Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells.
Tada. Problem solved. Minion Masters now have corpse-exploitation synergy restored. Energy returns become much more stable and consistent, and no one else can fuel off of a MM in the party.
Best of all the atrocious timer is removed!
spirits havent triggered soul reaping for a long time
Quote:
Update - Tuesday, November 13, 2007:Necromancer
* Soul Reaping: no longer gains any benefit from Spirits.
13 Apr 2008 at 23:34 - 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
/draws deep breath
Soul Reaping is broken.
It's underpowered for MM builds and overpowered for everything else. Why does that matter? Because Soul Reaping was designed and built to power MM builds. That's what it's for. Period.
It's broken, plain and simple.
Sabway is a great example. It takes a page out of PvP SR exploitation by powering BOTH an SS necro AND a healer off of minion triggers. That's the same exact thing that got it in trouble in PvP. A necro would create and then destroy a minion and ALL necros on his team would get the SR trigger. That's broken...and that's what led to the timer....which actually further breaks SR.
Most PvE AND PvP players don't want to face that, because they LIKE exploiting that mechanic. But that's where the problem lies. Here is the correct solution, that solves ALL problems and leave NO room for exploitation:
Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells.
Tada. Problem solved. Minion Masters now have corpse-exploitation synergy restored. Energy returns become much more stable and consistent, and no one else can fuel off of a MM in the party.
Best of all the atrocious timer is removed!
that still will not fix the problem that soul reaping faces in competitive pvp. as long as soul reaping remain a passive energy management mechanic, where-as something must die before you see any rate of return, then it will never be viable in high-end pvp.
Jayce Of Underworld
13 Apr 2008 at 23:46 - 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood
thats like saying necros have no other purpose
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I am explicitly saying that SR was intended to fuel MM builds. And I'm right. Most Blood and Curses necros get angry at that, but it's true. The entire design and mechanics of SR screams MM. It has no synergy with Blood/Curses at all, but SR and Death go together like bread and butter.
SR is a PvE attribute in a balanced PvP game. That's the problem. It's a good mechanic, but it fundamentally doesn't belong in GW. My suggestion for changing it specifically attempts to close the ways it can be exploited while maintaining its core purpose. It's as good as can be done without removing SR entirely and starting over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood
i dunno about you or anyone else but my 12+1 SR runed armor doesnt complain gaining 13 energy per death 3 times in 15 seconds
If your running anything but minions, that's true. If you're running minions, it isn't. When a corpse appears, SR should trigger. Every.Single.Time. When corpses appear and SR doesn't trigger, that's broken. When SR triggers and there are no corpses available, that's broken.
The amount of energy returned is irrevelant, utterly, if I can't spend it.
EDIT:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jayce
that still will not fix the problem that soul reaping faces in competitive pvp. as long as soul reaping remain a passive energy management mechanic, where-as something must die before you see any rate of return, then it will never be viable in high-end pvp.
Nothing short of deleting SR and starting over will fix that. And I don't care about that issue anyway. It's a fundamental design flaw, it's too late to correct. My solution solves the exploitation issues however, and allows it to fulfill it's intended purpose as best as possible.
14 Apr 2008 at 00:50 - 44
April 05 Prophecies released
April 06 Factions released
June 06 "Soul Reaping now only gives half Energy from Spirits."
April 07 "Soul Reaping: functionality changed so that you may only gain Energy from Soul Reaping every 5 seconds."
June 07 "Soul Reaping states it will only trigger three times per fifteen seconds and that only spirits you control will trigger Soul Reaping, but spirits no longer give only half energy."
8 days later
"Soul Reaping: Energy gain now triggers 3 times every 15 seconds (if you are already at maximum Energy when something dies, it does not count toward this limit). You now gain full Energy when a Spirit you control dies; you gain no Energy when other Spirits die."
Nightfall released
November 07 "Soul Reaping: no longer gains any benefit from Spirits."
old sr:specced at 9sr 9 deaths returns a definate 81 energy
current:specced at 9sr 9 deaths within 15 seconds will return a net 27 energy
looking at maths,its a huge kick in the proverbial nuts
the current and i quote "broken" state of soul reaping hasnt happened overnight,forcing a build directory clear-out.its taken its time over the years to become what it now is.im sure influenced by abuse in certain areas not excluding pve on any level.at the end of the day we've all abused it somehow,wether it be sabway or necro bombing pvp to power hybrid necro monks or such
there are 2 facts that stand out here:
soul reaping abuse brought the necromancers so-called demise (read soul reaping nerf) upon the class (we cant blame monks or any other profession,ooh how i hate them,sitting in the corner drinking tea,looking innocent...(ok back on track)
soul reaping is not imbalanced "broken" itself,its the players/posters.some like myself are more than happy playing the game as is with friends and succeeding.others just seem to want what was taken off us due to abuse and spend time QQing about it rather than playing what is still a totally viable,usefull and successful profession
/endrant
14 Apr 2008 at 00:59 - 45
The idea was flawed to begin with. Something dies, get energy. Sounds like a good idea, until you can spam 25 en spells without any form of e-management other than SR. I believe that was imbalanced. Now you can't spam 25 en spells, but as long as you have minions and there are corpses, you get enough energy to power out 5-10 en spells endlessly. Not my idea of balance. Remove sr triggering off minions, and that'll remove the exploitation, then we can remove the time limit.
14 Apr 2008 at 01:24 - 46
Soul reaping in pvp either falls into two categories: A useless buff to an already winning team or a gimmicky way to get infinite energy. It really just wasn't a good idea in the first place. In a non-gimmick based build, SR is completely useless in any kind of stalemate situation. The only time it is useful is when you are already winning (enemies dieing) or you are losing (your team dieing). The first is an unneeded buff for a winning team, the second is planning for failure.
To make SR an attribute that isn't trash for PvP, there has to be some semi-reliable but non-abusable way to trigger it, or it needs to be given more SR skills that a build can be based upon.
As for PvE, I wouldn't say SR is really overpowered. In my opinion it performs the same function for necros as Eternal Aura does Dervishes: It lets the party move on quickly to the next group instead of waiting half a minute to become battle ready again. Any decent team should be going through enemies quickly and efficiently enough that a necro could survive a single battle without SR bonuses, its just letting you recharge for the next fight quicker. Exceptions given of course to MM necros, who require that SR energy to have any hope of having more then 2 bone fiends.
14 Apr 2008 at 02:15 - 47
1. There's no such thing as "balance" in PvE. See Ursan.
2. If we're really concerned about fixing SR for PvE, Carinae's is the right way to do it:Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells -- and we're talking 5e and 10e skills, maybe, maybe, maybe 15e for bone fiend.
3. Fixing SR for PvP is going to require a complete rework. The best suggestion I've heard so far is "nexpertise" -- a death triggers a X% reduction in necro skill (or possibly all skill) costs for Y sec. Not that I'm sure that's going to solve all the problems, but its an example of how total a reworking it would need.
14 Apr 2008 at 03:20 - 48
The general guildwars pve community is busy stomping through HM on autopilot using a build thats based on exploiting the over-the-top-unstopable-energy-machine nature of SR and there are still people around that think SR is underpowered? I'm astounded.
For those suggesting it removing SR from minions does not do enough to justify removing the timer. The 3 kills/15secs limit is already overloaded from monster deaths meaning that minion SR is not a factor. The only change that could justify removal of the SR timer is to change it to a regen based system where SR ranks add to duration, not to volume.
14 Apr 2008 at 03:54 - 49
You're not seeing the big picture. Removing SR from minions breaks Sabway utterly. It breaks Jaggedway, and Spirit Spam (yea, yea those are already fixed, albiet clunkily)
No, regen doesn't work for a MM. It has to be straight energy returns, because those stack immediately. The energy is then immediately re-invested in more minions. No one cares at all if SR generated 4000e/sec as long as it's folded back into minions. It's ONLY when that energy starts powering heals/hexes/etc that it becomes an issue.
The "broken" parts of SR are the timer and the 'sharing'. Energy without corpses is bad. Corpses without energy is bad. Fueling off of another player is an exploit.
14 Apr 2008 at 04:40 - 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
You're not seeing the big picture. Removing SR from minions breaks Sabway utterly. It breaks Jaggedway, and Spirit Spam (yea, yea those are already fixed, albiet clunkily)
But it doesn't. The N/Rt healer and the SS nec still function perfectly without the Minionbomber because the SR cap is already maxed out by monster deaths before minions are even factored in. You can replace the minionbomber with any generic nuker and romp through ooze or oolas lab with similar ease - the funionality you lose is not the energy, its the body blocking.
14 Apr 2008 at 05:10 - 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
From a PvP (GvG) perspective, SR is extremely conditional. The only true deaths come from spikes, and rarely pressure.
Which there isn't usually a death until around 2 minutes in from the start becasue the Monks need to be weakened in terms of energy, and your primary attribute is mainly a waste until that point.
I was actually referring to a comparison between SR and other passive e-management primaries/other primaries PLUS the comparison between SR and e-management skills IN PvE!
Not SR in PvP.
And it should be REALLY trashed based on that.
14 Apr 2008 at 05:20 - 52
IMO the original whiners about SR nerfs were people who have never played anything but necro, because if they did they would realize just how much power SR is giving them. SR was and still is ( but to a lesser extent ) a huge energy boon compared to other classes.
It would be awesome if Anet had a button that could turn any Necro that complains about SR nerfing into a mesmer for 24 hours.
14 Apr 2008 at 06:09 - 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellardweller
But it doesn't. The N/Rt healer and the SS nec still function perfectly without the Minionbomber because the SR cap is already maxed out by monster deaths before minions are even factored in. You can replace the minionbomber with any generic nuker and romp through ooze or oolas lab with similar ease - the funionality you lose is not the energy, its the body blocking.
Well, I know what you mean, but there is no other alternative. Regen boost won't work on a MM...maybe, maybe if minion costs were reduce like I suggested, but DEFINATELY NOT if you don't reduce the costs. You'd still need to stack regen somehow to cover multiple quick deaths, either stack in pips or in duration.
Do you really think most people kill at that rate? I don't think they do. Experienced ones do, sure. But the MB in Sabway covers people who don't. It's like a battery.
14 Apr 2008 at 06:15 - 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Do you really think most people kill at that rate? I don't think they do. Experienced ones do, sure. But the MB in Sabway covers people who don't. It's like a battery.
So PvE should be balanced on bad players?
14 Apr 2008 at 06:26 - 55
PvE isn't balanced at all. And in PvP returns like that aren't possible.
My primary focus is in restoring the corpse-exploitation synergy by eliminating the timer. It can be done without opening PvP exploits. Further improvements to SR simply can't be done without a total redesign, including revamping the entire Death line, and I don't see that happening at this point.
As I said, my suggestion solves the PvP exploit potential and restores corpse-exploitation synergy as best as is possible with the current design. The timer is an atrocity.
14 Apr 2008 at 07:27 - 56
But this thread shows that people are fine with the timer...?
14 Apr 2008 at 07:46 - 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
So PvE should be balanced on bad players?
PvE cannot and will never be ballanced. It's funny how you complain about SR when there are things like Ursan, SY, PI, etc around. sigh
14 Apr 2008 at 08:27 - 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
PvE cannot and will never be ballanced. It's funny how you complain about SR when there are things like Ursan, SY, PI, etc around. sigh
You missed the point of this thread ... 
And I disagree on your view that PvE cannot be balanced.
Something like FoW showed us a version of PvE that is looking VERY promising!
14 Apr 2008 at 10:34 - 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
Something like FoW showed us a version of PvE that is looking VERY promising!
you mean the FoW that Ursan teams troll through with no problem, and the FoW that coordinated physical teams can steamroll in less than an hour?
anyway, on topic: SR is in no way underpowered in PvE. at the moment, it's clumsy as hell, with the timer and restrictions and whatnot, but it's still a powerful source of unlimited energy on multiple players.
14 Apr 2008 at 11:48 - 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
You missed the point of this thread ...
And I disagree on your view that PvE cannot be balanced.
Something like FoW showed us a version of PvE that is looking VERY promising!
I missed the point? Your point is that you "think" SR is overpowered while the truth is that it isn't op compared to all those bullcrap skills we have around.
And ofcourse pve cannot be ballanced because people will always find skill combinations to abuse game mechanics, and WTF has fow to do with balance? LOL I guess you do not understand what you're talkin about, and just made a thread to troll around.
14 Apr 2008 at 13:34 - 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy Taco
you mean the FoW that Ursan teams troll through with no problem, and the FoW that coordinated physical teams can steamroll in less than an hour?
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No I mean the fact that it's an end-game area where the foes don't rely on insanely high levels, double damage or other silly exploits but we instead see some nice game design in the form of ambushes, patrols and quite decent teams - in terms of single party member builds and also team builds compared to something as broken to what we have started seeing after the release of Factions.
Sure it's insanely easy now - but it's actually a place where one might be able to learn something about the game compared to insta-kill scenarios that took over PvE later.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Washi
I missed the point? Your point is that you "think" SR is overpowered while the truth is that it isn't op compared to all those bullcrap skills we have around.
And ofcourse pve cannot be ballanced because people will always find skill combinations to abuse game mechanics, and WTF has fow to do with balance? LOL I guess you do not understand what you're talkin about, and just made a thread to troll around.
Nope, sorry.
I know that SR is overpowered in PvE. And the fact that we have other mechanics that are equally (or even more) broken - doesn't change that for a bit.
My point - and which I feel was nicely shown - is that balance means something different to PvE players then it does to PvP players.
While this is not ours, the PvE player's fault, the fact remains that the viable understanding of the game balance is closer to the PvP player's understanding of balance.
And no, PvE could be balanced - but it should be a process started before the release of GW AND then a process kept alive during the game's lifetime!
A.Net should balance the skills for PvP - but balance PvE for the new skills.
That way we'd obtain balance in PvE plus also remove some of the current stiffness.
Of course this will never happen because it takes too much work (especially now - after 3 years of doing pretty much nothing about it!) - but it could be done. So I just hope they learn their lesson for GW2.
So yeah, you did miss the point of this thread. But then again - it was more of an experiment to show my point to MV.
14 Apr 2008 at 13:48 - 62
I don't think PvE can ever really be 'balanced'. The reason being that all enemies have static builds. The way guild wars is designed, if you know the build your enemies are using there will always be 1 or 2 builds that excel at destroying those enemies. Right now, 95% of the difficulty in PvE is solved by asking someone for a build template. There is very little skill involved in the actual playing. PvE isn't balanced, if the enemies had balanced groups and a half decent intelligence they would wipe the floor with us considering all the bonuses they get. Instead, the enemies are generally all gimmick teams and PvE forces you to run the counter-gimmick to succeed.
14 Apr 2008 at 15:33 - 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
But this thread shows that people are fine with the timer...?
Just to be clear, no, I am not OK with the timer, and I never will be.
Insofar as this thread is a roundabout way of trying to get people to go on record as accepting the timer, its a bit of dishonest bullshit.
14 Apr 2008 at 15:34 - 64
No. Leave it be.
14 Apr 2008 at 17:33 - 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
Just to be clear, no, I am not OK with the timer, and I never will be.
Insofar as this thread is a roundabout way of trying to get people to go on record as accepting the timer, its a bit of dishonest bullshit.
I think everyone will agree that SR needed to be nerfed and that the timer just wasn't a good method of doing it, seeing as it rewards people who kill slower. At least Anet changed it from the 1 death every 5 seconds to 3 deaths every 15 seconds, which isn't horribly constricting but still just an arbitrary time limit on energy gain.
Since right now the timer limit only really affects PvE play, we can be pretty sure that Anet isn't going to invest a large amount of time to revamp all necro skills and come up with a new soul reaping mechanism that works in both PvE and PvP, so we just have to live with it.
14 Apr 2008 at 17:41 - 66
Sr isnt overpowered, its not underpowered. its fine. not better than what it was but its more 'balanced' and does its job perfectly well.
14 Apr 2008 at 21:19 - 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
My point - and which I feel was nicely shown - is that balance means something different to PvE players then it does to PvP players.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by upier
While this is not ours, the PvE player's fault, the fact remains that the viable understanding of the game balance is closer to the PvP player's understanding of balance.
See, now there you're assigning 'fault'. Balance means something totally different in PvE than it does in PvP. We play football, they play chess. There is no 'fault', there are just different playing conditions. Because of that, we request adjustments that sometimes would throw PvP into chaos. Sometimes they request adjustments that throw PvE for a loop. What bothers me is the assumption that they are wiser than we are, that they know more, and especially that EVERYTHING caters to them and we are an afterthought, at best. There IS room to meet both player types, some compromise can be reached that makes most people happy. But no effort is ever made to reach compromise, a happy medium.
14 Apr 2008 at 22:11 - 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Sometimes they request adjustments that throw farming for a loop.
Fixed. When it comes to just playing PvE players can get away with a lot. Especially terrible skillbars, Rebirth tactics, whatever. It all still allows players of any skill level to succeed in PvE if we define succeeding in PvE as completing a set of tasks. Tasks can be defined as completing a mission, capping a skill, getting a title, etc.
There have been mechanic changes put into place for the sake of PvP balance this is true. But has anything drastically changed in PvE besides farming?
14 Apr 2008 at 23:17 - 69
Nope, not really Racthoh 
If I can take one of ths SoF random deck generator outputs and make a *not as bad as I could've put together* build to vanquish an area then I think that pretty much proves it. Heh.
14 Apr 2008 at 23:26 - 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
There have been mechanic changes put into place for the sake of PvP balance this is true. But has anything drastically changed in PvE besides farming?
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Soul Reaping. I understand what you mean, and I agree. There are almost always multiple ways to achieve a task in PvE, where as in PvP a single overpowered mechanic always requires everyone to adopt that strategy to win, and that's bad. No argument.
However, there would be a lot of unhappy people if Anet added an 'Adrenaline Timer', including you. A Primary Attribute that works some of the time is broken. Period. Could you adapt? Probably, but that doesn't really alleviate any frustration when you can see the REASON for the change and you can also see alternative solutions that solve the same problem with less impact on your part of the game.
Is there an imperative need to balance the skillset/mechanics around high-end PvP? Yes, absolutely.
YES, ABSOLUTELY.
But that doesn't absolve Anet from trying to minimize the impact on everyone else. And yet there is no effort at all to do this. There seems to be a consistent behavior on their part to pretend PvE doesn't even exist. If I can come up with a solution to the excessive SR returns that solves the problem on BOTH sides, then Izzy can as well. He gets paid to do that. They can at least indicate why it is necessary to solve the problem in this particular manner.
The SR Timer clearly breaks the synergy between Death and SR. It's not about the amount of energy returned. It's the fact that energy without corpses is broken, and corpses without energy is broken. When something breaks in PvP they fix it the same day. When they break something in PvE it goes for months and months, even indefinately. They just don't care. It's not that their priority is PvP, they just don't care about PvE at all. It might as well not exist.
As I indicated above, there are different objectives for each format of play. Recognize the specific nature of the problem, in both sides of the game, and try to tailor a solution that works for both sides. If they needed to add the timer as a stopgap to preserve PvP balance while they researched a better solution for both sides, then fine. I can accept that. Do you think that's the case? I don't. I think the timer is here to stay, because it solves the problem in the only area of the game that they care about.
15 Apr 2008 at 00:41 - 71
Having thought more though, there is *one* thing in non-farming pve where it (SR timer) actually makes a difference. When I play MM (granted infrequently as heroes are just better...plus I hate to play them) the energy spike from a death *used* to tell me to hurry and use a corpse. If there's red dots which use corpses, then using them first always helps your team win, the red dots waste energy, etc. Perhaps if there was a 0 energy ping for then?
15 Apr 2008 at 01:26 - 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
The SR Timer clearly breaks the synergy between Death and SR. It's not about the amount of energy returned. It's the fact that energy without corpses is broken, and corpses without energy is broken. When something breaks in PvP they fix it the same day. When they break something in PvE it goes for months and months, even indefinately. They just don't care. It's not that their priority is PvP, they just don't care about PvE at all. It might as well not exist.
is your problem with arena net or the timer? its hard to tell
it CANNOT be broken in any way when necromancers are the sole class within the game that receive ANY benefit from a dying foe in terms of direct energy gain without use of skills.every other class has to rely on other means of energy gain or cutting the energy costs of skills.soul reaping and necros are still as viable and powerfull abeit with a little 15 sec wait
anet handled the changes to soul reaping like kids using swear words.kid has 10 toys and swears 5 times losing a toy each time,youd think by now the kid would stop but no,kid carries on swearing until it has one toy left thats supposedly broken
the only true fact about this entire thread is that soul reaping was abused to the point by the class across pve and pvp that it brought the changes upon itself,we cannot blame any build,any one or anet
15 Apr 2008 at 01:39 - 73
Soul Reaping is perfectly fine as it is! yes I play my Necro and I play him a lot, and he doesnt have any energy issues...
as for balance, what PvE needs is mobs to have 8 skills not just 2-6 and perhaps 2-3 different BALANCED skill bars with different elites for each type of monster. and each monster spawns with a random skill bar so you can have 2 heket warriors with different skill bars.
that way the only thing you can still abuse is the dumb AI that has rather crappy target choice and even crappier target changing mechanics. also the whole pulling concept will still be bugged. but than PvE players do need something to their advantage as mobs are usually a lot more than the party and mostly at a higher lvl too!
15 Apr 2008 at 01:59 - 74
Soul Raping is fine as it is
15 Apr 2008 at 06:59 - 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
See, now there you're assigning 'fault'. Balance means something totally different in PvE than it does in PvP. We play football, they play chess. There is no 'fault', there are just different playing conditions.
So what you are saying is that football players know the chess rules by default?
That's my issue.
There is no fault here - just a simple observation.
15 Apr 2008 at 07:34 - 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by zling
Soul Reaping is perfectly fine as it is! yes I play my Necro and I play him a lot, and he doesnt have any energy issues...
as for balance, what PvE needs is mobs to have 8 skills not just 2-6 and perhaps 2-3 different BALANCED skill bars with different elites for each type of monster. and each monster spawns with a random skill bar so you can have 2 heket warriors with different skill bars.
that way the only thing you can still abuse is the dumb AI that has rather crappy target choice and even crappier target changing mechanics. also the whole pulling concept will still be bugged. but than PvE players do need something to their advantage as mobs are usually a lot more than the party and mostly at a higher lvl too!
Mobs of lvl 20+ should use random builds that players using in PvP in real time.
Specially grouped mobs(such as Kournans who have warriors monks and rangers in 1 group, not a group of 8 sin raptors) mobs should use builds from team arena teams, guildbattle teams or Alliance battle teams.
That would make them a lot more interesting.
But
by doing that you are randomizing huge aspect of the game, which means unlucky players will be severely disadvantaged while a lucky group might find FoW is full nothing but of noob builds when they clear it.
But then again, most noob builds are better than most monster builds.
16 Apr 2008 at 17:22 - 77
Thinking that soul reaping is underpowered in PvE is the same as thinking ursan is balanced. I win this thread.
16 Apr 2008 at 17:26 - 78
Soul Reaping is probably overpowered, still. Seriously, I have a difficult time fathoming how necros would run into energy problems in PvE.
16 Apr 2008 at 20:41 - 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood
it CANNOT be broken in any way
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