"Ram" in Rollerbeetle Racing got "fixed".

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

Quote:
Quit QQing about the mechanics and learn to play better.
Nobody was doing that except the whiners griping about a bug fix, but thanks for your completely pointless post telling us how much better you are than everyone else Mr. Perfect.

// strawmen are fun from the other side too wheeeeeee

Quote:
its so stupid how doing things unconventionally is considered cheating. i suppose people who race cars and take corners by drifting are cheating as well because they arent racing how everyone else is?
Yes, because exploiting a bugged piece of software is exactly the same thing as operating a vehicle within the known laws of physics. That makes perfect sense and I don't see any flaw what-so-ever in your brilliant analogy.

Quote:
This update will ruin the consistent strategy of winning, once again making this game even more luck based than skill based.
Right. There was a "hidden intent" in the skill and it wasn't just a bug that caused it to operate outside of its hidden parameters. ANET just does that all the time, where core game mechanics stop functioning a certain way on purpose even though nothing states they should.

Less stupid comments, please.

Quote:
The same racers will still be on top
Probably, since they're the ones with nothing better to do with their time who will sit and play for hours on end anyway. That doesn't mean it eliminates a lot of the other annoying brats who can't just play for fun and have to ruin it for other people.

It will help individual races, which is the goal. Fewer nerds competing for the right to call themselves king of the Rollerbeetle races (my god, put that on your resumes, dorks...) which means fewer races with losers, which is always a good thing.

Jetdoc

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
It just makes us think a little more, and it forces everyone to rely a little bit more on boxes. That makes this game more luck based than skill based, no matter how you hash it.
Actually, the "skill" being used was seldom known, so it really wasn't skill - it was capitalizing on the ignorance of the other racers.

Also, I find it hard to understand why being required to "think more" translates into less "skill"....

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

You know, with as many problems as rollerbeetle racing has had and all the whining and cheating since it's inception, I wish ANET would just give everyone a greased lightning and then remove ALL rewards from it, save maybe victory tokens, so the only motivation to do it is entertainment.

I really don't know why it irritates me so much that there are so many cheaters at RB racing. I guess I'm just jealous that I don't have that much spare time in my life to devote to cheating at something so trivial...

Lain Akazukin

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
I wouldn't be so sure of that. There's a long list of top racers that I can think have been around for a while: Ouija, Roflcopter, Ekelon, Marvin, Dragou, myself -- just about anyone who's won a Rollerbeetle. Lots of us have been winners from the start, and as I recall, Rofl and I didn't know very much about the Echoed Ram tactic until just this past festival. We still made top scores.
Oh I didn't say you weren't going to make top scores without this tactic, just that you (= the people who used this trick last time) won't be able to get as many top 100 scores as before. Let's face it, with the echo-ram tactic you had a much better chance at a good time and so you will also get more top 100 scores as a result (if you are a good racer). Especially since there were only a select few people in the know about this little trick, so those people had a nice advantage over the rest. Now everyone knows about it, so I don't really see the need to 'fix' it anymore since everyone can use the tactic to his or her own advantage. Not that it matters to me though, it would have been interesting to see how much I could improve my times with this trick, but it won't break my enjoyment of racing.

Quote:
It's just like Rofl said: changing how Ram works doesn't screw up the top racers from getting the top scores. It just makes us think a little more, and it forces everyone to rely a little bit more on boxes. That makes this game more luck based than skill based, no matter how you hash it.
And that's where I have to disagree. You have to think more and finetune your tactics to a game without the echo ram trick, and those who do that best will have the top scores. And that is what takes skill, not luck.

dunky_g

dunky_g

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

[SNOW]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetdoc
Also, I find it hard to understand why being required to "think more" translates into less "skill"....
I have to agree, this mentality seems to be retarded

4thVariety

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

European Union

ADL

E/

empty district -> race will not start just like AB
only your pals in the district -> private race every time
beaten by true ability -> kudos
beaten by obscure knowledge -> yawn, wake me later
greased lightning -> stick it... ...at least it's greased.

more resaerch required into alledged lag-bridge warp.
fair time trial competitions require a time trial mode. no experienced racing gamer will ever claim luck if his knowledge advantage shatters and he's restricted to his pure ability. any racing community will tell you that

sevendash

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

Flaming Turtles [FT]

E/R

I love the comment about the update making this game based on luck. I'm sure the people that came up with the idea for this game had total skill in mind. No luck was desired whatsoever. That's certainly why they included those boxes. Because they wanted no surprises. None. No luck. All skill. Yeah, not really.

M4G1C S71CK

M4G1C S71CK

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2008

Virginia

Wild Turtle Foundation [WTF]

P/

Yea I don't think that Ram bug fix did much because as you can see all the people you see on the top 100 are on there atleast more than 2 or 3 times.

M4G1C S71CK

M4G1C S71CK

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2008

Virginia

Wild Turtle Foundation [WTF]

P/

Also They should only allow for you to be on the top 100 once.

Lain Akazukin

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by M4G1C S71CK
Yea I don't think that Ram bug fix did much because as you can see all the people you see on the top 100 are on there atleast more than 2 or 3 times.
That's what we said already, but everyone seemed to think double ram was the only way to get into top 100.

M4G1C S71CK

M4G1C S71CK

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2008

Virginia

Wild Turtle Foundation [WTF]

P/

Ahh sorry didnt read through.

Chrono Re delle Ere

Chrono Re delle Ere

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

The Land of Hyrule

[GoE]

W/

dear god, I love the QQ threads during events....so funny to read!

Personally I didn't even know about the bug, and I just renounced to play RR because it was impossible to get in ladder so....

but yea, I am happy they fixed anything that let cheaters get a load of greased lightings...

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

From the early leaderboard: it appears that Yuris Sayuri and Lain are still better than you.

Either a) Double Ram didn't make a difference to the effectiveness of the strategy or b) ANet should WTB some new coders and testers.

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctb
Probably, since they're the ones with nothing better to do with their time who will sit and play for hours on end anyway. That doesn't mean it eliminates a lot of the other annoying brats who can't just play for fun and have to ruin it for other people.
If the top players are as good as everyone keeps saying they are. They don't need to play "hours on end" to completely wipe the floor with everyone's ass. Hence with or without a bug/exploit if the same individuals come up clean and consistently on top "care bears" are gonna find any reason to cry about it anyways. I for one could care less. I'll be caught dead before my real life friends start thinking I'm crying over a video game. SAD!

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
From the early leaderboard: it appears that Yuris Sayuri and Lain are still better than you.
QUICK SOMEONE FIND A REASON TO CRY!!!

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkin pie
OMG, Did Not Know There Is A Bug! and here I was thinking the winners are uber good at controlling their keyboard or have dexterity +10 fingers. mwahahahaha....
Your original thinking still holds true lad. The top players are still "better then you".

MoriaOrc

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2007

I was glad I got 35th daily spot on my first game. And also, my time from Canthan is still on quarterly. Of course, the daily time's gonna sink pretty quick (already dropped a few places). Gotta re-work my start "a little."

Grats to people like Yuris and Lain and Rofl who're really just that good. All I want this weekend is my rank 3 gamer, though.

Lain Akazukin

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

D/

Hmm I think I have to take back what I said about those multiple scores, it suddenly seems a lot easier for me to get those good times now. I guess racing has become such a routine after a while that when certain conditions have been met a good time is basically guaranteed to roll out. It works almost like a mathematical function.

Tatyana K

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2007

Who cares for records. I am just happy when I don't rubberband in a race.

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

I wish I could figure out how to improve my time, I got a lucky echo roller beetle for the double bridges to the second to last check point and with a knockdown early I got 463 for the first time ever. A shame it takes 468 just to get on the board lol.

TheHaxor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2007

two

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
From the early leaderboard: it appears that Yuris Sayuri and Lain are still better than you.

Either a) Double Ram didn't make a difference to the effectiveness of the strategy or b) ANet should WTB some new coders and testers.
ya well i wuz in grp wit u earlier n u wuz goin faster den me i think u wuz speed hackin u cheetr u always find exploit dat y u iz betta den vry 1 else

Ekelon

Ekelon

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Rebel Rising [rawr]

A/W

Good. I got my high scores without using double ram method anyways.

Kashrlyyk

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
...
Either a) Double Ram didn't make a difference to the effectiveness of the strategy ..
That is of no importance. It doesn´t matter if exploiting the bug had an effect. People got banned for getting 50000XP from repeatedly doing the doppleganger quest. No effect on the game, still they got banned. The same has to happen here.

You get banned for exploiting a bug, not for effecting the game.

Solas

Solas

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

Ireland

Currently LF Active HA Guild, Glad 2, Comm.3, R2

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
That is of no importance. It doesn´t matter if exploiting the bug had an effect. People got banned for getting 50000XP from repeatedly doing the doppleganger quest. No effect on the game, still they got banned. The same has to happen here.

You get banned for exploiting a bug, not for effecting the game.
I would give a max of a Temp ban, because some people may have found it out i tought it was ment to be like that.so would have to give some the benifit of the doubt.

Not a fan of the people that said "oh noes! its all skillz with the corner'n and thatz" that used the double ram effect purposly.

but the double ram did ruin Rollerbeetle racing for alot of players,maybe giving 100 beetles per rollerbeetle weekend?

Kashrlyyk

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed
I would give a max of a Temp ban, because some people may have found it out i tought it was ment to be like that.so would have to give some the benifit of the doubt.

Not a fan of the people that said "oh noes! its all skillz with the corner'n and thatz" that used the double ram effect purposly.

but the double ram did ruin Rollerbeetle racing for alot of players,maybe giving 100 beetles per rollerbeetle weekend?
A) It is not spamming. I think 3 days for spamming is too much and 3 days for cheating is too little.

B) They terminated accounts for less. I see no reason, why to treat cheaters nicer than people, who did something that didn´t stop anybody from achieving something.

It is now up to ANet to be consisting and sift the shit out.

http://www.plaync.com/us/help/roc_gw.html

Quote:
Please be aware that failure to comply with these rules of conduct may result in the termination of your Guild Wars game account according to the Guild Wars User Agreement.

....

You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars. Bugs should be promptly reported via 'Ask a Question' at http://support.guildwars.com.
They banned people because of that once, they have to ban now, too.

Lain Akazukin

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
That is of no importance. It doesn´t matter if exploiting the bug had an effect. People got banned for getting 50000XP from repeatedly doing the doppleganger quest. No effect on the game, still they got banned. The same has to happen here.

You get banned for exploiting a bug, not for effecting the game.
LOL, are you out of your mind? There was no way of telling for anyone that ram wasn't working as intended. To me it was just a nice tactic some people used, like knowing certain places where dash or ram works best. It's like a skill that's overpowered in combination with another skill, so they nerf the skill but they don't ban the players who used the combo because they found out it works really well.

crazybanshee

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Look out!

E/

Wow, you mean they fixed an exploit that allowed people to cheat and win? QQ. I'm glad.

Lykan

Lykan

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

StP

R/

Wooo what a suprise duplicates in the top 100 still havent been fixed, lame, not gonna bother playing, stupid anet fix your game.

Lain Akazukin

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazybanshee
Wow, you mean they fixed an exploit that allowed people to cheat and win? QQ. I'm glad.
Uhh no, the same players are still winning this time. With double ram you could maybe improve your best time by at most a second or so and get some more consistency in your times, if you were already a good racer that is. Average racers probably benefitted more from the 'exploit'.

Dronte

Dronte

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
Well, that kills my amazing strategy on getting high scores. Gg to ANet for fixing something that didn't need to be.

I guess I'll see how this changes things in Racing this weekend.
Amazing strategy? And didnt need to be? It was cheating, so plz QQ moar.

4thVariety

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

European Union

ADL

E/

Since the record times still are at least 20% faster than anything normal people achieve, there still has to be knowledge surrounding the bahaviour of the game that eludes the regular gamer. The sort of undocumented fair game ruining type. Speed stacking only does so much, so there is most likely more to it than simply activating it. What's more important is the fact that the names in the highscore are not random. Even the top players score time which are up to 5% faster than regular top100 enties. Being that much slower on average across the whole race can neither be attributed to a single drop or hitting the ideal line (they all do), The fact that even the top times differ that much has to do with the way they were achieved. Even among the people knowing the special behavior, some players can pull it off better than others. Hence Roflcopter stays within his margin while the Top1 seems to beat him easily over and over. A classic sign that something has to be done over and over during the whole race to gain these mystical +20% (or do it 5% better than Rofl.)

Which made me remeber a lesson form Quake about how strafing could increase your speed. This is usually fixed in today's games with the intruduction of a maximum speed limit, Quake3 did this and failed miserably since there was a workaround involving jumping. In the same way the skills maybe can be used to exploit the GW engine to the same extend.

The following article details how to exploit 3D engines into moving the players at speeds higher than the predetermined maximum.

www.funender.com/quake/info/strafing_theory.html

Instead of using bunny"jumps" players might use bunny"speedboosts" for the same result. Using a skill pretty much removes friction the same way jumping did. This could explain why the users still referr to it as a "tactic". It still is a major breakdown of the game engine which most likely can't be patched if Top100 times work like that.

Solas

Solas

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

Ireland

Currently LF Active HA Guild, Glad 2, Comm.3, R2

E/

I tried a bit of racing But
Does the first speedboost and ram work like the double ram?
obviosly its not as good, but i just noticed it and had to ask.

Shayne Hawke

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed
Does the first speedboost and ram work like the double ram?
obviosly its not as good, but i just noticed it and had to ask.
Doesn't even compare. I explained how the idea worked here.

MoriaOrc

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thVariety
Since the record times still are at least 20% faster than anything normal people achieve, there still has to be knowledge surrounding the bahaviour of the game that eludes the regular gamer. The sort of undocumented fair game ruining type. Speed stacking only does so much, so there is most likely more to it than simply activating it. What's more important is the fact that the names in the highscore are not random. Even the top players score time which are up to 5% faster than regular top100 enties. Being that much slower on average across the whole race can neither be attributed to a single drop or hitting the ideal line (they all do), The fact that even the top times differ that much has to do with the way they were achieved. Even among the people knowing the special behavior, some players can pull it off better than others. Hence Roflcopter stays within his margin while the Top1 seems to beat him easily over and over. A classic sign that something has to be done over and over during the whole race to gain these mystical +20% (or do it 5% better than Rofl.)

Which made me remeber a lesson form Quake about how strafing could increase your speed. This is usually fixed in today's games with the intruduction of a maximum speed limit, Quake3 did this and failed miserably since there was a workaround involving jumping. In the same way the skills maybe can be used to exploit the GW engine to the same extend.

The following article details how to exploit 3D engines into moving the players at speeds higher than the predetermined maximum.

www.funender.com/quake/info/strafing_theory.html

Instead of using bunny"jumps" players might use bunny"speedboosts" for the same result. Using a skill pretty much removes friction the same way jumping did. This could explain why the users still referr to it as a "tactic". It still is a major breakdown of the game engine which most likely can't be patched if Top100 times work like that.
I'm sorry, but you have no idea what your talking about. Getting a top 100 is a matter of three things:
1) item use strategy - Use the items you get to their maximum effect.
2) getting lucky - You need certain drops from the boxes before certain points. You have to avoid knockdown or de-synch at the beginning of the race. Getting a good starting color helps.
3) good ping - Pings above a certain amount are definitely not playable if you're going for top 100.
#2 takes a quite few trys, but everyone can get the right combination after enough runs.
#3 is unfortunate, but also not a matter of player skill. Plenty of people have low enough pings, though.
#1 is the problem for most players. I've been in races with plenty of people who get an echo-SRB, and while they can use it to win, most players have no idea how to use it for a top 100. They also hit dash at bad locations, and usually use ram as an attack instead of a speed boost (which is a bad idea if you want top-100).

The problem with #1 is that the mechanics of RBR are not obvious at all. You have the "RRPMs" which is a very non-obvious mechanic, and it doesn't work quite like it seems it should. You have useful skills like ram that don't mention their important mechanics (speed boost). It's because they haven't taken the time to learn the mechanicsor the track well enough that they don't know when to use rams / dashes / Echo-SRBs for best effect. This is not a fault on their part. You don't need to do these things to have a bunch of fun races, and I didn't for the first several RBR events. But if you want a top 100 time, you have to put in some time learning the game to get it.

I got 469k with a lucky Echo-SRB + no knockdown on my first race this weekend. I know a few ways I could have done quite a bit better with it, too.

Kashrlyyk

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lain Akazukin
LOL, are you out of your mind? There was no way of telling for anyone that ram wasn't working as intended. To me it was just a nice tactic some people used, like knowing certain places where dash or ram works best. It's like a skill that's overpowered in combination with another skill, so they nerf the skill but they don't ban the players who used the combo because they found out it works really well.
First of all they didn´t nerf an overpowered skill, they fixed a bug! That is a very important difference.

Second of all read the explanation of the bug given by Shayne Hawke. That was known since the last time people could win Rollerbeetles, to the exploiters maybe even longer. So they knew about the bug and exploited it.

Third of all ANet now has to look, if they can find the exploiters and then have to ban them.


Would a player, that never repeated any mission in Prophecies before the doppleganger, know that he should not get the experience reward every single time he beats the mission? Would he know it was a bug? Or would he think it was a weird feature? Remember, if it seems to be too good, maybe it is. That is the official stance.

Lain Akazukin

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
First of all they didn´t nerf an overpowered skill, they fixed a bug! That is a very important difference.
There was no way of telling that it was actually a bug or that ram was simply working as intended, I surely didn't see it as a bug even though I didn't know about the double ram tactic and never used it. I certainly would have used it though if I happened to find it out during my races. But as shown this weekend it doesn't make much difference for the top times anyways.

Quote:
Second of all read the explanation of the bug given by Shayne Hawke. That was known since the last time people could win Rollerbeetles, to the exploiters maybe even longer. So they knew about the bug and exploited it.
No, they didn't know it was a bug, for them it was just a tactic that worked well.

Quote:
Third of all ANet now has to look, if they can find the exploiters and then have to ban them.
You're really funny. First of all they are not going to do this, and second of all it would be impossible to do. End of story, now QQ some more plz.

Kashrlyyk

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lain Akazukin
There was no way of telling that it was actually a bug or that ram was simply working as intended, I surely didn't see it as a bug even though I didn't know about the double ram tactic and never used it. I certainly would have used it though if I happened to find it out during my races. But as shown this weekend it doesn't make much difference for the top times anyways.
ANets stance on that is: We didn´t know it, but you should have known. Remember the duping! If it seems too good, maybe it is. Being able to run for 4 seconds at 100% seems to be too good. Doesn´t Ram run at 100% no matter what underground you are on?

And the 50000XP bans showed us, that it doesn´t matter, that the exploit had no effect. The rules of conduct don´t say, you only get banned, if your exploiting hurts others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lain Akazukin
You're really funny. First of all they are not going to do this, and second of all it would be impossible to do. End of story, now QQ some more plz.
If you used it for 90% of your victories or races, you were exploiting a bug. Problem solved.

Lain Akazukin

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
ANets stance on that is: We didn´t know it, but you should have known. Remember the duping! If it seems too good, maybe it is. Being able to run for 4 seconds at 100% seems to be too good. Doesn´t Ram run at 100% no matter what underground you are on?
Yes that's the way ram works, so what? An srb is even better, omg it must be a bug because it's so good! Please...

Quote:
If you used it for 90% of your victories or races, you were exploiting a bug. Problem solved.
Yeah whatever, I'm happy ANet doesn't follow your silly logic. For me this discussion is over now, I'm gonna race some more now exploiting all rams and dashes to the max!

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lain Akazukin
Yeah whatever, I'm happy ANet doesn't follow your silly logic. For me this discussion is over now, I'm gonna race some more now exploiting all rams and dashes to the max!
I wish I knew what to do so I can piss everyone off too!

jeff7878

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

Actually i think some of the people getting in the top 100 list are useing helpers, If you go too the asian dis1 korean language. You will find some of them there counting down too try and get in at the same time. It seems they go too a empty dis with hardly any people and count down together too try and get in at the same time. I was in there earlier today and seen some doing it next thing i know that same names where on the top 100 list. I should have take some screenies..But i was kinda pissed has this may be a reason why the ones on the top list have such high scores and it always seems too be the same people at the top. Of course i may be wrong too.