Do you think that Soul Reaping is underpowered in PvE?
Trvth Jvstice
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Originally Posted by Verek
as soon as they introduced the PVE only skills, and the 'Bear win button', any scintilla of balance was extinguished from PVE.
I don't understand how the word balanced applies to PVE. Basically, PVE exists purely for fun. If a skill like Ursan Blessing makes the game less fun for you then you won't use it. Another player's use of UB doesn't effect your enjoyment of the game one bit.
Chthon
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
This state of affairs is somewhat OK for the curse necro. It's like you're a mesmer, only with 10+ invested in an attribute that did nothing the whole battle. You can just regen between battles.
However, for the MM, (that's the build SR was supposed to synergize with if you've forgotten), this is a huge problem. Maintaining an army costs very nearly your full 4 pips (and more than 4 pips if your build is designed poorly), so regenerating between battles is impossible.
Quote: Originally Posted by The Meth 1. As far as energy management goes Anet just needs to make SoLS a core skill. SoLS is actually a terrible skill compared to the attunements and even GoLE. Everyone gets excited because it's the best non-elite e-management available to necros (except Maso in sac builds), but it's still bad in an absolute sense, and still nowhere near adequate as a replacement for SR.
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You aren't alone! Chthon is keeping you company!
Upier, you're a troll. You trolled the old SR threads. You made this thread as a troll. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off.
If you're in need of the extra energy, you must spec a decent amount into SR to recieve the benefits of taking SoLS, but at the same time, specing higher into SR might eleminate the need for SoLS all together. Now this is obviously not true in a few builds that only require the excessive use of one and sometimes two attributes (N/Rt's and MM's both benefit greatly from the never ending supply of energy) but in less traditional builds, it could cause a slight problem.
Basicly, it's a great skill in spammy gimmicks. But it loses effectiveness in that in order to increase its E-managment ability, you're effectively reducing the need for said increase.
And back to the matter at hand:
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Originally Posted by upier
Do you think that Soul Reaping is underpowered in PvE and does it need to be buffed?Yes
No
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SoLS is not a bad skill, but just slightly redundant in a few rare cases. (the same argument holds true for several skills, Archer's Signet being a more obvious and greater impacted one)|
Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
I don't understand how the word balanced applies to PVE. Basically, PVE exists purely for fun. If a skill like Ursan Blessing makes the game less fun for you then you won't use it. Another player's use of UB doesn't effect your enjoyment of the game one bit.
You are exactly right. Having a SR that worked properly for PvE MM's would in no way hurt anyone else's enjoyment. Fixing it hurts no one. Leaving it broken bothers people. Fix it.
shru
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Originally Posted by Chthon
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If you're in need of the extra energy, you must spec a decent amount into SR to recieve the benefits of taking SoLS, but at the same time, specing higher into SR might eleminate the need for SoLS all together. Now this is obviously not true in a few builds that only require the excessive use of one and sometimes two attributes (N/Rt's and MM's both benefit greatly from the never ending supply of energy) but in less traditional builds, it could cause a slight problem.
Basicly, it's a great skill in spammy gimmicks. But it loses effectiveness in that in order to increase its E-managment ability, you're effectively reducing the need for said increase.
And back to the matter at hand:
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Ok, so your whole arguement against SoLS can be summed up as this: "I am too lazy to be able to find a target <50% health. I like being able to play MM without even watching the screen". I just said the energy from SoLS is about 1/2 that gained by SR at its best, don't say its a trivial amount.|
Originally Posted by upier
Why?
Sab tought us why.
Carinae
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Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
Ursan Blessing and Sabway are two current examples of this, and that automatically raises a Red Flag for those builds. In general, "Win" builds are not good for the game. Even bad players have a hard time losing with these builds. Save Yourself is in a slightly different category. Actually, it's in the same category as MM. These builds are strong defensively for the entire party, but the rest of the party is still playing GW normally, with whatever build they want. As such, they aren't "Win" builds in-and-of-themselves, although they are very strong strategies.
The Meth
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Originally Posted by Chthon
SoLS is actually a terrible skill compared to the attunements and even GoLE. Everyone gets excited because it's the best non-elite e-management available to necros (except Maso in sac builds), but it's still bad in an absolute sense, and still nowhere near adequate as a replacement for SR.
SoLS is a great skill, what the heck are you talking about?
GoLE at 0 Energy Storage = 2 energy regen if used on recharge Soul Reaping at 12 = 7 energy regen (thats max mind you, as everyone has said circumstances can make it worse) SoLS at 12 soul reaping = consistent 3 energy regen if you can use on recharge. You will also gain 82 health, which isn't that great, but its a 5 energy heal you are saving your team. If including the energy someone would have used to heal you, you have about 4.5 pips of energy regen So, if Soul Reaping nerfed to +3ish regen, along with Signet of Lost Souls it is nearly as powerful as SR alone used to be, and there is no chance of wasted SR energy with being hit with 14s of 0 energy gain from getting screwed by the timer. Don't bash SoLS just because its an energy management that takes a small amount of skill to use, as opposed to just sitting around twiddling your thumbs while SR fills you up. I think actually forcing MM's to have some battle awareness is a good change away from a 1-2-3-sometimes 4 button mash that it takes now.
Trvth Jvstice
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Balance in PvE revolves around making sure dominant "play-this-and-win" builds don't exist. You want rough parity across the board with various builds and classes. Certainly, some builds are always going to be 'tuned' to specific areas, and that's OK. You DON'T want some builds to be equivalant to a "Win" button everywhere.
I agree that if I had struggled to put together a good build and some talented friends to be able to beat some of the more difficult areas of the game and later, a group full of goof ups were able to beat the same area using Ursan, I'd probably be ticked off too. However, I doubt if any decent players are using Ursan. I know I tried it for a few areas and it quickly sucked the fun from my game - so I don't use Ursan. I understand your point on the matter, but previously when people spoke of balance in GW - they were talking about PVP.
About SoLS, I tried it for a while and found that I rarely used it. On a Curse and Especially a Death skill bar there are just way too many good skills to use when I almost never run out of energy. This may sound bad, but if you really need SoLS, your team lacks dmg and you probably need to fix your team build rather than rely on a signet that only gives 10 energy at 15 in SR.
Carinae
SoLS is an awful skill for a Minion Master. It sucks, and isn't on any serious MM builds ever. It's OK for Blood/Curses necros, however, because they ARE playing against their enemies.
MM's don't cycle through targets, don't focus fire, and aren't really playing against their opponents. They are playing against themselves, against the clock if you will. They are focusing on maintaining their web-effect as best as possible. They are monitoring SR for triggers, recycling minions, mashing BotM on-recharge, and running booster skills as much as possible. SoLS takes a MM out of that mode. He has to find a target under 50% health and use the skill before it dies, neither of which are trivial. All the while, time is ticking away on the minion engine, because he's doing something that is irrelevant to the build. And on top of that, you don't get enough energy to be of any significant help with what you're doing. Heroes run SoLS well, because that's how their AI works. It's easy for them to do all that checking in a millisecond. The only real synergy it has with a MM build is that it's a SR skill, and MM's run lots of SR. Possibly it's an emergency heal or emergency energy buff, but those are BOTH outshown by Consume Corpse. Consume Corpse buries SoLS from a MM perspective. It doesn't have to be targeted and it doesn't have a recharge. The only apparent drawback, the random teleport, isn't actually a drawback at all....because there is NO recharge. Just use it again to get out of a bad spot. That said, it's still ridiculous to ask someone to invest 66+ attribute points AND a skill slot for e-management. Ridiculous! If I'm going to invest that many attribute points, the effect NEEDS to be there ALL THE TIME. And if it's there ALL the time, I don't need to also bring a e-management skill. EDIT: Quote:
Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
if you really need SoLS, your team lacks dmg and you probably need to fix your team build rather than rely on a signet that only gives 10 energy at 15 in SR.
Yes.
The Meth
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
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Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
if you really need SoLS, your team lacks dmg and you probably need to fix your team build rather than rely on a signet that only gives 10 energy at 15 in SR.
Right now, yes. I didn't say SoLS is required now for a necro build. I said that its use would be able to make up the energy lost if SR was nerfed by 50%ish. The only reason that SR isn't stapled to every necro's bar is that it is in the attribute line that already gives you infinite energy. If SR was tuned down a bit, SoLS would be everywhere.
Trvth Jvstice
@ The Meth: OK, you're talking about a hypothetical situation - my bad.
?
upier
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Originally Posted by Chthon
Upier, you're a troll. You trolled the old SR threads. You made this thread as a troll. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off.
You are actually thinking that your suggestions or views are balanced?
Like seriously? 
Carinae
@Upier - Chthon's views are right on, I haven't seen anything that's unbalanced. As you haven't suggested anything other than total capitulation to PvP balance, I can't make an evaluation that you know what balance is either.
Remove the SR timer. Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely. Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells. I do know what it means. This fixes everything. I've discussed this extensively with Ensign, for months and months. He agrees wholeheartedly. I talked to him again tonight, he still agrees. I've explained it to Izzy. I've explained the suggestion extensively here as well. This thread needs to be closed. Turbobusa
Ho our bad, 2 people agreed on a solution. This needs to be implemented by tomorrow. not.
Seriously, I don't know what you want to fix. N/Rts? It's not like they are un beatable. Blood spike is dead, Why do you want to change a mechanic that's not broken at the moment, 3 years after it's been released? The firstSR changes were there because there was abuses ran, now only N/Rts are "abusing" soul reaping, and still it only works in gimmick that need to kill at least once to get there "advantage". They can't prot effectively. The rest of the builds still works if you have any clue on how to play the game. It's not like MMs are a problem anywhere now.
Longasc
I see no chance to "fix" Soul Reaping in GW1 without fundamentally changing the whole class desin.
I just wonder what they will do to Necros in GW2, I keep a bucket ready to vomit...^^
upier
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
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That is NOT needed.
The best indicator of showing how insanely overpowered SR is was the removal of the energy gain from spirits. Spirits helped emulate PvE conditions in PvP.
SR needs a straight up nerf. No balancing or toying around with various options - it needs to just get worse.
And this shows why the obvious lack of understanding of the balance is present:
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Yes, thats basically the problem.|
Originally Posted by Chthon
Now you've got 15sec of no energy at all, and you only gained 25e total.
Gaining 25 energy (absolutely passively for that matter!) NEVER warrants the use of the word "only".
Chthon
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
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That's an argument with putting an upper bound on SR, but not an argument for keeping the 15sec timer. You want people to look at their energy and their recharging skills and the battle situation and decide "is it better to cast spell X now, or save the energy and cast spell Y a little later?" The problem is: the SR timer does NOT encourage people to make that sort of decision any more than unbounded SR did. With the SR timer in place randomizing what ought to be somewhat predictable energy gains, the answer to that question is always: "Damned if I know! I might gain enough energy to pay for both before Y recharges, or I might gain none; but I have to choose right now before I find out how much energy I'll actually have." And so the best choice is still "yes, use the skill now (and pray for SR later)" and necromancer "energy management" becomes about building a skillbar where every skill is always worth it rather than about making intelligent choices about how to spend your limited, and known amount of energy available.
Before the SR nerf, you had infinite energy.
After the SR nerf, you have infinite energy 95% of the time, and far less 5% of the time.
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Yes it is, you are wrong. It makes it more consistent. More reliable. Less random. Less exploitable. Lowers overall returns. Eliminates sharring. |
Originally Posted by upier
This improves SR.
That is NOT needed. That would, actually, be a very decent change. Minions and spirits are the true thing that overpowers SR. Without minions, taking off the SR timer only affects you if you get more then 3 kills in 15 seconds. And if you get 4 kills in 15 seconds, you have already won the fight, right? It's not too dissimilar from my proposal to give +regen from dieing things, which would make it slightly better in PvP and slightly worse in PvE, but on the other hand it is quite a bit easier to implement and less game-changing. I do believe my priorly proposed animate energy cost tiers would be just fine with this system. 5e: animate horror, animate bone minions, jagged bones. 10e: animate shambling horror, animate vampiric horror. 15: animate bone fiend.
upier
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Originally Posted by The Meth
I do believe my priorly proposed animate energy cost tiers would be just fine with this system.
5e: animate horror, animate bone minions, jagged bones. 10e: animate shambling horror, animate vampiric horror. 15: animate bone fiend. So you are seriously suggesting that a system where a party of 8 has an additional force of 10 minions is so underpowered that it requires a buff? There is a reason why minions should be costly. They do damage and they provide protection. 25 for a fiend IS worth it!
Cathode_Reborn
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Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
I don't understand how the word balanced applies to PVE. Basically, PVE exists purely for fun. If a skill like Ursan Blessing makes the game less fun for you then you won't use it. Another player's use of UB doesn't effect your enjoyment of the game one bit.
Ursan has lowered the value on just about all loot so it does affect everyone. Before, a full DoA run would get you back much cash. With Consumables/Ursan now, it's hardly even worth doing for profit.
Anyways, I don't see what's with all the fuss about Soul Reaping in PvE. No one's giving a real good reason why it should be changed. Anet created e-mangement skills for a reason, don't you think there's a problem when a class has so much energy that he doesn't even need to use those skills? My nec has SoLS stapled to most of his bars (even when I MM, it's not hard to use...) and has a high energy set. SR is fine in pve. Still though, I think the 25e cost of Bone Fiends are a joke. Sure they dominate in NM, but in HM they're trash. The real nec issues are PvP based and it's alot more than just SR.
The Meth
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Originally Posted by upier
25 for a fiend IS worth it!
It is when you get 10-12 back from SR, and have already gotten 10-12 back from the foe dieing. This change will make it so minions don't give SR.
MercenaryKnight
I think pve soul reaping should go back to normal. However since they can't have 2 forms of soul reaping 1 for pvp and 1 for pve it can't be done. I also think the minion cap should go away. If a necro wants to use his elite for aura of the lich so he can keep up 15+ minions let him.
Hopefully they have learned from this and in gws2 there will be pvp skills and pve skills. Different mechanics for pve and pvp so nerfing one side won't affect the other.
Carinae
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Originally Posted by upier
That is NOT needed. |
It does become unbounded again, just like every other primary attribute. But the condition for getting energy cannot be artifically manufactured, nor can it be sharred with other necros.
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Exactly. If you're killing monsters/players, I don't CARE what the SR energy returns are. Period. Because you're playing the game. Playing it better gains you more energy, which is actually how it should work.
Expertise works all the time, the more skills you use the more benefit you gain. Expertise is therefore unbounded and the benefit is much easier to trigger. Use a skill. Whereas with SR you need to get a KILL. That's inherently more difficult that pressing a button.
Same argument works for Divine Favor.
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Quote:|
Originally Posted by The Meth
5e: animate horror, animate bone minions, jagged bones.
10e: animate shambling horror, animate vampiric horror. 15: animate bone fiend. I agree completely. That's how I'd prorate them. I'm actually getting scared now....
Trvth Jvstice
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
I'm actually getting scarred now....
It's scared
 Seems to me that if Carinae and Ensign both agree on the point, then it should be settled. I agree, /closethread Also, has anyone else noticed Moloch's almost suspicious avoidance of this thread, weird.
The Meth
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
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It's scared
Who knows, maybe scarred is the intended word?
If I keep this up I might be able to permanently disfigure Carinae with my posts.
Of course, the whole idea of getting something in PvE balanced is ridiculous. Whole thread is therefor a failure no matter how much we can agree on stuff.
Maybe in GW2.
Who knows, maybe scarred is the intended word? If I keep this up I might be able to permanently disfigure Carinae with my posts.
Of course, the whole idea of getting something in PvE balanced is ridiculous. Whole thread is therefor a failure no matter how much we can agree on stuff.
Maybe in GW2.
Carinae
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Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
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Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
Also, has anyone else noticed Moloch's almost suspicious avoidance of this thread, weird.
I have, indeed.
upier
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Yes it is, you are wrong. It makes it more consistent. More reliable. Less random. Less exploitable. Lowers overall returns. Eliminates sharring.
It does become unbounded again, just like every other primary attribute. But the condition for getting energy cannot be artifically manufactured, nor can it be sharred with other necros. This is a joke right? The returns will be bigger - by definition. Non mm-teams - we have the same system as we do now - just without the timer. Which means that the necros will gain the same amount of energy that they did now PLUS the energy that would be gained after the initial 3 triggers. MM teams - as shown by a examples - the problem is that the minions cause the returns to happen when the energy bar is not ready for them. Which lowers the returns. Because you know - you "only" gain 25 energy that way and then nothing from them 7 foes you killed. Now if the minions do not contribute to that - the only way the necro will not be getting back whole returns is if a foes dies too fast for the necro to contribute to it's demise. Which means we have a less random, more reliable system with bigger returns. Yep, just what SR needs. jayce
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Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
Also, has anyone else noticed Moloch's almost suspicious avoidance of this thread, weird.
are you kidding? the moment this turned into a how to balance soul reaping discussion for pve is the moment this thread ended. afterwhich, the very second you start talking about how to balance soul reaping for pve, especially in a thread titled in this mannor, will be the very second that you are found guilty by reason of insanity. at this point, if they can't fix it for good (and i dont mean just pve), then just leave it alone and reply to the thread with either a yes or no answer.
Jayce Of Underworld
System_Crush
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Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
If a necro wants to use his elite for aura of the lich so he can keep up 15+ minions let him.
Yes please
================================ Well could still [[Blood is Power] yourself to death, to share a lot of energy with a team of necros. But it will get rid of the whole sr return sharing gimic that sabs build relies on. And it kinda makes sense too, undead don't have souls so you shouldn't be able to reap them. (that goes for PvE undead foes as well, which will cause a lot of complaining in the end, but I guess it helps us PvEers) Then again, not being able to manufacture the condition, will make SR less useful in PvP as deaths are far less common there. (unless I get floored repeatedly be a E/A SavannahSin)
Kaida the Heartless
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Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
If a necro wants to use his elite for aura of the lich so he can keep up 15+ minions let him.
This makes me nostalgic.
Carinae
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Originally Posted by upier
The returns will be bigger - by definition. Non mm-teams - we have the same system as we do now - just without the timer. Which means that the necros will gain the same amount of energy that they did now PLUS the energy that would be gained after the initial 3 triggers. MM teams - as shown by a examples - the problem is that the minions cause the returns to happen when the energy bar is not ready for them. Which lowers the returns. Because you know - you "only" gain 25 energy that way and then nothing from them 7 foes you killed. Now if the minions do not contribute to that - the only way the necro will not be getting back whole returns is if a foes dies too fast for the necro to contribute to it's demise. Which means we have a less random, more reliable system with bigger returns. Yep, just what SR needs. |
When I play anything other than MM, blue bar is already full all the time. If it isn't, wait, 2 seconds. Removing the timer affects that how? You don't like that? Then play another class. It's how necros work. You (and a few others) have a ridiculous notion that they should be like every other class (but without a functional primary) in managing energy. QQ more. You might as well complain that Sins deal more damage with daggers than a necro!!! (oh noes) My Sin and Ranger don't bring e-management, and they NEVER run out of energy. QQ more. I notice that you conveniently ignore any examples or topics that counter your silly "QQ it's too good" argument.
On an MM, blue bar crashes because SR falls flat on its face due to unintended dynamics within SR. Yes, unintended. The only actual reason to tone it down would be PvP, except in PvP it barely functions at all.
You're actually trying to argue that an e-management Primary Attribute, which inherently should be better than any Elite Skill, should have to be augmented with additional skill based e-management? And for what? What benefit is gained by toning it down in PvE?
Seriously. Answer that question.
What aspect of Guild Wars is disrupted by SR's relative strength? (beyond sharing SR hits, which IS broken)
Are people not playing other classes because SR is too good? Does it just piss you off that necros get free energy? What?
Bront
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Originally Posted by Chthon
3. As I said in the previous threads on this topic, if you think "the timer is OK because I still have more energy than I can use," that means you were never able to use SR "right" in the first place. I hate to be elitist, but a good player could put all of the energy that pre-nerf SR provided to good use and still want more. If you can't understand that, then perhaps you need to accept that serious discussion of the topic is beyond you, and stop posting.
This right here is a reason to nerf a skill. Pre-Nerf, you say you could cast to your heart's content. Well, no class should be able to do that. Part of the balancing act is getting your skills set up to work with your existing energy. Infinite energy removes that balance. At least an E Mindblast build requires you to use Mindblast to keep your energy up, and actually stops if your energy gets too low, so can be subject to coordinated energy drain to shut down the infinite energy train.
I'm not saying the timer is a great solution, though at least the fix where if you're maxed it doesn't count against your 3 helps with that a bit. A fractional solution similar to how Mysticism works might function better (1 HP per point, 1 energy per 3), or limiting the effect of minions (Either they don't count, or only your own minions count) might help.
A better option would be to rework Soul Reaping entirely and make an enchantment that functioned similar to Boon of Creation but for deaths. it'd require a skill slot, be an enchantment so strip able, and could be tweaked a little easier.
I'm not saying the timer is a great solution, though at least the fix where if you're maxed it doesn't count against your 3 helps with that a bit. A fractional solution similar to how Mysticism works might function better (1 HP per point, 1 energy per 3), or limiting the effect of minions (Either they don't count, or only your own minions count) might help.
A better option would be to rework Soul Reaping entirely and make an enchantment that functioned similar to Boon of Creation but for deaths. it'd require a skill slot, be an enchantment so strip able, and could be tweaked a little easier.
Carinae
The primary attribute for Necromancers should probably have been based on Lifestealing, not SR at all. Something like "Steal X health from target foe whenever you cast a spell on a foe." Where X is your rank in the primary attribute.
Or, maybe "For every rank in your primary attribute, you steal an additional 5% health when you steal life."
The second one allow other classes to use lifesteals, but makes necros better at it noticably.
Or, maybe "For every rank in your primary attribute, you steal an additional 5% health when you steal life."
The second one allow other classes to use lifesteals, but makes necros better at it noticably.
Kaida the Heartless
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Or, maybe "For every rank in your primary attribute, you steal an additional 5% health when you steal life."
The second one allow other classes to use lifesteals, but makes necros better at it noticably.
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Originally Posted by Bront
though at least the fix where if you're maxed it doesn't count against your 3 helps with that a bit.
Dude, that is why soul reaping needs the fix in the first place; it's NOT working. Guess what happens if you're casting a 15 energy spell when two things die? You gain 15 energy, not 20-26 like intended. It happens alot more often than you would think.
The point of this whole thread is that Necromancers have the jankiest, most random, eratic energy management in the game. When you can control it, it's broken. When you can't, it sucks abyssmally. Thus, everyone is trying to find a happy mid-ground where its alright, all the time.
Carinae
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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
That version of soulreaping would've put bloodspike on PCP.
Ah, yea, I forgot to add that existing lifesteals would be toned down so that they are about their current strength (maybe slightly buffed) with a solid investment in your Primary Att. Good catch.
It's just a thought, not an actual proposal.
Bront
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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
Dude, that is why soul reaping needs the fix in the first place; it's NOT working. Guess what happens if you're casting a 15 energy spell when two things die? You gain 15 energy, not 20-26 like intended. It happens alot more often than you would think.
The specific issue was if you were Full (ie 42/42 or whatever), it didn't count.
Beyond that, it's like overhealing. Complaining about the lost health (or in this case energy) is pointless, since you simply couldn't handle it. But seriously, consistant or not, Necros get energy management easier than other classes because they are constantly gaining energy without skill investments. Sure, Elementalists get ES, but once they spend the energy, they recharge just as fast as other characters, so they still need Energy management. Dervishes get very little energy from their enchantments, so their entire energy management scenario can't rely on that. Paragons have leadership and.... well, that's potentially broken too, so we'll ignore that one. Even Ranger's expertise only effects certain skills, and reduces their costs, which doesn't supply an infinite amount of energy. Necros get a fairly large stream of constant energy that means they need almost no other energy management in PvE beyond specing into SR. No other profession has that (beyond the Paragon, who, as I mentioned, has it's own balance issues), and either must curtail their energy spending by skill selection and use, or use energy management skills that take up valuable skill bar space. Just because it was unlimited before doesn't mean it was better then, nor does it mean it was fair then. The problem is two fold: What method can be consistent enough to count on in PvP but not abusive in PvE. PvP relying on death is a potential issue, because, as mentioned, by the time that happens, the tide of the battle is turning one way or the other, while in PvE, deaths happen quite often. It's possable there may not be a fix without a complete rework (perhaps something similar to how Expertise works by reducing costs, fractional energy awards (1/2,1/3, or 1/4 SR per death), or insert other clever solution here), which may require new or reworked skills to compliment the E-Management loss. Honestly, there are thing "more broken" in PvE outside of SR, but SR does contribute to some of the "brokenness" in PvE as constituted.
Div
8 pages of talking about other stuff, 10 days, and 30 reports later, it's about time for this thread to die.
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