Remember when you load into HA, wanting to experience how fun it is? Three hours later, you're still there, because everyone is spamming "LF r5+ monk" or "LF r9+ ele."
That sucked.
The hero title is one of the biggest symbols of grind (with a little skill), and Anet knows it already killed entry to higher end PvP. It turned players who won't accept someone of a lower rank into "elitist PvPers."
So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills? Are they wanting to turn those same people who cried about "elitist PvPers" into hypocrites when they go out and advertise "LF r8+ ursan" or "LF r3+ SY"? Because that's what happened. One minute, Bob Random posts in Riverside crying about how elitist PvPers are because they won't accept him into their HA groups since he's only rank 2. The next, he goes into DoA and rejects r7 norns because his group is a r8+ ursan group.
If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it. You simply don't go out advertising that this is a grind-free game, and when a new player buys it, they find they can't play a large portion of the end-game because their lack of grinding makes it impossible for them to find groups. Sure they can join good guilds running balanced builds, but how likely is that given a very casual player? The direction GW (and GW2) is changing into is one that'll attract more players in general, but with their goal changes, they should also change their advertising.
The hidden grind: why grind-->benefits is bad for PvE
Div
Stormlord Alex
To add on to your awesome insight, holy, is that the grind 'needs'* to be done on every PvE character you play if you want to get into PuGs and shit.
I'll take your analogy of getting to RX in HA, and remind people that instead of grinding just once you need to do it all over again for every toon you have - making having multiple characters a pain in the ass for more casual players hoping to get into elite mission PuGs.
*bad word, but the best I could think of... I'm aware you don't 'need' to grind
I'll take your analogy of getting to RX in HA, and remind people that instead of grinding just once you need to do it all over again for every toon you have - making having multiple characters a pain in the ass for more casual players hoping to get into elite mission PuGs.
*bad word, but the best I could think of... I'm aware you don't 'need' to grind
Winterclaw
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So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills?
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Second it is really easy to get these titles up, thats why Anet introduced the special weekends every once in a while when u get double points. You can MAX out the norn title track in a few hours on one of these weekends
I don't see anyone saying that it's hard. Do you? It's boring. It's god damn boring, it's not challenging at all, it's pathetic c-spaceing. People don't like to do boring, simple-minded tasks that even retarded 5 years old can do. At least I don't like to do this.
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If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it.
Good point, I thought it was just GW2 that Anet was making a point of copying WoW. "Get ursan noob" must be what ANet was aiming for because that is what they got.  If not, they would have at most have one pve skill title that works for all pve skills.
Fog Accomplice
Someone's cranky...
You're missing a huge issue here: grinding in PvP by yourself is impossible. Fame can only be acquired by doing HA, and since they already have high requirements, it's next to impossible to get any entrance. Kind of a catch 22. You NEED fame to GET fame. With PvE, however, you need to grind and familiarize yourself more with the game in order to get into the harder levels. Yeah yeah, sure, you beat the game, whoop-dee-doo. If you are about to go into the DoA, however, I'd be feel much safer with someone showing the R8 Norn title versus Protector of Elona. The difference is that you can advance in PvE ON YOUR OWN and thus meet the high requirements for "elite pve'rs(??????)" for more difficult areas. It makes sense, it's an MMO, synonymous for grind, deal with it.
Snow Bunny
I agree completely with this.
Rank discrimination exists in PvE and has evolved into a beast much like PvP rank discrimination. "LF R8-10 Norn" fills the chat log of DoA and other elite areas, much like "LF R9+ RC" litters Heroes Ascent. Neither title was ever truly indicative of skill, but experience and grind. Rank doesn't matter to teams composed of alliance mates/guildies/friends, because the members of the group are familiar with each other and their respective playing styles. I am a good monk, both PvP and PvE, but I can't get accepted into DoA pugs because my Lightbringer rank is only 6. I've been rejected from SS/LB title farming groups because of my low ranks in those titles. It's not upsetting, just highly amusing that the hypocrisy Divine speaks of has manifested itself fully. Linking the titles to PvE skills was a tremendously bad idea. The emote, before the advent of titles, was useful as an indicator of experience. Now, it's simply linked to a title and contributes to grind. Imagine if the Champion title were linked to the amount your spells dealt in damage or healing or otherwise, and gave you a damage bonus. It'd be absurd. And grinding PvP by yourself is possible. I have a R5 Glad friend who farmed RA to death from R0-R5 glad. That's solo farming
Bront
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fog Accomplice
It makes sense, it's an MMO, synonymous for grind, deal with it.
Why?
There is Grind and there is Grind in GW. The Sunspear points? It's fairly easy to get any character up to R6 just by playing the game normaly. In fact, it's benificial when getting your Elonian character up to L20 to get every bounty you can because of the double XP, and many of the quests have you running around anyway, so why not earn the Susnpear points? Now, admitedly, the higher levels are a little more grindy by needing Hard Mode, but getting to rank 7-8 though fairly normal play isn't hard, and ranks 9 and 10 aren't that much of a big deal for the Sunspear skills. Lightbringer points? Don't have as much experience with those, but since the only benifits are in Elonia areas, it's less of an issue as well. From what I've heard, they're a bit more grindy than Sunspear points. These grinds can be semi-explainable, and I don't think are truly atrocious. If they were the only grinds in PvE, I don't think many would complain, as they are either limited or fairly synergistic with normal play. On the other hand, you have: Luxon/Kurzick faction. You only need to grind 1, but the grind is just nuts! 100,000 points before you can even get your first skill at rank 1? Sure they accumulate faster than Sunspear points, and you can get them in PvP, but the monumental number you need to get a high rank in them is just nuts! Of course, it fuels FFF (which favors the Kurzicks since it's easier to do for them), guilds fighting over town ownership, so i guess there is at least a point beyond cool skills, and the title is at least account based, which helps reduce some grind, but the raw numbers are just nuts! The EoTN points are truely the obnoxious grind ones. There are several broken PvE skills in them, and the best way to grind points is to beat the game 3-4 times with each character for each race! While I can understand to some degree why they weren't account based, it would certaintly reduce the repition of the grind if they were (at least you can swap characters on occasion to work on Faction grind). As for the PvP grind for titles, I can understand both sides. Players what a trophy for playing and winning in PvP. However, because the title deals with total wins, and not winning percentage, performance, or anything else, the Rank itself isn't a large indicator of anything more than time and number of wins. It also does exclude new players to PvP, because players can be more concerned with earning the title over teaching new players, as that's what the system rewards (And honestly, teaching new players is hard to reward through any kind of reward or tracking system). I guess my point is that purposeful grind that doesn't require too much work beyond normal play is fine, but grind grind realy hurts people who don't have the time, and honestly, the ability to be a casual player in PvE was one of the things that I like about GW. Grind is usually a mechanic to keep players paying a monthly fee (or back when they did it, hourly fee). It's even more pointless in the GW model, where there is no extra money made with grind.
zling
grinding is just something to do for people who have absolutly no real life... the problem starts when this grinding is showing as titles which are linked to certain skills and thus affects gameplay. the fact that it's meaningless doesnt stop people from discriminating due to it.
take HA as the classic example, where it all started... look at R8+ today, most of the new ones achieved it by going R/D Sway over and over again... so the fact that they have R8 shows skill? does it show adaptability? ability to play different builds and strategies successfuly? NO! it just shows you spent weeks and weeks in HA and farming the Randomway and other Sway N00Bs in the first few maps. so why do people discriminate rank? because the only thing it does show is experience, even bad players gather experience from weeks and weeks of playing the same area, same maps with the same build over and over again... is it fair? NO! but unfortunatly life isn't fair and Anet doesn't seem to want it to be...
Savio
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
The hero title is one of the biggest symbols of grind (with a little skill), and Anet knows it already killed entry to higher end PvP.
Even without the hero title, people would discriminate against less-experienced players. The bigger problem is that with the way Guild Wars is, it's difficult to make a successful PuG, PvE or PvP. Additionally, there are few good places a casual player will enjoy; RA and AB suck, and casual PvE is boring and lacks rewards.
I dislike title discrimination like any player, but without it how would anyone make groups without a Rolodex of good players?
cellardweller
Grind for cosmetics does not bother me in the least. I would say that requiring grind to pugs is unfortunate but given that it requires a desire to pug in the first place, it probably only affects a tiny percentage of the GW playerbase.
The big issue I have is that it completely kills any form of comptitive PvE. It is now impossible to get the level playing fields that we used to have, making it nigh impossible for PvE players to get any meaningful measures of success or failure.
MisterT69
Why not have some grind? PVE is still > PVE. Besides, it's not that hard to increase your SY time by a second or two by abing a little bit, or by making TNTF a little more powerful with some LB/ss runs. And UB? Lol, max norn takes 3-4 days to max. Just turn in one handbook, one HM handbook, one HM dungeon guide, and like two norn runs, and boom, you're at spot numero uno in DoA
Savio
There are two types of grind. There's optional grind like shiny weapons, sure keep that in the game. Necessary grind that you must do before you can play the game for fun is bad and should be eliminated. That's what this thread is about.
Winterclaw
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Originally Posted by Savio
I dislike title discrimination like any player, but without it how would anyone make groups without a Rolodex of good players?
Is the rolodex necessarily a bad thing? The value of titles in determining a player's skill in cases like this because even the worst player can grind for a long time. At best, it can get your foot in the door, which is all a good player really needs. At worst, it can lead to elitism and be viewed as a substutite for skill (mainly by the elitists).
Savio
Having a good network is great, but it shouldn't be the only way to get good groups aside from elitism. Part of the problem is that Guild Wars is a team-based game, the other part is that Guild Wars has only a few tiers of gameplay in both PvE and PvP.
FoxBat
I don't think lightbringer rank was ever as big a deal as Norn rank has become. Ergo, kill ursan parties through rebalance, problem solved.
Tyla
/Agree.
Another epic thread from the Divine Ambassador.
The Meth
A Timeline of titles in guild wars PvE:
Prophecies: No titles, everyone is happy. Factions release: Ok, we start getting titles, but Anet gets us to accept them because "Titles have no effect on gameplay and are just meant to show accomplishments." Nightfall release: Titles start getting effects. At this time noone really cared that much though because sunspear's effects were practically nil and Torment didn't have DoA, so lightbringer was useless. DoA: Oh shit, now lightbringer makes or breaks parties. BTW you have to get 50k points to max it. PvE skills: God damn, now you add skills based on the other two most grindy tracks in the game (sunspear and factions titles). EotN release: Horray, 4 individual title tracks to grind, with the skills being practically required in any kind of PuG group. Just raising the max level to 25 for pve would have been better then this much crap (downleveling PvE characters and items for PvP of course). On the plus side, it sounds like they will be doing that for GW2. Eru Valenehtar
I know I'm probibly going to get flamed for this statement, because I know how passionately people are against Ursan and the other grind titles. And, also, before I get started I would like to mention that since I can remember there has been something to grind for in Guild Wars. Even in prophecies, there was the FoW armor which took lots of time and money to get ahold of. Through factions there is faction farming. Nightfall had sunspear and lightbringer. Although I have to agree that Ursan is a powerful skill that has fallen to the "elitists" of guild wars, I don't feel that it needs to have so many hate threads against it. There are so many people that dislike the skill that there shouldn't be a problem with finding a group.
This is just the same when you would go to do underworld, and everyone was just "Pro SS" or "Pro 55." I'm not for or against anything here, I'm just stating an oppinion on the matter.
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by Eru Valenehtar
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Equipping obsidian armor doesn't allow you to steamroll areas though. It's just for looks or a sense of personal achievement. I've never seen "looking for warrior, must have FoW armor" in local.
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This is just the same when you would go to do underworld, and everyone was just "Pro SS" or "Pro 55."
Not entirely, get to level 20 with 200 attribute points and you're good to go. For Ursan to work, get to level 20 with 200 attribute points then grind 160k norn for your skill to be as strong as possible. Then you're allowed to play. It's not a matter of having the right profession it's a matter of whether or not you've dedicated yourself to the necessary grind.
Shyft the Pyro
Grind, title grind included, is entirely contrary to GW's model. The game's lack of monthly fees was elevated into a marketing pitch, which claimed that GW could be picked up and put aside at will. If you got bored, you could move on; if you got nostalgic, you could come back. You did not have to keep playing, however.
The introduction of grind can have only one purpose: to keep people playing. If GW is a game that doesn't care how long you stay glued to it - as evidenced by the hourly reminders, AI parties to compensate for declining player population, and the same-old lack of monthly fees - why put in grind that some will (rightly) see as a deviation from the initial philosophy? The answer, I think, is marketing. Apparently, someone at ANet must be getting increasingly more paranoid about losing the player base for good. Consider this: we hear about the millions of copies sold, but not about play statistics. Obviously, releasing these would be tantamount to commercial suicide, because the numbers would never even be close. But ANet does see them, and has made every effort to drag its customers back - with weekend events - and to hold their interest, keeping them playing (grinding) - with titles. If you don't believe that ANet is betting its survival (and yes, I mean GW2 sales here) on titles, I need only refer you to the Hall of Monuments and the current favor system. Do I like it? Hell no. Can I do anything about it? Hell no. "Welcome to GWEN. Today is either the first or the last day of your Guild Wars life."
bj91x
Another thing I want to mention (sorry if it has been mentioned but I'm busy at work for the time being so didn't really read much of this thread), is that unlike other chapters where you get tons of stuff for what you pay for... for GWEN, you pay money, then HAVE to grind to get your money's worth.
Being able to get more skills is half the reason I buy a new chapter. Unfortunately, with GWEN, paying for a chapter wasn't enough. For me to be able to use the skills that I paid my money for, I had to grind for hours and hours and hours... for each rep that I wanted to use... for each character that wanted to use these skills with... That's not what I bought this series for.
JoeKnowMo
The PvE skills should have no grind attached.
And Ursan needs to be usable only in elite missions (and maybe HM?).
Melody Cross
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
That sucked. The hero title is one of the biggest symbols of grind (with a little skill), and Anet knows it already killed entry to higher end PvP. It turned players who won't accept someone of a lower rank into "elitist PvPers." So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills? Are they wanting to turn those same people who cried about "elitist PvPers" into hypocrites when they go out and advertise "LF r8+ ursan" or "LF r3+ SY"? Ultimately, I think thats exactly what they wanted to do. They had to know it would happen. Its what always happens when you introduce titles and skills like this to a player base. Many Elite PvE players have been asking for ways to represent their "skill" since GW's inception. They've been asking for ways to make the game easier in the same post more often than not. Its--to me anyway--been no surprise that GW:EoTN (an expansion touted as an "elite" area for end game players) gave them both. Arguing that grind is against Anets model is, frankly, an exercise in futility. Anet is evolving its model--both its model for play and its business model--regularly. By the time GW2 comes out, GW1 will probably be unrecognizable from what it was when we bought it. I mean, look at it now. We've gone from "we'll never sell content" to "everything must go!" How is anyone surprised that the game play would shift from "skill is greater than grind" to "Ursan (and the grind it requires) is greater than everything!" My stance on this issue: you made your bed; go lie in it. Players have asked for this crap. They petitioned for these changes and applauded when they happened. Arguing against common sentiment about them got your thread locked and your posts deleted. So I stopped trying. I just grab the popcorn and watch yall freak out when you realize it went too far. GGs
Shyft the Pyro
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Originally Posted by Melody Cross
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With that said there is no rule saying that you HAVE to grind these pve titles up.
You even don't have to take any skills with you. But every player will try to maximize his efficiency and if maxing this efficiency is only available through brain-killing grind then it becomes a problem. You don't have to buy runes and insignias for your armour but it will make your character better. The difference is that buying runes doesn't require you to grind.|
Originally Posted by Melody Cross
My stance on this issue: you made your bed; go lie in it. Players have asked for this crap. They petitioned for these changes and applauded when they happened. Arguing against common sentiment about them got your thread locked and your posts deleted. So I stopped trying. I just grab the popcorn and watch yall freak out when you realize it went too far.
GGs Not everyone did. Many people have quit, over various things, but as someone is (usually) quick to point out, quitters don't come to fansite forums. Even if they do, they're easily dismissed as people who can't talk about the game any more ("LOL Zinger, go back to your WoW!"). What's left is a mixture of equal parts fanboy ("ANet can do no wrong") and cautious optimist ("I'll buy their next product, just because it might get better..."). For the record, I am the latter 
Age
Quote:
Originally Posted by bj91x
Another thing I want to mention (sorry if it has been mentioned but I'm busy at work for the time being so didn't really read much of this thread), is that unlike other chapters where you get tons of stuff for what you pay for... for GWEN, you pay money, then HAVE to grind to get your money's worth.
Being able to get more skills is half the reason I buy a new chapter. Unfortunately, with GWEN, paying for a chapter wasn't enough. For me to be able to use the skills that I paid my money for, I had to grind for hours and hours and hours... for each rep that I wanted to use... for each character that wanted to use these skills with... That's not what I bought this series for. That pretty much sums it up for me to.
Winterclaw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Cross
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QFT. Anet wants to go in this new direction and because they don't have to worry about people not playing or buying the next game, they'll push it as far as they can. The fact that they have even considered infinate level means grind is more or less going to be a permanent feature... and everyone who is good at grinding is going to keep demanding it because of 3peen.
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My stance on this issue: you made your bed; go lie in it. Players have asked for this crap. They petitioned for these changes and applauded when they happened. Arguing against common sentiment about them got your thread locked and your posts deleted. So I stopped trying. I just grab the popcorn and watch yall freak out when you realize it went too far.
I can't argue with this either. It seemed like for everyone who said keep GW at 20 levels and keep the grind out, there was at least one or two more who said shut up noob. IMO this is all NF's fault with both its power-creep and its grind creep. GWEN was an extention of that. GW2 is going to be an extention of GWEN at least in terms of grind.
Melody Cross
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
For the record, I am the latter |
Gimmes (those people who stick out their hand and shout "Gimmie" instead of working to earn something) are a cancer to good game evolution and life in general. They don't want improved play four gripes out of five. They want the game--their build, their team, their playstyle--to be easier. They don't want to earn something in-game, they want to buy it cheap.
And they are all over the MMO industry. It was nice back in the day when we could say "Go play WoW if you want that crud." Now? We'd be hypocritical to.
GW is a Korean economics version free-to-play-if-you-ignore-how-much-you-gotta-pay-for-it WoW. GW2 will be moreso. My opinion.
GGs
Zidane Ortef
There is realy no need to grind anything in this game. like it has been said SS can be made to r6-7 by just playing the game, now do a few HM vanquishing in Elona grab teh hunts and GG u will have R10 in no time, same goes for EotN doing teh storyline/ Dungeons u can reach about R5-6 on each Rep title, then vanquish the few areas in EotN and GG u will have max or close to max Rep titles with little effort at all and for those who cry about HM being to hard the basic 3 man necro team is enough to cover almost all bases of HM in the game and for those who play Paragon HM is even more ridiculously easy Imbagon + 3 necro team = GG to all.
thibault the monk
There is no rule that says u must join ursan groups first of all. With that said there is no rule saying that you HAVE to grind these pve titles up. You are more than allowed to take h/h and go out and do whatever u want by yourself. People want r10 ursans because it makes things go faster, a r1 ursan party can clear uw/fow but it takes just as long as a balanced group, whats the point of that.
Second it is really easy to get these titles up, thats why Anet introduced the special weekends every once in a while when u get double points. You can MAX out the norn title track in a few hours on one of these weekends.
In WoW u HAVE to grind in order to progress to the next level, in GW you HAVE to grind only, and i mean ONLY, if u want to join these groups that want the high level ursan/ss/lb people. No one is requiring u to join these groups. Whine all u want, but gw is still NOT a grind-based game, it has grinds in it to enhance the game-play for players that liek to go out and do the grinds.
Second it is really easy to get these titles up, thats why Anet introduced the special weekends every once in a while when u get double points. You can MAX out the norn title track in a few hours on one of these weekends.
In WoW u HAVE to grind in order to progress to the next level, in GW you HAVE to grind only, and i mean ONLY, if u want to join these groups that want the high level ursan/ss/lb people. No one is requiring u to join these groups. Whine all u want, but gw is still NOT a grind-based game, it has grinds in it to enhance the game-play for players that liek to go out and do the grinds.
Burst Cancel
Title discrimination is a problem only when titles aren't reasonable metrics. If the hero title was actually a solid measure of skill, there wouldn't be anything wrong with "rX+ only" groups.
The thing about Ursan is that higher ranks = bigger numbers, and the blessing itself lowers the impact of player skill to the point of irrelevance. Thus, Ursan discrimination isn't entirely meritless.
I agree with Melody that the community brought this upon themselves. Fortunately, most of the people who were smart enough to recognize the pitfalls early on are also the people who are smart enough to do the game on their own, thus handily side-stepping the Ursan problem.
The thing about Ursan is that higher ranks = bigger numbers, and the blessing itself lowers the impact of player skill to the point of irrelevance. Thus, Ursan discrimination isn't entirely meritless.
I agree with Melody that the community brought this upon themselves. Fortunately, most of the people who were smart enough to recognize the pitfalls early on are also the people who are smart enough to do the game on their own, thus handily side-stepping the Ursan problem.
BlackSephir
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Originally Posted by thibault the monk
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In WoW
Whoa, easy there, you're entering dangerous territory. Since when WoW is in the same category as GW and even if it was, since when WoW is some kind of a role model? See, some people bought GW because while still being an online game, it was completely different than WoW. No monthly fee, no grind, no uber stuff, no high levels, no races etc etc. Now with introduced grind AN moved from "not like wow" to "a bit like wow". GW players shouldn't feel similarities to WoW, we should see that it's different. And for the record, if GW 2 will have racial bonuses, ultra high levels then it doesn't look too bright. But now that AN introduced "take this 1 skill, with it you'll divide and conquer" they are pretty much screwed. Can't remove them- ursanites will go on rampage. Can't leave it as it is- elite areas hm being done by a drunken teenager (last time I checke, 'hard' means something that's, um, NOT easy to do) . Nerf them to the ground- rampage and whining. People have made a bad habit of connecting grind with MMOs/online "RPGs", or ever worse, with RPGs alone. No. Grind is not necessarily connected with MMOs just like first person perspective in games isn't connected with guns. Grind is a bad design choice, "how to make players earn something that won't be too hard for them to do and for us to implement". Grind is a pathetic attempt at making players believe that they are "earning" or "achieving" something. It's done by lazy devs that are not interested in making the game reward effort. It's rewarding time spent instead. Now, I'm not saying to put more pve skills or something as ridiculous as that, but didn't it struck you that doing all Titan quests in Tyria gives you "only" shitload of exp, while grinding norn rank makes your skills better, gives you more health? Seems pretty funny especially when you compare the difficulty level of these 2 things. Toxage
I don't get where the "grind" is.... I maxed out all my EOTN reps in a month or two afterwards casually playing.
WOW grinding is totally different. You have to put so much effort into that game. You must grind consumables, potions, enchants, patterns, learn the encounter, spend hours clearing trash etc etc. GW - log on for an hour a day do a couple missions log out. You'll max your title in no time. Durik Lakmor
I agree with the OP, I have played since the E3 for Everyone event. I found EotN to be disappointing at best, then people start forming these Ursan groups and its like YOUR class doesn't even matter anymore. Its just a same skill for everyone button.
Which is in itself lame and unfun in my opinon. Now it is true you don't have to join an ursan group, but it is pretty danged hard to get a DoA group made of other ways. Sadly I left before this was a big deal with the titans area and of course mallyx itself unfinished before I had to leave for Basic. Now I feel like it will be one challenge in GW I may never complete because I don't want to grind out Norn rep.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxage
I don't get where the "grind" is.... I maxed out all my EOTN reps in a month or two afterwards casually playing.
WOW grinding is totally different. You have to put so much effort into that game. You must grind consumables, potions, enchants, patterns, learn the encounter, spend hours clearing trash etc etc. GW - log on for an hour a day do a couple missions log out. You'll max your title in no time. So you're saying it's perfectly fine for a casual player to have to spend 1-2 months prepping their characters so that they can join PUGs in DoA/UW/FoW?
Burst Cancel
We're getting into the question of whether players should be able to jump into any part of the game on-demand. Asking whether players should have to prep their characters for 1-2 months for elite missions isn't far from asking whether people should even have to level their characters or beat missions in sequential order.
These questions are not trivial. People playing RPGs take leveling for granted, but who actually likes to level? Outside of games like Disgaea (where the entire point is basically powerleveling and item collecting), leveling is an arbitrarily-decided task the player has to do in order to get to the fun parts. That being the case, we should ask ourselves whether it's actually necessary for leveling to be a critical game mechanic. I've played many games, both single and multiplayer, where the game doesn't really start until the 'endgame', when you've finally gotten high-level characters with good equipment, and the monsters and dungeons are actually complex and well-designed. Everything before that is just a lead-up to the real game. GW falls right into this category - Prophecies, for instance, doesn't really start until you hit the Southern Shivers, where everything is lvl20+, where you have access to elite skills, full 8-player parties, etc. That is the real GW. Why shouldn't the whole game, starting from Pre-Searing, be played at lvl20, with elite skills, and 8-player parties? It's worth considering the tradeoffs. Bottom line: what do you gain, and what do you lose, by making a whole RPG the equivalent of "disk 4" (maxed everything, full access)?
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
So you're saying it's perfectly fine for a casual player to have to spend 1-2 months prepping their characters so that they can join PUGs in DoA/UW/FoW?
And have to own EOTN. Campaign discrimination is kinda sad.
KennyC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
And have to own EOTN. Campaign discrimination is kinda sad.
Didnt they do this with WOW? Increased Level Cap with an expansion, means everyone must buy the expansion or be left behind. Same with EOTN, buy it - or no FOW, DOA, UW or any of the uber overpowered skills.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyC
Same with EOTN, buy it - or no FOW, DOA, UW or any of the uber overpowered skills.
I've been quite able to complete FoW, DoA, and UW before owning EOTN since none of those zones are EOTN content.
Bront
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
And have to own EOTN. Campaign discrimination is kinda sad.
In some ways, you already have that discrimination. People looking for builds or skills only available in one campaign is common enough outside of UB and pre UB.
KennyC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
I've been quite able to complete FoW, DoA, and UW before owning EOTN since none of those zones are EOTN content.
Thats not what I mean. 99% of groups are now composed soley of Ursan, unless you have eotn you are excluded from these groups and therefore the elite areas.
MasterSasori
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it. You simply don't go out advertising that this is a grind-free game, and when a new player buys it, they find they can't play a large portion of the end-game because their lack of grinding makes it impossible for them to find groups. Sure they can join good guilds running balanced builds, but how likely is that given a very casual player? The direction GW (and GW2) is changing into is one that'll attract more players in general, but with their goal changes, they should also change their advertising.
You should also mention how being PvP competitive is impossible without most of the campaigns.
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