills.
But doesn't that leave another member of the team focusing on keeping the team alive via protection when that's the same principle as a tank?
But doesn't that leave another member of the team focusing on keeping the team alive via protection when that's the same principle as a tank?
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Flem
But doesn't that leave another member of the team focusing on keeping the team alive via protection when that's the same principle as a tank?
Monks support the party, not just themselves.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
It's called a warrior.
Monks support the party, not just themselves. Not only warriors can be tanks. Tanks support the whole party as well. Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by flem
Tanks support the whole party as well.
Nope, they just give bad Monks a reason to gloat, and bad teams to fool-proofly pass stuff.
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Flem
But doesn't that leave another member of the team focusing on keeping the team alive via protection when that's the same principle as a tank?
Are you saying that you don't bring monks when you have a "tank"? Having prot and having a tank are definitely not the same principle. Monks support the party, and provide a critical element. No one is denying that your tanking works as a play style, but WHY the hell would you want to deal less damage and slow yourself down.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Nope, they just give bad Monks a reason to gloat, and bad teams to fool-proofly pass stuff. |
Tanks support the whole party but helping them stay safe.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by - Tain -
First of all, I never said having no defensive skills - as was mentioned earlier WY, Shields Up, and para shouts are very effective to mitigate damage. Yes, a good monk can keep anyone upright - PS and SoA alone will make damage = 0 if they're taking heavy fire. And I'm not necessarily saying to go full prot; hybrid monks are infinitely more efficient.
Are you saying that you don't bring monks when you have a "tank"? Having prot and having a tank are definitely not the same principle. Monks support the party, and provide a critical element. No one is denying that your tanking works as a play style, but WHY the hell would you want to deal less damage and slow yourself down. I personally like hybrid as well. I'm not saying that. I was asking a question in a way to prove a point. In the end, going with a tanking party does not deal less damage. The tank may not be doing it, but the rest of the party is. Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Tanks support the whole party but helping them stay safe.
No they don't, they support themselves, if I wanted to support the whole party I would play a Paragon, and still deal damage.
Oh yeah, I thought it was a Monk's job to keep the party safe?
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
In the end, going with a tanking party does not deal less damage. The tank may not be doing it, but the rest of the party is.
You're denying yourself 1 warrior's DPS, which happens to be among the top single-target DPS in the game. That is reducing your party's damage.
Div
I don't even know what to say. Some people are just stubbornly stupid with their arguments and won't realize/admit they're wrong. I've given up dealing with those sorts of people. This horrible argument of "HAI GAIZ I LIKE TO DO DAMGE WITH ONLY 7 PEOPLE INSTEAD OF 8 BECUZ ITS KEWL" can keep going for another 10 pages if you guys haven't given up arguing with stubborn players. Pretty hilarious when hypocrites talk about the refusal to change and adapt, then continue to argue in favor of tanking, which is an age-old method that has become completely obsolete after the introduction of imbagons. I'll leave you with Ensign's quote, and if you don't know what it is, go look it up :P
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Oh yeah, I thought it was a Monk's job to keep the party safe? |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by - Tain -
You're denying yourself 1 warrior's DPS, which happens to be among the top single-target DPS in the game. That is reducing your party's damage.
Well, really the main dif. between tank vs. imbagon is single target DPS vs. AoE. Certain parts of the game benefit from each of those. Very situational.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.
Quoted For Truth.
*/Point /Laugh at Flem.*
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
I don't even know what to say. Some people are just stubbornly stupid with their arguments and won't realize/admit they're wrong. I've given up dealing with those sorts of people. This horrible argument can keep going for another 10 pages if you guys haven't given up arguing with stubborn players. I'll leave you with Ensign's quote, and if you don't know what it is, go look it up :P
How am I stubborn?
I'm saying try all the options, be versitle, and be flexible. You guys are advocating being rigid, stale, and stagnant by relying on just one style of play always, no matter what you face. Any outsider in this debate would say the opposite.
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
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Too perfect NOT to quote it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Flem Well, really the main dif. between tank vs. imbagon is single target DPS vs. AoE. Certain parts of the game benefit from each of those. Very situational.
Quote:
If my "one style of play" is not bringing a tank, then yes. But I'd say that leaves a lot more room for versatility compared to reducing your party number to 7.|
Originally Posted by - Tain -
You can gather aggro and group enemies without dedicating 1 characters bar to sitting there picking his nose.
^ You don't need to sacrifice AoE damage because you're not running a nose-picker.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Aggro break = useless tank. Well, even more useless than they already are.
Quoted For Truth. */Point /Laugh at Flem.* Every play style has down falls. I would not be surpised if tyla was 12, I'm being completely honest.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
"Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience."
Too perfect NOT to quote it. ^ You don't need to sacrifice AoE damage because you're not running a nose-picker. AoE does not work at all if the enemies are all on dif. targets.
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
I'm saying try all the options, be versitle, and be flexible. You guys are advocating being rigid, stale, and stagnant by relying on just one style of play always, no matter what you face. Any outsider in this debate would say the opposite. |
Quote:
AoE does not work at all if the enemies are all on dif. targets.
Re-read what I said again.
You -->can<-- gather aggro and group enemies without dedicating 1 characters bar to sitting there picking his nose.
You -->can<-- gather aggro and group enemies without dedicating 1 characters bar to sitting there picking his nose.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Every play style has down falls.
I would not be surpised if tyla was 12, I'm being completely honest. I'm 14, what's your point?
Age has nothing to do with maturity, but the person behind the computer screen, that personality makes maturity in people.
Besides - the playstyle of grabbing a Shock Axe and actually doing something useful is better than being a useless slot which can be filled up instantly by something FAR better.
I would not be surpised if tyla was 12, I'm being completely honest. I'm 14, what's your point?
Age has nothing to do with maturity, but the person behind the computer screen, that personality makes maturity in people.
Besides - the playstyle of grabbing a Shock Axe and actually doing something useful is better than being a useless slot which can be filled up instantly by something FAR better.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
I don't even know what to say. Some people are just stubbornly stupid with their arguments and won't realize/admit they're wrong. I've given up dealing with those sorts of people. This horrible argument of "HAI GAIZ I LIKE TO DO DAMGE WITH ONLY 7 PEOPLE INSTEAD OF 8 BECUZ ITS KEWL" can keep going for another 10 pages if you guys haven't given up arguing with stubborn players. Pretty hilarious when hypocrites talk about the refusal to change and adapt, then continue to argue in favor of tanking, which is an age-old method that has become completely obsolete after the introduction of imbagons. I'll leave you with Ensign's quote, and if you don't know what it is, go look it up :P
BTW.
Preferring something, and understanding the equality of something given certain circumstances are two dif. things.
Are you saying that you can run a build with no def skills? That's slots used.
The skill slot usage on keeping the team alive is about the same.
Preferring something, and understanding the equality of something given certain circumstances are two dif. things.
Are you saying that you can run a build with no def skills? That's slots used.
The skill slot usage on keeping the team alive is about the same.
- Tain -
Skill slots for defense = good.
Full bar for defense = bad.
^ Especially when your full bar is protecting yourself (1 character) rather than the party (win).
Full bar for defense = bad.
^ Especially when your full bar is protecting yourself (1 character) rather than the party (win).
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
Re-read what I said again.
You -->can<-- gather aggro and group enemies without dedicating 1 characters bar to sitting there picking his nose. Using the same line over and over does not make your point and more valid.
Having all enemies focus on one target is tanking.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Having all enemies focus on one target is tanking.
You're funny.
Devoting an entire skillbar = Tanking, not someone taking agro and actually killing stuff.
Devoting an entire skillbar = Tanking, not someone taking agro and actually killing stuff.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Every play style has down falls.
I would not be surpised if tyla was 12, I'm being completely honest. Attacking a person's arguments is one thing. Attacking a person's age/sex/race/etc. is another. More crap like this and this thread is getting nuked.
I would not be surpised if tyla was 12, I'm being completely honest. Attacking a person's arguments is one thing. Attacking a person's age/sex/race/etc. is another. More crap like this and this thread is getting nuked.
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
Using the same line over and over does not make your point and more valid.
Having all enemies focus on one target is tanking. Except that my line is valid. Relying on everything attacking one target is a fickle way to control aggro. Using terrain (corners, walls, etc.) gathers and groups enemies for an equal result with superior control.
Having all enemies focus on one target is tanking. Except that my line is valid. Relying on everything attacking one target is a fickle way to control aggro. Using terrain (corners, walls, etc.) gathers and groups enemies for an equal result with superior control.
Flem
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
Full bar for defense = bad.
^ Especially when your full bar is protecting yourself (1 character) rather than the party (win).
I never said a tank had to have all def skills. As long as all the enemies are focusing on one target, no one else is getting the blows, all AoE is focused on all/most of the enemies at once, and it's fast.... then that's tanking.
Quote:
I'm 14, what's your point?
Age has nothing to do with maturity, but the person behind the computer screen, that personality makes maturity in people.
Besides - the playstyle of grabbing a Shock Axe and actually doing something useful is better than being a useless slot which can be filled up instantly by something FAR better.
Maturity can exist at all levels, but just like all of you guys' argument with experience, age plays an important role. I can tell your young by you blatant cheap shots and lack of flexibility that only comes with age.
Age has nothing to do with maturity, but the person behind the computer screen, that personality makes maturity in people.
Besides - the playstyle of grabbing a Shock Axe and actually doing something useful is better than being a useless slot which can be filled up instantly by something FAR better.
Maturity can exist at all levels, but just like all of you guys' argument with experience, age plays an important role. I can tell your young by you blatant cheap shots and lack of flexibility that only comes with age.
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
How is "picking your nose" valid at all past middle school?
"Standing there picking your nose" is an expression used to convey doing nothing useful. I sure hope you aren't lumping me in with your immaturity comments.
Also, pointing to that rather than commenting on my actual argument leads me to believe you've run out of excuses but just don't want to quit.
Also, pointing to that rather than commenting on my actual argument leads me to believe you've run out of excuses but just don't want to quit.
Earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flem
If everybody disagrees with you, don't you think you may be wrong after all?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tyla salanari
I'm 14, what's your point?
I always thought you were 18. I'm shocked
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