Mes or Rit?

Twin Blade Warriror

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

I was in a guild by myself with 2 of my other accounts..but im banned now

29 Mar 2008 at 19:16 - 201

uhh it really depends on u dude..if u r goign to play pvp or pve with the char..most likely pve...i would go with rit since i really cant play a mes in pve..but mes > rit in pvp

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

30 Mar 2008 at 03:14 - 202

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

not mesmer.... obviously Interesting how it's only obvious to you.

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

30 Mar 2008 at 03:22 - 203

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Interesting how it's only obvious to you. uhm... do you read? its obvious to every competent poster that rits are better in PvE. end of story...

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

31 Mar 2008 at 09:51 - 204

I didn't know typing and navigating on a forum had that much to do with actually playing the game.

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

31 Mar 2008 at 10:21 - 205

ritualists
saying that mesmers are harder to play, thus make you better is utter bullshit. Pack you move like a dwarf and you've got your interupt.

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

31 Mar 2008 at 20:37 - 206

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I didn't know typing and navigating on a forum had that much to do with actually playing the game. its pretty easy to tell who has the IQ of your average house pet by the sort of posts they tend to make.

and if you dont see any argument the ritualists are better maybe you should try reading the ten pages of this thread.

ritualist > mesmer

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

31 Mar 2008 at 21:33 - 207

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

its pretty easy to tell who has the IQ of your average house pet by the sort of posts they tend to make.

and if you dont see any argument the ritualists are better maybe you should try reading the ten pages of this thread. 1. Yes. The people who seem to not be very good or new the game don't care for mesmers.

2. I did.

Captain Miken

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2008

31 Mar 2008 at 21:36 - 208

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

The Mesmer would be more complicated and challenging - essentially, you'll be doing a hell of a lot less for your team as a Mes than as a Rit, so your party will be weaker overall.
at the same time you'll be making the enemy party weaker overall [and essentially shutting down 2-3 key characters completely]

Terraban

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

31 Mar 2008 at 21:38 - 209

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

1. Yes. The people who seem to understand how the game works and are experienced with the game don't care for mesmers in PvE.

2. I didn't. Fixed it for you.

You can thank me later.

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

01 Apr 2008 at 04:21 - 210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Fixed it for you.

You can thank me later. good job, i was about to do that

mistokibbles

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2008

N/A

02 Apr 2008 at 05:19 - 211

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

to name a few...

interrupting
making monks pull there hair out due to excessive diversion/shame use
making me pull my hair out for excessive clumsiness/ineptitude spamming

stripping enchants - shatter enchantment makes spirit bond go boom
i dunno just generally f@#$ing up everyone's builds?

o and btw your going to need a flame retardant suit for the imminent flaming you are about to get for the mesmer hate I prefer rend enchantments over shatter actually. I have to admit, I haven't played a mesmer a lot but I've played enough. I much prefer a rit over a mes. Might be because I've tried to go interrupter with my extremely slow reflexes.
1.Shame has never really caused problems for me when monking. Diversion would get annoying only if it interrupted a key skill in my build.
2.Clumsiness and ineptitude never bothered me.
3.Rend Enchantments <33

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

02 Apr 2008 at 15:11 - 212

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistokibbles

I prefer rend enchantments over shatter actually. I have to admit, I haven't played a mesmer a lot but I've played enough. I much prefer a rit over a mes. Might be because I've tried to go interrupter with my extremely slow reflexes.
1.Shame has never really caused problems for me when monking. Diversion would get annoying only if it interrupted a key skill in my build.
2.Clumsiness and ineptitude never bothered me.
3.Rend Enchantments <33 Shame can be casted through with a low energy set. Diversion is sorted by pre-veiling, and escentially the strongest dom skill there is in my opinion.
Shatter Enchantments is best used for spike assists in GvG.

visitor

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Kronos HQ

12 Apr 2008 at 07:10 - 213

Well on topic i think you should make a rit. Even though LOVE mesmers its very much easyer to get a party as a rit with the communitys attitude being like Colonehs

Off-topic. Ranger will never be better att interuptions than mesmers.Dazed you say try [skill]Migraine[/skill] . As an added bonus Mesmers dont use projectiles.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 12:45 - 214

Quote:

Originally Posted by visitor

Off-topic. Ranger will never be better att interuptions than mesmers.Dazed you say try [skill]Migraine[/skill] . As an added bonus Mesmers dont use projectiles. When you hit a dazed enemy you interrupt a spell if the enemy is casting a spell. That is what makes it better than Migraine for PvE affairs, not to mention you can spread the daze with Epidemic.

You forgot to mention. Projectiles also offer a little thing called "Prediction Interrupting", and D-Shot for bows.
Also, you can reflex interrupt (average reflex is 0.25) up to 3/4 casts on a Ranger regardless (at half range, unless you have a 0.1 reflex). Anything below 3/4 casts is quite pointless to reflex interrupt anyway.

And Ranger interrupts don't only hit spells.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 16:52 - 215

Yes dazed is the most powerful condition in the game against casters and the ranger probably has the easiest way to spread that.

On the flip side, being a physical class, the ranger is vulnerable to blocking, blind, miss hexes, dodging (when BHA is shot from far), and obstacles to line-of-sight. Epidemic is not used well by heroes and heroes have the superior reflexes. In PvP, simply casting [Spirit Shackles] on the ranger and condition removal would make BHA quite useless.

In PvE, mesmers have [Cry of Pain] which is 100 armor ignoring in-the-area AoE damage every 12 seconds, for rangers, if they bring [Broad head arrow], they can't bring [barrage], so mesmers dont have to rely on daze to interrupt and they can deal nice armor-ignoring damages even on interrupt builds on their own.

PvE human rangers can interrupt a single target more easily than mesmers using BHA and even spread it with [Epidemic] then [Volley] to interrupt more than one, ONLY if the casters are standing shoulder-to-shoulder. If they bring Epidemic, they can't go /Rt and bring [Splinter Weapon] to help with their [Volley] so their damage goes way down without help from another party member. Also they can be shutdown/blocked/dodged/blinded/miss more easily and if they go BHA, they dont generate as much damage as an interrupt mesmer.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 16:59 - 216

I fail to understand you on the "Mesmers don't rely on daze to interrupt".

Daze gives your ENTIRE party Warmongers Weapon, but only affecting spells.

I also stated in my post that anything below 3/4 cast is generall stupid to try to reflex interrupt, unless you're the AI. Regardless, Ranger and Mesmer heroes share the same reflexes, and as stated already, it's not like microing your heroes every 15 seconds is hard to do.

Also you forgot that Rangers still have Volley, which is better than Barrage because it's not elite and allows you to bring a much stronger elite. Heck, Barrage's only half decent purpose on a Ranger now is filling up SY fast.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 17:18 - 217

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I fail to understand you on the "Mesmers don't rely on daze to interrupt".

Daze gives your ENTIRE party Warmongers Weapon, but only affecting spells.

I do agree with you that daze is the most powerful condition against casters (read my first sentence). But if you resort to daze from BHA, then you are missing out on other elites.

Quote: I also stated in my post that anything below 3/4 cast is generall stupid to try to reflex interrupt, unless you're the AI. Regardless, Ranger and Mesmer heroes share the same reflexes, and as stated already, it's not like microing your heroes every 15 seconds is hard to do. Perhaps, but that is assuming you monitor your ranger hero constantly throughout the battle and watch if his BHA is recharging, by the time you do that, many things can happen, Herta or another hero/hench may have dispersed them with her Sandstorm for example. If the hero can cast it himself, right after daze, that would be best.

Quote:

Also you forgot that Rangers still have Volley, which is better than Barrage because it's not elite and allows you to bring a much stronger elite. Heck, Barrage's only half decent purpose on a Ranger now is filling up SY fast. If you bring BHA, it already takes up your elite slot and if you bring Epidemic, you are not bringing Splinter Weapon without relying on external help. You can configure a ranger to be a better interrupter than a mesmer (provided all those shutdowns that I mentioned can be avoided) but by doing that, you miss out on damage.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 17:29 - 218

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I do agree with you that daze is the most powerful condition against casters (read my first sentence). But if you resort to daze from BHA, then you are missing out on other elites.

BHA is the most powerful Ranger elite for PvE. What other elites am I missing out on, now?

Quote:

Perhaps, but that is assuming you monitor your ranger hero constantly throughout the battle and watch if his BHA is recharging, by the time you do that, many things can happen, Herta or another hero/hench may have dispersed them with her Sandstorm for example. If the hero can cast it himself, right after daze, that would be best. I sort of agree. But these macros are pure /win.

Quote: If you bring BHA, it already takes up your elite slot and if you bring Epidemic, you are not bringing Splinter Weapon without relying on external help. You can configure a ranger to be a better interrupter than a mesmer (provided all those shutdowns that I mentioned can be avoided) but by doing that, you miss out on damage. I usually bring Splinter Weapon off my Ranger. It's much stronger on other things. And BHA doesn't waste an elite slot, in PvE, it's beyond worth it.

Also, a Ranger is much stronger than a Mesmer in terms of interruption, pressure and survivability. Mesmers are strong in hex shutdown (Diversion, Shame). They also have faster recharging interrupts that are cheaper and can affect non-spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

In PvP, simply casting [Spirit Shackles] on the ranger and condition removal would make BHA quite useless. Why are you using BHA in PvP?

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 17:51 - 219

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

BHA is the most powerful Ranger elite for PvE. What other elites am I missing out on, now?

I sort of agree. But these macros are pure /win.

But that degree of micro management is pure annoying. It is not like you are casting an enchant for your hero that lasts for 10+ seconds and forget about it.

You have to watch if skill 1(BHA) is recharging first, then if it is, try to use skill 2(Epidemic), only if it is not a solitary caster, then hopefully your hero would just use skill 3 (Volley) for each group of casters. BHA has a 15s recharge so if the stupid ranger hero has used it on a solitary caster you have to wait. If I am a SY paragon, I would have missed several good opportunities to shout SY by then if I have to micro my ranger hero to that extend.

Quote:

I usually bring Splinter Weapon off my Ranger. It's much stronger on other things. And BHA doesn't waste an elite slot, in PvE, it's beyond worth it. If you bring Splinter Weapon on your Ranger than you are not going /Me to bring Epidemic right?

Quote: Also, a Ranger is much stronger than a Mesmer in terms of interruption, pressure and survivability. Depending on the build a Mesmer can have high survivability too. My artificer mesmer has 89AL, so not all mesmers are squishies. As for pressure, 100 AoE armor-ignoring damage with a chance for a skill-level interrupt every 12s in PvE from just [Cry of Pain] IS alot of pressure.

Even without interrupting, [Cry of Pain] would still generate 100 AoE armor-ignoring damage to all foes in the area. Ranger can be configured to be a better interrupter than a mesmer but at a huge cost to damage.

Quote:

Mesmers are strong in hex shutdown (Diversion, Shame). They also have faster recharging interrupts that are cheaper and can affect non-spells. Actually hex shutdown is quite limited in PvE so I only use it as a secondary role on my mesmers. Rangers have faster recharging interrupts in general and can affect non-spells interrupts.

Quote:

Why are you using BHA in PvP? Yes I said BHA is useless in PvP, another point you should consider.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 18:02 - 220

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Is using macros really that hard?

Quote:

If you bring Splinter Weapon on your Ranger than you are not going /Me to bring Epidemic right?

Solved by either bringing Epidemic on a hero, or bringing Splinter Weapon on a hero.

Quote:

Depending on the build a Mesmer can have high survivability too. My artificer mesmer has 89AL, so not all mesmers are squishies. As for pressure, 100 AoE armor-ignoring damage with skill-level interrupt every 12s in PvE from just [Cry of Pain] IS alot of pressure.

Ranger can be configured to be a better interrupter than a mesmer but at a huge cost to damage. I always use shields on my primary caster sets. Survivor insignias on all pieces of armour, and shields.
You also forgot spreading around poison via Apply Poison is alot cheaper.
And you forgot that Rangers usually only bring [distracting shot] and [savage shot], and the rest of their bar for versatility. Their damage is mediocre at best, and Mesmers don't deal very nice damage, but very nice shutdown. If I wanted damage I would take something stronger. Warrior anyone?
Rangers aren't ment for pure damage anyway...

Quote:

Yes I said BHA is useless in PvP, another point you should consider. Then why did you mention using it in PvP?

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 18:16 - 221

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Is using macros really that hard?

How can your macros make decisions for you? You can't just press a button and hope everything works fine. There is no point to keep casting Epidemic if the target is not dazed yet and you have to move your ranger in closer to the target to avoid BHA from being dodged. That is why you have to micro-manage alot during the battle.

Quote:

Solved by either bringing Epidemic on a hero, or bringing Splinter Weapon on a hero.

If you have to rely on external help then this Ranger vs Mesmer comparison is void since it has become unfair. Sure 2 characters are stronger than 1, and 8 characters are stronger than 2, what does that prove?

Quote:

I always use shields on my primary caster sets. Survivor insignias on all pieces of armour, and shields.
You also forgot spreading around poison via Apply Poison is alot cheaper.
And you forgot that Rangers usually only bring [distracting shot] and [savage shot], and the rest of their bar for versatility.

Apply Poison doesn't work with Volley or even Barrage since it is a preparation. [distracting shot] skill disabling doesn't work when your target is dazed, by the way.

Quote:

Their damage is mediocre at best, and Mesmers don't deal very nice damage, If 100 AoE armor ignoring damage every 12s is not considered nice damage, then I dont know what is.

Quote:

but very nice shutdown. If I wanted damage I would take something stronger. Warrior anyone? If you are bringing in 8 vs 8 now, then it is a team build vs team build comparison not a mesmer vs ranger anymore.

Quote:

Rangers aren't ment for pure damage anyway... And by bringing more interrupt skills + daze would reduce their damage even more, compared to mesmers. But I agree with you that, at least for single target and only some situations, multi-target interrupt, a R/Me can be better for the role of interrupter provided the ranger shutdowns are avoided somehow and you have to sacrifice damage.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 19:35 - 222

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Read the updates. You can use macros on your keyboard to make microing easier.

Quote:

Because I don't waste my attributes. I run Splinter Weapon off my Ranger because to me, it's a waste of a skillslot on a martial class when we have heroes.

Quote:

Apply Poison doesn't work with Volley or even Barrage since it is a preparation. [distracting shot] skill disabling doesn't work when your target is dazed, by the way.

I know. But it still does it to things that aren't spells. And yeah, tabspace for that effect of Apply Poison instead of using Volley.
Simply put, those skills still interrupt non-spell skills.

Quote:

If 100 AoE armor ignoring damage every 12s is not considered nice damage, then I dont know what is. Put Splinter Weapon on your melee. Pull mobs so they're at adjacent range. *Boom*

Quote:

If you are bringing in 8 vs 8 now, then it is a team build vs team build comparison not a mesmer vs ranger anymore. Read again. "If I wanted damage, I would go create something stronger. Warrior anyone?"...
Warriors are the true damage dealers of this game.

Quote:

And by bringing more interrupt skills + daze would reduce their damage even more, compared to mesmers. But I agree with you that, at least for single target and only some situations, multi-target interrupt, a R/Me can be better for the role of interrupter provided the ranger shutdowns are avoided somehow and you have to sacrifice damage. 3 skills, and you can still use a decent investment in Marksmanship. 4 skills including Epidemic, but you have 3 skills left. Use skills like Sloth Hunter's Shot, Volley ect...

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 19:51 - 223

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Read the updates. You can use macros on your keyboard to make microing easier.

You cant use it to make a if-then decision based on target daze status unless you are runing a hacked program which would be using bannable cheat.

Quote:

Because I don't waste my attributes. I run Splinter Weapon off my Ranger because to me, it's a waste of a skillslot on a martial class when we have heroes.

Then you have to rely on external help and your ranger cannot cast epidemic, as far as discussion is concerned. (i.e. your Ranger can't be a R/Rt/Me all at the same time). Instead of trying to go 2 vs 1 in your comparison against a mesmer, why cant you compare in a fair way instead?

If you feel that you need to over-extend your character and go 2 vs 1 to beat someone then you have already lost.

Quote:

I know. But it still does it to things that aren't spells. And yeah, tabspace for that effect of Apply Poison instead of using Volley.
Simply put, those skills still interrupt non-spell skills. And your Poison skills would only affect 1 target at a time, great.

Quote:

Put Splinter Weapon on your melee. Pull mobs so they're at adjacent range. *Boom* Then you are not using Epidemic for AoE daze anymore if you are packing Splinter Weapon on your ranger, unless you pull in another character which a mesmer can then do the same to expand her own bar too.

Quote:

Read again. "If I wanted damage, I would go create something stronger. Warrior anyone?"...
Warriors are the true damage dealers of this game. The point being that, in this ranger vs mesmer only discussion, an interrupt mesmer can STILL pack good damage while your ranger cant.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 20:24 - 224

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You cant use it to make a if-then decision based on target daze status unless you are runing a hacked program which would be using bannable cheat.

What? Last time I checked using these macros makes them use the skill on the same target as you.

Quote:

Because running Splinter Weapon on a Ranger, is a waste of attributes, when you can run it on a different person for better results.

Quote:

If you feel that you need to over-extend your character and go 2 vs 1 to beat someone then you have already lost.

Read above.

Quote:

And your Poison skills would only affect 1 target at a time, great. I said tabspace. Since the poison has a duration, which many conditions do, you can tabspace it through enemies.

Quote:

Then you are not using Epidemic for AoE daze anymore if you are packing Splinter Weapon on your ranger, unless you pull in another character which a mesmer can then do the same to expand her own bar too. Splinter Weapon to me is a waste of attributes on a Ranger. Deja Vu much?

Quote:

The point being that, in this ranger vs mesmer only discussion, an interrupt mesmer can STILL pack good damage while your ranger cant. Did you even read the other bit underneath the final quote?
3 skills left, these skills can be used for more damage.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 20:54 - 225

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

What? Last time I checked using these macros makes them use the skill on the same target as you.

Ok feel free to keep pressing your macro key as much as possible, without monitoring if BHA is even fired, or without regard if there are adjacent monsters, and keep casting Epidemic with or without daze and waste all your ranger's energy then. That way you dont need to monitor anything and reduce micro-management to a minimum if you insist on calling that a viable solution.

Quote:

Because running Splinter Weapon on a Ranger, is a waste of attributes, when you can run it on a different person for better results.

Then be a R/Me and dont use Splinter Weapon. You have to choose between R/Rt and R/Me.

If you have to say that your Ranger + heroes combined is more powerful than 1 solitary mesmer then go ahead, if that means anything.

Quote:

I said tabspace. Since the poison has a duration, which many conditions do, you can tabspace it through enemies. Except poisoning 1 target at a time is not an example of a great damaging skill. Epidemic can help you alittle (if there are adjacent enemies), it would be a strain to your BHA ranger if you cast it too often since expertise does not affect spells. Even if you managed to poison all the monsters in the mob it is still not as impressive as the 100 armor ignoring AoE damage from [Cry of Pain] every 12 seconds.

Quote:

Did you even read the other bit underneath the final quote?
3 skills left, these skills can be used for more damage. And since you mentioned Apply Poison, so you have 2 skills left after BHA,Savage,Distracting,Epidemic,Volley,Apply Poison. Add in a res and you only have 1 skill left. Do you see where I am going with this?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 21:00 - 226

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then be a R/Me and dont use Splinter Weapon. You have to choose between R/Rt and R/Me.

If have to say your Ranger + heroes combined is more powerful than 1 solitary mesmer then go ahead, if that means anything.

This is a team game anyway. You have to keep in mind that you WILL NOT be the only person in your party.

Quote:

Except poisoning 1 target at a time is not an example of a great damaging skill. It's a tactic used in PvP, to cause pressure.

Quote:

And since you mentioned Apply Poison, so you have 2 skills left after BHA,Savage,Distracting,Epidemic,Volley,Apply Poison. Add in a res and you only have 1 skill left. I don't use Apply Poison on bars with Volley or Barrage. I didn't even use Apply Poison in that part of the argument anyway.

And Volley is actually one of those optional slots. It can be used for damage, and disruption on people casting spells in adjacent range with BHA on them.

BHA, Epidemic, Savage, D-Shot, Volley, Optional, Optional, Res Sig.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 21:14 - 227

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

This is a team game anyway. You have to keep in mind that you WILL NOT be the only person in your party.

If you have to weigh in the rest of the team in your discussion then wouldn't this become team 1 vs team 2 comparison then instead of Ranger vs Mesmer? Or Mesmer vs Ritualist?

Quote:

It's a tactic used in PvP, to cause pressure.

Sure and mesmers can play a different role in PvP like energy/skill denial and mesmer interrupts that are much better in PvP than a ranger's BHA.

In PvE, poisoning 1 target at a time just doesn't even come close to [Cry of Pain].

Quote:

I don't use Apply Poison on bars with Volley or Barrage. I didn't even use Apply Poison in that part of the argument anyway. Then why did you keep mentioning it?

Quote:

And Volley is actually one of those optional slots. It can be used for damage, and disruption on people casting spells in adjacent range with BHA on them.

BHA, Epidemic, Savage, D-Shot, Volley, Optional, Optional, Res Sig. So, you have only 2 skills left to makeup for her lack of real damage. A mesmer's [Cry of Pain] fits into her build nicely even with other interrupts.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 21:23 - 228

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you have to weigh in the rest of the team in your discussion then wouldn't this become team 1 vs team 2 comparison then instead of Ranger vs Mesmer? Or Mesmer vs Ritualist?

A vary of professions makes a team strong, but in PvE, Mesmers are weaker in shutdown capabilities.
Ritualists offer Splinter Weapon and Ancestors' Rage, which are all in all, very strong skills. Aswell as things such as Protective was Kaolai.

Mesmers are just weaker in PvE because the thing they do best isn't strong enough because things die too fast. You might as well take something that makes things die faster.

Quote:

Sure and mesmers can play a different role in PvP like energy/skill denial and mesmer interrupts that are much better in PvP than a ranger's BHA.

I thought you said you don't use BHA in PvP?

Quote:

In PvE, poisoning 1 target at a time just doesn't even come close to [Cry of Pain]. 8 DPS on the enemies. Pew enemy targetted via tabspace (You should be using a Poisonous bowstring on this bow you're using anyway), you're dealing 8 DPS per enemy poisoned. 96 damage in total by the time CoP recharges.

Heh, some people don't grind their titles for max and play for fun you see. Some people farm for fun (I know one.

) but some people farm for cash so they can get to playing the game normally. Or maybe KoaBD.

Quote:

Then why did you keep mentioning it? It's the best Ranger preperation there is.

Quote:

So, you have only 2 skills left if you bring volley. Volley is more of a damage skill. Those 2 skills that are there also can be used for more damage. Wait, haven't I said something almost 100% the same as this before?

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 21:50 - 229

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Mesmers are just weaker in PvE because the thing they do best isn't strong enough because things die too fast. You might as well take something that makes things die faster.

I dont find that mesmers kill slow in HM at all. Try this build for just one example:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=481

I normally cast [Phantom Pain] first then [Cry of Pain], then [Shatter Delusion]. It is [Shrinking Armor] next, then [Cry of Pain], then [Shatter Delusion] again. At the end of that combo, you have already inflicted 342 armor ignoring damage of which 200 of that is AoE plus deep wound and cracked armor. That is not even counting the damage from degen, [Pain Inverter], and [Energy Burn]. [Assassin's Promise] then recharges all your skills and you are ready to go for the next target.

Quote:

I thought you said you don't use BHA in PvP?

I said BHA is useless in PvP since you brought PvP into the subject.

Quote:

8 DPS on the enemies. Pew enemy targetted via tabspace (You should be using a Poisonous bowstring on this bow you're using anyway), you're dealing 8 DPS per enemy poisoned. 96 damage in total by the time CoP recharges. Don't forget to count in the time to shoot each target through.

Quote:

Heh, some people don't grind their titles for max and play for fun you see. That is beside the point. Sunspear is an easy title to max and besides, in a build discussion, you should assume all titles are maxed anyway.

Quote:

Volley is more of a damage skill. Those 2 skills that are there also can be used for more damage. Wait, haven't I said something almost 100% the same as this before? That doesn't matter, the damage still sucks and there are still more shutdowns for a Ranger.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 21:58 - 230

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

snip

Lacks versatility. Your entire bar is devoted to damage.

Quote:

I said BHA is useless in PvP since you like to bring PvP into the subject.

Quote:

Sure and mesmers can play a different role in PvP like energy/skill denial and mesmer interrupts that are much better in PvP than a ranger's BHA.

Then why are you comparing Mesmer interrupts to BHA in PvP then?

Quote:

Don't forget to count in the time to shoot each target through.

So that makes the tactic bad?
You CAN use Savage Shot to speed up the condition spread you know.

Quote:

That is beside the point. Sunspear is an easy title to max and besides, in a build discussion, you should assume all titles are maxed anyway. All titles are easy in PvE. Some people despise grind.

Quote:

That doesn't matter, the damage still sucks and there are still many shutdowns for a Ranger. Yet there are 2 other slots left. And Splinter Weapon on a different person should solve the damage problem (And before you try the "2v1" crap, this is a team game anyway, and this not only synergises with Volley, but on melee it creates a heck of alot of damage.)

And yeah, there are shutdowns for a Ranger, but there are also Monks.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 22:07 - 231

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Then why are you comparing Mesmer interrupts to BHA in PvP then?

Because you were talking about BHA as a great interrupt then you brought in PvP.

Quote:

So that makes the tactic bad?

Merely pointing out that you conveniently did not include the time to switch through your targets in your DPS calculation.

Quote:

You CAN use Savage Shot to speed up the condition spread you know. Using Savage Shot to spread poison to all your foes is not energy efficient.

Quote:

All titles are easy in PvE. Some people despise grind. Doesn't matter, all build discussions should assume max titles.

Quote:

Yet there are 2 other slots left. And Splinter Weapon on a different person should solve the damage problem (And before you try the "2v1" crap, this is a team game anyway, and this not only synergises with Volley, but on melee it creates a heck of alot of damage.)

And yeah, there are shutdowns for a Ranger, but there are also Monks. Is this the right time for me to bring out my MM fiends + Barbs from my curse necro to add that to my damage then?

Monk skills do not get rid of most of the shutdowns for you, besides you usually bring Mhenlo anyway.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 22:15 - 232

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Because you were talking about BHA as a great interrupt then you brought in PvP.

BHA is only good in PvE because AI is stupid. I thought people found out the AI was stupid snice...the start of the game?

Quote:

Merely pointing out that you conveniently did not include the time to switch through your targets in your DPS calculation.

When the pressure sinks in it hurts.

Quote:

Using Savage Shot to spread poison to all your foes is not energy efficient. Expertise is already beyond strong.

Quote:

Is this the right time for me to bring out my MM fiends + Barbs from my curse necro to add that to my damage then?

Monk skills do not get rid of most of the shutdowns for you, besides you usually bring Mhenlo anyway.

Go ahead. That can be really achieved without the Mesmer. And things like Holy Veil and condition removal in general > stacking. Especially since most Rangers these days run Mending Touch on their bars. Well, Mending Touch > condition stacks, and RC. Don't forget you can always D-Shot the ones that REALLY hurt (Faintheartedness, Blinding Surge).

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 22:21 - 233

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

BHA is only good in PvE because AI is stupid. I thought people found out the AI was stupid snice...the start of the game?

Then I dont know why you brought in PvP after mentioning BHA.

Quote:

Expertise is already beyond strong.

Not that strong, since I have 2 level 20 rangers myself.

Quote:

Go ahead. That can be really achieved without the Mesmer. Are you saying it is ok for you to include your heroes into the damage but not ok for me to include mine? Are you asking for a handicap?

Quote:

And things like Holy Veil and condition removal in general > stacking. Especially since most Rangers these days run Mending Touch on their bars. Well, Mending Touch > condition stacks, and RC. Don't forget you can always D-Shot the ones that REALLY hurt (Faintheartedness, Blinding Surge). Did you say Mending Touch for your Ranger? Then you are not using Epidemic?

How many secondaries does your ranger need to have at any one time anyway?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 22:24 - 234

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Not that strong, since I have 2 level 20 rangers myself.

I ALWAYS have it at 14. And I never have energy problems.

Quote:

Are you saying it is ok for you to include your heroes into the damage but not ok for me to include mine? Are you asking for a handicap? Nope. There's just no synergy between YOUR Mesmer and YOUR heroes. Which there is between MY Ranger and MY hero.

Quote: If you can claim to leave your damage to your heroes, I can also claim that I leave my utility on my heroes.

And I prefer to leave the interrupts to my heroes anyway.

Quote:

Did you say Mending Touch for your Ranger? Then you are not using Epidemic?

How many secondaries does your ranger have at any one time anyway? Oh? How often do you see a B-Surger in PvE?

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

12 Apr 2008 at 23:37 - 235

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I ALWAYS have it at 14. And I never have energy problems. Even so, spamming savage shot just to spread poison for every foe would reduce your energy so much that you can have problems using BHA when you need to.

Sorry but 14 in expertise doesn't equate to infinite energy.

And blind is just one way of stopping rangers. Why dont you just admit that your ranger damage numbers don't add up to as much without involving your other heroes into it?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

12 Apr 2008 at 23:58 - 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Even so, spamming savage shot just to spread poison for every foe would reduce your energy so much that you can have problems using BHA when you need to.

Sorry but 14 in expertise doesn't equate to infinite energy.

And blind is just one way of stopping rangers. Why dont you just admit that your ranger damage numbers don't add up to as much without involving your other heroes into it? Well I spy no energy problems. Heck, if you're really running into energy problems, whip out a Zealous Bow and spam Volley...

Oh yeah, I usually try to synergise myself with my hero builds.
With my hero, BHA, Splinter, Volley and Epidemic = AoE interrupt, with some nice firepower.
Splinter Weapon can also be used on melee, Paragons or whatever, and still have an extremely strong effect.

With your Mesmer build, you're sacrificing utility. Using so much firepower equals less utility.

And I don't understand why you don't accept that in PvE, Rangers are the better interrupters because with BHA, you give your entire party Warmonger's Weapon (That includes Minions and such), and with Epidemic (Which I favour over Splinter Weapon because more conditions = better), I've screwed up all casters in adjacent range.

I also have the power to do prediction interrupts, which yes has 2 factors (Observation and luck), but is something that favours over Mesmer interrupts.
With Mesmer interrupts, you're only gaining the same as Rangers only Rangers have the following - Lower recharges, and 20s disable (D-Shot), and can interrupt everything, not only spells which is a limitation on the majority of Mesmer interrupts.
And you're only going to be able to reflex interrupt the same things.

Let's keep in mind that it's the player who will be playing the Mesmer if s/he chooses.
Also, let's keep in mind PvE is easy. But you would really want the better results, which from what has been explained, is Ritualist.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

13 Apr 2008 at 00:28 - 237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well I spy no energy problems. Heck, if you're really running into energy problems, whip out a Zealous Bow and spam Volley...

Oh yeah, I usually try to synergise myself with my hero builds.
With my hero, BHA, Splinter, Volley and Epidemic = AoE interrupt, with some nice firepower.
Splinter Weapon can also be used on melee, Paragons or whatever, and still have an extremely strong effect.

With your Mesmer build, you're sacrificing utility. Using so much firepower equals less utility.

Yet I get utility and damage on my heroes...
And I get the ability to reflex interrupt as the player using the Ranger. (Since the AI is stupid.)

Quote:

And I don't understand why you don't accept that in PvE, Rangers are the better interrupters because with BHA, you give your entire party Warmonger's Weapon (That includes Minions and such), and with Epidemic (Which I favour over Splinter Weapon because more conditions = better), I've screwed up all casters in adjacent range. Why dont you read my posts again because you keep twisting it?

Rangers can be configured to be a better interrupter but at huge expense to damage. Mesmers, on the other hand, are more balanced.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

13 Apr 2008 at 00:35 - 238

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you can claim to leave your damage to your heroes, I can also claim that I leave my utility on my heroes.

And I prefer to leave the interrupts to my heroes anyway.

I dont see much utility in yours either, besides interrupts, which heroes do it faster anyway.

Quote:

Why dont you read my posts again because you keep twisting it?

Rangers can be configured to be a better interrupter but at huge expense to damage. Mesmers, on the other hand, are more balanced. Look, Rangers were never ment for pure damage, as Mesmers were never ment for it either.
If I wanted damage, I would go make a Warrior. Simple as.

Take a look at the common Cripshot bar. It's not ment for damage, but for field control, pressure, splits...

On the other hand, take a look at the common Mesmer bar. More direct shutdown.

The Ranger has his / her own on conditions.
And as I've already stated, BHA acts as a huge Warmonger's Weapon to everything attacking the target. That alone is worth more than playing your Ranger for damage. Heck, if I wanted my Ranger for damage, I can just whip out a 15^50 Vampiric Hornbow and spam Volley. I'd still be achieving more than CoP, and I won't need the hex to do so.

Overall I do more DPS with it.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

13 Apr 2008 at 00:38 - 239

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Yet I get utility and damage on my heroes...

Take a look at the common Cripshot bar. It's not ment for damage, but for field control, pressure, splits... And cripshot is not useful for PvE. If you are talking about PvP all along why even bring up BHA?

Even changing to a Vampiric bow and Volley would not give you more DPS than CoP. And if I dont think of synergy, I wouldn't bother with cracked armor.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

13 Apr 2008 at 12:31 - 240

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont see much utility in yours either, besides interrupts, which heroes do it faster anyway.

I use the AI's stupidity to my advantage. Easier prediction interrupts, since the AI is so predictable.
And the utility in my skillbar is BHA, D-Shot and Savage Shot. They can all be used offensively and defensively.

Quote:

And cripshot is not useful for PvE. If you are talking about PvP all along why even bring up BHA? Wtf? I was using it as an example. Cripshot, is one of the most versatile skillbars there is. And the reason I used it as an example, is because of it's versatility.

Quote:

Even changing to a Vampiric bow and Volley would not give you more DPS than CoP. And if I dont think of synergy, I wouldn't bother with cracked armor. All in all, it would. You wouldn't need the hex to do it either. Besides, if we removed PvE skills from this, this would be useless.