wow, a compromise to pvp and pve skill separation?...wait...this is not a compromise.....
uh i dont know quite how to look at this, is this solution not MORE confusing than simply separating the 2 for good?
as for the "oh noes nerfs!" there is a reason for that but meh i cant be bothered to explain the way (GW) "meta" functions to you people again.
in any case its a step in the right direction, they just need to be more determined with it and go the whole way.
Game Update Thursday April 17, 2008
Sleeper Service
lacasner
PvP needs more updates, not more neglect.
Why is this so hard for people to understand, jesus christ PvE always has Ursan and farming builds people can just run until the end of time. Anet needs to really get their skill balancing priorities straight.
Why is this so hard for people to understand, jesus christ PvE always has Ursan and farming builds people can just run until the end of time. Anet needs to really get their skill balancing priorities straight.
VitisVinifera
Avarre and Magikarp, you are BOTH right. But by tying pvp and pve together, it has both sides hurling blame at the other for the miserable state both are currently in. pvp qq'ers are largely justified and correct from their side, as is pve qq'ers. If we each had our own rules which reflected reality in our meta's, things would be much nicer.
Rift
I understand what they are trying to do -- try to balance for one last big MAT without consideration to PVE impact, and then revert it all, but the timing of these is a bit awkward.
It will suck if cupcakes start falling for the 3rd Birthday party, and we can't farm them as efficiently now that AR is interrupt bait for those Raptors.
I want my cupcakes! D:
It will suck if cupcakes start falling for the 3rd Birthday party, and we can't farm them as efficiently now that AR is interrupt bait for those Raptors.
I want my cupcakes! D:
Lykan
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Originally Posted by Dzan
Update - Thursday, April 17, 2008
This month's update is unique. It is a "temporary tournament update" targeted at the final cash-prize tournament, which will take place at the end of April. The skill changes are temporary and will be in effect for only two weeks. [snip] * The developers stated that the skill changes will be reverted on May 1st. |
Less QQing.
MisterT69
The thing is with all these updates, is that A-net didn't spend the time to test or realize the threats of some skills. They made SoR with it's original duration and power when NF was first released. THEY KNEW what it was capable of, and how great it was. Same thing with splinter weapon and death pact. Yet the problem with A-net is they release these skills, draw people in, and then A-net ALWAYS says
"Ah crap, we really !@#$%^ up. Apparently GW players aren't retarded monkeys and know how to use these skills with l33t effectiveness. Let's nerf em down a bit to cover up our mistakes."
Honestly A-net, you knew about how these skills worked and you didn't realize how good some players are at drawing maximum power from the best skills and making the best builds. We've been doing it since day 1, and instead of making balanced skills, you make insane skills that are too powerful and later nerfed.
Questions...see: Death pact signet 6 months ago, or SoR pre-nerf. Still need convincing? Check out Seed of Life and TNTF before they got nerfed, sometime before August '07
Now I know about the tournament, and how you're reverting the skills back, but it's not like this is THE only big nerf we've had. There have been bigger and worse unfortunately
"Ah crap, we really !@#$%^ up. Apparently GW players aren't retarded monkeys and know how to use these skills with l33t effectiveness. Let's nerf em down a bit to cover up our mistakes."
Honestly A-net, you knew about how these skills worked and you didn't realize how good some players are at drawing maximum power from the best skills and making the best builds. We've been doing it since day 1, and instead of making balanced skills, you make insane skills that are too powerful and later nerfed.
Questions...see: Death pact signet 6 months ago, or SoR pre-nerf. Still need convincing? Check out Seed of Life and TNTF before they got nerfed, sometime before August '07
Now I know about the tournament, and how you're reverting the skills back, but it's not like this is THE only big nerf we've had. There have been bigger and worse unfortunately
Sleeper Service
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Originally Posted by VitisVinifera
Avarre and Magikarp, you are BOTH right. But by tying pvp and pve together, it has both sides hurling blame at the other for the miserable state both are currently in. pvp qq'ers are largely justified and correct from their side, as is pve qq'ers. If we each had our own rules which reflected reality in our meta's, things would be much nicer.
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Dr Strangelove
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Originally Posted by lacasner
PvP needs more updates, not more neglect.
Why is this so hard for people to understand, jesus christ PvE always has Ursan and farming builds people can just run until the end of time. Anet needs to really get their skill balancing priorities straight. |
Passive defense needed a nerf. Everything else is completely irrelevant to PvE.
I'm very sad that they're choosing to revert these changes, as that tells me they don't care about balance after May. More than anything else, a lack of updates means the death of the game, not any inconsequential nerf.
ShadowsRequiem
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Originally Posted by Lykan
Did any body actually read this bit??
Less QQing. |
Avarre
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Originally Posted by VitisVinifera
pvp qq'ers are largely justified and correct from their side, as is pve qq'ers.
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It's one thing to contest a pointless or damaging change, but blame being placed on PvP for changing a skill that made up a great number of PvE builds is improper.
Mickey
Nerf doesn't really matter to me. I always run IAS so Eremite's and Mystic nerf is meh. Is it 1 second, as in, activation 1 second? or is it just a no second activation attack skills?
PvE and PvP need to have seperate rules. Srsly. This whole "it's gonna be like this for 2 weeks cause of a PvP tournament, then everything will be fine" is a load of BS. Just keep it the same in PvE, and update this for PvP, and change it back in 2 weeks so the QQing is done.
PvE and PvP need to have seperate rules. Srsly. This whole "it's gonna be like this for 2 weeks cause of a PvP tournament, then everything will be fine" is a load of BS. Just keep it the same in PvE, and update this for PvP, and change it back in 2 weeks so the QQing is done.
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Avarre
If you're the one complaining that balance changes are destroying your builds and play experience, aren't you the one who was abusing the skills and lack the creativity to adapt?
PS: Yes. Yes you are. |
"my" builds havent been touched pve wise, because one:
i play warrior and monk mostly, and the only thing that got hit was aegis (big deal)
and two:
i play whatever i feel like seeing used in pve, because pve isnt that difficult.
what im saying, is that the casual gamers, and the general gws community suffers from even more bad skills being made. the more you nerf into oblivion for whatever reason, the less good skills there are to use, and the steeper the learning curve for new, more creative, or adaptive solutions, steering the less creative into wiki builds (which may or may not be affected) or ursan, which not everyone likes to play.
pvp is where all the close players are, im sorry to break it to you, and in fact, if it wasn't for them and their massive skill abuse, and whining, our skills as a community wouldnt get slammed into the Wastrels Worry catagory every month....
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
pvp is where all the close players are, im sorry to break it to you, and in fact, if it wasn't for them and their massive skill abuse, and whining, our skills as a community wouldnt get slammed into the Wastrels Worry catagory every month....
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Even these changes are pretty minor, and are being reverted anyway.
Farming, PvE skills, armor stacking to tank, AoE spam, all of these are PvE skill abuses that people accept because they're in PvE. Yet when some of these get changed (splinter weapon, in this update), people immediately jump at PvP'ers.
Hott Bill
Well i'm off to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing to delete my paragon now. Least they left SY and TNTF alone.
Rift
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Originally Posted by Avarre
The problem with this is that balance changes rarely affect PvE. When they do, most of the balance changes that affect PvE do so because PvE heavily used that skill or mechanic as well, making it a PvE change as much as a PvP one.
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Level designers balanced their work around skill-functionality at that time. It is simply too complex to assert the exact impact of a change over 3 chapters and an expansion within a reasonable period of time without heavily investing time and money in QC, which Anet can't afford now that efforts are put mainly on the next generation of GuildWars.
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Avarre
The problem with this is that balance changes rarely affect PvE. When they do, most of the balance changes that affect PvE do so because PvE heavily used that skill or mechanic as well, making it a PvE change as much as a PvP one.
It's one thing to contest a pointless or damaging change, but blame being placed on PvP for changing a skill that made up a great number of PvE builds is improper. |
every skill in the game, every balance for those skills, affects everyones games differently. you have no clue what little Johnny runs, or what casual Tina likes to run... its one thing to have to adapt, but what if they only have one campaign, or are 12, or haven't made it to the point that they know every skill and good alternate solutions for the modern gaming meta???? these are the people that rarely get any consideration, and they paid just as much as we did for the game too...
Div
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Creating a boundry between skills for PvP and PvE is harder then most people think. Stop complaining about it, I highly doubt ANet are going to even consider changing over a thousand skills to make PvErs happy.
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Quote:
| You have to understand the scope of the game and everything involved with every change. There are so many other game types, and angles to look at this stuff. Yes there are changes that would make the game more balance but also destroy the balance somewhere else, yes I understand you guys don't care about those aspects of the game, but I do I have to. You know that the vast majority of the community hates it when ANYTHING gets changed? There are a crap ton of things to consider here. |
Savio
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
you have no clue what little Johnny runs, or what casual Tina likes to run...
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Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Avarre
My issue with your reasoning is I've never seen a purely PvP-based update that had a major effect on my PvE play. Almost all major changes are PvE-driven, or a mix of the two.
Even these changes are pretty minor, and are being reverted anyway. Farming, PvE skills, armor stacking to tank, AoE spam, all of these are PvE skill abuses that people accept because they're in PvE. Yet when some of these get changed (splinter weapon, in this update), people immediately jump at PvP'ers. |
too many people play this game for anet to drive us into the range of only having about 120 good skills to choose from, and still expect the casual, or even advanced gamers to want to hassle themselves from playing a fun game, into making it a chore of learning the steep, unforgiving curve of competitive play, or advanced strategiy...
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Originally Posted by Savio
Johnny and Tina will run those skills anyway, because casual PvE revolves around playing what people think look cool.
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its the thinking process you just displayed that shows the utter lack of care and consideration for the HUGE margin of people who simply want to get the value of the games they paid for.
(mind you, the high end pvp'ers are VERY small percent of the community)
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Rift
Some NPC's suddenly become incredibly overpowered, or totally useless (see LoD Mhenlo).
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Quote:
| Level designers balanced their work around skill-functionality at that time. It is simply too complex to assert the exact impact of a change over 3 chapters and an expansion within a reasonable period of time without heavily investing time and money in QC, which Anet can't afford now that efforts are put mainly on the next generation of GuildWars. |
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
please explain how you can possibly say "balance changes rarely affect PvE"...
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
haven't made it to the point that they know every skill and good alternate solutions for the modern gaming meta????
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Casual player is not the same as noob. A casual player might not play often or for long periods of time, but it doesn't mean they're clueless about how to play, or incapable of learning.
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| making it a chore of learning the steep, unforgiving curve of competitive play, or advanced strategiy... |
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| or are 12 |
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Avarre
This was dealt with in a subsequent update, I believe?
Areas of Guild Wars are in no way balanced against the players. PvE skills, old trinity builds with tanks, farming and so on - nearly all skill changes won't make much difference to the ratio of player:mob power. No character class has been rendered entirely useless. No area has become uncompleteable. Builds might go in and out of fashion or effectiveness, but the overall PvE game isn't really changed, since you can still just stroll in and slaughter everything. Guild Wars was originally meant to be skill-based. If someone's skill isn't enough to complete an area, they should refine their tactics, tweak their builds, and so on. A player with no knowledge of how the game works or what is effective shouldn't be having success purely due to powerful skills. Casual player is not the same as noob. A casual player might not play often or for long periods of time, but it doesn't mean they're clueless about how to play, or incapable of learning. It's a teen-rated game. |
also, the "teen game" quote may have sounded witty in your head, but was really uncalled for. i've met 10 year old kids that could stomp 99% of the high tier community with one eye closed.
SerenitySilverstar
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Originally Posted by Lykan
Did any body actually read this bit??
Less QQing. |
Solves something, at least.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
never said casuals were clueless, but i doubt someone who plays once or twice a week, has only factions, and is in a sub-par guild, isn't going to want to relearn, buy new, or test out skills. not everyone can afford the new skills if they're used to something, or so on.
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Not to mention threads like this do a pretty quick job of pointing out what no longer works and what does, so all that player has to do is spend 5 minutes figuring out what to remove and what to add.
Quote:
| also, the "teen game" quote may have sounded witty in your head, but was really uncalled for. i've met 10 year old kids that could stomp 99% of the high tier community with one eye closed. |
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Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar
Solves something, at least.
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Rift
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Originally Posted by Avarre
This was dealt with in a subsequent update, I believe?
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Quote:
| Areas of Guild Wars are in no way balanced against the players. PvE skills, old trinity builds with tanks, farming and so on - nearly all skill changes won't make much difference to the ratio of player:mob power. |
For example, a buff to WoH created havok in the desert missions where enemy bosses were just overhealing to the point that a typical player was not able to overcome the mission. First-time players simply did not have the tools necessary to defeat this area at that point in the game, which most likely resulted in much frustration on their part.
People simply need to understand the scope of 'simple' changes is actually much greater than they imagine, due to the open nature of a game like GW.
Savio
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
casual has a multitude of meanings, and not everyone who falls into that category is a moron.
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Then there are those "casual" players who qq because the one build they ran had a skill nerfed. But that's not the casual you were referring to.
Also, [email protected] pros and Magikarp's refusal to play in high-end PvP. They would dominate the tourneys if they wanted to!
Lady Lozza
*sigh*
Another update, another whinge from "PvE'ers" about how Anet is ruining the game. Was there something I missed somewhere that said that monsters got to use the OLD version of the skill or something? That suddenly somehow the extra casting time of a scythe attack is somehow suddenly going to render the skill COMPLETELY useless against foes that don't have a single interrupt.
People please. If PvE were static it would get boring quickly. If people didn't have to change their builds once in a while because they don't work quite as well as they used to then some skill lines would NEVER have been used. If people actually stopped to think about it - the only builds that get affected are farming builds, and it only takes farmers a day or two to compensate. If people in PvP can kill red dots, then PvE players can also kill red dots - I don't see the cause for complaint.
This particular update however, does affect (general) PvE in one (yes only one) manner. With two very popular res methods nerfed it will take a lot longer to get a team back up on it's feet and fighting again. This is an effect that may certainly be a problem, everything else can be adjusted for.
Another update, another whinge from "PvE'ers" about how Anet is ruining the game. Was there something I missed somewhere that said that monsters got to use the OLD version of the skill or something? That suddenly somehow the extra casting time of a scythe attack is somehow suddenly going to render the skill COMPLETELY useless against foes that don't have a single interrupt.
People please. If PvE were static it would get boring quickly. If people didn't have to change their builds once in a while because they don't work quite as well as they used to then some skill lines would NEVER have been used. If people actually stopped to think about it - the only builds that get affected are farming builds, and it only takes farmers a day or two to compensate. If people in PvP can kill red dots, then PvE players can also kill red dots - I don't see the cause for complaint.
This particular update however, does affect (general) PvE in one (yes only one) manner. With two very popular res methods nerfed it will take a lot longer to get a team back up on it's feet and fighting again. This is an effect that may certainly be a problem, everything else can be adjusted for.
explodemyheart
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Originally Posted by Hott Bill
Well i'm off to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing to delete my paragon now. Least they left SY and TNTF alone.
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Avarre
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Originally Posted by Rift
Indeed. It was just a couter-example to disprove your argument using an oversight of a 'balanced' skill's impact on PVE.
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Quote:
| For example, a buff to WoH created havok in the desert missions where enemy bosses were just overhealing to the point that a typical player was not able to overcome the mission. First-time players simply did not have the tools necessary to defeat this area at that point in the game, which most likely resulted in much frustration on their part. |
The tools are available though, they just have to be selected more meticulously (-heal%, disabling skills, etc) which would cause frustration if the player didn't have access to any information to help them.
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Savio
Also, [email protected] pros and Magikarp's refusal to play in high-end PvP. They would dominate the tourneys if they wanted to!
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meh, im done with this thread. you and Avarre dont understand the community and its vast multitude of independent and spanning horizons of style and mentality. not everyone chooses to play like you two, not everyone has a kill kill kill knowledge base, and not everyone finds pve as easy as you do. everyone has a right to be different, and that right shouldn't be hindered by massive passive sweeping nerfs, forcing them in to pure junk builds like ursan, or whatever they're guilds refer them to on wiki. simple as that. its getting to the point, that in order to play efficiently or effectively, each class has about 4 good builds in pve, and ursan. its getting to the point that the games pve aspect is simply copy paste, just like pvp has been since NF......
also, claiming its a teen game, saying 12 year olds shouldnt play it, is just totally biased, and in all honesty, immature.... and i think you know that.
Rasaek
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Originally Posted by explodemyheart
Does that mean I can point and laugh when the changes are reverted in a couple of weeks?
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Magikarp
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza
*sigh*
Another update, another whinge from "PvE'ers" about how Anet is ruining the game. Was there something I missed somewhere that said that monsters got to use the OLD version of the skill or something? That suddenly somehow the extra casting time of a scythe attack is somehow suddenly going to render the skill COMPLETELY useless against foes that don't have a single interrupt. People please. If PvE were static it would get boring quickly. If people didn't have to change their builds once in a while because they don't work quite as well as they used to then some skill lines would NEVER have been used. If people actually stopped to think about it - the only builds that get affected are farming builds, and it only takes farmers a day or two to compensate. If people in PvP can kill red dots, then PvE players can also kill red dots - I don't see the cause for complaint. This particular update however, does affect (general) PvE in one (yes only one) manner. With two very popular res methods nerfed it will take a lot longer to get a team back up on it's feet and fighting again. This is an effect that may certainly be a problem, everything else can be adjusted for. |
the "good" skill pool is getting smaller and smaller, leaving few viable efficient answers for the casual, and even some of the advanced gamers. its not that hard to understand why the general consensus of sweep nerfs hurting everyone, also affects pve'ers.....
arsie
Significantly, they started on the road of "...no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs."
It is a) a sign of desperation that they are not able to manage GvG, b) starts a precedence for the same skill having different effects in PvE and PvP (and potentially different modes of PvE and PvP).
It is a) a sign of desperation that they are not able to manage GvG, b) starts a precedence for the same skill having different effects in PvE and PvP (and potentially different modes of PvE and PvP).
Lhim
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Originally Posted by Rasaek
Is it just me, or did the announcement that the changes would be reverted vanish? Where was it again? >.> I know I read it somewhere.
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I'm glad it will be reverted. Otherwise there should be more skillbuffs.
Lykan
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Originally Posted by Hott Bill
Well i'm off to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing to delete my paragon now. Least they left SY and TNTF alone.
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Quote:
| * The developers stated that the skill changes will be reverted on May 1st. |
Stop crying omg.
horseradish
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Originally Posted by Lykan
Do i have to type it in bright red too?
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Don't bother.
Magikarp
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Originally Posted by Lykan
lol wow ok here it is AGAIN...
Do i have to type it in bright red too? Stop crying omg. |
do you people seriously think you're clever? you're not hurting my feelings by proving ignorance in what should be an educated debate between experienced players....
Kaida the Heartless
I kinda lol'ed when I was reading the list. Chaos storm is crackin me up.
arsie
Announcing a revert date is just a little bit more transparency, I feel.
They have been claiming that many updates are temporary and they are watching the effects, etc, without giving us an actual testing time-frame. This time they have, probably so they can justify quite a high impact nerf.
Some of those defence skills that are nerfed are quite important in PvE HM when you're getting spiked by Level 28 guys. Oh well...
They have been claiming that many updates are temporary and they are watching the effects, etc, without giving us an actual testing time-frame. This time they have, probably so they can justify quite a high impact nerf.
Some of those defence skills that are nerfed are quite important in PvE HM when you're getting spiked by Level 28 guys. Oh well...
Lady Lozza
Maybe I missed the part where we PvE'ers were supposed to be running 8 uber skills, that are super uber in their own right, on our skill bar. If this is indeed the point of PvE, then you are right GW is lost beyond all possible redemption. However I think that GW was never meant to be about 8 uber skills lined up in a skill bar, and more about 8 skills that work well with eachother and work well with what the rest of the team is carrying.
Let me be completely honest - I wasn't even aware that aegis was 10 energy, I thought it was still 15, and since in order to monk properly I have to be in casting range, I never noticed the change to the range of aegis either. LoD, yes I noticed that change, but I moved on to GoLE and HP and HB. With the change to HP, I've altered my build somewhat to get a little more juice out of it.
As a pve'er I do notice some changes, but I adjust - easily. It doesn't take a lot of time, it doesn't take a lot of thought. Last I checked the game was about fun. I go, kill red dots. As long as the skills I have still allow me to do that (and as long as PvP red dots can be killed with skills, so will PvE red dots) I'm happy. I don't play the numbers game. I don't care whether my build before the update did more dps than after it, so long as red dots die.
Let me be completely honest - I wasn't even aware that aegis was 10 energy, I thought it was still 15, and since in order to monk properly I have to be in casting range, I never noticed the change to the range of aegis either. LoD, yes I noticed that change, but I moved on to GoLE and HP and HB. With the change to HP, I've altered my build somewhat to get a little more juice out of it.
As a pve'er I do notice some changes, but I adjust - easily. It doesn't take a lot of time, it doesn't take a lot of thought. Last I checked the game was about fun. I go, kill red dots. As long as the skills I have still allow me to do that (and as long as PvP red dots can be killed with skills, so will PvE red dots) I'm happy. I don't play the numbers game. I don't care whether my build before the update did more dps than after it, so long as red dots die.
Lykan
Im waiting for the May update now, all skills in pve get buffed by 50% and all skills in pvp get nerfed by 25%.