Thursday, March 20, 2008 Game Update - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 10:52 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

But PvE players also have a tendency to come back when they have gotten over it. PvP players strive for competition, and when a company shows they are unwilling to act in imbalance, they do not come back. I am, though, talking from people in the game I know. I've known many a PvE player who has left when they were upset with the state of the game, only to come back when they had a chance to stop crying. I have yet to see a PvP player try to make a serious return. If they do, they hang around in a pug guild to have a laugh, but don't actually get back into the game. The returning PvE players buy new expansions, the PvP players don't.

Perfect example of this:

The Nightfall exodus of PvP'ers that took tons of good guilds and basically they all quit, because of Nightfall's Power Creep.

They haven't, and probably never will, returned. Note that this is probably (I'm guessing obviously) at the least around 250 people minimum, probably 500-1000 at most (many probably PUG for kicks now...but won't buy the new stuff obviously.)

That's already a lot of money Anet just lost out on from EotN sales + GW2 sales since they might not give it much of a chance either. And don't think that's all they miss out on, PvPers tend to hang out with lots of PvPers and bring them into the game, and they will spread the word about bad stuff quite quickly.

Quote:

And yes, while it is true that there are many more PvE players than PvP players, PvP players are still a valuable community to Arenanet. If they posed no financial threat to Arenanet if they all stopped playing, Arenanet wouldn't have gone through the trouble of setting up an Automated Tournament System - if they could support the company only off PvE players playing the game, they wouldn't have dedicated resources to such a system, they wouldn't keep balancing the game for PvP. ArenaNets actions alone show they are trying to keep the PvP community around, which means Arenanet needs them to stay around. So, again, if some PvE players cry over an update, so be it. If the majority of PvP players leave, it's going to hurt them. A lot.

Quoted. For. Truth.

Nice to see someone who knows what they are actually talking about and knows at least, both sides, on this damn side.

Now to argue with a bunch of dummies:

Quote:

PvP screws people over, as usual. Big surprise.

Here's some logic for you:
PvP needs balance since its humans versus humans.
PvE doesn't need much of one (as long as its winnable) since the AI isn't going to be complaining about how overpowered you are.

Quote:

Take the turret ranger, for example. That build has virtually no defense. Blocking works against it, hexes work, heck, even conditions do! The build has a ton of counters which, assuming a normally flexible metagame, would start getting used frequently enough to render turret rangers useless. Instead, the skills are changed, and the build, instead of seeing occasional play in the hope of catching an unprepared opponent, has effectively been broken into a state where no one will use it at all.

You. Have. No. Clue. What. You. Are. Talking. About.

Stop thinking in one person/8 skill mode, and think in 8 person/64 skill mode.

Quote:

So nerf nerf nerf and more nerf?

Across all skill balance updates, there has been nearly quadruple the amount of buffs than nerfs for all PvP legal skills.

Quote:

the guy who said Spirit Bond

lol

Again, think in 64 skill mode. There's this thing called hexes like Rigor Mortis, to prevent you from blocking the turret ranger, then this thing called massive and cheap Enchantment Removal to remove your SB/RoF/etc, then this thing called the recently buffed FF to destroy any conditions you put on them and put them back to you.

hooray?

Pandora's box

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Netherlands

Mo/W

21 Mar 2008 at 11:48 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

There's no real way to listen to PvErs on skill balance when you want to keep PvP balanced. When a skill is overpowered in PvE, people laugh and kill more monsters, and still have fun doing what they were doing. In PvP, it totally destroys the fun in the competition. So the game has to be balanced around PvP. Sure, PvE'rs have a cry when something gets nerfed, but PvP'rs leave the game when something goes unbalanced for any decent amount of time. It's more damaging to Arenanet, financially, when PvP'rs leave, than when PvE'rs cry.

We have had that discussion numerous times now and there never will be consensus about this. One can argue about the real effects on PvE, but the human factor here is that PvE gamers more and more start to dislike PvP players because of all the hassle. The only solution: Separate PvE and PvP skillsets in GW2.

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

21 Mar 2008 at 12:05 - 163

In an attempt to make Bow rangers viable in PvP, ANet introduced activation times on some skills.

Now they suddenly find them too powerful and reduce the damage on them.

Seems they contradict themselves. Rangers do not seem to be allowed to do high damage. Oh my. :P

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

21 Mar 2008 at 12:09 - 164

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Here's some logic for you:
PvP needs balance since its humans versus humans.
PvE doesn't need much of one (as long as its winnable) since the AI isn't going to be complaining about how overpowered you are.

And PvPers are very arrogant people that come and show how their need can be much more important than the useless change to PvErs experience. And if they quit, they're really immature, aren't they?

I'm fed up with this "us, us, us, us" (I'll always remind PvE people of the same). I've seen PvErs interested in PvP, but rarely the contrary. It seems to me IMHO that they're a bit more self-centered and less aware of what a PvE experience can be.

This "my logic against yours" is a total FAIL, in the global and collective sense. Please take a look at this (failed) thread that I created (all PvPers should read it and ponder):
A mercenary approach to playing due to a very competitive gaming world (?)

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

21 Mar 2008 at 12:16 - 165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I've seen PvErs interested in PvP, but rarely the contrary.

Some smart person (Snow Bunny?) once said something along the lines of "There are no PvEers and PvPers, there's just PvEers and those that play both."
Seriously - obs mode sometime, and you'll see a lot of the top players all decked out in FoW armour, tormented weapons, EotN pieces - lots of chaos gloves, bandanas, dread masks, etc.

The so-called "PvPers" play PvE as well.

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

21 Mar 2008 at 12:19 - 166

This flaw has been around since the vert begining of GW.

It must be accepted that PvE and PvP can NOT co-exist without one having some detrimental effect upon the other.

Both sides have lost a great many good players, not just PvP, and many of them never return.

To break this down as simply as possible...

PvP players exist in a static environment that requires skill changes to keep the game from becoming stagnent.

PvE players exist in a variable environment that requires stable skill sets to allow them to adapt to the various maps/mission/quests/dungeons.

In PvP when a build is created people strive to find a counter for it, if none can be found then the build is concidered broken and must be nerfed.
In PvE when a build is found people wish to keep using it, when it gets nerfed they become angry and frustrated.

The best analogy I can think of would be Nascar vs driving accross a country. In Nascar the cars all have to be fairly equal to allow for a competitive race. If you are driving accross country and suddenly you find that your automatic car is now standard youve got a problem. Sure you can adapt and learn to drive standard, but you purchased an automatic transmision that is now worthless.

Every time a skill is changed it is equivalent to reseting a lvl 20 char to lvl 1, in PvE we have to discard all that we learned while levelling up and start out fresh by testing the altered skills and how they react with all of our other skills.

Clarissa F

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Fighters of the Shiverpeaks

Me/Mo

21 Mar 2008 at 12:24 - 167

3000 players gone....compared to... 4 million games sold, meaning, around 6-700,000 players. I think they were willing to take that hit, since they more than made it up in sales to casual players.

PvP was a strong part of the game before Nightfall. With that game, Anet showed the direction they are going: where the money is going.

On topic: as long as they aren't touching D-shot, they can go nuts. Crippling Shot/condition spread/interruptions will always be the ranger strength in PvP, not spiking. As for the mesmer, what worse can they do? My mesmer's been screwed so many times, she now just asks Anet to let her know when they're done.

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

21 Mar 2008 at 12:28 - 168

ANet seems unable to get their game right, both in PvP and PvE.

They will torture the remaining GW1 players till GW2, and then we see the result of the tests and new ideas of GW1 animal erm player testing.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

21 Mar 2008 at 12:29 - 169

Oh my goodness everyone. Don't judge an entire type of playerbase from some people's attitudes. It's no fun.
Can't most of us just get along?!

Sab

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

21 Mar 2008 at 12:30 - 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

And PvPers are very arrogant people that come and show how their need can be much more important than the useless change to PvErs experience. And if they quit, they're really immature, aren't they?

I'm fed up with this "us, us, us, us" (I'll always remind PvE people of the same). I've seen PvErs interested in PvP, but rarely the contrary. It seems to me IMHO that they're a bit more self-centered and less aware of what a PvE experience can be.

Pretty much every PvPer started GW in PvE, and many of them still PvE to deck out their chars with shiny items, armor, and titles. On the contrary, very few PvErs play PvP at a level where skill balancing matters. PvPers are not self-centered, instead, they can see both sides of the game and conclude that skill balancing does not affect their PvE experience nearly as much as their PvP experience.

netniwk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

Bellgium

W/E

21 Mar 2008 at 12:33 - 171

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Pretty much every PvPer started GW in PvE, and many of them still PvE to deck out their chars with shiny items, armor, and titles. On the contrary, very few PvErs play PvP at a level where skill balancing matters. PvPers are not self-centered, instead, they can see both sides of the game and conclude that skill balancing does not affect their PvE experience nearly as much as their PvP experience.

It's a lot easier to get into high-end PvE than into High end PvP.

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

21 Mar 2008 at 12:35 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

In an attempt to make Bow rangers viable in PvP, ANet introduced activation times on some skills.

Now they suddenly find them too powerful and reduce the damage on them.

Seems they contradict themselves. Rangers do not seem to be allowed to do high damage. Oh my. :P

Erm... Bow Rangers have been not just viable, but in some cases needed in PvP, like Crippling Shot and Magebane Ranger. So please stop splurting rubbish please, or at least get a clue.

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 12:37 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Pretty much every PvPer started GW in PvE, and many of them still PvE to deck out their chars with shiny items, armor, and titles. On the contrary, very few PvErs play PvP at a level where skill balancing matters. PvPers are not self-centered, instead, they can see both sides of the game and conclude that skill balancing does not affect their PvE experience nearly as much as their PvP experience.

true,

I like the updates, tho the A/D should get another nerf. Changing the elite won't change alot to the strength of the build.

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

21 Mar 2008 at 12:40 - 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Every time a skill is changed it is equivalent to reseting a lvl 20 char to lvl 1, in PvE we have to discard all that we learned while levelling up and start out fresh by testing the altered skills and how they react with all of our other skills.

oh noez! rodgort's now recharges 3 seconds slower!!!!one!! I hav 2 lern2play all over agin

I think you're being overly dramatic.

Harmless

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Uber Elite Rit Force of Justice Headquarters

What's a Guild? [LoL]

Rt/

21 Mar 2008 at 12:41 - 175

Here we go again. There are always "seriously overpowered skills" that are being "seriously abused".

Maybe the entire underlying pvp set up is completely flawed. It seems to be an just a series of "seriously overpowered skills" that are being "seriously abused".

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 12:45 - 176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmless

Here we go again. There are always "seriously overpowered skills" that are being "seriously abused".

Maybe the entire underlying pvp set up is completely flawed. It seems to be an just a series of "seriously overpowered skills" that are being "seriously abused".

there are too many skills at the moment. I don't mind if they nerfed 3/4 of all the skills into oblivion to make the game better. Of course, THAT would make the PvE community cry.

the Puppeteer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

21 Mar 2008 at 12:47 - 177

meh - anet wasn't using the nerf bat hard enough

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

21 Mar 2008 at 12:55 - 178

Jeez... Who'd ever have thought so many felt so very deeply about Angorodons Gaze and Powershot?

Or is it just the same generalized whining about issues unrelated to the update we get every. single. update, going back to 2005?

Harmless

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Uber Elite Rit Force of Justice Headquarters

What's a Guild? [LoL]

Rt/

21 Mar 2008 at 13:03 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

there are too many skills at the moment. I don't mind if they nerfed 3/4 of all the skills into oblivion to make the game better. Of course, THAT would make the PvE community cry.

Actually, a variation of that might be better. Why don't they try limiting skills available for some types of pvp. They could make the majority of the skills pve only with only a core group available to pvp. Then they could change which ones are available to pvp each month so that new builds have to be made. Might make it interesting. It would be pretty cool to see who could come up with the best builds for the month.

If they did that I would start watching pvp on observer more.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

21 Mar 2008 at 13:05 - 180

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Or is it just the same generalized whining about issues unrelated to the update we get every. single. update, going back to 2005?

Yeah, ya think you'd get used to it.

But still, these threads are like bad accidents on the highway - you just got to slow down and stare even if it doesn't affect you.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

21 Mar 2008 at 13:07 - 181

I've said it before, and so have many others.
They seriously have to consider 2 skill sets. One for PvP and one for PvE.
Everquest 2 did it, and they did it for a reason.
If they don't, they either make PvP no fun to play, or they make PvE a lop-sided snoozefest.
Right now it's teetering around both. They'll disappoint people either way.

Stolen Souls

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 13:16 - 182

I'm not gonna complain about more nerfs, as by now I just take them with a "meh...".

But, it does kinda bug me how something like Power Shot is nerfed in PvE because of PvP, while things like Ursan are allowed to continue rampaging and steamrolling over anything and everything imaginable in PvE. :/

Two different sets of skills should be implemented for PvP/PvE...and should have been from the start...

Anon-e-mouse

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

@ Home

League Of Friends [LOF]

R/Mo

21 Mar 2008 at 13:21 - 183

Ursan is not used in PvP, so it can't steamrol over "anything and everything"

Stolen Souls

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 13:22 - 184

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

Ursan is not used in PvP, so it can't steamrol over "anything and everything"

I never said it was...

lol u so smrat

My point was that something as insignificant in PvE as Power Shot, is hit. While something as blatantly overpowered as Ursan isn't touched.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

21 Mar 2008 at 13:24 - 185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

Ursan is not used in PvP, so it can't steamrol over "anything and everything"

And that's how Anet probably thinks about it. They haven't grasped that people complain about Ursan's because it creates the mentality of why bother trying to figure out what build to use for an area when you don't have to. They don't know how that adversely affects enjoyment.
Anet hasn't gotten that far in PvE design.

Darkobra

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Scotland

Type like an idiot, I'll treat you like an idiot

E/Me

21 Mar 2008 at 13:25 - 186

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I've said it before, and so have many others.
They seriously have to consider 2 skill sets. One for PvP and one for PvE.
Everquest 2 did it, and they did it for a reason.
If they don't, they either make PvP no fun to play, or they make PvE a lop-sided snoozefest.
Right now it's teetering around both. They'll disappoint people either way.

They very lazily tried to do that with PvE only skills.... which then got nerfed very quickly, so most are near useless compared to regular skills.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 13:27 - 187

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

And PvPers are very arrogant people that come and show how their need can be much more important than the useless change to PvErs experience. And if they quit, they're really immature, aren't they?

I'm fed up with this "us, us, us, us" (I'll always remind PvE people of the same). I've seen PvErs interested in PvP, but rarely the contrary. It seems to me IMHO that they're a bit more self-centered and less aware of what a PvE experience can be.

This "my logic against yours" is a total FAIL, in the global and collective sense. Please take a look at this (failed) thread that I created (all PvPers should read it and ponder):
A mercenary approach to playing due to a very competitive gaming world (?)

Um.

Yeah.

You're wrong.

Very few PvE'ers are interested in PvP, but 100% of all PvPers before the PvP kit, have PvE'd. In fact, if you obs most top teams, you will see people decked out in 15k armor, have storm bows, eternal shields, tormented shields, etc.

The same players you will see out of obs with maxed PvE titles and what not too.

I, personally, have R4 KOABD, so.

We're not all "PvE hates" as you make "us" out to be, all we do is hate the PvE'ers who think balances deserve to be PvE skewed, which makes no logical sense.

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

3000 players gone....compared to... 4 million games sold, meaning, around 6-700,000 players. I think they were willing to take that hit, since they more than made it up in sales to casual players.

From an exodus.

I didn't say all the PvP'ers quit you dummy.

And if they were willing to take that hit....that's why they didn't....right?

- Tain -

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[SMS]

R/

21 Mar 2008 at 13:31 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

They very lazily tried to do that with PvE only skills.... which then got nerfed very quickly, so most are near useless compared to regular skills.

All of the PvE-only skills which got nerfed are still in popular use (Seed, TNtF) and Spear of Fury actually got buffed. Yes, most are niche skills, but I wouldn't ever say that most are near useless compared to regular skills. I think what stops most of them from seeing play is the 3 skill limit.

Anon-e-mouse

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

@ Home

League Of Friends [LOF]

R/Mo

21 Mar 2008 at 13:44 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

My point was that something as insignificant in PvE as Power Shot, is hit. While something as blatantly overpowered as Ursan isn't touched.

Wrong, your point was that Power shot was nerfed in PvE, because it's used in PvP, and then you asked why Ursan wasn't nerfed. It wasn't nerfed because it's not used in PvP. Pretty much answers that question.

Stolen Souls

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 13:47 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

Wrong, your point was that Power shot was nerfed in PvE, because it's used in PvP, and then you asked why Ursan wasn't nerfed. It wasn't nerfed because it's not used in PvP. Pretty much answers that question.

Exactly. Which is why I said there needs to be two seperate sets of skills. So that insignificant skills won't need to be touched in PvE. Understand, now? Or shall I try to spell it out more?

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

21 Mar 2008 at 14:14 - 191

Ursan IS a separate set of skills. It's the living proof why separating PvE and PvP is a bad idea: any semblance of balance or challenge goes straight out the window for PvE. The rebalancing is good for PvE.

I don't care about PvP, it's completely uninteresting to me. I do care about PvE, though, and that's why I hate PvE only skills.

I don't want MORE PvE only skills, I want them completely GONE.

Adapt, dammit! It's not hard. Whining about your favorite brainless farming build getting a very minor nerf is just stupid.

Stolen Souls

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 14:18 - 192

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Adapt, dammit! It's not hard. Whining about your favorite brainless farming build getting a very minor nerf is just stupid.

Yes, it is a bad idea. Ursan should be added to PvP. Then it'd be toned down accordingly.

And yeah....well my R/ Power Shot farming build got hit! It was so brainless and easy to use, too. QQ

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

21 Mar 2008 at 14:25 - 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

And that's how Anet probably thinks about it. They haven't grasped that people complain about Ursan's because it creates the mentality of why bother trying to figure out what build to use for an area when you don't have to. They don't know how that adversely affects enjoyment.
Anet hasn't gotten that far in PvE design.

The only reason to seperate PvE and PvP is so you can have wildly imbalanced crap in PvE. Why people want that is beyond me.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

21 Mar 2008 at 14:28 - 194

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

We're not all "PvE hates" as you make "us" out to be, all we do is hate the PvE'ers who think balances deserve to be PvE skewed, which makes no logical sense.

Please, re-read my message, I never thought, wrote or implied the notion of "hate". I said "self-centered", there's a gigantic semantic gap between the two. I should have added "the PvPers and PvErs on GWG", as my generalisation was probably harmful to both sides. Similarly to the abuse in terms "PvPer" and "PvEr" as many people seemlessly move between the two. But I think that there are requirements that are put in opposition and 2 gameplays that do not overlap (do PvPers enjoy roaming around the PvP map for the pleasure of looking at the scenery? what about the learning curve, which is rather a learning cliff, for PvP? while for PvE you just have to go to wiki or the Q&A forum, for PvP you end up with comments like "find a good PvP guild")

PvP balance has an impact on PvE, while the contrary is not true. It's even worse with Z-chest which transforms PvP rewards into PvE ones (though no one forces you to sell or use them in PvE. I also perfectly understand the necessities of PvP, though I do not understand the disrespectful behaviour of many (but not all) PvPers. I sincerely think that the PvP gameplay gets into PvPers and make them harsher than they are, a bit as if they continue to play PvP even when the game is finished (while, as you said, for PvErs, it's just a program ...)

It's a game, Anet proposes changes to make the game challenging, not for YOU, but for a community of thousands of players from all over the world. And if you quit because you're angry at Anet, you really have a problem you should solve outside of the game. Being angry is normal, reacting this way (unless you're no longer taking pleasure at playing) is immature and counter-productive. There's a good reason why PvErs have breaks from the game from time to time, something that could actually benefit the PvP world if this "mercenary approach" (see link in my previous post) was dropped in favor of a more "honorable" (for a lack of a better word, funnily this may relate to the "Dishonorable" hex) approach.

I know that my comments will meet walls of misunderstanding (and I'm sorry if I've harmed anyone's feeling, as I said before generalisation on GWG is dangerous) and be ignored, but I still wanted to make this point.

It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

21 Mar 2008 at 14:29 - 195

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Yes, it is a bad idea. Ursan should be added to PvP.

I think a "PvE-skills in PvP" weekend would be hilarious. Ursanway vs. Cry Of Pain mesmers w. Save Yourselves-way vs. Arcane-Echoed Vanguard Assassin w. Pain Inverter-way!

Quote:

And yeah....well my R/ Power Shot farming build got hit! It was so brainless and easy to use, too. QQ

If you check the whine-fests which follow every single update, you'll find it's always farmers. It's always farm builds. Case in point: recent nerf to Flame/Storm Djinns Haste. The thread ran, what, 15 pages? of complaints from farmers who could no longer use their old build to farm all the raptor hatchlings outside Rata Sum in one go.
Or how about the bugfix to Reversal of Damage? How much bitching was there about that, even though all it required to adjust for was to replace ONE of the two optional skill slots on the Smiter hero with Signet of Devotion.

Always farmers.
To a large degree, it seems, because they are simply averse to change, and partly because they have no clue how their build actually works so they have no clue how to fix it.

reetkever

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/E

21 Mar 2008 at 14:32 - 196

Meh same stuff again. PvP gets more balanced and some more PvE skills become worthless.

And then people ask why we are using stuff like Ursan instead of stuff like Power Shot. :P

Stolen Souls

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 14:32 - 197

Well, like I said in my earlier post, I was not complaining about the nerfs. It just strikes me that they pay SO much attention to skills in PvP, "nerfing" them, and affecting the insignificant ones in PvE. Yet they allow the OBVIOUSLY overpowered Ursan to continue steamrolling PvE. If there was a skill so blatently overpowered in PvP would it be left alone for so long? :/

I mean look at Intensity...Seed of Life. They were considered overpowered, and were hit quite hard. Ursen is FAR more powerful, and how was it changed?...touch range. Whoopie. >_>

A. Noid

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/A

R/E

21 Mar 2008 at 14:35 - 198

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

If you check the whine-fests which follow every single update, you'll find it's always farmers.

How does this explain this thread?

For the record:
I am disappointed, but only for the lack of variety for the ranger in PvP.
Seems every time I open up Obs mode, its the same set of skills over and over and...

-ANoid

reetkever

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/E

21 Mar 2008 at 14:36 - 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Well, like I said in my earlier post, I was not complaining about the nerfs. It just strikes me that they pay SO much attention to skills in PvP, "nerfing" them, and affecting the insignificant ones in PvE. Yet they allow the OBVIOUSLY overpowered Ursan to continue steamrolling PvE. If there was a skill so blatently overpowered in PvP would it be left alone for so long? :/

I mean look at Intensity...Seed of Life. They were considered overpowered, and were hit quite hard. Ursen is FAR more powerful, and how was it changed?...touch range. Whoopie. >_>

Yes but PvE doesn't need balance.

If PvE needed balance, monsters would have groups of 8 max, their levels would be 20, they wouldn't have extra HP, Armour, halve skill recharge etc.

Seriously, the Monsters in PvE outclass the players in almost every way. If you want to balance PvE, you have to redesign the game I think.

Stolen Souls

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Mar 2008 at 14:38 - 200

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Yes but PvE doesn't need balance.

If PvE needed balance, monsters would have groups of 8 max, their levels would be 20, they wouldn't have extra HP, Armour, halve skill recharge etc.

Seriously, the Monsters in PvE outclass the players in almost every way. If you want to balance PvE, you have to redesign the game I think.

If it didn't need balance, why were the other PvE skills hit (Seed of Life/Intensity/TNtF)? While Ursan is still...well...there?