Gaile's answer concerning the Ursan and 7 heroes imba issue:

4 pages how someone said nothing... I think this deserves a /lock.

I have to disagree:sab's necro's,imbagons,Sy warrior,decent elle nukers
killer team right there.

My apologies if this isn't what you meant, but this is actually quite a change from what I understood Anet's policy to be on seven hero parties.

Best as I can remember, Anet's position on this was no because of the discouragement of team-play and the resources required to implement.

But the above is not saying that. It is saying that they are still tracking this discussion and that they will let us know if they decide to change anything.

I have to say I'm impressed. I really didn't think that all those people constantly asking for full hero parties were ever going to get anywhere.

I don't understand keep failing to understand that when people talk about 7 heroes being overpowered they mean in terms of what a single human player can do.

Obviously there is supposed to be a benefit to playing with others in a multi-player game. They want people to play together. UB, whatever else you want to say about it, certainly has more people playing with other people in the game.

ArenaNet's position can change at any time.

And you cant already do that with a team of players?


Besides that heroes cant use PvE skills, so no imbagons or SY warriors. A human team would still be much more powerful.

Heroes can't use PvE-only skills.
Nuking is redundant in HM, armour-ignoring damage = win.

And the true strong part of Sabway, lies in Soul Reaping, because things die fast in PvE.
If Soul Reaping dies, Sabway dies.

Yes, its been said a thousand times, but it would be overpowered.

YES! 8 ursans are overpowered,
and YES! You can just throw together the build you would on hero's on too humans and steamroll even easier, but I think you guys are forgetting the whole idea behind hero's here: People use hero's because they dont want to play with people; playing 8 decent builds or ursanway requires people.

Both of these, ursanway and 8 humans, ARE both already overpowered. But in order for it to be overpowered, it has to be actually used by people. These two overpowered "builds" (they really arent builds) are kept in check by the fact that you need people; heroway you can just slap em' together and go, and, even though three its not really as powerful/effective as the other two, its more than enough too get through the majority of PvE. Thats why you see ursan/human groups in the higher-end pve places.

Its simple; Although 7 hero's still wouldnt be able to beat human/ursanway, its enough to take any high end area in PvE. And because of that, anyone can just get there and slap the stuff together and do a HM DoA run with 0 preparation time, while a human/ursan would take half hour/hour to organize.
The consequences of farming such areas so easily are pretty obvious.

Are you serious or is my sarcasm detector broken today ?

You have 8 people in my party, I have 8 people in my party. Except that 7 out of 8 people in my party are controlled by AI. Your example fails, if you want to talk "in terms of what a single human player can do" then talk about solo farmers because I'm running a full party.


Obviously? Maybe you didn't get the memo, but GW WAS and still IS advertised as a game where you can play with AI, instead of humans. If they wanted people to play together, there'd never be henchmen.

2 paragons and you win PvE.

How does my example fail? Because you don't know the difference between a live person and AI?

Yes "obviously." It's a multi-player game. They need people to play together to make it a multi-player game. One way to do that is to make the game easier/more fun with more people. If you think that the existence of AI means they don't care if people play with other humans, then I don't think you understand how multi-player games work. People mostly play them to play with other people. If they can't find others to play with, most of them will move on to other games.

People are really butt sore about the stupidest things.

I can't play because the game is not exactly how I want it. Since when was it ever that way? Get over yourselves.

IMO 7 heroes would kill the drive for others to game with others. Why not just go play FF1?

Leave that to the people that want to play with 7 heroes once they are implemented. I rarely micro-manage them, don't need to with the right build, just as you don't need to micro the henchies.

It fails because you don't see the difference between "single human" and "single human with 7 companions controlled by AI"

Yes, OBVIOUSLY GW was made for people who wanted to play a multiplayer game without other people. Shocking, eh? Of course, there were many quotes from the GW box saying you CAN play with people but also YOU can play with AI. If you have a quote that says that they want people to group, not to play with AI, please, enlighten us. Next time buy the game yourself and know what you're buying.

Oh, and for the record, you're so god damn naive if you think that not giving us 7 heroes will somehow make us pug. I'd rather take 3 heroes and 4 henchies than PUG with someone who's not in my guild or alliance. There's a good chance that you'll turn out to be just another "THIS IS SPARTA!!!1" Wammo who aggroes everything in the area. My heroes don't do that. Neither do henchies.

I lol'ed.

(You know .. it's what Obama actually does say that worries me the most. History has shown time and time again the socialism is far inferior to the free market in creating economic prosperity, yet Obama and his type somehow never seem to get it...)

But back on topic ... Anet for some reason feels the need to nudge the game towards PuGs and social play .. and both Ursanway and 3-hero-restriction accomplish this. I don't know why they feel the game should be this way, but it's their game and clearly that is the decision they have made.

To add to that, I'd rather go with henchies (and no heroes) then PuG with someone who's only interest in the PuG is as a means of completing missions and quests.

A perspective on why seven heroes would be really nice which I think hasn't been brought up before yet quite like this:

I'm a casual player. Not a very good one either. I simply lack the time to become very good through experience (which is why I chose GuildWars to play: it's a game for casual players, right?). Same as I lack the time to play with humans. I might have to leave the computer at any time, and that's just not fair to any pug.
I'm currently three (two? I can't quite recall what the count was last) missions away from the end of Nightfall, and I find I'm very limited in my choice of heroes to bring. That is, if I don't bring a certain three heroes, I die. Painfully. (With those three heroes, I still die, but only through stupidity, not through simply being vastly underpowered.) I don't know how to play effectively with most other heroes (and probably am completely incapable of playing effectively with those other heroes, because they lack the right skills). But that sucks, because I don't actually like these three heroes all that much. I'd vastly prefer to bring Melonni and Koss. They make me smile so much.
I see heroes like armor and weapons. Something to accessorize with. Something to give the game the look and feel that I care for. Seven heroes would allow me to both bring my favorite hero accessories, and to stay alive.

Yes, I could download some cookie cutter builds from guildwiki for me and my heroes and steamroll my way through the game. But I don't want to - that's not a game I care to play. I want to fumble my way through on my own and feel a sense of accomplishment at the end - but at the same time I also want to sightsee and laugh at the hero interaction and random lines they toss out and just have a good time. Seven heroes would make this a whole lot more attainable, and probably make me play a wee bit more often than I do nowadays.

Let me get this straight...

GWs team play sucked so much that solo options need to be gimped in order for people to group. What gives?


Epic phail.

The "Multiplayer" tag doesn't magically create human teammates for your team to do what you want, when you want.

No one likes to chill in a dead town for hours LFG.

Yandawar, i dont see how playing with seven heroes is NOT steamrolling your way through the game.

Also you dont know how to play with the other heroes, whats having more heroes going to do for you but be more of a liability?

If you want to get better and learn the game and accomplish something, then play the game.

What good is a hero ele if you dont know how to play as an ele in the first place for example?

You dont wanna use Guild wiki but you want a crutch using 7 heroes? Thats very hypocritical.

Make me smile? Be the accessories that I care about?
Koss and Melonni have a story. They have background. I care for them. They're marginally more effective in my hands than Gehraz and Devona, but if effectiveness was my goal, I'd go for the cookie cutter builds.
As long as I can stay alive and wrestle my way through to completing a mission every so often, I don't need to be more effective. And I'm at that point.
The problem is, I'm at that point in a way which doesn't give me very much at all of the fun which is the reason I play this game.

Seven heroes would have a lot of benefits, which have all been hashed out before. I'm pointing out that for players like me, it would have an additional benefit, namely enhancing the fun I have in this game by allowing me to play with the heroes I care about, rather than solely the heroes I need to stay alive. I'm hoping pointing that out might be the proverbial drop to sway Anet's opinion and actually give us those seven heroes.

Cool looks and a background story?

Remember: casual player. We're very shallow in what we care about.

What I really don't understand is why people are so against 7 heroes because it will stop people pugging, when we already have the option to fill our bars with henches... :S If we didn't have that option I'd say yes guys, you have a point, but given that we at no point need to add real players to play through this game, not allowing 7 heroes is really just being stubborn to a decision they made too early.

It gives a reason for those that want seven heroes to post in a new, shiny thread, when almost everything that needs to be said about the topic is already here...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10201532

I'd summarize what the arguments in that thread are pretty concisely, but that would simply perpetuate the arguments pro/con 7 heroes in this thread as well.

I see them nerfing UB from -2 energy degen, to -4 energy degen. Just to shut people up.

I'm glad the thread was added. Even if Gaile's answer is patently ambiguous, at least it gives those of us that want 7 heroes a slim hope since this issue is on their radar, and she didn't give a flat out "no".

And just to re-add my opinion (posted a few times in that other thread):

My real life schedule gives me small blocks of time for gaming. Therefore I'm AFK a lot during quests/missions. To avoid being rude, I rarely PUG. I'm almost exclusively a H/H player. Therefore whether we have 3 heroes or 7 heroes, I will still be a H/H player. 7 heroes would increase my enjoyment of the game though, and therefore I'm in support of the idea.

Read every single page and no one has yet to put up a single argument against seven hero or usran other then whine, whine, whine, I want to play with other people. If you want to play with other people then join a guild that does pve and organizes outings.

I have tried Ursan once, didn't like it because it takes something away that I enjoy, trying my own builds out to see how they worked. But guess what if you don't like Ursan there is a simple answer - don't join that group.

I haven't joined a pug since prophecies and stop doing that halfway through the southern shiverpeaks but due to a desire to get a celestial compass joined two pug groups for UW Clear - first one was none ursan and three left before the first 20 minutes was up, went on to finish three more quest but then two more left. Second group was an ursan group and one person killed the whole thing by taking every quest that showed up. Both are prime examples of why you should never pug; Away from keyboards and people that don’t understand how the missions work.

Until they start changing henchmen builds to be more effective after pvp updates then henchmen will always be a second to last choice. Last choice is to pug.

A half-hour to organize Ursanway? Unlikely. As of right now it's currently the quickest and easiest build to set-up in the game: six people with Ursan Blessing on their bar and two monks, then gg. Don't forget that Heroes aren't without their consequences. They may be smart to a degree, but they only use about 1/3 of skills and builds properly. You can't just give them any build, you have to set them up with something their AI can handle.

I think he was clear: HE wants to take some heroes for fun and some other in order to make sure he can actually play. That has little to do with steamrolling throught game, i guess he is of breed of people who would take henchmen over hero anyday if they liked that hench.

He is not playing to get better at pwning ai or to accomphis stuff, he is just enjoying himself.

I know that this is currently foreign to lots of people when title hunt it at rage, but point of playing GW is fun.

Why do you need 7 heroes? 3 is good enough. Anet allowed only 3 heroes so you don't run a chain pve team and also experiment with more than just dunkoro/zhed/olias...livia/olias/MoW

Instead, blame yourselves for not varying your heroes from time to time.

Thanks for getting what I was saying.
And yes, I frequently take along Sogolon because of this. He has all the best lines, and is way humble to boot! ^_^ I suspect that if we had seven heroes, I'd still play six heroes and one hench because of him.

There is another argument that hasn't be used:

soon, gw2 will be out. Then how will you EVER find a pug? Everybody is now playing gw 2, Let's say you want to play gw again so you have fill your hall of monument. What will you do? Watching henchies dying?

And casual players don't have time to wait 2hours in an outpost to get a whole team.

Beside that, if you use a hero, you will have to learn how to skill it. If you don't like to learn it, use henchies, but don't use heros.

My opinions on 7 heroes and Ursan Blessing

1. Ursan = Ridiculously overpowered and game destroying in that elite areas that were originally designed to be difficult (Elite) are made very simple and easy. Anyone with 2 hemispheres can see this. A HUGE hundred bladed nerfbat needs to be used on Ursan Blessing as soon as humanly possible.

2. 7 Heroes = I am neither for or against this proposal. But ask yourself this. Will it have the same or a similar effect that Ursan has had in that it makes the game infinitely easier? Will it further reduce the multiplayer aspect, less instances of humans grouping together to play? If not then I dont see why we cant have 7 heroes. If it does either of these 2 things then its a very bad idea.

How do 7 heroes suddenly stop people wanting to PUG but 3 don't? If people have been using 3 heroes and hench, they're obviously better than a random group of 4 warriors, 3 monks and a minion master.

I think there's more to it than just that

Now I'm not "for" having 7 hero's. I've managed the game just fine with 3 hero's and 4 hench when applicable. If it stays at 3He+4H to the end of time it wouldn't matter one bit to me. However, I'm also not exactly against the idea either.

Just with the introduction alone of Hero's, I find it hard to believe that the makers of the game didn't realize they were somewhat making their henchmen a little obsolete. I can remember just starting Guild Wars with proph, making it all the way to Riverside with hench only, over the course of a few months. That was the first mission in which I felt like Hench alone would never get this done. I ended up Pugging it, which was fine, but I still wondered why the hench felt so weak all of the sudden.

I can't imagine myself only henching the Ascension missions. I'm sure others could do it, but I know I couldn't.

Yes, they still help, they can still get the job done, but they're missing the toughness and control (runes, weapon choices, manipulated builds, flagging, etc) you get with heros.

I wonder if any statement has been made, or idea given, that perhaps Henchmen need to be buffed up some.

Anyways, back on point (I know I ramble sometimes, or all the time). I'm also not totally against 7 heroes due to the fact we have 20+. Now I do mix mine up, a lot, but it's still a bit hard to mix and match 20+ heroes in 3 slots; especially for some of us who don't have the funds to rune and weapons equip all of them :P (Although I do have 90% of them all beefed up).


Not sure if there's much of a question that 7 Heroes would certainly make PvE a ton easier than it already is, or that people will "Breeze through the game". But let's face it; People already breeze through the game with runs - whether those runs are to a place, or a mission itself.

If 7 heroes came, I know I'd still PuG when I have the time. I'd still do things with my guildies, I'd still tag-a-long with random people just doing odds'n'ends questing.

Sure, I can see how the abiltiy of adding 7 heroes would be quite nice in certain circumstances and I often wonder why it hasn't been done already, especially with so many heroes made available. However, I'm not totally advocating for 7 heroes to be put in.

If it ever does, I'd be fine with it. If it doesn't, I'm fine with that too. It's no more of a breeze than paying someone 500g to do a mission.

I already enjoy what I can do as it stands right now and I enjoy the challenges I'm currently working on. It's why I'll stand right on the fence with this issue.

Personally I prefer Herta. Aka HURTA. She's hilarious.

You're reminding me of Final Fantasy 6 where certain characters say different things depending on who you have in the party, as such, its fun trying different combos to see what they say.

However the main storylines of the heroes occurs in cinemas and quests (with mandatory heroes), and rarely in the actual gameplay. Theres no actual changes to the battle chatter since the heroes dont interact with each other.

The critical flaw of nightfall is actually that, we HAVE to have have heroes in certain levels. We cant just beat certain quests or missions and see stuff, we HAVE to bring heroes along. What if I wanna do the quest with people? Thats one more slot that I can't have. This was fixed in EoTN thankfully.

With me, i prefer playing with the heroes I like, since the game's difficulty doesn't really stop players from beating it with just henchmen, I can get away with bringing 3 rangers or whatever.

I used to be against 7 heros.. now I'm all for! I loaded up all my heros with runes and weapons, I want to use them all now and no longer have to rely on incompetent people who leave 1/2 through.

I used to be against Ursan.. and still am! I wish it was nerfed to hell. Make Ursan (at max rank) +10 armor, +100hp and increase recharge on all the skills. Furthermore, make it so Ursan skills don't work with LB or other similar titles.

So you're saying that they should nerf ursan - one of the only reasons people are willing to play with each other, as heroes can't equip the skill. While not allowing 7 heroes because that would reduce the amount of people playing together?

Ursan is the only reason I (and pretty much everyone else I know) tolerate pvers.
o ok.

She said nothing to answer the question.

So this is a(n other) thread about ............................... nothing!

I said I'm neither for or against 7 hero parties if it has no detrimental impact on gameplay.

My point with regards to Ursan was that Elite areas are supposed to be hard and not ridiculously easy, thats why it needs a nerf. As for your inability to tolerate pvers without Ursan, thats a personal problem that you need to sort out yourself, not one that can be fixed with a game update. Might I suggest therapy?

Whoa! Nothing to do with the thread but i have to say this:

OUCH!

One thing i really enjoy is a response that disables an type answer until the next thread, and that was an Elite one.

You, sir, are a Mesmer.


adding something to the topic: Ursans are bad, heros are cool... yay!

I don't wanna be rude or anything but that looks like the subjects are beeing avoided. I know there are alot of things beeing done at Anet but i think alot of people would like a answer and nada just doesn't cut it. And sry for that because you are my most favourite person that has something to do with GW.