Gaile's answer concerning the Ursan and 7 heroes imba issue:

Thing is, that it wouldn't destroy them any more. People that still want to PuG...still would...

Why can't people understand that? >_>

i honestly think the game is fine as it is. ursan is fine, and 3 heroes is fine. do people honestly think the game is hard enough that you NEED 7 heroes? the only place i can see that being an asset would be vanquishing, and even then, a bit much.

if you want a definite statement here it is.

from the start through many subsequent statements which say the same thing.

clear enough?

They also stated that you wouldn't get more powerful simply by investing more time.

In other words, times change. When time changes, things change. Nothing is definite in a game like Guild Wars.

'The final decision on this matter was made by the design team prior to release of Nightfall'

Prior to nightfall ^^ That's a while ago, the game changed, yet a final decision.

Slam in the face, I rest my case, hope I can. Off I go, head down, tail amongst my legs, tomorrow is another day

Basically what she said.

ANet being vague as hell. Nothing new here.

That's just like saying "Don't nerf XWAY because there are still people who play balanced".

It's logic that only works if you think about the game in extremely broad, general terms and know very little about how the game is actually played. Pretend you've never played guild wars and someone explained it to you while you weren't paying attention and her argument starts to make sense;

Pve skills = something good for pve players.
7 heroes = something good for pve players.

Therefore both together would be too many good things for pve players and be imbalanced. Nevermind that heroes can't use pve skills and don't really benefit from a player using them. Those are the sort of facts that can really get in the way of anet's style of totally uninforned game development.

I also think that this is a stupid idea, if 7 heroes were allowed the nightfall campaign would be a must to every single guild wars player, and it would be "byebye henchmen".However, I'd love to see 4 or 5 heroes instead of 3.But if A-Net implements 7heroes + 1 human, at least give the henchmen REAL builds.

Needing 7 heros is retarded, the games easy enough.

Using Ursan is retarded, the games easy enough.

basicaly, if you cant do the game with 3 heros and no ursan, you fail

It will not hurt PUGs. PUG players already think heroes suck and will generally only use them if they absolutely can't get a human.

Sure, the game is completable with heroes and henchmen. Well, some of it, not elite areas, and the point is not that it's too hard, it's that we'd like to run heroes so we can do our own team builds and not have to deal with the henchmen.

I don't see how 7 heroes will stop people using PUGs. People who don't want to PUG just choose to use hench to fill the gaps.

Agreed. Three heroes is "fine" ... but seven heroes would be more fun and add more life and creativity to the game, imo. I am not in favor of seven heroes because I need them but because they would be more fun to team up with than the (more boring, lamely skilled) henchmen.

Whatever happens, I did appreciate Gaile's post above for the simple reason that it reminded me, once again, that the developers do read the forums and care about what players think would improve the game -- even if, for whatever reason, they are unwilling or unable to make said changes.

I don't think that's why people want 7 heroes, 7 heroes would just make sense considering how many there are total, and how much better heroes are compared to henchmen. Besides if the game is too easy to warrant the use of 7 heroes then wouldn't that mean the game is also too easy for Ursan to be allowed?

Just want to be clear on this, I'm not trying to flame.

it's not the hard factor, it's the 'how large and spread out factor' the game has become. I find that the most reasonable argument(none of this ursan B.S.) as to why adding more heroes might get a rubberneck.

I'm one of those who want to have 7 Heroes. But since A-net already made a decision about it, I think I should give it up already.

But I have one more dream for GW before the release of GW2.

I wish they will release another campaign of GW where you can have a party using all characters who have already completed the game (ie a Warrior from Prophecies, or Assassin from Faction or Derv from Nightfall). A short campaign like GWEN is probably enough, there'll be no heroes nor henchies but only characters from your account who have already completed their own campaigns.

It will be good if you can switch between characters that you want to play while out in the battlefield, etc.

I think it will be fun. (I think many players will buy this campaign especially those who are collecting all GW games.)

And is the game really so hard that we need ursan?

People want 7 heroes to make the game more fun for them, not to make it easier.

I have been healing in guild ursan groups for HM fow the last two days and it is an overkill. It removes every bit of skill required to play the game and only requires grind to max your norn title. But it gets my monk to the end chest with 8 drops faster then anything else so for the purpose of greed, ZOMG I LOVE URSAN!

maybe 7 hero are to much, but 4 then..

I can live without henchmen if we got 7 heroes.

Hench are just that, henchmen nothing more, their builds are not that great and you cant control them like you can control heroes well enough.

I dont need 7 heroes to play the game easy mode, i want 7 heroes so i can manage and build their skillbars, which will be alot better then those of the henchmen, the only henchmen i really like is Herta, the earth hench in eotn and NF, decent skill bar and overall a good use.

Times do change and i dont give a damn about people saying 7 heroes will kill pugging, well go ursan and have a pug if thats what you want then, ursan brought pugging a bit back so be glad its still possible to pug. I am the kind of person that likes to play alone, i have my own guild with my real life friends in it and i couldnt care less about other players, sure ill have a chat with them in town and sometimes i join a random pug for the fun of it, or the misery but generally id love to see 7 heroes just because i want to build my own skill bars and not having to rely on stupid hench with increasingly outdated skillbars.

I'd say it's probably because some can't spot/play a decent build to save their lives. Remember it only takes one idiot to screw a pug totally. The number of "rush forward" ele's and wanding monks I've seen in PVE is scary. Sure, if you're h/hing, you need to wand (or bow) to get the h/h attacking, but in an 8 man party?

alot has changed since the release of nightfall. if the developers are still sticking to this theory they need to visit a doctor and have their heads removed from their..........um u get the idea. the developers screwed up by adding more heros in EoTN. if they are sticking to the 3 max they shouldnt of given us more to choose from. sure 7 heros could be overpowered but its PvE who cares. they dont seem to care, they gave us PvE only skills dure to their inability to balance both PvE and PvP at the same time then in turn nerf some PvE skills because they think they are over powered yet leave some alone. im like many who only teams up with my guild, alliance or my hero/hench team. ive put off doing missions for days to avoid Pug's. i dont get to spend as much time in game as i did a year ago but when i do spend time i want to do things once and not have to repeat do to some thinks he knows it all pug who either wont listen or causes a party wipe. H/H also gives me the ability to play at my pace. everything isnt about speed. theres time when i sit down and start something then have to get up and walk away for 10min or more due to real life stuff around the house. H/H dont get pissed and leave when that happens and i dont have to restart later because everything is the way i left it at that time.

Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, and Urgoz Warren.

I don't need them for vanquishing, but they'd help of course.

EDIT: Or let me fill up with henches. That'll work too. I've done Tombs with H/H and that area is tougher than at least the UW or FoW.

no offence, but in the cases of those places, its often more efficient to have full-human parties. and besides, what with all the problems with hero AI, what do you think 7 heroes would be like? and micro-ing them all, you wouldnt be able to see with all the skillbar interfaces everywhere.

I would actually now prefer ursanway in fow over 7 heroes any day. Getting to that end chest in HM with 8 drops in a little over an hour is just Rofflecoppter haha nerf this shit already imba.

But I still want 7 heroes for the fun of creating my own bars. I would love to play challenge missions with a full hero team.

Sure full human is easy. But I'm not interested in efficiency, only in playing what I want to play, when I want to play, at the pace I want to play.

And I think maybe you're overestimating the difficulty of these areas. This was how far I got in the UW with just three heroes, no consumables:


Human teams already have the advantage of being able to use ridiculously overpowered PvE skills - what difference would it make if I was allowed to bring a full team of heroes? I'll never be as efficient as a human team, and it's not like I would PUG either way.
All denying me the use of heroes and/or henches does, is keep me from completing certain areas of the game.

Something I told ever, from the begin on, since the release of Nightfall.
Henchman became absolutely USELESS. Just get Heroes with the Basic AI of Henchmen (this includes simple running out of AoE's) and there you have the Hero NPC, that totally kicks henchmens virtual butts ...

Heroes are theoretically nothing els,e, than improved Henchmen, theres no need anymore for the old version of the normal Henchmen, when you have Heroes, and the only reason, why we take yet still Henchmen into our party is, because otherwise we would be only 4/8, due to the limitation of heroes on max 3 >.> so we are forced to take them, to get the team complete (when you don't want to PuG)

Since release of Nightfall, I wanted ever to see the 5 "Lore Heroes" of Guild Wars becoming Hero-Npc.

Who wants not to have Mhenlo, Cynn, Eve, Aidan and Devona as Hero NPC's ? Giving them Skill Builds and Equipment as YOU like, and woudl lvoe to see them also in their Elite-Armors ?

The 6th Lore Hero came now finally with EotN and became direct a playable Hero NPC - I talk about GWEN, she's the missing Mesmer Lore Hero we all missed since prophecies beginning.
However, but really, who needs those douzens of Henchmen, like Danika, Alesia, Argo, Daiman ect pp, which come in ever only with the same weak builds of skills, which often absolutely don't fit very well to the explorable aeras's monsters, lettign you see, how your henchs get wiped in short time, if you - the player would not watch their health and help them out of all situations. Why do we need those henchmen, when we have OVER 20 Hero NPC's ???????

Really absolutely not understandable. these not well thought out things are it over time, hwich really let players think, that Anet cares over time lesser and lesser about what for crap they implement to the time, without thinking twice, which menchanics could be removed then, cause of having implemented a gameplay system, that is way better, than the old version.

This is like, as if you would try to make a Skill balancing, but short before you would make it, you say to yourself, why should I balance the old crap, when I can easily implement something new instead, then I can keep the old stuff, like it is, because players will/should use so or so only the new stuff combined with the old to be efficient in the game... >.>
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Best Steps ANet should do in near future: (if they really instead to correct of their old crap concepts to make the game more fun, because that is it, about what games are in the end ONLY)

- Let Ursan Blessing as it is, people have to accept this Skill, how it is and this Skill already got nerfed from being able to use also range,d this Skill has become a pure Melee Skill, that nerfed the Skill already enough.
Anything else would mean a complete reconcept of the whole Skill and that would not fit anymore to the Lore of the Game... because the bear stands for Strength for the Norn, so should Ursan blessing also be the most powerful Elite of all 3 Blessing and the Effect of increased max Hp and Defense to the strogn Attacks fits simple best to this.
All 3 Elites give you a Running Skill, all 3 have an AoE Effect Skill, all 3 have a Condition Skill. All 3 are fine imo.

UB easily changed 2 problems, the game had over very long time, over that peopel QQ'ed in the same way so much, like all those people, whine whine about UB now, that this skill should be unbalanced.
Both had only a difference. Those people, which complained about those 2 problems, before UB existed, those people had a REAL reason for complaining.
Those people, which QQ now about ursan being imba, those are only all those people now, which whine about UB, because this Skill enables much more players to play effectively the Elite Areas, what leads to their so "high valued" seen items becoming over time more and more lesser valuable.
So those people just QQ, because they are greedy, because they will make over time not so much money anymore, than what they did, before UB existed ... but THAT'S LIFE... money is not only parked for hardcore gamers, which were the luckers, that they could farm certain spots effectively first to make the most money out of their loot, before the huge croud of others follows over time, until the place gets overfarmed >.>

UB easily solved as said 2 problems and those were the ever hated "Class Discrimination" , because as ursan its somewhat of regardless, what a Class you play, you just need only soem teddy bears and monks.

The other problem is the ever the same problem about casual gamers and peopel not PuGing, so that you can easily end up, just wastign your time in search for a party in town... UB makes this really simple, you can create with ursanway very easily party, because you simpel have only to search for 2 things and 6 ursans are extreme quick found, once you're 6/8, the last 2 monks are usually quick found too and unless you find none and you do nothign special, like DoA, you can take also 2 hero monks instead with the typical used Duo-HB build, with 6 ursans and 2 monk heroes u can easily vanguish also anything in GW ...

next point
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- Remove all Henchmen-Npc's out of Towns ect. and make out of the Lore Heroes Hero NPC's, because they are from all henchmen the only one,s which are really interesting as heroes. As Lore Hero of factions also counts Nika, NF had no Henchmen, that has anythign of being like a Lore Hero, like Mhenlo, Cynn, Nika and Co., but if I had to say a name, I'd say, make Gehraz, the Dervish the Lore Hero of NF to have a 3rd Derv Hero...woudl be surely interestign as Derv Player with 3 Derv heroes in your party, each one being in a different Avatar Form lol, at least then 4/5 of all avatars in the team then XD by playing with Heroes only
*******

- After that, we will have only Heroes left as "Henchmen", Anet should enable then 7 Hero Parties, so that we can make group builds as we want, without limitations...
*******

- After this step, enable Heroes to use all PvE-only Skills, EXCEPT any of the 3 Elite Blessign Skills of the Norn-Skill Line
*******

- When the step above is done, implement into the game a system, how we players can unlock OUR OWN CHARACTERS on our accounts as Hero NPC's

For example:

A character has to play through all campaigns and EotN on Hard Mode and has to reach "people know me" of KoaBD first. Only when doen this, a character of an account becomes unlocked for general usage as Hero NPC for other characters on the same account.

And before a character will be able to have an other character of the same account as Hero, that character must reach fist Level 20 and has to fulfill some special quests first to become able to invite your accoutn characters into your party as hero NPC's, because your own characters start naturally direct with lvl 20, they are not, like the Standart heroes, which start with beginner equipment and a low level, which need to be trained first to Lvl 20.

So a character, who wants other characters of the ame accoutn as hero npc's, must fit naturaly fist too some conditions and that means being on same level first. (clear, so that people won't start as level 1 charas in proph presering with one lvl 20 MM hero companion)
This would be then the perfect top of the ice berg of perfecness, anet could do about the Hero System.



With these changes, the Hero System would make absolutely most FUN, the only stuff that needs then to be improved still is the whole Control System around Hero NPC's.

We simple need more and better Command options for heroes, like telling them, in which kind of formation they should run, a simple command like "Spread out!!" would help is SOOOOO MANY situations in the game, seeing, how your group will split up then, so that AoE's and other wide spreaded attacks won't hit all, but only as lessest characters, as possible.

or a simple command like "Retreat!!" would help also, lettign all heroes just follow you immetiatle, all heroes stopping immetialy fighting or charging foes ect. maybe with a little speed buff bonus of 10% or so for 2 seconds, so that they reach quick the player and can follow thee player immetiately)

Also build specific commands would be good, like as when you have a trapper in your party, that you can command the trapper, where he has to set traps... so that you can draw on the field then a line or so, where the trapper has everywhere to set traps for you. ANd the trapper wil trap then everywhere at a point system along your drawed line of the field, until he finished his job, or runs out of energy...

The mechanics of commands for heroes need simple to become better, 3 command way is simple to cheap - Attack ,Defend, Do Nothing is simple not enough very often.
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However, to come to an end and to say a final note about the topic:

7 Heroes will be NEVER more powerful, than a PuG team out of 6 Ursans and 2 Monk players.

7 Heroes will be even never more powerful, than a normal european balanced group build PuG, due to the simple fact, that real players react simple much better, cause of a better intelligence. real players can much better react on changes, than npc's with their static builds and real players can fight together with a much better synergy, than npc's will ever due to the fact, that the dumb AI can't play as good many skills out, like players can...

Best Example: the Skill Arcane Echo: while a real player combines this skill EVER with the most effective combination, the dumb AI combines Arcane Echo randomly with all skills in the build >.<, the AI has absolutely no clue about the good skill synergies, like players CAN have.

- Beats me. Major reason for lack of PUGing is the lack of groups for anything other than a few elite areas. When groups form, they suck. Efficiency is not the reason to make a PUG, but it's the reason to ask for 7 heroes. Those who PUG, PUG because of the desired social element, which goes past the outcome of mission. Those who don't PUG do it for effectiveness. 3 or 7 heroes, nothing changes. I don't know what is so hard to understand here.

Uhm, I know my english is not the best and I'm sure, the whole forum knows this in the meanwhiel too , but I've overlooked my last post and I'm personally shocked over myself, how much typos are in it.

Tomorrow I've to edit my posting XD In this posting I can really see, that I#ve posted it in the late night lol *sleepy* zzzzzzzzzzzzz

<dhljsfhkjx.dfnh *ouch that was now my head XD, I've to go to bed ^^

Phoenix tears you win the thread!

Except I would remove the requirements of using your other characters as heroes and allow any character that has finished the campaign be available as a hero in that campaign.

You have honestly described what would be the most awesome game on the face of this planet, its really a shame that there arent any games that allow full party customisation and character creation, except for baldurs gate and icewind dale.

Yeah I pm him for his constructive post as time went into that on. Btw Baldur's Gate and Icewind dale series were great. It's interesting to spot you played these games too.

Baldurs gate 2 = best game ever ever ever... No wait a minute, civilization 2 is

Civ 2 and BG1 were my first ever decent games on the PC after constantly playing shit like aladin, lion king and donald duck lmao.

Addiction followed

Fix'd
Last time I checked Heroes don't have access to PvE-only skills.

I would think it better if many overly effective builds were made less effective, and PvE content changed so that people had to greatly vary their team builds to work through content.
I don't like the idea of the same builds being used everywhere and skill points piling up because people don't need more than a few builds for most of PvE.

I think 3 heroes per player is the farthest it'll go because you need a minimum of 2 people to do. If you only need 1 person to have a hero party, it'll be even more quiet in most outposts.

Why even worry? Guild Wars is a broken game, just get used to it.

Think of how many things are wrong/missing.

7 heroes
Better contorl over those heroes/pets
Any method of selling items besides spam
Guilds with little options
etc, etc

Just get used to it. You really think they are going to change anything? They should have redone number 3 in my list way way before Nightfall or even Factions. Just have to deal with it, I see no change ever.

It's probably why they wanted to make a GW2. Because all the changes and additions they wanted to make weren't going to fit in with what was already part of the game without having to do a serious overhaul.

why is there a thread for this? she didnt say anything...

Riverside for you ^_^

I reckon ANet *might* nerf ursan down to a state where it's still usable to do hm fow/uw but not DoA, seeing as it's actually been a good thing for FoW/UW.

As for 7 heroes, not even ANet are that bad ^_^

Oh dear heavens - I hope they don't take this thread the wrong way so I'll put it bluntly ...
Do NOT nerf Ursan to show us how well we have it with only 4 heroes. Ursan = Sweet!
Thank you!

If you actually think Ursan is a good thing for fow you fail miserably. Ursan is an EXPLOIT for fow that makes it easier on HM then the ascalon missions are on NM. Ursan is a broken exploit. 7 heroes would actually be more balanced then ursan.

GG to anet for making HM fow the easiest cakewalk in the game to an uber hax chest. /Fail.

Took them two years of complaining to change favor.