Hi,
I was happy to see this brilliant piece of news from Blizzard for our WoW friends:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/.../antigold.html
Purchased gold comes at every player's expense
Similarly, EQ2 moves to the safer Verified by Visa scheme (love it):
http://eq2players.station.sony.com/n...local e=en_US
Isn't it time that all the MMO companies join in the right against RMT (Real-Money Trade)? Not only it'd make their job a little bit easier (customers would be much more aware, they'd share information on RMT companies) but it'd ensure the security (in the largest sense) of their business. I don't think that there are numbers about RMT but it's constantly growing, finding new customers, while loosing accounts after bans. There's no way it's going to stop by tackling the problem locally within each MMO.
Do you think a "No RMT in my MMO" initiative accross the whole range of MMO companies would be: 1) possible?; 2) profitable to MMO companies; 3) and customers?
I hope someone from Anet or even NC Soft joins in this thread!
Time for MMO companies to collaborate against RMT/gold-selling (for Anet!)
Fril Estelin
N8mare
As long as there are people wanting to buy the game gold for real money (because they can afford that, not wanting to spend several hours/days on farming) - there will be poeple offering this kind of service. You can do nothing about that. It's called ECONOMY (demand-supply)
X Ice Man X
As long as there is people who will buy the gold then there is going to be people there to sell the gold.
It's not really a solvable problem, same with drugs in the real world. No matter what the punishment is, somebody somewhere will think its worth the risk.
It's not really a solvable problem, same with drugs in the real world. No matter what the punishment is, somebody somewhere will think its worth the risk.
Longasc
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Originally Posted by X Ice Man X
As long as there is people who will buy the gold then there is going to be people there to sell the gold.
It's not really a solvable problem, same with drugs in the real world. No matter what the punishment is, somebody somewhere will think its worth the risk. |
I sometimes wonder if legalization would be the solution. Many people would not like it, but I would say better ANet is selling the gold and cashing in than others...
It is not criminal companies selling gold, it is the players buying it. The market would not exist without them.
The problem for Blizzard is also not primarily the "cheating" of gold buyers, but the aggressive marketing spam.
@Fril, regarding Sony/Everquest
SOE (Sony Online Entertainment) has already their "Station", selling gold and items to players. They will not follow Blizzards example. What did you want to say with this verified VISA article???
If there is one good thing about gold sellers, it is that I can always accuse rich people of being their customers...
(Guru is in dire need of a sarcastic smiley)
Tijger
Players are able to eBay their WoW characters for hundreds of dollars so there's a serious market for such things, gold sellers are only a part of the problem and quite frankly, given the fact that you can find bot scripts for WoW anywhere on the Internet and the ease with which bots can be used in WoW they're the last ones that should be making noises like this.
Fril Estelin
I'm not sure I've been clear, or even that people read my OP. I'm not saying that there's a panacea to this plague, because there's not. I'm asking whether the industry as a whole should step up like Blizard did by sending this big message to their community (they don't do this things without careful consideration). The RMT industry exists because: 1) their cost to produce virtual money is very low (due to low wages in Asia); 2) there are wealthy people ready to break the EULA by buying gold; and 3) the overall cost-benefit for them is very positive (i.e., "price of virtual gold - cost of employees - cost or programmers - cost of buying new accounts" is significant).
If there's been an attempt (last year I think) to tax virtual economies, it shouldn't be difficult to outlaw RMT, as a parasitic business. But this means that the whole industry needs to loby for this. Anyway, I digress. The point is to make the "cost of programmers" as high as possible by finding the best technical tricks to increase this cost, for example sharing the techniques that the RMT bots use, or blacklist the url of the RMT website (like it's done for spamming companies and email).
The argument that "it'll always exist" is moot here. It's not because there'll always be crime that there shouldn't be a police. Same for drugs and campaigns against it. Et caetera.
If there's been an attempt (last year I think) to tax virtual economies, it shouldn't be difficult to outlaw RMT, as a parasitic business. But this means that the whole industry needs to loby for this. Anyway, I digress. The point is to make the "cost of programmers" as high as possible by finding the best technical tricks to increase this cost, for example sharing the techniques that the RMT bots use, or blacklist the url of the RMT website (like it's done for spamming companies and email).
The argument that "it'll always exist" is moot here. It's not because there'll always be crime that there shouldn't be a police. Same for drugs and campaigns against it. Et caetera.
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by Longasc
It is not criminal companies selling gold
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| What did you want to say with this verified VISA article??? |
N8mare
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
The point is to make the "cost of programmers" as high as possible by finding the best technical tricks to increase this cost, for example sharing the techniques that the RMT bots use, or blacklist the url of the RMT website.
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Either legalize RMT (taxes, gold available in ingame store) - or loose. It's quite funny to observe the hypocrisy of AN selling ingame products like the skills and insisting on stopping the sale of ingame products like the gold.
bilateralrope
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Originally Posted by Longasc
I sometimes wonder if legalization would be the solution. Many people would not like it, but I would say better ANet is selling the gold and cashing in than others...
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If you can figure out a way to break this cycle while allowing RMT's, then RMT's should become legit since they aren't hurting anyone.
I have seen one such method in Eve Online, which allows people to buy GTCs (a code that gives you an extra time on your subscription subscription). These GTCs can then be traded to other players for the in-game currency allowing people to buy the currency, and for CCP to still profit off people who are unable to pay a monthly subscription. However the more people you have buying currency with this method, the less currency they get per dollar, meaning that the RMT groups can still be profitable.
But something like that can't work with Guild Wars because we don't pay a subscription fee. The only other way I can think of to prevent inflation from RMTs is to give Guild Wars a post scarcity economy* so that inflation means nothing**, so ANET can just ignore the RMT groups because the game economy will make them unprofitable.
*The simplest method to visualise is to have NPC's which will produce unlimited amounts of any in-game item for free.
**If ANET just implemented the post scarcity part without changing the rate gold drops I'd expect huge inflation because gold has become meaningless.
If you don't like the idea of a post scarcity economy, how do you propose to prevent RMT farmers causing inflation ?
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by N8mare
You don't get it. It gives you absolutely nothing - even if you manage somehow to make the "costs" as high as possbile for the RMT sites - there will be always players selling the gold and buying it on ebay or on their personal sites (it takes 1 day to make one ready for RMT).
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RMT shall be fought in MMOs like a criminal offense, both on the buyer and seller side.
N8mare
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
I think it's rather you who didn't understand my point. Re-read the bit about "panacea".
RMT shall be fought in MMOs like a criminal offense, both on the buyer and seller side. |
Longasc
I do not want to follow the drugs/guns example too much, as it would lead away from RMT/gold selling.
Of course you are right, drug sellers are criminals and immoral. As are gold selling companies, they are breaking the EULA and most players consider gold selling immoral. I personally think who buys drugs became the victim of personal flaws. The same applies to gold buyers. They cannot resist.
Interestingly, Asian online game communities do not have this aversion against money selling that westerners have.
I personally want a total separation, you should not buy any ingame item for real money. But take a look at minipets, GOTY weapons and so on. The line gets more and more blurry. Then ANET also sells Skill unlock packs, this is a bit hypocrisy!
Wait for GW2, and see what totally optional stuff will be offered for sale in the store. *cough*
The BMP was only the beginning.
Again, verified VISA stuff - a good thing, but you put it in context of Sony's Station, a company that sells ingame gold and items (!).
The idea behind legalizing RMT is that you cannot stop it. Illegal and immoral or not, supply and demand exist. And nobody so far found THE way to stop people from gold selling/buying. Not even draconic measures.
Of course you are right, drug sellers are criminals and immoral. As are gold selling companies, they are breaking the EULA and most players consider gold selling immoral. I personally think who buys drugs became the victim of personal flaws. The same applies to gold buyers. They cannot resist.
Interestingly, Asian online game communities do not have this aversion against money selling that westerners have.
I personally want a total separation, you should not buy any ingame item for real money. But take a look at minipets, GOTY weapons and so on. The line gets more and more blurry. Then ANET also sells Skill unlock packs, this is a bit hypocrisy!
Wait for GW2, and see what totally optional stuff will be offered for sale in the store. *cough*
The BMP was only the beginning.
Again, verified VISA stuff - a good thing, but you put it in context of Sony's Station, a company that sells ingame gold and items (!).
The idea behind legalizing RMT is that you cannot stop it. Illegal and immoral or not, supply and demand exist. And nobody so far found THE way to stop people from gold selling/buying. Not even draconic measures.
A mummified one
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Originally Posted by N8mare
LOL. The game gold is still the same product like the game skills (which you can buy via ingame store). It shall be available for all those who can afford that. The gold doesnt make you a better player in GW, but the skills - surely do. You will never stop RMT, there will be always demand - and supply. It shall be legalized.
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Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by N8mare
It shall be legalized.
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Please stop the non-sense. Oh well, this thread has gone completely off-track anyway, so do what you like.
Oh and about the legalisation of RMT (mainly Longasc's comments): it would inevitably lead to unfairness and people quitting MMOs, GW in particular, because rich people would have a huge headstart (yes, it does not mean being better at the game of course, but well you don't have to spend 500h to unlock all skills). I don't the BMP as the same beast, because it's such a small thing, on the other hand there are repercussions on the economy (and it's not all clear), but we're moving away from RMT here because the BMP is perfectly legal.
Longasc
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Originally Posted by bilateralrope
If you don't like the idea of a post scarcity economy, how do you propose to prevent RMT farmers causing inflation ?
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The problem with RMTs is that the farmers put more gold into the economy. This leads to inflation, leading to higher prices, leading to more people buying gold, leading to more farmers, leading to more inflation. This screws over the players that can't afford to buy gold in the first place. If you can figure out a way to break this cycle while allowing RMT's, then RMT's should become legit since they aren't hurting anyone. |
And you are right, there is a risk of inflation.
But it works in Everquest, without having destroyed the economy. The influence cannot really be measured, but it has not shown to be significant, the market did not react at all. One could say because gold selling was already there before, legal or not.
My suggestions:
1.) Bind on Pickup (to account, stolen from WoW)
Rare items should not be able to be traded. They would have to be won by yourself. It would also be some badge of honor, it shows you were there, in a victorious group. Plus you were lucky.
2.) Token system (again, stolen from WoW - and I do not like that game... funny)
As luck of the draw is annoying at times, people can get tokens from chests or major bosses that allow them to exchange a certain amount of them for special items. Tokens could also not be traded.
3.) no more money-sink/consumption titles
Drunkard, Party Animal or Sweet Tooth should not count to anything or be removed completely. They are primitive money grind, and are basically gold buyer or hardcore farmer titles.
My first ideas. More might come later. Enough to start a discussion, I think.
Fril Estelin
Hey guys ... I proposed to talk about the MMO industry joining forces to combat RMT, not another thread on fighting RMT in GW ... (but some contributions were good, even if away from the topic 
)
)
A mummified one
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
There will always be people killing each other, so it should be legalised? Same for drugs? Stealing?
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| Oh well, this thread has gone completely off-track anyway, so do what you like. |
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| Oh and about the legalisation of RMT it would inevitably lead to unfairness and people quitting MMOs, GW in particular, because rich people would have a huge headstart (yes, it does not mean being better at the game of course, but well you don't have to spend 500h to unlock all skills). |
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
Hey guys ... I proposed to talk about the MMO industry joining forces to combat RMT, not another thread on fighting RMT in GW ... (but some contributions were good, even if away from the topic
) |
zwei2stein
If you want to argue about drugs in this context, two major drugs are being sold quite openly: Tobaco and Alcohol.
Tobaco is drug of 'major' grade: Seriously addictive and making quite huge changes on personality of user. 'Hit' is very cheap so it does not ruin addicts life, its easy (and safe) to get it, and risk of overdosage is nonexistent. It also produces little criminal activity which is minor one (someone pocketing pack of smokes in quickstop).
They are legal because western civilization culture background enables that and because they are deeply rooted in our society (plus they are businesses with lobby.). Should someone impartial look at this matter he would be quite confused why there are some addictive substances excepted from rules. And why are there laws against some addictive stuff while huge percentage of population uses other addictive stuff anyway.
So, gold selling/buying acceptance is just matter of cultural background.
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Anyway, you could allow goldselling oficially: With penalty for goldbuyers (i.e: Sure, you buy 100k gold, but your droprate would suffer to compensate gold you just put to economy.)
Think about it frontloading effort: you pay reall money to get that 100k much sooner than you would get it normally, but it really wont be new gold entering game since you would get 100k less in drops than you should have gotten over next weeks/months of gameplay.
One could buy 1mil, but probably wont have nonwhite drop for year.
Case of gold entering economy solved, as well as case of bypassing effort.
Such "goverment regulation" of gold buying would make you think twice.
/yes, i am aware of fact that one person could have that gold bought on trowaway acc, i am sure one could deal with it by watching for signs of muling that amount of gold away./
Tobaco is drug of 'major' grade: Seriously addictive and making quite huge changes on personality of user. 'Hit' is very cheap so it does not ruin addicts life, its easy (and safe) to get it, and risk of overdosage is nonexistent. It also produces little criminal activity which is minor one (someone pocketing pack of smokes in quickstop).
They are legal because western civilization culture background enables that and because they are deeply rooted in our society (plus they are businesses with lobby.). Should someone impartial look at this matter he would be quite confused why there are some addictive substances excepted from rules. And why are there laws against some addictive stuff while huge percentage of population uses other addictive stuff anyway.
So, gold selling/buying acceptance is just matter of cultural background.
---
Anyway, you could allow goldselling oficially: With penalty for goldbuyers (i.e: Sure, you buy 100k gold, but your droprate would suffer to compensate gold you just put to economy.)
Think about it frontloading effort: you pay reall money to get that 100k much sooner than you would get it normally, but it really wont be new gold entering game since you would get 100k less in drops than you should have gotten over next weeks/months of gameplay.
One could buy 1mil, but probably wont have nonwhite drop for year.
Case of gold entering economy solved, as well as case of bypassing effort.
Such "goverment regulation" of gold buying would make you think twice.
/yes, i am aware of fact that one person could have that gold bought on trowaway acc, i am sure one could deal with it by watching for signs of muling that amount of gold away./
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
If you want to argue about drugs in this context, two major drugs are being sold quite openly: Tobaco and Alcohol.
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Should someone impartial look at this matter he would be quite confused why there are some addictive substances excepted from rules. And why are there laws against some addictive stuff while huge percentage of population uses other addictive stuff anyway. So, gold selling/buying acceptance is just matter of cultural background. |
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Such "goverment regulation" of gold buying would make you think twice. /yes, i am aware of fact that one person could have that gold bought on trowaway acc, i am sure one could deal with it by watching for signs of muling that amount of gold away./ |
enter_the_zone
Actually, I've thought for a long time that RMT should be brought in house, to the in-game store. If every item in the game and gold was available at the ingame store, it would kill the goldseller's dead and generate extra revenue for Anet.
"Oh, but that's unfair to those who don't have money". Well, that's true. And your point is? The whole damn world is unfair to the poor. Besides, most poor people don't play videogames, they tend to be the preserve of mid and upper income people. The money they'd loose by having less customers would be made up many times over by "stupid" rich people spending money on virtual items. The really poor also have the additional time to farm items manually, since having no job or going to school leaves you with much more free time than those who work.
On the other hand, I can earn £30 in an hour, no problem. I can only farm 3-4 ectos in the same time. Assuming I could be working when I am playing, I'd be willing to pay £10 for 5 ectos, since it makes economic sense for me to do so. In fact, Anet could even help the RL poor by instituting the ability to sell items to the traders or via trade to "stupid" rich people like me for RL cash or IG gold which can be sold back to Anet. This would also make the system RL economically fair and Anet could be skimming 5% of all trades in commission.
It won't happen in GW but it's a system/idea which could be of benefit to the MMO companies at some point.
Buying from goldsellers is stupid, as it harms the game economy and worse, gives money to people who don't deserve it (ie thieving goldsellers) instead of Anet (who could use the cash to improve many of the things we complain about)
"Oh, but that's unfair to those who don't have money". Well, that's true. And your point is? The whole damn world is unfair to the poor. Besides, most poor people don't play videogames, they tend to be the preserve of mid and upper income people. The money they'd loose by having less customers would be made up many times over by "stupid" rich people spending money on virtual items. The really poor also have the additional time to farm items manually, since having no job or going to school leaves you with much more free time than those who work.
On the other hand, I can earn £30 in an hour, no problem. I can only farm 3-4 ectos in the same time. Assuming I could be working when I am playing, I'd be willing to pay £10 for 5 ectos, since it makes economic sense for me to do so. In fact, Anet could even help the RL poor by instituting the ability to sell items to the traders or via trade to "stupid" rich people like me for RL cash or IG gold which can be sold back to Anet. This would also make the system RL economically fair and Anet could be skimming 5% of all trades in commission.
It won't happen in GW but it's a system/idea which could be of benefit to the MMO companies at some point.
Buying from goldsellers is stupid, as it harms the game economy and worse, gives money to people who don't deserve it (ie thieving goldsellers) instead of Anet (who could use the cash to improve many of the things we complain about)
MisterB
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Originally Posted by X Ice Man X
As long as there is people who will buy the gold then there is going to be people there to sell the gold.
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Basically, the players are the problem. If no one bought gold, there would be no gold sellers, nor bots to fund them. If there was no demand, there would be no benefit for these people to sell the gold for real currency.
A mummified one
To all of you:
Yes, RMT is officially approved by Anet.
You can buy minipets perfectly legal using your credit card/cash (you can find them in different magazines across the world).
And what can you do with minipets in game? Sell them to others - so you receive the ingame gold.
In that way - you pay real life money for getting ingame money. I call it RMT, and you ?
Yes, RMT is officially approved by Anet.
You can buy minipets perfectly legal using your credit card/cash (you can find them in different magazines across the world).
And what can you do with minipets in game? Sell them to others - so you receive the ingame gold.
In that way - you pay real life money for getting ingame money. I call it RMT, and you ?
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
An interestng take on the topic, but I don't think it would help really, as people would buy more and use the virtual money to compensate for low drop rates. It would make MMOs money sinks, but with real money (like mobile phone services are). I've read this very long article on the biggest Chinese MMO where the game is actually designed with layers which are only accessible through money spending (you become king by paying lots of money). I think this would remove the fun factor from MMOs as it would create tensions between players. I'm in favor of pushing forward Anet's take on a zero-tolerance policy (of course Anet can't impement it in their business model).
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Also, anet can implement (worthwhile) rewards inaccessible for gold buyers: BMP weapons kinda implement it: they require player to play thought content and reward is untradeable.
WoW modeled its highest gear tiers similarly: Bind on pickup/ Bind on acquire. Those things are definitely valuable, but are not part of market, thus immune to being ebayed.
Once all the "top" items are removed from market urge to ebay might be much lesser.
hallomik
This is from Blizzard's webpage that Fril linked.
Fril's analogy to the drug trade is pretty good. That is, many of the "users" view it as an essentially victimless crime. They think they are only hurting themselves (if that), but in reality they are supporting an industry that causes much harm to the entire gaming community.
One point not stressed in the Blizzard piece is that these gold selling companies routinely use stolen credit-cards to buy accounts. They bot as much gold as they can before Anet/Blizzard/Sony catches on and finally cancels the account. The credit card companies charge the gaming companies huge fees for the large percentage non-paid, cancelled accounts, which hurts the developers' ability to fund game improvements.
And as to the notion that "nothing can be done," there is some obvious truth to the economic realities, but the larger point to surely false. Look at the campaign against smoking in the US and Europe. Has smoking been eliminated? No. Has it been significantly reduced? Absolutely. Why is that? The main reason is that there is now a social stigma attached to smoking in a way that for a very long time there simply wasn't (this may be greater in the US than in Europe, since the anti-smoking crusade started sooner over here). This change was partially accomplished by villifying the tobacco industry. Whether Blizzard can make players hate gold-sellers as much as the average American now despises cigarette companies remains to be seen.
It seems that Blizzard is starting their own educational campaign to let people know just the sort of harm gold buyers cause by buying in-game gold. It's not a fix that will occur overnight. But just because the change will be gradual and never entirely solve the problem is doesn't mean these sort of initiatives shouldn't be started. I think it's a good start.
N8mare
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Originally Posted by hallomik
[IMG]
Fril's analogy to the drug trade is pretty good. That is, many of the "users" view it as an essentially victimless crime. They think they are only hurting themselves (if that), but in reality they are supporting an industry that causes much harm to the entire gaming community. One point not stressed in the Blizzard piece is that these gold selling companies routinely use stolen credit-cards to buy accounts. They bot as much gold as they can before Anet/Blizzard/Sony catches on and finally cancels the account. The credit card companies charge the gaming companies huge fees for the large percentage non-paid, cancelled accounts, which hurts the developers' ability to fund game improvements. And as to the notion that "nothing can be done," there is some obvious truth to the economic realities, but the larger point to surely false. Look at the campaign against smoking in the US and Europe. Has smoking been eliminated? No. Has it been significantly reduced? Absolutely. Why is that? The main reason is that there is now a social stigma attached to smoking in a way that for a very long time there simply wasn't (this may be greater in the US than in Europe, since the anti-smoking crusade started sooner over here). This change was partially accomplished by villifying the tobacco industry. Whether Blizzard can make players hate gold-sellers as much as the average American now despises cigarette companies remains to be seen. It seems that Blizzard is starting their own educational campaign to let people know just the sort of harm gold buyers cause by buying in-game gold. It's not a fix that will occur overnight. But just because the change will be gradual and never entirely solve the problem is doesn't mean these sort of initiatives shouldn't be started. I think it's a good start. |
Cacheelma
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So it's not bad enough that some MMOs use free to play with micro-payment (item mall) business model, now you're suggesting that GW should SELL IN-GAME CURRENCY?
Seriously?
Some BFBs you are huh?
So it's not bad enough that some MMOs use free to play with micro-payment (item mall) business model, now you're suggesting that GW should SELL IN-GAME CURRENCY?
Seriously?
Some BFBs you are huh?
Tijger
Sorry, but to hail Blizzard as a paragon of virtue in this matter when you can find countless eBay auctions for WoW accounts (lv 70 chars usually) not to mention tons and tons of sites selling WoW gold & items is a bit of a stretch imho, RMT and gold sellers are a much bigger problem for WoW then for any other game.
Putting a up a webpage is cheap, doing something costs money.
An industry wide initiative might indeed be a very good thing but I highly doubt its going to happen.
As for the idea of offering gold in official stores, its a stupid idea that will destroy any gaming economy in existence and will lead to a huge divide between have's and have nots.
Putting a up a webpage is cheap, doing something costs money.
An industry wide initiative might indeed be a very good thing but I highly doubt its going to happen.
As for the idea of offering gold in official stores, its a stupid idea that will destroy any gaming economy in existence and will lead to a huge divide between have's and have nots.
N8mare
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Originally Posted by Cacheelma
...
So it's not bad enough that some MMOs use free to play with micro-payment (item mall) business model, now you're suggesting that GW should SELL IN-GAME CURRENCY? Seriously? Some BFBs you are huh? |
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Originally Posted by Tijger
As for the idea of offering gold in official stores, its a stupid idea that will destroy any gaming economy in existence and will lead to a huge divide between have's and have nots.
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You said "RMT would destroy game economy" - that is in fact ONE BIG FAT LIE.
it's not the game gold offered by so many sites comes from nothing and it flows into game. IT IS COLLECTED in game! Whether by farming gold items and selling them, or ectos, or money dropped by mobs. So it is only the game gold changing the "owner", not some magically created gold outside the game. Learn about economy and inflation, then start to discuss.
Cacheelma
Minipets from game magazines?
Let me ask, are they in unlimited supply, readily available for EVERYBODY (obviously not as I can't find it anywhere in my country), and come with 100% guarantee of getting an amount of in-game money?
Obviously NOT. These so-called minipet promotions are IN NO WAY comparable to selling in-game gold. Stop bringing such thing up and hope that your argument is going to fly; it won't.
Look around you, do you think Anet and other game companies NOT SELLING in-game money for their games are BEING STUPID? There's a reason why they don't do it. Trust me, if this is a good idea for them to "make money", they don't need you to tell them to do it.
Let me ask, are they in unlimited supply, readily available for EVERYBODY (obviously not as I can't find it anywhere in my country), and come with 100% guarantee of getting an amount of in-game money?
Obviously NOT. These so-called minipet promotions are IN NO WAY comparable to selling in-game gold. Stop bringing such thing up and hope that your argument is going to fly; it won't.
Look around you, do you think Anet and other game companies NOT SELLING in-game money for their games are BEING STUPID? There's a reason why they don't do it. Trust me, if this is a good idea for them to "make money", they don't need you to tell them to do it.
N8mare
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Originally Posted by Cacheelma
Minipets from game magazines?
Let me ask, are they in unlimited supply, readily available for EVERYBODY (obviously not as I can't find it anywhere in my country), and come with 100% guarantee of getting an amount of in-game money?they don't need you to tell them to do it. |
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Originally Posted by Cacheelma
Look around you, do you think Anet and other game companies NOT SELLING in-game money for their games are BEING STUPID? There's a reason why they don't do it.
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Cacheelma
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Originally Posted by N8mare
Let me ask: could you buy a minipet in a magazine for $ and sell it in game for game gold? Yes, you could. Oficially. Its called: buying in-game gold for $
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And even if I have such minipet, it's not guaranteed to net me a fix amount of in-game gold; I have to sell it to someone in-game and the price they're willing to pay will be varied.
These problems won't exist with direct in-game currency selling, which is why I said you can't say "since we have this, we should also have that" as you try to.
Brimstonez
In either case, you support one thing, you are killing another thing. I personally don't see anything wrong with selling/buying gold in MMORPG's. Some people work their asses off, and would like to have certain things in-game, but don't have the time to get it, and when they finally do, it's worthless because everyone already has one.
On another note, look at how much 'employment' there has been since the farming/selling of gold has started. That would be one heck of a layoff if it was stopped. Sure some people are skeptical about the 'employment' side of it...seeing it as a joke. But hey, if someone is willing to 'employ' someone else to do the work for them, pay them good money, and make profit out of it, then that's just good business. Money makes the world go around, yes, in games too.
On another note, look at how much 'employment' there has been since the farming/selling of gold has started. That would be one heck of a layoff if it was stopped. Sure some people are skeptical about the 'employment' side of it...seeing it as a joke. But hey, if someone is willing to 'employ' someone else to do the work for them, pay them good money, and make profit out of it, then that's just good business. Money makes the world go around, yes, in games too.
N8mare
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Originally Posted by Cacheelma
I'm quite sure they won't be available forever as they're limited in supply.
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RTSFirebat
My only take on this is maybe people wouldn't buy gold if items didn't cost insane amounts of gold, and farming was so annoying and boring.
Not everyone has 3-4 hours to spare a day farming, many of us have jobs, family and other stuff to deal with.
So there look at this is maybe people wouldn't buy gold if players weren't so damn greedy and sell items for insane amounts of gold + XXX ectos... I'm looking at you Mini Panda Bear.
There always many sides to these sort of things.
I don't support Gold buying, but I can understand why some people do it.
Not everyone has 3-4 hours to spare a day farming, many of us have jobs, family and other stuff to deal with.
So there look at this is maybe people wouldn't buy gold if players weren't so damn greedy and sell items for insane amounts of gold + XXX ectos... I'm looking at you Mini Panda Bear.
There always many sides to these sort of things.
I don't support Gold buying, but I can understand why some people do it.
Cacheelma
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Originally Posted by N8mare
Just like in-game gold, which is not available in every amount every time. There's no difference between spending your $ on minipets and getting gold for them and spending your $ on the gold directly - apart from one thing: minipets are sold with AN's permission. HYPOCRISY.
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You're suggesting that Anet should sell in-game currency because they're doing just that now by offering minipets from magazines (which can be traded for in-game currency with other players).
I'm telling you that, two things (Anet selling gold AND Anet giving minipets) are NOT THE SAME.
For minipets.-
- Not everybody can get it.
- They're in limited supply (one day there won't be none left for you to get).
- You may not be able to sell it to other players at the price you expect. As a result, you might not get as much in-game gold as you hope for when you pay for the magazine.
For in-game gold sold by Anet.-
- Everybody who can access AND use the online store (basically most of us) can buy it.
- It's available as long as Anet wants it to.
- You get EXACTLY what you pay for, no more no less.
Clear enough? Please just admit you're trolling so I don't have to waste my time any further.
N8mare
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Originally Posted by Cacheelma
Clearly you need an explanation (or maybe you're trolling. But I'd rather see the goods in people).
You're suggesting that Anet should sell in-game currency because they're doing just that now by offering minipets from magazines (which can be traded for in-game currency with other players). I'm telling you that, two things (Anet selling gold AND Anet giving minipets) are NOT THE SAME. For minipets.- - Not everybody can get it. - They're in limited supply (one day there won't be none left for you to get). - You may not be able to sell it to other players at the price you expect. As a result, you might not get as much in-game gold as you hope for when you pay for the magazine. For in-game gold sold by Anet.- - Everybody who can access AND use the online store (basically most of us) can buy it. - It's available as long as Anet wants it to. - You get EXACTLY what you pay for, no more no less. Clear enough? Please just admit you're trolling so I don't have to waste my time any further. |
I'm suggesting that Anet should sell in-game currency to stop other sites from doing it, stop all the botting and spamming. And I'm suggesting that thanks to Arena Net you can already buy in-game gold for your cash (minipets case).
Tijger
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Originally Posted by N8mare
Clearly you cannot read
I'm suggesting that Anet should sell in-game currency to stop other sites from doing it, stop all the botting and spamming. And I'm suggesting that thanks to Arena Net you can already buy in-game gold for your cash (minipets case). |
Yes, you can get a minipet as a free gift, you cannot buy a minipet from Anet in any way, shape or form so you're argument is based on nothing.
I just got a new minipet, 2nd birthday of my char, is that also gold selling by Anet in your definition?
enter_the_zone
Actually, I'd envision selling it at very slightly below the current goldseller rates. Believe me, most people who are willing to spend that much money on IG gold are already spending it at the goldsellers, since clearly money > sense. How many players do you know who would pay $80 ish for 500k?
The truth is, Anet is likely to be swapping the revenue generated by these people having to buy new accounts for them buying IG gold from the IG store. The gain in revenue would only really be from honest players and the reality is that it's likely to be relatively small percentage of the IG population who would do this.
If inflation was going to drive everything through the roof in price, it already would have, since all those stacks upon stacks of duped ambraces and ectos are still out there.
Edit : I should add that I think adding this now would probably be a bad idea. This should be included in a game before it is launched, if it is to be included at all.
The truth is, Anet is likely to be swapping the revenue generated by these people having to buy new accounts for them buying IG gold from the IG store. The gain in revenue would only really be from honest players and the reality is that it's likely to be relatively small percentage of the IG population who would do this.
If inflation was going to drive everything through the roof in price, it already would have, since all those stacks upon stacks of duped ambraces and ectos are still out there.
Edit : I should add that I think adding this now would probably be a bad idea. This should be included in a game before it is launched, if it is to be included at all.
enter_the_zone
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Originally Posted by Terra Xin
That doesn't have anywhere near the impact that goldsellers have on the community. A company who owns the game and then decides to sell in-game currency is stupid, and the other companies will always sell them for less, making the situation worse...
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I would assume the ban stick would also be wielded more heavily, since they would have the funds to find and ban everybody involved in a dodgy trade.
Ctb
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| A company who owns the game and then decides to sell in-game currency is stupid, and the other companies will always sell them for less, making the situation worse... |
The problem here is that they're effectively robbers engaging in what is, in a roundabout way, money laundering. There is, however, no in-game police force to stop them. I would like to see some mechanism for trusted users to be "deputized" in-game as a volunteer police squad. They would have the ability to investigate and ban players for engaging in EULA infractions, with the stipulation that they must complete a report that is made public, completely with evidence, to help avoid rampant abuse of the system. I should note that this would be mostly used to stop bot accounts quickly, since the turnaround on a report to support is not very good.
Frankly, I'd also like to see all IP addresses originating from any machine on an open proxy (or misconfigured gateway at an ISP), or from any country east of Luxembourg, blocked from U.S. and European servers completely. Neither of these things is particularly complicated to do.