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Originally Posted by Arkantos
According to who?
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Thursday, March 20, 2008 Game Update
Zahr Dalsk
Master Knightfall
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Ranger Power Shot: decreased damage to 5..20. Precision Shot: decreased damage to 3..18. Sundering Attack/Penetrating Attack: decreased damage to 3..10; decreased armor penetration to 10%; increased recharge to 4 seconds. |
Giga_Gaia
With all these damn skill updates so close behind one another, there's not going to be much time for the meta to settle now is there? So my question is, why even bother?
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Ah, damn, I was going to reply the majority of the game (PvE) when I remembered no one in PvE cares about mesmers. *wanders off*
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Vl Vl D
I too was just starting like those skills for Quickies in Ra. Penetrating shot,
sundering shot were nice too spam in conjunction with marksman wager or prep shot and expert focus for extra dmg. Three second recharge meant that you could just spam and eat soft tagets.
sundering shot were nice too spam in conjunction with marksman wager or prep shot and expert focus for extra dmg. Three second recharge meant that you could just spam and eat soft tagets.
Trub
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Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia
With all these damn skill updates so close behind one another, there's not going to be much time for the meta to settle now is there? So my question is, why even bother?
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Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Well, the game isn't balanced around PvE
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Giga_Gaia
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Originally Posted by Trub
To keep everyone on their toes, and to keep the game from getting stale(er).
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![[DE]](/static/static/../Img/avatar38220_14.gif){kind=avatar}
[DE]
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Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia
But the problem is that these updates are getting so frequent, that the meta doesn't even have time to adjust to the changes, and out of nowhere *BAM* the nerfbat comes out yet again.
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JeniM
So nerf nerf nerf and more nerf?
1 up and 2 down
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Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia
But the problem is that these updates are getting so frequent, that the meta doesn't even have time to adjust to the changes, and out of nowhere *BAM* the nerfbat comes out yet again.
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enter_the_zone
An easy way to have fixed the ranger attacks would be to make them more damaging and better AP vs high AL targets. Would have made little difference to this change in PvP and made those skills still viable in PVE.
Go, anerf, go. You really aren't making the decision on GW2 very hard at all....
Go, anerf, go. You really aren't making the decision on GW2 very hard at all....
ManMadeGod
bloody nerf...
lol@ Angorodon's Gaze
remember Oppressive gaze? one more overnerfed skill
ranger skills look so poor.
wave@ Mantra of Concentration
the last question I want to ask is...
Why is NR/Tranquility build abuse in HA still alive? that is the one that really imba imo.
lol@ Angorodon's Gaze
remember Oppressive gaze? one more overnerfed skill
ranger skills look so poor.
wave@ Mantra of Concentration
the last question I want to ask is...
Why is NR/Tranquility build abuse in HA still alive? that is the one that really imba imo.
Master Ketsu
It's sad how Izzy keeps nerfing skills based on the Meta instead of nerfing skills based on general IMBA. By shaking the meta all around it will eventually get to the point were previously bad skills in the meta become good, and we will have a huge mess of a skillset that would require total overhaul of practically every skill to ever have a chance of a balanced game...
...Not to say it hasn't already happened...
Balancing based on what is being played doesn't work. Its hit or miss. Great example: [skill]Crippling shot[/skill].
...Not to say it hasn't already happened...
Balancing based on what is being played doesn't work. Its hit or miss. Great example: [skill]Crippling shot[/skill].
Tearz1993
MoC shouldn't have been nerfed like that imo... was a viable way to prevent the power leak on every air attunement since they apparently didn't like glyph canceling.
Koross
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Originally Posted by Sab
For those who don't think, half of these skills were *buffed* in the first place, but it turned out they were overbuffed. Now they've been toned down to more reasonable levels, but they're still better than they were before any updates.
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Div
Why do people bother trying to teach the posters in Riverside? It's worse than trying to teach a new concept to an 80 year old group :S
Most people are dumb and myopic, and will only look at one side of things. They simply don't understand the meaning behind game balance. I still remember when WoH went from 100 to 150 down to 120 heal, and everyone cried how Anet nerfed WoH to 120 while forgetting that it's still much stronger than before.
Most people are dumb and myopic, and will only look at one side of things. They simply don't understand the meaning behind game balance. I still remember when WoH went from 100 to 150 down to 120 heal, and everyone cried how Anet nerfed WoH to 120 while forgetting that it's still much stronger than before.
Crom The Pale
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Well, the game isn't balanced around PvE, so PvErs opinions don't really matter. Harsh, but true.
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I can only hope that in GW2 there is some MAJOR divide between PvP and PvE or it just won't be a game worth playing for those of us that are PvE players.
To be fair those of us that play PvE only could care less about balance in PvP and the "Meta" game can just die and await its rise in GW2.
shoyon456
WOW!!!!
A skill update where derv stuff WASNT hit hard, hahaha
I am happy with with this one, not only did my favorite class not get whacked this time, but my least favorite class did!
GJ anet, you deserve a "smart move" on this one. And yeah, rangers had some fairly overpowered stuff anyways, thanks
A skill update where derv stuff WASNT hit hard, hahaha
I am happy with with this one, not only did my favorite class not get whacked this time, but my least favorite class did!
GJ anet, you deserve a "smart move" on this one. And yeah, rangers had some fairly overpowered stuff anyways, thanks
Redfeather1975
Everything looks okay, but I wonder why Mantra of Concentration's duration to recharge break point is 11-12?
How many people actually run inspiration of 11+? Even mesmers rarely do.
Stops non mesmers from abusing the skill, but still...seems like it's a desperation defense now.
How many people actually run inspiration of 11+? Even mesmers rarely do.
Stops non mesmers from abusing the skill, but still...seems like it's a desperation defense now.
garethporlest18
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Originally Posted by Koross
Seriously, I thought the discussion on the ranger nerf would have ended with Sab's post that I quoted.
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pumpkin pie
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Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
And that's the problem with the metagame. Instead of letting people work out counters and letting these counters become dominant enough to force out the "flavor of the week" build, the build gets nerfed and the players go scavenging for the next overpowered thing again. Except that the metagame just remains unbalanced, and is "balanced" again by the next nerf.
Take the turret ranger, for example. That build has virtually no defense. Blocking works against it, hexes work, heck, even conditions do! The build has a ton of counters which, assuming a normally flexible metagame, would start getting used frequently enough to render turret rangers useless. Instead, the skills are changed, and the build, instead of seeing occasional play in the hope of catching an unprepared opponent, has effectively been broken into a state where no one will use it at all. Sure, dervspike was hard to prot against, but the key point is that it was hard, not impossible. Prot Spirit could still catch what cut through Aegis and other blocking skills, and Shelter could do it on a party-wide basis. Dervspike was simply a reaction to the meta's over-reliance on blocking, and - since it wasn't an "auto-win button" - the meta should have been allowed to adjust to it and find the right counters for it. But, hey, not like it matters now... |
Lets nerf knockdown warrior next, so that they can knock you down once every 5 minutes only.... mwahahahahaha :P~ because its ridiculously overpower, what is with the you staying on the ground while the warrior kills you with life stealing hammer mods + you unable to get up and dies within 3 strikes... so yeah, i can't find a way to counter that so , lets nerf it.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Tearz1993
MoC shouldn't have been nerfed like that imo... was a viable way to prevent the power leak on every air attunement since they apparently didn't like glyph canceling.
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Very true it seams.... I can only hope that in GW2 there is some MAJOR divide between PvP and PvE or it just won't be a game worth playing for those of us that are PvE players. To be fair those of us that play PvE only could care less about balance in PvP and the "Meta" game can just die and await its rise in GW2. |
xDusT II
It's unfortunate that everyone on the internet gets an opinion, because 95% of them comment on things they know nothing about, or blame ANet because they're an easy target. Not one change here was exceptionally drastic. Pewpew ranger's were only introduced around a month ago and people are already complaining that the games been ruined for them.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by xDusT II
It's unfortunate that everyone on the internet gets an opinion, because 95% of them comment on things they know nothing about, or blame ANet because they're an easy target. Not one change here was exceptionally drastic. Pewpew ranger's were only introduced around a month ago and people are already complaining that the games been ruined for them.
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-Loki-
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Oh, I'm well aware of that, though I disagree with ArenaNet's decision to do so (instead of, say, listening to BOTH, or splitting the skill balances so there is a PvE and PvP version of each. But, well, Ursan says it all about how much they care about that).
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arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
There's no real way to listen to PvErs on skill balance when you want to keep PvP balanced. When a skill is overpowered in PvE, people laugh and kill more monsters, and still have fun doing what they were doing. In PvP, it totally destroys the fun in the competition. So the game has to be balanced around PvP. Sure, PvE'rs have a cry when something gets nerfed, but PvP'rs leave the game when something goes unbalanced for any decent amount of time. It's more damaging to Arenanet, financially, when PvP'rs leave, than when PvE'rs cry.
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Redfeather1975
Why be so mean to PvE people.
It's not like PvP is saintly. It's stale and hung up on strategies that hardly ever change. There is a part of that which in a small way is responsible for why some builds do far too well in PvP.
I heard someone say once that the PvP metagame is it's own worst enemy. In a way it's true.
It's not like PvP is saintly. It's stale and hung up on strategies that hardly ever change. There is a part of that which in a small way is responsible for why some builds do far too well in PvP.
I heard someone say once that the PvP metagame is it's own worst enemy. In a way it's true.
lutz
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Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
Of course not. They already nerfed the pet build I was running when my pet, a living creature, stopped leaving a corpse. Now, they just nerf whatever build I'm running, since I don't have a "pet" any more
 All right, I'll bite. Let us examine this step-by-step: Q. Why are turret rangers the meta? A. Because they work so well. Q. Why do turret rangers work so well? A. Because people aren't ready for the damage spike. Q. Why aren't people ready for the damage spike? A1. They don't know what the build does (wait, can't be that, the build's been around...) A2. They don't have defense (wait, can't be that, everyone brings defense...) A3. They don't bring the right counters. In the game of rock-paper-scissors, rock remains the meta only so long as no one starts bringing paper. If paper shows up in games consistently enough, rock stops being the meta, because bringing rock is like asking for a loss. That's when paper becomes the new meta, and people start bringing scissors to counter it. Before long, scissors is the new meta, and people dust off their rocks and go out smashing things In a healthy gaming environment, that is how the meta evolves. It does not matter how "overpowered" the build is, unless A) it is an "auto-win" or B) there are no counters. There are a few "auto-win" things in Guild Wars, like the Necromancer blood-stealing skills that go through everything (which is partly why so many people hate touch rangers), but with a pool of skills as huge as we have there should be no shortage of counters. Skills should be nerfed only if the build's counters are so few and far between that everyone starts playing the build in the hope of out-spiking the enemy first. Instead of being "the meta," the build becomes "the field." Turret rangers were nowhere near that by definition - there are too many counters for them. And while we're on the topic of nerfs, why do they have to be made at all? There have been countless complaints about skills that never see any use. As Wail of Doom recently illustrated, ANet is not above changing skill functionality completely. If some new, "overpowered" build rears its ugly head, why not "buff" a few unused skills - by increasing their power, reworking their functionality, or eliminating anomalies - to counter the build? Instead of having "nerfs" demolish the established meta, such "buffs" would put more tools in the "rock-paper-scissors" pool, allowing the meta to balance itself. |
There's a build called "balanced". The general rule of thumb is, if it can't be dealt with by balanced in any way, shape or form (and cannot be mitigated), then it is probably overpowered. Examples:
Dervish Spike - Massive enchant removal
Sineptitude
What this essentially means is: if you are forced to spec against a specific build because it is so prevalent and nearly impossible to beat without a spec (e.g. everyone running Rend Enchantments for A/D spike, Patient Spirit for Dervish spike, Monk runners for sineptitude) then it is probably overpowered.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Redfeather1975
Why be so mean to PvE people.
It's not like PvP is saintly. It's stale and hung up on strategies that hardly ever change. There is a part of that which in a small way is responsible for why some builds do far too well in PvP. I heard someone say once that the PvP metagame is it's own worst enemy. In a way it's true. |
Redfeather1975
I don't mind updates arcane. I just like the updates that change something so it's still an option that actually expands the available effective tactics, rather than narrow them down or keep them very limited.
I know it's very hard to do, but sometimes I wonder if the skill team is thinking that far ahead.
When I saw the new skills for EotN, I got angry wondering how on earth they thought some of them would ever fit in. When I see certain buffs I start to really doubt they are thinking that far ahead.
I would like GW2 to have more tactics that rely less on specific builds. So that builds aren't completely restricting what a team can or can't do. Maybe the Emergent Skill system I heard about would allow that in some way. It's no fun when you encounter something you can't counter, because your team's build won't support it, because the only effective tactics available don't support bringing those skills.
I know it's very hard to do, but sometimes I wonder if the skill team is thinking that far ahead.
When I saw the new skills for EotN, I got angry wondering how on earth they thought some of them would ever fit in. When I see certain buffs I start to really doubt they are thinking that far ahead.
I would like GW2 to have more tactics that rely less on specific builds. So that builds aren't completely restricting what a team can or can't do. Maybe the Emergent Skill system I heard about would allow that in some way. It's no fun when you encounter something you can't counter, because your team's build won't support it, because the only effective tactics available don't support bringing those skills.
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by Sab
For those who don't think, half of these skills were *buffed* in the first place, but it turned out they were overbuffed. Now they've been toned down to more reasonable levels, but they're still better than they were before any updates.
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Uber Mass
Meh we used guiding weapon to counter Escape way... back to the drawing board!!!!
Sab
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Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
All right, I'll bite. Let us examine this step-by-step:
Q. Why are turret rangers the meta? A. Because they work so well. Q. Why do turret rangers work so well? A. Because people aren't ready for the damage spike. Q. Why aren't people ready for the damage spike? A1. They don't know what the build does (wait, can't be that, the build's been around...) A2. They don't have defense (wait, can't be that, everyone brings defense...) A3. They don't bring the right counters. |
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Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
In the game of rock-paper-scissors, rock remains the meta only so long as no one starts bringing paper. If paper shows up in games consistently enough, rock stops being the meta, because bringing rock is like asking for a loss. That's when paper becomes the new meta, and people start bringing scissors to counter it. Before long, scissors is the new meta, and people dust off their rocks and go out smashing things
In a healthy gaming environment, that is how the meta evolves. |
So instead, a healthy gaming environment means there is no rock, paper or scissors as those represent the "extremes," or gimmicks which hard-counter each other.
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Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
It does not matter how "overpowered" the build is, unless A) it is an "auto-win" or B) there are no counters. There are a few "auto-win" things in Guild Wars, like the Necromancer blood-stealing skills that go through everything (which is partly why so many people hate touch rangers), but with a pool of skills as huge as we have there should be no shortage of counters. Skills should be nerfed only if the build's counters are so few and far between that everyone starts playing the build in the hope of out-spiking the enemy first. Instead of being "the meta," the build becomes "the field." Turret rangers were nowhere near that by definition - there are too many counters for them.
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Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
And while we're on the topic of nerfs, why do they have to be made at all? There have been countless complaints about skills that never see any use. As Wail of Doom recently illustrated, ANet is not above changing skill functionality completely. If some new, "overpowered" build rears its ugly head, why not "buff" a few unused skills - by increasing their power, reworking their functionality, or eliminating anomalies - to counter the build? Instead of having "nerfs" demolish the established meta, such "buffs" would put more tools in the "rock-paper-scissors" pool, allowing the meta to balance itself.
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Originally Posted by Amy Awien
Bullocks, Needling Shot now owns PA and SA. +damage on PA/SA is reduced to insignificance and the reduction in armour penetration makes raw arrow damage as insignificant as unskilled arrows. The increase in recharge severly hurt their usefulness in rapid-fire or MG builds. I'd rather have PA and SA the way they were before the update.
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Amy Awien
No, I don't think it's not pretty good, they look pretty meaningless, little more then an expensive IAS eating your skillbar and your energy. If you alternate a regular shot with a 1sec one you have something similar to a regular IAS.
The combination of +damage, armour penetration and the 3 sec recharge set them apart from other 1sec activation skills. With the 4 sec recharge and reduced damage they have nothing setting them apart as a good choice.
The combination of +damage, armour penetration and the 3 sec recharge set them apart from other 1sec activation skills. With the 4 sec recharge and reduced damage they have nothing setting them apart as a good choice.
Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
..Sure, PvE'rs have a cry when something gets nerfed, but PvP'rs leave the game when something goes unbalanced for any decent amount of time.
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
It's more damaging to Arenanet, financially, when PvP'rs leave, than when PvE'rs cry.
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Metalmaster
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
To be honest, the current system is fine. PvE gets horribly overpowered pve skills and consumables. You also fight dumb AI enemies, which is generally easy. You just need to learn how to adapt. No matter what skills get nerfed, you should be able to continue easily playing.
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Dronte
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Originally Posted by Witchblade
rofl this is really updating and nerfing just random stuff
wth with the ranger skills here anet needs a new key-bored |
AWESOME nerfs, these were all needed, cya bloodspike, no more assadervish nabz. The ranger attacks' nerf are kinda weird, those werent that hard to counter at all.. Only worked in RA tbh-> Spirit bond and gg. Those ranger attacks now useless though.
Magehunter->nothing special, I'm not surprised it costs +1 adrenalin now.
Its all good, good job Anet.
Turbobusa
PvPers want a Rock-Rock-Rock game.
OMG they split lets QQ on guru for 3 weeks so that they nerf this build!
I'm tired of hearing "this does not reward skill". You have skills when you know how to counter.
There is no universal defense, therefore you must choose what to counter, and adapt to what you're less ready to face. That makes the game rock/paper/scissors, to a lesser extend.
I mean, if we eventually get to the point where the game is balance (see lod uber defense meta where everyone was saying that the game was balanced, but f*ucking hell it was boring), how many builds will see play? 2? 3? And how many will just be variation of the same build overall? That's bloody boring.
As the above poster said, turret rangers were countered by spirit bond. About everyone takes spirit bond. If not, PS + RoF.
OMG they split lets QQ on guru for 3 weeks so that they nerf this build!
I'm tired of hearing "this does not reward skill". You have skills when you know how to counter.
There is no universal defense, therefore you must choose what to counter, and adapt to what you're less ready to face. That makes the game rock/paper/scissors, to a lesser extend.
I mean, if we eventually get to the point where the game is balance (see lod uber defense meta where everyone was saying that the game was balanced, but f*ucking hell it was boring), how many builds will see play? 2? 3? And how many will just be variation of the same build overall? That's bloody boring.
As the above poster said, turret rangers were countered by spirit bond. About everyone takes spirit bond. If not, PS + RoF.
-Loki-
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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
You really have to explain that, because PvE players leave, too! And there are much more PvE players than PvP players. Even if every PvP player left ANet could still run their business. If every PvE player left, ANet goes down.
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And yes, while it is true that there are many more PvE players than PvP players, PvP players are still a valuable community to Arenanet. If they posed no financial threat to Arenanet if they all stopped playing, Arenanet wouldn't have gone through the trouble of setting up an Automated Tournament System - if they could support the company only off PvE players playing the game, they wouldn't have dedicated resources to such a system, they wouldn't keep balancing the game for PvP. Arenanets actions alone show they are trying to keep the PvP community around, which means Arenanet needs them to stay around. So, again, if some PvE players cry over an update, so be it. If the majority of PvP players leave, it's going to hurt them. A lot.