Thw world after tommorow - bringing PvE into the balance equation. - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

18 Apr 2008 at 11:45 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daggrs And All

how about they make PvP only skill updates? like, if your in a PvP area/match your skills are different then they would be in a PvE environment

we DO have PvP only skills:

Frenzy for example.

There is even PvE-only version of this skill (Flail)

the_jos

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hard Mode Legion [HML]

N/

18 Apr 2008 at 11:59 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

There is no doubt that under Ursan Blessing is a bad system. But there are reasons that specific classes like mesmers are left out of groups. What Anet should be doing is working on PvE-only skills that will give those classes something that will make them valuable in a group. PvE skills should be class specific skills that offer a unique ability on the level of importance of Ursan Blessing. This way, you wont destroy PvP because you are using PvE specific skills.

Profession exclusion is the problem of PUG mentality, not the actual skills.
Even todays UB problem is.
Before UB PUG groups were limited to certain professions, now they are but they require only two professions. Bear or monk.

A profession like mesmer has an excellent PvE skill, CoP, that turns it in a very powerfull nuker when combined with the right skills and some insight in when to use those.
However, this skill combination was there before EotN and was still ignored by every PUG player around.

As others stated on the forum a long time ago, PUGs are dead.
They died a long time ago for most things you can do in the game.
Only a few areas were populated enough to actually PUG. The other were empty or took a long time to get a team together.

UB changed this. You can PUG every elite area now.
But PUG mentality did not change. They still want that one profession with a certain build. Lucky that build is now one specific skill and not several skills.

Get over it, PUG was dead and UB revived it.
For those who don't want to play it nothing has changed.
It was hard to team in the past, it is hard to team now.

On topic: trying to make changes to PvP while not affecting PvE does say something about the PvE community.
They seem unable to change their gameplay.
Aegis to 15e? I use it on most of my monk bars and it will not have much effect.
I hardly ever have to switch to my normal energy set, most of the time I have a shield as offhand.
That's 12 energy doing nothing and in my recent monk bars there is not a single PvE skill.
High energy set? Have not used it in ages.
Yesterday monked a vanquish in Lornar's with guildies, North -> South.
Had some minor energy problems as was to be expected in a 6 player team.
But if I would have those problems all the time there would be something wrong with my build or the team build or play style.
If you can't monk like this either you are just a bad monk player or you need to organize your team better.

This is what bothers me about PvE.
People can't adapt to skill changes anymore, they 'need' specific builds to be able to do things.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

18 Apr 2008 at 12:08 - 43

I think eventually they'll realize it's not practical to use the same tools for two game modes that function differently.
They'll either make both game modes virtually identical, or use two sets of tools, or continue to do the dance of headaches.

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

18 Apr 2008 at 12:16 - 44

Until Anet decides to overhaul Ursan, the words "pve" and "balance" done belong in the same sentence.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

18 Apr 2008 at 12:18 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I think eventually they'll realize it's not practical to use the same tools for two game modes that function differently.
They'll either make both game modes virtually identical, or use two sets of tools, or continue to do the dance of headaches.

Actually, it is not a bad game modes if other MMORPG is copying it.

fowlero

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

England, UK

We Are The One And Only [rR]

18 Apr 2008 at 12:48 - 46

I'm a bit confused.

Are they going to revert the wards/spirits not affecting npc's in GvG because it affects pve!!?!11

This is the dumbest thing anet have ever done, balance is shot, dead and six feet under.

Darkobra

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Scotland

Type like an idiot, I'll treat you like an idiot

E/Me

18 Apr 2008 at 12:59 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

The whole game fails, get over it.

Exactly. At least they're learning from their mistakes and fixing this all in GW2. I hope.

And isn't it amazing how fast this turned into an Ursan thread? What was it? Two posts?

Kusandaa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

N/Mo

18 Apr 2008 at 13:01 - 48

Part of me can't help but smirk at this. I'm a PvE player and I'm kinda tired of seeing my skills constantly nerfed because PvP uses it... so for once I'm kinda glad to have some sort of revenge >_>.

The other part of me doesn't give a crap about it and will adjust with whatever happens. Anyways, it's what I've been doing for a long time and really, I find replacements when some skills aren't usable anymore. It's the only thing to do IMHO, and my use of Ancestor's Rage wouldn't have stopped by a 1s cast... >_>.

Sure sometimes it's disappointing, but eh, I move on.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

18 Apr 2008 at 13:05 - 49

Quote:

The whole game fails, get over it.

Not the whole game.

Well, I mean, yea.... Guild Wars is a crapfest these days, but the fundamentals are still strong. It's the overabundance of skills and the ridiculous level of competition in PvP that makes everything else stink to holy heaven.

It's kind of like the stock market, I think. Yea, the news is consistently bad, and to a laymen the game looks like utter sh** now, but to people who dig a little more into the details, it's a fundamentally good system, they just need to work out the flaws and get things back on track.

Granted, that won't happen with Guild Wars 1, but there's always hope for the sequel....

Quote:

It's the only thing to do IMHO...

Except many of us have sort of drifted away from the game now. I mean, look at all the people who admitted a few weeks ago that they basically just use the GW client as a really pretty 3D chat.

Quote:

"In order to reduce the possible negative impact on PvE play, we will be reverting the changes on May 1st. For future tournaments, we aim to focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all."

Ok. So they know these changes could have a negative impact on PvE. They make that statement to quiet the whiners (though they should have realized that most of the whiners don't bother taking the time to read things like that before posting, lol).

I read it. It says:

"In order to placate the screaming hordes of PvP while trying to appear that we give a flying ***k about anything else in the game, we're only going to irritate you for a few weeks this time rather than permanently. Here, have a carrot (sure it's rotten in and out, but it's still a carrot, right?) and shut up. We don't care what you think."

Of course, they didn't actually change anything I was using this time, and IMHO most of the changes this time were mostly inconsequential, but it's the fake "we care, we really do" that's annoying.

Either admit you don't care about anything but PvP, or just keep quiet. Don't patronize people with this wishy-washy garbage. If you want to run a fantasy-based based game for Halo nerds, fine. Just do it and say you're doing it and stop pretending it's anything else anymore so that people who don't think it's fun getting screamed at by thirteen year olds and grown men with too much spare time can avoid it.

ogre_jd

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Canadia

W/

18 Apr 2008 at 13:17 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

But there are reasons that specific classes like mesmers are left out of groups.

Yes. Because interrupt Mesmering, the main reason groups want one, takes a lot of skill, good timing & reflexes, good observational abilities, not to mention a thorough knowledge of skills (both player and monster) to play well. Even against bosses, where it is simplest, it's rather difficult unless the Mesmer has that last ability, otherwise they're stuck just spamming interrupts as they recharge. EDIT: Hero Mesmers seem to be far better in this role, though only when it comes to target acquisition and timing - they don't seem to have a clue about *which* skills they should bother to interrupt. But that still makes them better than the vast majority of humans trying to interrupt Mesmer.

Combat Mesmers, at least when I tried it ('cos I'm fully aware that I don't have the above listed skills/traits

), seem to get far less effective as you get further on in the campaigns, mainly due to the far larger number of creatures, and eventually Chaos Storm for when they get mobbed (since they're squishy) seems to be the best they can do most of the time, though they're still pretty good against bosses...

Buzzer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

Australia

18 Apr 2008 at 13:33 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Yes. Because interrupt Mesmering, the main reason groups want one, takes a lot of skill, good timing & reflexes, good observational abilities, not to mention a thorough knowledge of skills (both player and monster) to play well.

People don't take mesmers not because interrupting is hard, but because other professions are more efficient. Comparatively weak single-target damage and interrupts don't cut it.

DDL

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

18 Apr 2008 at 13:55 - 52

I begin to wonder who these "people" are, who are so restrictive about party compositions.

I suspect there are fewer of them than you think: you THINK there are a ton of them because, being stupidly picky about what sort of party they want, they are forced to spam for a lot longer, and a lot more frequently, for parties.

Less picky people take what party they can get, figure out how to make it work, and go with that. You won't notice them, of course, because they're not constantly spamming crap in the party search channel.

prism2525

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Among dead bodies.

The Republic of Sky Pirates

E/

18 Apr 2008 at 15:13 - 53

Can't they simply create a double of the skill and nerf that while making the other PvE-only? I mean come on it's a no-brainer to me. Who'd be so thick as to use a similar, weaker version of a skill?

By all means make them PvP-only if you think it might compromise "PvE balance" but do something.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

18 Apr 2008 at 15:21 - 54

In my opinion, the worst part about this is they spent 2 years screwing over pve in the name of pvp balance, and now....now they admit it's a bad thing to do.

Huge changes, done for the sake of balancing pvp, such as;
-nerfing soul reaping
-nerfing the number of minions allowed (combined with SR nerf took all fun out of necros)
-nerfing spirits (rits no longer fun)
-nerfing numerous monk healing skills (now, if you're not an HB monk, you're SOL)
-nerfing pets and splinter (rangers no longer fun)
-and so on....

all done to "balance" pvp, and yet, here we are today...pvp apparently still isn't balanced and pve has been reduced to an ursan fest because all other viable and fun builds have been reduced to crap.

gg a-net, gg.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

18 Apr 2008 at 15:35 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

In my opinion, the worst part about this is they spent 2 years screwing over pve in the name of pvp balance, and now....now they admit it's a bad thing to do.

Huge changes, done for the sake of balancing pvp, such as;
-nerfing soul reaping
-nerfing the number of minions allowed (combined with SR nerf took all fun out of necros)
-nerfing spirits (rits no longer fun)
-nerfing numerous monk healing skills (now, if you're not an HB monk, you're SOL)
-nerfing pets and splinter (rangers no longer fun)
-and so on....

all done to "balance" pvp, and yet, here we are today...pvp apparently still isn't balanced and pve has been reduced to an ursan fest because all other viable and fun builds have been reduced to crap.

gg a-net, gg.

Are you legitimately trying to argue that these things were not incredibly powerful in PvE to the point they warranted reduction as well?

You mention in your post you don't solidly know the state of PvP balance, and you evidently don't know enough skillbars to be able to think beyond Ursan. Why should ANet try to please you as a customer when clearly what you think and what the game is are unrelated concepts?

Hm, it's not fair to pick on you directly. Let me try to say this in more general terms.

1: PvE has not been wrecked by any change. Comparing early Guild Wars to now, PvE players have a far better arsenal. Changes relating to PvP are pretty much small rocks thrown in the ocean of skill imbalance that defines PvE.

2: The feedback of players who do not PvP should not be taken into account for balances that affect PvP. Before any statement is made saying that 'PvP players shouldn't get to choose what happens in PvE', try to remember that almost all PvP-oriented players have played and completed PvE.

Splitting the game might work, but then you end up with two separate games, compared to how PvE and PvP were linked by the storyline of GW. Would this damage new player accessibility to PvP, if they had to relearn the entire game? Maybe, I can't say for sure. Overall, either the game gets split or the crowd of players who don't play the entire game (you know who I'm referring to) get better and understand the importance of balance changes and how little they are really affected.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

18 Apr 2008 at 15:54 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Are you legitimately trying to argue that these things were not incredibly powerful in PvE to the point they warranted reduction as well?

You mention in your post you don't solidly know the state of PvP balance, and you evidently don't know enough skillbars to be able to think beyond Ursan. Why should ANet try to please you as a customer when clearly what you think and what the game is are unrelated concepts?

Did you even read my post, or just spew? Did I say they weren't overpowered compared to other builds? I said they were fun, and there was some variety in pugs. Now, because there is only one powerful build, there is no variety.

If you know anything about high end pve, you know it's all ursan. "Thinking beyond ursan" doesn't help you find a party. You might have the greatest assassin skill bar in the world, but if ursan isn't on it, you're not joining any pug. It's as simple as...if you aren't ursan or HB, you will spend hours trying to put together a party, and then give up in frustration.

The pve game (right now) is ursan. If you are arguing otherwise, you have no clue.

read, comprehend, then write.

ogre_jd

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Canadia

W/

18 Apr 2008 at 15:56 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

Less picky people take what party they can get, figure out how to make it work, and go with that. You won't notice them, of course, because they're not constantly spamming crap in the party search channel.

Mainly because they've finished the missions/quests with their sub-optimal groups and builds that many here constantly revile and have moved on to the next area.

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

18 Apr 2008 at 16:04 - 58

I think that A-nets intention is a good one, but they have made one fatal flaw:

Ursan, as long as this exists, balance in PvE cannot exist, but because of all the PvErs that want it A-net will never remove/nerf it, so basicly A-net are scarficing PvP balance for a pipe dream.

P.S: JR made a made a good suggestion or two in his thread on the subject.

Sab

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

18 Apr 2008 at 16:10 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

In my opinion, the worst part about this is they spent 2 years screwing over pve in the name of pvp balance, and now....now they admit it's a bad thing to do.

Huge changes, done for the sake of balancing pvp, such as;
-nerfing soul reaping
-nerfing the number of minions allowed (combined with SR nerf took all fun out of necros)
-nerfing spirits (rits no longer fun)
-nerfing numerous monk healing skills (now, if you're not an HB monk, you're SOL)
-nerfing pets and splinter (rangers no longer fun)
-and so on....

all done to "balance" pvp, and yet, here we are today...pvp apparently still isn't balanced and pve has been reduced to an ursan fest because all other viable and fun builds have been reduced to crap.

gg a-net, gg.

Just about every build is viable in PvE. It just so happens that they don't fit your arbitrary definition of "fun". You're pretty much blaming PvE Ursan-fest on PvP when it's clearly Ursan that's the problem.

Angelic Upstart

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

South Coast UK

[SBS] [RETIRED]

W/E

18 Apr 2008 at 16:10 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

And isn't it amazing how fast this turned into an Ursan thread? What was it? Two posts?

That is probably because Ursan Blessing, is right now the most massively overpowered and ridiculous pos skill, ever to have seen daylight in this game.
While i personally hope it gets nerfed to hell and back , i am resigned to the fact that it probably wont even get a second look....

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

18 Apr 2008 at 16:13 - 61

The reason this has turned into an "Ursan thread" is because this is a thread about balance in PvE and PvP, and, unless you've been in a cave on Mars for the past year, you will know that Ursan is a big issue concerning in PvE balance and PvE in general.

CagedinSanity

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Away from you.

W/

18 Apr 2008 at 16:14 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

Now, we have only steamroll pve teams, and that is a problem. (80% of the teams are ursan users)

OH, RIGHT. Because high-end areas take up 80% of the game, right?

You can hate UB all you want but don't make exaggerated percentages of the games content. There are plenty of areas without ursan, doesn't need ursan, and people that don't have it or never heard of it. Plenty.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

18 Apr 2008 at 16:14 - 63

That little note at the end has me depressed. My favorite thing about this game is (was) the constant skill changes. It's always fun to throw together new builds. Apparently that part of the game is dead now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Splitting the game might work, but then you end up with two separate games, compared to how PvE and PvP were linked by the storyline of GW. Would this damage new player accessibility to PvP, if they had to relearn the entire game? Maybe, I can't say for sure. Overall, either the game gets split or the crowd of players who don't play the entire game (you know who I'm referring to) get better and understand the importance of balance changes and how little they are really affected.

I'm against splitting for a couple reasons. First, random skill changes to PvE from PvP problems are fun. They keep things fresh and interesting. Second, I play both PvE and PvP. If the game modes were split, there would be no real way to play both, since they'd be two different games. I'd prefer not having to choose between two games I love.

DarkWasp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

Paradise

Agency Of Forbidden Fruits [Oot]

R/A

18 Apr 2008 at 16:18 - 64

PvE doesnt need balance in the same way that PvP does.

Edge of Extinction for example... get rid the freaking 90% rule! I remember when that didn't exist, it was one of the most FUN skills to use in PvE. Ofcoarse Balance is needed in PvP so they nerfed it, now it doesnt even get used, they might as well remove it or switch it to PvE only and get rid of the 90% rule.

The only balance that PvE needs, and this one hits me hard ALL THE TIME, is economy to proffesions. This makes no sense AT ALL.

Monks: They have like 1400 farming builds, but they get all the good drops in PuGs.

Rangers: Have like maybe 10 currently working farming builds and its usualy very hit'n'run based, but in PuGs "OMG THE RANGER GOT A KEY! BLASPHEMY THATS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN"

I've been in the game for over three years and i've seen this happen way too much.

Theres also long term loot-scaling, if you've had a character for over a year and play alot, forget about getting drops on him. This game remembers you entering a explorable from months ago.

(Heres where people REALLY start hating me)

Ursan Haters: Seriously wtf? No one told you you had to use it. If you think its borring and takes no skill, then kudos to you for usinging something else. However, ursan or not, finding a group won't be easy at all. By that I mean, if they removed ursan, PuG's would dissapear again.

All Ursan does is make the game easy enough for the common idiot to suceed in a group. (Yes the idiots are common). Back in the day there was about a 50% chance of getting an 8-man group that would make it to the armorer in FoW.

Now without Ursan theres like a 9% chance, maybe... (I tried 2 non ursan groups, I figured they wanted to play the game skillfully they must have skill. Nope..)

CagedinSanity

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Away from you.

W/

18 Apr 2008 at 16:22 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWasp

Ursan Haters: Seriously wtf? No one told you you had to use it. If you think its borring and takes no skill, then kudos to you for usinging something else. However, ursan or not, finding a group won't be easy at all. By that I mean, if they removed ursan, PuG's would dissapear again.

As an ursan-lover, I disagree. People would still have to PuG to do certain things, especially in GWEN.

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

18 Apr 2008 at 16:23 - 66

We all know that there are games out there were PvP and PvE work with the same skills.

One example might be the game starting with the letter "W".
There are of course skills that work only in PvE. Taunts e.g..

We should wonder if the approach was okay at all, having many skills and then nerfing 90% to rubbish, trying to balance the remaining ones.

I hope they have better skill/class balance in GW2, less skills, but more quality. Without the need for eternal fiddling around.

Maybe they should also think again about their priorities and either make a PvP game or make a PvE game with some PvP content, I would prefer the latter. And it seems they are going that way with the world battles and so on.

But the funny thing is, big announcement:

WE CARE ABOUT PVE BALANCE

And nothing else. I wonder what will come out of this! The general idea sounds good. GW is full of generally cool ideas, but then it starts to get worse.

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

18 Apr 2008 at 16:42 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

That little note at the end has me depressed. My favorite thing about this game is (was) the constant skill changes. It's always fun to throw together new builds. Apparently that part of the game is dead now.

I'm against splitting for a couple reasons. First, random skill changes to PvE from PvP problems are fun. They keep things fresh and interesting. Second, I play both PvE and PvP. If the game modes were split, there would be no real way to play both, since they'd be two different games. I'd prefer not having to choose between two games I love.

i agree 100% with this statement.

i play both, and to me, its totally unfair to split the game into a steeper competitive learning progression.

imagine playing in pve with a 5e aegis, that recharges in 10 seconds, lasting for 10 seconds, casting in 1 second.. then going to ra, using the same skills in your skillbar, and seeing aegis morph into 30 energy, 4 seconds, in earshot, 50 second recharge..

its extreme, but im trying to exaggerate to serve a purpose. i simply feel that the developers have let the game get very very bogged down and fat with imbalance and poor community relations. the pvp'ers have every right to want change to the moves THEY exploit into oblivion, but the pve'ers are tired of the same stale ursan junk, or 5 or 6 "good" pve builds.

the game simply needs some new light, on some old skills, and some closure to the smash the keys, lack of creativity based pve AND pvp....

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

18 Apr 2008 at 17:04 - 68

Quote:

We all know that there are games out there were PvP and PvE work with the same skills.

I played World of Failcraft for about four months once. I suffered ONE major set of changes to my class in that time, and had to look back several months before I started for the last time it had happened.

In Guild Wars, significant skill and/or profession nerfs are common enough that the regular weekly or bi-weekly changes can destroy entire skillbars after only a month or two.

The PvP world in Guild Wars is hypercompetetive, while In WoW it's much more casual. That puts an entirely different set of demands on ANET than the demands WoW's PvP places on Blizzard.

By effectively creating a fantasy version of Halo Live, ANET has taken MMORPG to a whole new level, and I don't think that they can make it work the same way other MMOs have made their PvE and PvP worlds work.

Besides, Blizzard's class balancing is terrible. Want to win? Roll a paladin, pop up your invincible bubble and wail away at basically anything on the game map with impunity (at least, that's how it was while I still played more than a year ago).

Quote:

My favorite thing about this game is (was) the constant skill changes.

As a counterbalance to your opinion, my opinion: I don't like constant skills changes.

I like to play Guild Wars, and I don't mind the challenge that was posed by new challenges requiring skillbar tweaking, but I don't want to have to constantly change my skillbar just because it was broken due to an aspect of play I don't even care to participate in. I don't have tons of obligations, but I don't want to sit in front of Guild Wars for an hour just constantly shifting skill icons around because of a PvP nerf, either. It's just frustrating to me, and, frankly, I can think of more entertaining things to do with my time.

Of course, for perspective, I preferred to play casually toward the end of my stint in the game. Other people who are more intense about their video games and don't mind spending hours a day probably have much less of a problem with the constant tweaking than I do.

Lordhelmos

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Sentients of Shadow (noir)

Me/E

18 Apr 2008 at 17:16 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I played World of Failcraft for about four months once. I suffered ONE major set of changes to my class in that time, and had to look back several months before I started for the last time it had happened.

In Guild Wars, significant skill and/or profession nerfs are common enough that the regular weekly or bi-weekly changes can destroy entire skillbars after only a month or two.

The PvP world in Guild Wars is hypercompetetive, while In WoW it's much more casual. That puts an entirely different set of demands on ANET than the demands WoW's PvP places on Blizzard.

By effectively creating a fantasy version of Halo Live, ANET has taken MMORPG to a whole new level, and I don't think that they can make it work the same way other MMOs have made their PvE and PvP worlds work.

Besides, Blizzard's class balancing is terrible. Want to win? Roll a paladin, pop up your invincible bubble and wail away at basically anything on the game map with impunity (at least, that's how it was while I still played more than a year ago).

As a counterbalance to your opinion, my opinion: I don't like constant skills changes.

I like to play Guild Wars, and I don't mind the challenge that was posed by new challenges requiring skillbar tweaking, but I don't want to have to constantly change my skillbar just because it was broken due to an aspect of play I don't even care to participate in. I don't have tons of obligations, but I don't want to sit in front of Guild Wars for an hour just constantly shifting skill icons around because of a PvP nerf, either. It's just frustrating to me, and, frankly, I can think of more entertaining things to do with my time.

Of course, for perspective, I preferred to play casually toward the end of my stint in the game. Other people who are more intense about their video games and don't mind spending hours a day probably have much less of a problem with the constant tweaking than I do.

I think this is an unfair comparison because you forget that in Guildwars, you require a party to do anything. In other MMORPGs, you could pretty much wander around the world with any class you want partied or not. However, Guildwars forces you into a cooperative team in order to tackle every obstacle the game has to offer, which makes skill balancing in Guildwars more important in comparison to a game like WoW.

Classes like mesmers and assassins, who, are neglected when it comes to offering a valuable function to a group, end up stuck worse gaming experience in comparison to other classes like monks and warriors to which the game is biased to.

If this game was anything like WoW and free from the constraints of a forced party then the arguement would carry more weight, but because of the very nature of the game, constant skill balancing is required in order to ensure that each class gets a fair chance at being selected to a party.

But the worse part of it is, balancers failed at realizing how important it is that each class have an important role to the party, so the majority of players attached to neglected classes are now forced to play solo with H/H or select a secondary and play a poor man's nuker, tank, or healer because the "balance" that is needed to prevent this scenario just isn't there.

Because of this I think that players are justified at being angry at the system. Players only have so much patience and hope that the problems that plague their class and get them kicked out of parties will see the light of day, but its like Anet has official come out and said:

Nah, we give up and it's not gonna happen.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

18 Apr 2008 at 17:30 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I don't have tons of obligations, but I don't want to sit in front of Guild Wars for an hour just constantly shifting skill icons around because of a PvP nerf, either. It's just frustrating to me, and, frankly, I can think of more entertaining things to do with my time.

I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you would be playing a game with an enormous skill system and free respecs, but never want to use it. Creating new bars and executing them, is, to me, the very core of the game. Everything else is just fancy graphics.

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

18 Apr 2008 at 17:37 - 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you would be playing a game with an enormous skill system and free respecs, but never want to use it. Creating new bars and executing them, is, to me, the very core of the game. Everything else is just fancy graphics.

i agree... again.. since when did you and i have so much in common... lol

MetalMan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

Some Guild.

W/Mo

18 Apr 2008 at 17:37 - 72

Ok, to end all of the Ursan stuff:

Once Ursan goes, people will revert back to the Holy trinity. Maybe your Rit build can outdamage an ele, but who cares, eles = flaemz = winz0rz. Ursan has only let underused profs have a chance. Like or or not, its Ursan or the Holy Trinity.

R.Shayne

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

18 Apr 2008 at 17:39 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Splitting the game might work, but then you end up with two separate games, compared to how PvE and PvP were linked by the storyline of GW. Would this damage new player accessibility to PvP, if they had to relearn the entire game? Maybe, I can't say for sure. Overall, either the game gets split or the crowd of players who don't play the entire game (you know who I'm referring to) get better and understand the importance of balance changes and how little they are really affected.

Can't split the game not enough people playing pvp only to net a profit and eventually they would have to close the PvP only servers which I feel would be a bad thing since some people enjoy playing only pvp.

Can't keep balancing a game for a vocal minority either, eventually you loose the most profitable part of your business model.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

18 Apr 2008 at 17:42 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i agree... again.. since when did you and i have so much in common... lol

GET OUT OF MY HEAD

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

18 Apr 2008 at 17:43 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalMan

Ok, to end all of the Ursan stuff:

Once Ursan goes, people will revert back to the Holy trinity. Maybe your Rit build can outdamage an ele, but who cares, eles = flaemz = winz0rz. Ursan has only let underused profs have a chance. Like or or not, its Ursan or the Holy Trinity.

or..... they could simply rework older, unused or "bad" skills into decent/good ones, and balance the game accordingly, allowing more creativity...

also... bad players use HTrinity style play... simple as that... and we're not here to talk about them....

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

18 Apr 2008 at 17:45 - 76

Quote:

I think this is an unfair comparison because you forget that in Guildwars, you require a party to do anything.

That's a very pertinent observation and only furthers my point: GW and WoW (and the various WoW-clones) just place entirely different demands regarding skill changes on their respective overseers.

Quote:

I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you would be playing a game with an enormous skill system and free respecs, but never want to use it.

It's not a black or white issue. It's not that I don't EVER want to respec within the system, and I said as much. I do enjoy the challenge posed by new areas, new monsters, etc. What I don't enjoy is having to stop whatever process I was in and respec things because the PvP world forced a change to skills. For example, I was back in GWEN with my Warrior when they finally completely broke Watch Yourself! It was a very effective skill for keeping dumb H/Hs alive in PvE, but became useless after the Paragon nerfing. That's not a challenge, that's just frustrating, and I just have no will what-so-ever to go back and respec just because of it (nor do I care to drag my idiotic H/Hs along like bloated logs behind me because they no longer are able to survive when they run into a corner and get wailed on). I could respec to keep them alive, I just don't want to because I wanted to actually get somewhere in the actual game.

In other words, once I figure out how to work through an area, I want to get to the next area and try something new, I don't want to have to screw around in the same place because of something completely unrelated to the challenges posed by the environment, MOBs, etc.

Respeccing for new challenges in the actual game, I don't mind. I just don't want to have to also respec on top of that just because a skill nerf for PvP had a serious effect on that skill's usefulness in PvE.

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

18 Apr 2008 at 17:49 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

That's a very pertinent observation and only furthers my point: GW and WoW (and the various WoW-clones) just place entirely different demands regarding skill changes on their respective overseers.

It's not a black or white issue. It's not that I don't EVER want to respec within the system, and I said as much. I do enjoy the challenge posed by new areas, new monsters, etc. What I don't enjoy is having to stop whatever process I was in and respec things because the PvP world forced a change to skills. For example, I was back in GWEN with my Warrior when they finally completely broke Watch Yourself! It was a very effective skill for keeping dumb H/Hs alive in PvE, but became useless after the Paragon nerfing. That's not a challenge, that's just frustrating, and I just have no will what-so-ever to go back and respec just because of it (nor do I care to drag my idiotic H/Hs along like bloated logs behind me because they no longer are able to survive when they run into a corner and get wailed on). I could respec to keep them alive, I just don't want to because I wanted to actually get somewhere in the actual game.

Respeccing for new challenges in the actual game, I don't mind. I just don't want to have to also respec on top of that just because a skill nerf for PvP had a serious effect on that skill's usefulness in PvE.

thats the point I'm trying to make...

too many trash skills, so few good ones, due to the nature and abuse of skills in pvp, limits the pool of stuff you can really use in all forms of play, both pve and pvp...

i vote we reconstruct the old unused skills into usable, workable, meshable skills, to reignite both the pvp and pve world, for creativity and freshness sake.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

18 Apr 2008 at 17:52 - 78

Quote:

too many trash skills, so few good ones, due to the nature and abuse of skills in pvp, limits the pool of stuff you can really use in all forms of play, both pve and pvp...

Agreed, though I would argue it's just too many skills, period. Part of the problem, I think, is that the interactions between the hundreds of different skills are just so insanely complex now that there is no reasonable way to expect anybody at ANET or anywhere else to be able to nerf and buff things in a way that won't just create new abuses that replace the old ones.

I mean, it's not even really abuse in PvP. You can't fault people for using what works. It's just that this is a video game, so it's ruled by a rigid and inescapable logic, and unless you can instantly see and understand the entire tree of interactions (which, obviously, you can't), you can't make a change to one skill without having an unforeseen impact on another.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

18 Apr 2008 at 17:53 - 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

But the funny thing is, big announcement:

WE CARE ABOUT PVE BALANCE

I only read the first and last page, so forgive me if I repeat anything.

Firstly, GW has been out for almost 3 years now. This is the first time in the entire duration of the game that Anet has said they care about PVE balance. Up untill now, they didnt care in the slightest bit how their PVP skill balances affected PVE. They just nerfed everything and anything that was overused in PVP, and players in the PVE community that were upset by this would just constantly be told to 'Adapt to it and learn to play the game nub'.

So why, all of a sudden, do Anet finally care about PVE balance?

My answer - All the ranting over Ursan we have seen and had to put up with over the last several weeks. Ursan is the FIRST PVE related issue that created such a huge debate. Some people love it, some people hete it (like Marmite o.O).

The ones that love it generally say 'We dont care about balance in PVE'. The ones that hate it say 'We care about balance in PVE'.

And now Anet also cares about balance in PVE???? Lolwut, you still havnt touched freaking Ursan and you have the balls to make that statement.

If Anet do truly care about balance in PVE now, after nearly 3 years of the game running, then it is very safe to assume that Ursan is going to get a big nerfage soon. But that nerf will happen AFTER EOTN stops selling copies. People are buying EOTN for the skills, and likely now PVE players are buying it for Ursan. Once it stops selling, expect your Ursan shit to get nerfed.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

18 Apr 2008 at 18:13 - 80

They cared about PvE balance with some of the Kurzick and Sunspear Skills, I don't see why this is startling news.