Thw world after tommorow - bringing PvE into the balance equation. - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

21 Apr 2008 at 14:35 - 201

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Community has everything to do with pvp downfall. When someone tries pvp and they are immediately subjected to that kind of language for doing nothing wrong then I am pretty sure they don't want to come back for more. I have played pvp in other games and never had to deal with this type of language or subjected others to this type of language. PvP elitest did it to themselves and now they can deal with diminishing player base.

People are jerks on the internet. It's not unique to PvP either, there are plenty of rude jerks in PvE as well. The best advice I can give you is to grow a thicker skin or to give up playing with random people.

R.Shayne

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

21 Apr 2008 at 15:19 - 202

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

People are jerks on the internet. It's not unique to PvP either, there are plenty of rude jerks in PvE as well. The best advice I can give you is to grow a thicker skin or to give up playing with random people.

So I should avoid playing in Random groups (pugs) and avoid pvp all together. Totally agree with you on that and it would seem the majority of guildwars have come to the same conclusion.

Separating pvp / pve is not the answer since some people enjoy playing pvp and pve. Whether pvp could survive on its own is not really a question here since some whom only play pve have also tried pvp at one point with mixed results. I know my wife and I came away from pvp with similar experience but we both tried HH, AB, RA, Team arenas at least once and she still does the holiday arenas.

I don't have a solution for the problems with pvp but I do know that you can not keep upsetting the majority of your market (pve) to satasfiy a vocal minority (pvp), just bad business and does not lead to repeat customers.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

21 Apr 2008 at 16:05 - 203

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

So I should avoid playing in Random groups (pugs) and avoid pvp all together. Totally agree with you on that and it would seem the majority of guildwars have come to the same conclusion.

Sure, you can curl up by yourself and never leave your comfort zone. You can avoid playing with anyone you don't know. That's certainly an option. However, for every asshole I've met ingame I've met a person I get along really well with - this is true for PvE and PvP. It's not worth it to let the idiots ruin your game for you.

Plus, it's really, really funny if you think that there's a real person behind some keyboard, desperately struggling to string together a coherent sentence. Try subjecting their words to a dramatic reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

I don't have a solution for the problems with pvp but I do know that you can not keep upsetting the majority of your market (pve) to satasfiy a vocal minority (pvp), just bad business and does not lead to repeat customers.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be as much of a seperation. To bring up a tired old point, it was originally intended that PvP be the endgame. On paper, it's a nice idea - people will play PvP indefinitely without the addition of new content, all you need is skill balance. Sadly, it didn't catch on very well, and they began to make a real PvE endgame with the elite missions, Nightfall, and GW:EN.

The best solution, which has already been mentioned, is to make PvE gameplay more like PvP gameplay. Instead of huge stat-pumping mobs, 8 monster mobs with good skillbars and good AI. Naturally, it will always be easier than playing against real humans, but the closer the mechanics are, the closer the gametypes will be.

Buster

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Elona

Clan Eternal Legion

D/W

21 Apr 2008 at 16:08 - 204

This is nothing new really. Since day 1 this game has always been promoted as a pvp game and pretty much all changes to skills have been for pvp purposes. So nothing shocking here.

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

21 Apr 2008 at 16:14 - 205

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

...In a perfect world, there wouldn't be as much of a seperation. To bring up a tired old point, it was originally intended that PvP be the endgame. On paper, it's a nice idea - people will play PvP indefinitely without the addition of new content, all you need is skill balance. Sadly, it didn't catch on very well, and they began to make a real PvE endgame with the elite missions, Nightfall, and GW:EN.

The best solution, which has already been mentioned, is to make PvE gameplay more like PvP gameplay. Instead of huge stat-pumping mobs, 8 monster mobs with good skillbars and good AI. Naturally, it will always be easier than playing against real humans, but the closer the mechanics are, the closer the gametypes will be.

There is one problem with that: Time. GvG is arbitrarily limited to roughly 20 minutes through VoD. You couldn´t do that in PvE. So how many xx minutes fights would players enjoy, just to get from A to B??

Add in DP and the fun stops completly.

around

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Aussie Trolling Crew - Diplomatic Embassy

I Have Three Pennies [Pnny] - forever in my heart <3

R/

21 Apr 2008 at 16:22 - 206

So far in this thread I've seen far more hate (as in actualy baseless loathing) directed at PvP'ers than PvE'rs.

coincidence?

Quote:

There is one problem with that: Time. GvG is arbitrarily limited to roughly 20 minutes through VoD. You couldn´t do that in PvE. So how many 15 minutes fights would players enjoy, just to get from A to B??

It could be done like HA:

Team A: zomg they have AoE lets all ball up.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

21 Apr 2008 at 16:35 - 207

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

There is one problem with that: Time. GvG is arbitrarily limited to roughly 20 minutes through VoD. You couldn´t do that in PvE. So how many xx minutes fights would players enjoy, just to get from A to B??

Add in DP and the fun stops completly.

To be honest, I have no idea, I'm not a game designer.

Off the top of my head, the HA model seems like a decent place to start - teams gradually increasing in skill, with large morale boosts between fights to clear DP. As quickly as everyone murders the Zaishen now, I think that's actually a decent model of how PvE should be.

To keep rolling with it, PvE GvG would be larger maps with scattered, stationary targets and several secondary objectives. A single enemy team would be enough here.

PvE AB would be, well, almost the same. PvE based more strongly on skirmishes and splitting up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

So the necro and elementalist were right to talk to me that way because I was using Broad Head and chocking gas on them, I mean I would have just kept moving to avoid being hit but that is just me. Why move when you can pm insults instead.

They're morons. Many people have a little griefer inside of them that takes sick pleasure at beating the pants off a mean and stupid player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

It is turned off and my ignore list has been full for sometime.

A full ignore list? I've never had more than a single person on my ignore list, and I constantly need to delete names on my friendlist to add new people.

I don't mean to be presumptuous here, but it sounds as if you just don't enjoy playing with other people. That's really ok, some people play games as a way to cool off and not have to deal with other people. Hell, I play single player games for just that reason.

I'm sort of curious now - given the popularity of heroes+henchies in PvE, and the relative unpopularity of hero battles, is it possible that people playing PvP are looking for a more social experience, while people playing PvE are looking for a more relaxing experience by themselves or with close friends? Discuss.

EDIT #2: Huh, didn't know they added a delete function. Pretty sure that wasn't always there.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

21 Apr 2008 at 16:54 - 208

Quote:

Ah. I think I've found your problem.

And if it's a problem shared by significant other numbers, it also becomes ANET's problem.

My opinion doesn't matter. My opinion shared by 1.5 million other people, however, does. Obviously there are enough people who care enough about the way PvE functions that it matters to ANET. It's obvious in the design of both Nightfall and GWEN that there's enough pushback from PvE to influence the way the game works.

To what extent it matters, however, I don't know. I do know that if GW2 doesn't do enough to address the PvE burn out problem caused by the current defective munging of PvP and PvE, it's going to seriously dampen my enthusiasm for anything new the game offers. Whether that's just a handful of people, or half the game's population that feels that way is yet to be seen.

I can't think of a single game that has focused solely on online PvP play that has been successful to date. Counter-Strike: Source is the only real example, and it didn't have to actually go through the entire, expensive development process, so most of the $20 box fee is profit for Valve.

Maybe ANET and some PvPers think Guild Wars can be that first game, but I don't.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

21 Apr 2008 at 17:04 - 209

Many games that had PvP only added PvE later on.

For example, Guntz.

Why is that? Because people like mindless killing sprees as much as they like balanced fights.

Kyp Jade

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2006

USA

Lack of Talent [Luck]

P/

21 Apr 2008 at 17:20 - 210

I think this title is misleading, bringing pve into the balance equation pretty much means there is no balancing to be done.

And once upon a time, wayyyy back in prophecies days, the majority of people looked forward to skill updates. You know, back when there were 6-9 international HA districts, every mission area, including the jungle had at least 1 full district.

Most of those players that 'deal with the changes' are long gone, quit early factions days in fact. All that remains are people that whine about skill balance, or offer suggestions about skill balance in the mindset that they are the smartest people around. Obviously the whiners are worthless and the people that offer changes probably should take a step back more often than not.

But, now the PvP'ers get to adopt the long used mantra of the PvE playerbase against the PvP players ^.^

"Those whiners should just learn to adapt to circumstances and shut up, they are ruining our gameplay"

---
Further, I largely suspect there will be no skill balance changes at all. I mean never again, so discussion problems is moot, and whiners get thier wish. When they say balancing will be done to not mess with pve concerns, that means no balancing is done.

I wish I could find that Jeff Strain quote where he talks about not only creating the game, but maintaining it. I wonder how far his views have changed...

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

21 Apr 2008 at 17:22 - 211

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

So the necro and elementalist were right to talk to me that way because I was using Broad Head and chocking gas on them, I mean I would have just kept moving to avoid being hit but that is just me. Why move when you can pm insults instead.

Hmm, I think we are talking about slightly different aspects of PvP. I am in no way excusing trash talking, even though technically it is one of the (psychological) tools at your disposal to try to win. If you defeat someone and they call you names, you can either take it as a well earned notch on your belt, or simply play on do-not-disturb (which is what I do in TA and HA).

However, if you enter PvP with your favorite PvE build and are immediately and ruthlessly demolished, then that is the system working as designed.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

21 Apr 2008 at 17:53 - 212

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

To be honest, I have no idea, I'm not a game designer.

Off the top of my head, the HA model seems like a decent place to start - teams gradually increasing in skill, with large morale boosts between fights to clear DP. As quickly as everyone murders the Zaishen now, I think that's actually a decent model of how PvE should be.

To keep rolling with it, PvE GvG would be larger maps with scattered, stationary targets and several secondary objectives. A single enemy team would be enough here.

PvE AB would be, well, almost the same. PvE based more strongly on skirmishes and splitting up.

They're morons. Many people have a little griefer inside of them that takes sick pleasure at beating the pants off a mean and stupid player.

A full ignore list? I've never had more than a single person on my ignore list, and I constantly need to delete names on my friendlist to add new people.

I don't mean to be presumptuous here, but it sounds as if you just don't enjoy playing with other people. That's really ok, some people play games as a way to cool off and not have to deal with other people. Hell, I play single player games for just that reason.

I'm sort of curious now - given the popularity of heroes+henchies in PvE, and the relative unpopularity of hero battles, is it possible that people playing PvP are looking for a more social experience, while people playing PvE are looking for a more relaxing experience by themselves or with close friends? Discuss.

EDIT #2: Huh, didn't know they added a delete function. Pretty sure that wasn't always there.

Some interesting ideas, but I think A-net learned it's lesson with Factions. For the most part, pve'ers are not interested in playing pvp type games, no matter how it is dressed up or disguised. The Luxon vs Kurzik games were basically dead within a month of release. If you think otherwise go try and join a match in the Jade Quarry or better yet...please explain why nothing even remotely close was included in Nightfall or GWEN.

I think "the statement" speaks volumes, A-net knows where the money is, and they're going to do what they need to make sure GW2 sells. Continually pissing off their largest market in the months leading up to GW2 is not the way to do that, and they know it.

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

21 Apr 2008 at 17:55 - 213

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

I think this title is misleading, bringing pve into the balance equation pretty much means there is no balancing to be done.

And once upon a time, wayyyy back in prophecies days, the majority of people looked forward to skill updates. You know, back when there were 6-9 international HA districts, every mission area, including the jungle had at least 1 full district.

Most of those players that 'deal with the changes' are long gone, quit early factions days in fact. All that remains are people that whine about skill balance, or offer suggestions about skill balance in the mindset that they are the smartest people around. Obviously the whiners are worthless and the people that offer changes probably should take a step back more often than not.

But, now the PvP'ers get to adopt the long used mantra of the PvE playerbase against the PvP players ^.^

"Those whiners should just learn to adapt to circumstances and shut up, they are ruining our gameplay"

---
Further, I largely suspect there will be no skill balance changes at all. I mean never again, so discussion problems is moot, and whiners get thier wish. When they say balancing will be done to not mess with pve concerns, that means no balancing is done.

I wish I could find that Jeff Strain quote where he talks about not only creating the game, but maintaining it. I wonder how far his views have changed...

not only do i disagree with your overall negative outlook on the general community (especially pve'ers), i seriously doubt that this was our last update ever.

whitedragon

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

Golden Dragons of Tyria (G0ID)

N/E

21 Apr 2008 at 22:42 - 214

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

But, now the PvP'ers get to adopt the long used mantra of the PvE playerbase against the PvP players ^.^

"Those whiners should just learn to adapt to circumstances and shut up, they are ruining our gameplay"

OMG That is sooo QFT

I remember so many times reading this and thinking (just wait your time will come) lmao

and it is the truth you should just adapt and if you can't geee maybe you should find a new game to play.......lmao

P.S. Oh and let me guess none of you pvpers have never said that.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

21 Apr 2008 at 23:13 - 215

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

So I should avoid playing in Random groups (pugs) and avoid pvp all together. Totally agree with you on that and it would seem the majority of guildwars have come to the same conclusion.

If you can't deal with annoying people you should avoid the internet altogether. Actually, you should curl up and avoid life altogether. I have met just as many (if not more) annoying people in PvE than I have in PvP. Just the nature of the beast. PvP just has a bad rep for some reason because its something people can blame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

I think this title is misleading, bringing pve into the balance equation pretty much means there is no balancing to be done.

Very good statement. There has been loads of discussion on why PvE balance doesn't exist in the way we are talking about it in the other thread.

la_cabra_de_vida

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Great Soviet California!

Deputy Glitter's Shoe Squad [ghey]

Me/

21 Apr 2008 at 23:38 - 216

Pve'ers are so obsessed with their "Lets do Fow in 5 minutes!" build, nerfs to any skills and its the end of the world. Deal with it. Pve is pve, you versus a bunch of dumb npcs.

Buster

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Elona

Clan Eternal Legion

D/W

21 Apr 2008 at 23:50 - 217

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

Pve'ers are so obsessed with their "Lets do Fow in 5 minutes!" build, nerfs to any skills and its the end of the world. Deal with it. Pve is pve, you versus a bunch of dumb npcs.

Yes it takes so much skill to look up pvp builds on pvxwiki that so many pvper's use. Load to template ftw!

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

21 Apr 2008 at 23:59 - 218

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

Yes it takes so much skill to look up pvp builds on pvxwiki that so many pvper's use. Load to template ftw!

If it's so easy, why aren't you farming the halls chest?

Horseman Of War

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

The Cult of Doom

P/

22 Apr 2008 at 00:07 - 219

The community is so unimaginative, that we cant even come up with builds that are better than 5 ursans & 3 monks. Its no different than the old DoA build with obsidian tank and meteor shower.. One could argue that meteor shower or bonder monks unbalanced gameplay. Its all crap. I look at wiki builds like the Focus Anger/Save Yourself or the jagged mm with prot spirit and aegis and I RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing laugh.

Everyone is a close-minded sheep these days. Baaaah I have Splinter Barrage Baaah. U got HB? ::drools on shirt:: Woot gogo kick the mesmer lets go.

That is what is wrong with gw.

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

22 Apr 2008 at 00:16 - 220

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

Yes it takes so much skill to look up pvp builds on pvxwiki that so many pvper's use. Load to template ftw!

and which top PvP guild are you in again?

Aba

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2006

Vancouver,Canada

22 Apr 2008 at 00:26 - 221

Quote:

Everyone is a close-minded sheep these days. Baaaah I have Splinter Barrage Baaah. U got HB? ::drools on shirt:: Woot gogo kick the mesmer lets go.

That is what is wrong with gw.

You sir are a riot,PvE at its best

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

22 Apr 2008 at 00:45 - 222

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseman Of War

The community is so unimaginative, that we cant even come up with builds that are better than 5 ursans & 3 monks. ....

That's an easy one, 6 ursan and 2 monks. 3 monks is a waste of killing power. Any FoW group with 3 monks is noob. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseman of War

...Woot gogo kick the mesmer lets go.

and that's different than pvp how? Oh wait, the mesmer never gets a group. my bad.

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

22 Apr 2008 at 00:48 - 223

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

That's an easy one, 6 ursan and 2 monks. 3 monks is a waste of killing power. Any FoW group with 3 monks is noob. :P

hahahaha

....
....
....

its funny cause its sad...

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

22 Apr 2008 at 00:49 - 224

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

hahahaha

....
....
....

its funny cause its sad...

I agree, but unfortunately its the truth.

R.Shayne

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

22 Apr 2008 at 03:31 - 225

Instead of nerfing the heck out of a skill so that is no longer over used in pvp and adversely affect pve, why not temporarily remove the skill from pvp and force other builds to be used for a while.

I still believe that unlocking skill bars in pvp and make it so skills can be changed during matches is the only way to ensure no build cannot be countered but I don't know if that feature could be added to the game.

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

22 Apr 2008 at 03:36 - 226

The point of the skillbar is that you make decisions about those 8 skills you bring. Removing that blows up balance and requires a total redesign of the game.

Also, since it cannot be repeated enough, that something can be countered doesn't make it balanced.

Makkert

Black Beast of Aarrrrgghh

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

The Biggyverse [PLEB] // Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

22 Apr 2008 at 04:37 - 227

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I still think the worst idea in GW history was the PvE only skills. They broke the game.

Your logic is flawed. PvE only skills are a great idea. The fact that their current execution is not the best (using an understatement), is a different matter. The idea is still good. It enables ANet to fill the very different needs of the Pve / PvP crowd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I also still think uncoupling PvE and PvP is a fundamentally idiotic idea.

I disagree. See above. It would be nice however, if PvE players are at least able to play with the same skills as used in PvP while playing PvE, so that they can get used to the skills. So, basicly as it is now. But I don't know if it will remain this way, pondering over the meaning of the dev update notes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

we DO have PvP only skills:

Frenzy for example.

While some may use it in PvE, I think this is close to the truth. People make too much fuzz about 'pve only' skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

There is even PvE-only version of this skill (Flail)

And here you just nullified your previous intelligent remark, by making a statement that is far off the truth. Just watch the hammer warriors in pvp.

Quote:

In order to reduce the possible negative impact on PvE play, we will be reverting the changes on May 1st. For future tournaments, we aim to focus on changes that will not impact PvE play at all.

It would be nice to hear from an ANet source exactly how they want to realise this in the future. There are some good ways to realise this (unlock pvp / pve) and some terrible ones (pve leading over pvp in making skillbalances)

LifesRestorer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2007

London, England

Mo/

22 Apr 2008 at 16:33 - 228

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

and that's different than pvp how? Oh wait, the mesmer never gets a group. my bad.

lol. less bullshit please. mesmer is a staple in any balanced team as it allows the 'bend the rules' if you will. it can add recharge to vital skills with diversion, can deplete a character of energy in seconds and generally be the biggest pain in the ass a character will ever have to deal with.

The reason you don't see many mesmers in HA, or wherever you're looking in the scrubfest of the pug world is because mesmer is arguably the hardest class in GW to play effectively. The difference between a good and a bad mesmer for example is far greater than the difference between a good and a bad elementalist. Therefore, to make it easier to form pugs, builds are made with less reliance on the mesmer while in co-ordinated guild/friend list teams, a mesmers performance can make or break a game.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

22 Apr 2008 at 16:40 - 229

This thread sure went into the crapper in a hurry there at the end....

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

22 Apr 2008 at 17:15 - 230

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

This thread sure went into the crapper in a hurry there at the end....

yeah i gave up on it a while ago..

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

22 Apr 2008 at 18:58 - 231

Show me a thread that hasn't exhausted its topic by page 3 and I'll show you a portal to the mythical Xunlai Marketplace.

Creeping Carl

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

22 Apr 2008 at 21:47 - 232

Seeing some of the posts by my fellow PVE'ers in here, I'm once again embarassed. The irrational and illogical rants against balance and gameplay, the baseless and senseless hatred towards anything PVP, what the hell is wrong with you people? Has the constant clicking of killing mob after mob turned the PVE crowd into idiotic zombies?

bel unbreakable

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

scotland

shadow hunters of light

W/Mo

22 Apr 2008 at 22:04 - 233

i think its more like the shit coming in the other direction to be honest

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

22 Apr 2008 at 22:18 - 234

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Seeing some of the posts by my fellow PVE'ers in here, I'm once again embarassed. The irrational and illogical rants against balance and gameplay, the baseless and senseless hatred towards anything PVP, what the hell is wrong with you people? Has the constant clicking of killing mob after mob turned the PVE crowd into idiotic zombies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bel unbreakable

i think its more like the shit coming in the other direction to be honest

oh shi.. ITS ON!!! RACE WARZ!!!!!!!

for serious reply... It is always someone who wants to do nothing but put the blame solely on someone else (see example above) that yes there have been alot of useless bullshit whining posts made in this thread, and yet someone comes along and takes offense to it and has to post yet another one...

As long as anyone who makes a comment towards skill balance isn't open minded and can fully comprehend the issue comming from both sides, these stupid remarks and comments will always happen, thus leading to the divide between PvE and PvP.

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

22 Apr 2008 at 22:25 - 235

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Seeing some of the posts by my fellow PVE'ers in here, I'm once again embarassed. The irrational and illogical rants against balance and gameplay, the baseless and senseless hatred towards anything PVP, what the hell is wrong with you people? Has the constant clicking of killing mob after mob turned the PVE crowd into idiotic zombies?

there are irrational, and rational sides to both the pvp, and the pve side of the debate. to come in here, and call all of us pve'ers idiots, because we're tired of stale, monotonous gameplay, and the lack of care shown during the pvp based "skill balances", is basically your own, hypocritical version of what you just testified against..

Creeping Carl

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

22 Apr 2008 at 22:42 - 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

there are irrational, and rational sides to both the pvp, and the pve side of the debate. to come in here, and call all of us pve'ers idiots, because we're tired of stale, monotonous gameplay, and the lack of care shown during the pvp based "skill balances", is basically your own, hypocritical version of what you just testified against..

I encourage you to read what I wrote again. I didnt say ALL PVE players are like this. Bolded for your conveniance. And it's silly for me to call all PVE players idiots since I and my friends are PVE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Seeing some of the posts by my fellow PVE'ers in here, I'm once again embarassed. The irrational and illogical rants against balance and gameplay, the baseless and senseless hatred towards anything PVP, what the hell is wrong with you people? Has the constant clicking of killing mob after mob turned the PVE crowd into idiotic zombies?

The reason I focused on criticizing the PVE side is because there are far more rants against ANYTHING to do with balance from the PVE side than from the PVP side. Even as a PVE player myself, I see a lot of unjustified complaints from my fellow PVE players more so than from the PVP side. Maybe because there are a lot more PVE players than PVP? It doesnt matter though, if people are going to be irrational then I'm going to feel compelled to point it out.

LifesRestorer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2007

London, England

Mo/

22 Apr 2008 at 22:45 - 237

Quote:

Originally Posted by bel unbreakable

i think its more like the shit coming in the other direction to be honest

thankyou for making my day with such an epic +1
thats literally the best response i've ever seen.

Creeping Carl

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

22 Apr 2008 at 22:53 - 238

And to clarify what I mean by irrational arguments, take for example the argument against balance in PVE because "monsters don't complain about overpowered skills". If that is a valid argument then why have any limitation in the PVE game at all then? What's the point in level progression then? With such an extreme "argument" one can only ask what's the point of any game if there's no point in game balance since "monsters dont complain?"

It's arguments like that which makes me and other PVE players look like f-in idiots.

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

22 Apr 2008 at 23:04 - 239

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I encourage you to read what I wrote again. I didnt say ALL PVE players are like this. Bolded for your conveniance. And it's silly for me to call all PVE players idiots since I and my friends are PVE!

The reason I focused on criticizing the PVE side is because there are far more rants against ANYTHING to do with balance from the PVE side than from the PVP side. Even as a PVE player myself, I see a lot of unjustified complaints from my fellow PVE players more so than from the PVP side. Maybe because there are a lot more PVE players than PVP? It doesnt matter though, if people are going to be irrational then I'm going to feel compelled to point it out.

its pointless to point it out to begin with. maybe that's what i should have pointed out the first time i responded to you post.

there are just as many dummies in pvp as there are in pve, as far as the ratio goes. yeah, theres a lot more of us playing pve, way more, but its like 70% have no idea what they're talking about, and the rest are either casual, and just having fun, or know whats up in the community/economy. those same percentages imo seem to apply to pvp'ers as well (me doing both, i see these things all the time), and to claim one side of the community is worse, or stupider than the other isn't a very wise assessment of the general point at all, and in fact just causes nothing more than distress for yourself, when the real issues at hand have nothing to do with a personal opinion of what the state of the community is from your point of view.

im not saying your assessment is necessarily incorrect, its just not a valid point in this debate, nor is it necessary to point out something we've all witnessed, in both pve, and pvp.

Creeping Carl

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

22 Apr 2008 at 23:12 - 240

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

its pointless to point it out to begin with. maybe that's what i should have pointed out the first time i responded to you post.

Well that's kind of ironic on your part, isnt it? Pointing out to me that it's pointless to point something out?

And it's pretty much unavoidable discussing the mentality of PVE/PVP since this IS a thread about balance between these two playstyles. And how the mentalities and playstyles clashed so much to the point that ANET is now working towards separating them.

I usually keep out of these threads but I saw too much of the PVE crowd swaying towards a direction that I didnt like so I wanted to add MY view on the PVE playstyle.

Or is stating a stance a pointless thing in your view?