Guild Wars or Grind Wars? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

29 Apr 2008 at 17:03 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Also, send me Fallout 2 and I'll point out the grind.

There's no need to- you won't be able to point out grind. Because there isn't any. But if I need to send you a copy of FO2 then it'd mean you've never played it, right?

Quote:

Hell, killing X amount of Locusts in Gears of War is practiclly a grind. Kill untill a door opens.

Oh, and by Gears of War you mean THE Gears of War, release on xbrick and PC?
Yeah, "next-gen" games fail a lot. Doesn't mean there aren't games without grind or that grind is a part of a game.
And for the record- http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=130

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

29 Apr 2008 at 17:12 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Why do people want to be essentially "addicted" to Guild Wars?

GW tried to enter MMO arena as one where your character is not limited by some artificial factors. There's a considerable number of players that like the MMO concept, but are incapable in any way to play them due to sheer time constraints.

Original design of GW delivered on that, and even adapted (removal of xp needed to respec, lowering of skill cost, unlocked skills learnable at trainers,...).

That was a mighty appeal.

The reason isn't so much about addiction, it's about having no real alternatives. Every game out there that in any way resembles an MMORPG is a 1-to-1 WoW clone.

It's more about seeing the alternative going away, rather than being so dedicated to GW.

The ultimate problem with grind-based achievements is that there's never enough of them. And trying to satisfy grind oriented players is impossible, since no matter how high the barrier is set, they'll achieve it. Unfortunately, this leaves 99% or 99.99% or 99.9999% of players out of the loop.

There were certain, by now beaten to a pulp, features requested which would improve on certain parts of GW not related to direct combat. And while those were never in any way addressed, adding grind content was never an issue. And still, adding HM was probably a bit more work than adding character customization would be.

It's not about actual absence of content, it's about direction.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

29 Apr 2008 at 17:14 - 163

Hm, I seem to have missed this, and will comment on it since it's the point I support:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

"All grind is optional because you can complete the story without the pve skills"
- This is the fallacy of the undistributed middle. Yes, you can complete the story line without the PvE skills, however the storyline is a only a small subset of the PvE game.

...That *is* the PvE game. It's the same as what's happened in Final Fantasy, Mass Effect, KotOR, Neverwinter Nights, The Witcher...pretty much *every* RPG. Once you beat the game, you've beaten the game. Why do you feel like you should have to come back? How is Guild Wars different?

Antheus: I'm not sure what you mean about alternatives...Alternatives to WoW? To GW? Because to both I know plenty.

I also don't recall ANet ever wanting to enter the MMO arena. I've always heard them call it a "competitive online RPG" - and it's just that. I think it's more people coming into Guild Wars wanting it to be an MMO that became a problem.

CagedinSanity

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Away from you.

W/

29 Apr 2008 at 18:03 - 164

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

There's no need to- you won't be able to point out grind. Because there isn't any. But if I need to send you a copy of FO2 then it'd mean you've never played it, right?

Oh, and by Gears of War you mean THE Gears of War, release on xbrick and PC?
Yeah, "next-gen" games fail a lot. Doesn't mean there aren't games without grind or that grind is a part of a game.
And for the record- http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=130

Well now you're just trying to be snide.

Obviously I haven't played every game on the planet, and neither have you. But there is some form of grind in all/most games. If you beat a game once, and go back and play, you're essentially grinding something. It's minor, but it exists.
Your "anti-next-gen" attitude does not mean something isn't true.

I'm not bashing the concept of grind, it's not always a bad thing. More often than not it helps a game's replay value.

keli

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Budapest

E/

29 Apr 2008 at 18:08 - 165

Guild Wars (this was discussed before)

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

29 Apr 2008 at 19:27 - 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Well now you're just trying to be snide.

Obviously I haven't played every game on the planet, and neither have you. But there is some form of grind in all/most games. If you beat a game once, and go back and play, you're essentially grinding something. It's minor, but it exists.
Your "anti-next-gen" attitude does not mean something isn't true.

I'm not bashing the concept of grind, it's not always a bad thing. More often than not it helps a game's replay value.

i.e. Grind is subjective. My friend just the other day was complaining about Proph's 1-20 level grind.

...Yeah, apparently playing the game is grinding now :I

But I think it's the difference between "grind" and "forced grind", and what the majority considers grind.

Thizzle

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2008

29 Apr 2008 at 19:43 - 167

I don't want hear anyhting about the level cap. I can get 20 in 4 hours or less. When I play the game normally you still level up at a good paste.

Alleji

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

29 Apr 2008 at 22:09 - 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

Guild Wars (this was discussed before)

I think you mean...

GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS GUILD WARS

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

29 Apr 2008 at 23:04 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Well now you're just trying to be snide.

Obviously I haven't played every game on the planet, and neither have you. But there is some form of grind in all/most games. If you beat a game once, and go back and play, you're essentially grinding something. It's minor, but it exists.

Oh, I see. You haven't played every game on the planet but you just KNOW there is grind in all/most games.
Yeah, and replaying the game isn't grinding. It's called... what was it? Ah, replaying the game. In the above Fallout 2 I can play the first time as a good diplomat and then replay it as a childkilling bastard with flamethrower.

Quote:

...Yeah, apparently playing the game is grinding now :I

Yes, human beings are pretty amazing.

FlamingMetroid

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

standing on your last control point, while the rest of your team is to busy killing mine

The Luminaries [Lumi]

A/

29 Apr 2008 at 23:09 - 170

I think theres WAY to much grind in GW. GW was a game meant to be played on and off, which is why grind was never a part of prophecies. Adding grind to a game only encourages players to become ravenous about it, and soon you've just got another WoW.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

30 Apr 2008 at 00:22 - 171

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Hm, I seem to have missed this, and will comment on it since it's the point I support:

...That *is* the PvE game. It's the same as what's happened in Final Fantasy, Mass Effect, KotOR, Neverwinter Nights, The Witcher...pretty much *every* RPG. Once you beat the game, you've beaten the game. Why do you feel like you should have to come back? How is Guild Wars different?

Antheus: I'm not sure what you mean about alternatives...Alternatives to WoW? To GW? Because to both I know plenty.

I also don't recall ANet ever wanting to enter the MMO arena. I've always heard them call it a "competitive online RPG" - and it's just that. I think it's more people coming into Guild Wars wanting it to be an MMO that became a problem.

That's because they (Anet) Accepted the Awards for MMO of the Year, MMORPG of the YEAR. Had they stepped up and said ...noooo we are sorry,but, we are NOT an MMO or an MMORPG and we cannot accept these awards then it might have turned out differently, but, ANET stood up there and accepted those awards and splashed them all over creation that they had won them too....sooo, did they LIE? It'd be like me accepting the Super Bowl Trophy except I didn't play in the super bowl only the back yard intramural football bowl. lol

Issac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

Earthrealm

W/A

30 Apr 2008 at 00:31 - 172

Some of those titles are pretty good and fun, and require skill like the protector ones. Then theirs the grind ones that just blow. Like the reputation and SS and LB. They should make those titles account based.

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

30 Apr 2008 at 00:35 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...That *is* the PvE game.

The GW story line is the equivilent of PvP's random arena - you complete it in order to unlock the required skills, locations and equipment in order to play the game. It provides no challenge and no meaniful measure of success. Once it is complete you can start playing the real PvE guildwars in a game that rewards skill over time.

Quote:

It's the same as what's happened in Final Fantasy, Mass Effect, KotOR, Neverwinter Nights, The Witcher...pretty much *every* RPG. Once you beat the game, you've beaten the game. Why do you feel like you should have to come back? How is Guild Wars different?

Can I point you back at the package deal fallacy?

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

30 Apr 2008 at 00:59 - 174

GW's business model doesn't work if people keep expecting new content outside of new expansions/campaigns. Normal MMOs try to eat as much of your time as possible so they can keep you paying monthly fees to slowly grind through stuff. As I've said before, grind is the MMO developer's best friend, because it means you don't have to add any real content to keep people playing the game.

If the original premise of GW is to be believed, everybody was supposed to play PvE as a warmup and then switch into the real game - PvP. PvP doesn't really need additional content, because all of the fun is provided by your competition. As long as the playerbase keeps getting better at the game (thus providing more and more challenge to each other), all Anet really had to do was sit back and balance skills, and people would keep playing the game forever - or at least until something better came along. Competition is absolutely the best content around in this respect, because it's self-generating as long as the game mechanics are deep enough to support extended growth of player skill. Case in point: a lot of really old fighting and strategy games are still played at the tournament level to this day.

What's more damning is that some (many? most?) people are not only willing to grind, but actually welcome it. Epeen actually means something to these people. Why wouldn't Anet make them happy, if it takes them almost no effort to do ("hmm, we'll just introduce a new title and set an arbitrary maximum") and keeps people on the hook until they can come out with their next cool gig?

Finally, I'll say it again: Anet tied titles to in-game benefits because skill > time doesn't work for too many players. If players actually had to be good at this game (actually, nevermind good, let's try for 'passable' first), they might as well not play. Ursan is Anet's money-back guarantee. No matter how deathly stupid you are, as long as you invest the time, you can be l33t too! It's that simple.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

30 Apr 2008 at 14:19 - 175

But doing them once is just fine.

Why to have to make them so many times with different characters.
You get Hard Mode with all character that reach level 20 after finishing a campaign ONCE.

Why not give the ranks to level 20 characters after finishing the campaign and getting them maxed once?

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

30 Apr 2008 at 14:29 - 176

its all in the mind, if you think you are grinding, you are

if you think you are having fun playing guild wars then you are having fun.

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under., its Guild Wars, not Grind Wars, now go have fun. Three, two, one... You're back in the room.

Gregslot

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Me/

30 Apr 2008 at 16:29 - 177

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

its all in the mind, if you think you are grinding, you are

if you think you are having fun playing guild wars then you are having fun.

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under., its Guild Wars, not Grind Wars, now go have fun. Three, two, one... You're back in the room.

Dude... what have you been using?
Save some for me please?

Its not that its not fun, but god dammit, imagine yourself doing all vanquish in ascalon all over again! Or the Charr areas!
If you have done it once you will NEVER want to go back to that place again.
Specially Grothmar Wardowns

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

30 Apr 2008 at 16:41 - 178

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

That's because they (Anet) Accepted the Awards for MMO of the Year, MMORPG of the YEAR. Had they stepped up and said ...noooo we are sorry,but, we are NOT an MMO or an MMORPG and we cannot accept these awards then it might have turned out differently, but, ANET stood up there and accepted those awards and splashed them all over creation that they had won them too....sooo, did they LIE? It'd be like me accepting the Super Bowl Trophy except I didn't play in the super bowl only the back yard intramural football bowl. lol

Any publicity is better than no publicity at all. And sadly, one of the biggest selling points for Guild Wars has been others labeling it as a "free to play MMO!!!"

And if they have stated it was an MMO, I'd like to see it. You won't find it on the Guild Wars page.

Quote:

The GW story line is the equivilent of PvP's random arena - you complete it in order to unlock the required skills, locations and equipment in order to play the game. It provides no challenge and no meaniful measure of success. Once it is complete you can start playing the real PvE guildwars in a game that rewards skill over time.

What? Dunno about you, but I was pretty damned satisfied when I beat all the storylines, and for me it was indeed pretty challenging. These days no, but that's because I've beaten them plenty of times. You can't apply those terms, "success" and "challenge", when they are fully subjective.

It's kind of like how people complained about how short Fable was. They just beat the main quest and said "done", but there was sooo much more to do in the game.

Hermos

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2007

Forever in Demand [FiD]

A/

30 Apr 2008 at 17:46 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Chang

Yep.... all Grind nowadays.

Lolno. It's all optional. NONE of it is necessary, apart from if you count the four map pieces as grind... and even that was a reference to WoW, iirc.

Stating personal opinion as fact ftl.

Zsig

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2007

30 Apr 2008 at 19:09 - 180

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Its not that its not fun, but god dammit, imagine yourself doing all vanquish in ascalon all over again! Or the Charr areas!
If you have done it once you will NEVER want to go back to that place again.
Specially Grothmar Wardowns

QFT. (12 charac.)

Thizzle

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2008

30 Apr 2008 at 19:41 - 181

In EoTN everything after your max title is kind of grinding if you want to consider it that. Let's assume you get 10,000 points just from beating EoTN alone in your norn reputation. Now you go and do all the dungeons, quest, and hard mode. You will get exactly 160,000 reputation points from this and that's rank 10. Unless you want titles in KoABD then you anet is kind of assuming you dedicate your allegiance to one reputation, kind of how factions was with luxon and kurzick. If you want to max all four reputation titles then your in for a long haul.

I really think these titles should be account based. I wouldn't mind grinding for that because then no matter what character I create or make, I won't have to re-grind or re-do what I did to earn those reputation points in the first place and I can go play a different allegiance. It's weird they made factions how they did and not EoTN.

It's the same with sunspear and lightbringer. It's not even considerably hard until after maybe rank 7 in sunspear and rank 4 lightbringer. This is when you start grinding Remains of Sahlahja. That's the main things you grind and that's it.

Deleet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Denmark

Rule Thirty Four [prOn]

Mo/

30 Apr 2008 at 21:51 - 182

What is more important. How is GW2 going to be?
They will never remove the PvE skills and titles now, there is not really any point in discussing it. However, it may not be to late for GW2 yet. I hope you're reading this ANet. "skill > time" is a unique philosophy and it does well. There is no need to resort to the tested and working "time > skill". It is not new, and it is definitely not friendly to casual players.

I'm a student and I don't have much time. I am also a competitive person, I want to excel at games, but I can't excel at Guild Wars, because it is required to grind PvE-skill titles in order to join groups.

I could go on.

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

30 Apr 2008 at 22:08 - 183

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

What is more important. How is GW2 going to be?
They will never remove the PvE skills and titles now, there is not really any point in discussing it. However, it may not be to late for GW2 yet. I hope you're reading this ANet. "skill > time" is a unique philosophy and it does well. There is no need to resort to the tested and working "time > skill". It is not new, and it is definitely not friendly to casual players.

I'm a student and I don't have much time. I am also a competitive person, I want to excel at games, but I can't excel at Guild Wars, because it is required to grind PvE-skill titles in order to join groups.

I could go on.

Seeing how they're not interested in removing UB, fat chance on GW2 not having titles.

Also the whole purpose of the skill not time is based more on PvP than PvE with the whole PvE UB, SY!, Inverter going about.

RedNova88

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

Behind you!

W/

30 Apr 2008 at 22:31 - 184

Well I think it's still too early to freak out over what GW2 could be. Simply because we have yet to really know what it will be like. Since in many of the interviews it's stated more than once that not a lot is set in stone yet. We can only hope and pray that Anet will re-align themselves with their roots, otherwise we're in trouble.

Deleet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Denmark

Rule Thirty Four [prOn]

Mo/

30 Apr 2008 at 22:46 - 185

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

Well I think it's still too early to freak out over what GW2 could be. Simply because we have yet to really know what it will be like. Since in many of the interviews it's stated more than once that not a lot is set in stone yet. We can only hope and pray that Anet will re-align themselves with their roots, otherwise we're in trouble.

I guess this was for me.

I'm not freaking out. It seems that ANet has moved more in the direction of "time > skill". It seems plausible that they will reuse ideas from GW1 in GW2, why else would it be called a successor?

Phoenix Tears

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2007

01 May 2008 at 01:19 - 186

GW is since factions poorly only Grind Wars too me.
They made imo GW from part to party only worser with adding ever more and more bad grind and shit concepts that are crap thought out, when beign anyhow something better, than 5 Minute retarded ideas being implemented, what especially Nightfall shows...

ogre_jd

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Canadia

W/

01 May 2008 at 03:45 - 187

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

I'm a student and I don't have much time. I am also a competitive person, I want to excel at games, but I can't excel at Guild Wars, because it is required to grind PvE-skill titles in order to join groups.

Still can't figure out why people think that because, except maybe for those PUGs that constantly spam Local and/or abuse the Party Search (same thing, most of the time), it's not hard at all to get into PUGs, even decent ones.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

01 May 2008 at 05:30 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Dude... what have you been using?
Save some for me please?

Its not that its not fun, but god dammit, imagine yourself doing all vanquish in ascalon all over again! Or the Charr areas!
If you have done it once you will NEVER want to go back to that place again.
Specially Grothmar Wardowns

lol yes you can, here you go

PS: your logic of "If you have done it once you will NEVER want to go back to that place again." which brings us back to make one character. if you so love guildwars that you make 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ,11, 12, or one thousand characters, you must love doing everything in GW to have created another character in the first place. Why did you create another character if you do not want to repeat playing guildwars? Which then brings us back to the question guild wars or grind wars, and it goes round and round and round and round..... never ending.

how to solve the problem: make one character.

Lawrence Chang

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

United States

[SOHE]

W/

01 May 2008 at 05:53 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Being a Diablo 2 LOD veteran of 6 years I find grinding no big deal since D2lod is nothing but one long grind. I'v killed those bosses so many times it cant be counted. Guildwars grind titles atleast keep players actively doing something.

What if there was NO grinding at all? You would beat the game, and then have nothing left to do. atleast this way, you can do everything on a character, then if you still enjoy the game, repeat it with other characters. Grinding also gives you a reason to repeatedly kill monsters, which drop loot, which you sell, which gives you gold. So by the time you grind the title you've made a nice amount of plat to buy something worth while. So grinding is actually quite nice.

And this way you get a title for farming.

It could be worse. Alot worse. they could up the point values of each title by 100,000, or even into the millions. And it doesnt take that long to grind away titles.

Besides, I'v never heard someone say. "i cant pvp or gvg because I havnt finished grinding yet. This title is keeping me from getting that uber weapon to beat all weapons. I had to spend an extra 100k on that item because I didnt have this title."

Grinding is a minor issue. Loot scaling and heroes/henchies getting drops is a bigger issue than grinding IMO.

The last Rank of the Kind of a big deal title should be MC GrindMaster.

However, in Diablo 2/LOD, there was a PURPOSE in the grind, which made it fun. Rush -> CS -> Baal. That was the quickest way. Sure, there is a long grind of CS and Baal runs, but there was a purpose in that, and that was to get leveled up for more life/skill/attribute/mana points, something that will actually benefit you in PK/PvP. Seriously, compare D2 grind with GW grind. In D2, you can actually withstand it. But in GW, you get bored easily, and for what? A title that has no real effect on a character?

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

01 May 2008 at 06:17 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Chang

Seriously, compare D2 grind with GW grind. In D2, you can actually withstand it. But in GW, you get bored easily, and for what? A title that has no real effect on a character?

I found D2 incredibly grindy boring after a while, even with the LOD. Meanwhile, you do get some benifit of some of the titles in GW.

Grind and it's fun are all in perspective. Achievable grind numbers usually are less of an issue, and that's in the perspective of different people. Some people like repetitive play, Some people find less repetitive ways to grind (even if slower), some people spread it out over time to make it feel less repetitive, and some people simply just avoid it.

As mentioned, it's not needed, some think it's fun, you can get to reasonable ranks of most of them with little trouble outside of normal play (R4-5 in EotN rep, R8 Sunspear), and the truly grindy ones (Drunkard, Sweet tooth, party animal, Survivor/Legendary Defender) are truly optional. There are worse grinds, and games with worse grind than GW.

Sol Deathgard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Shadows of the Dragon

W/N

01 May 2008 at 08:32 - 191

W/o the titles (which let's be honest, what grind there is, is no where near as bad as other games like this) I would have quit playing this game a long time ago & just waited for GW2. People complain about the skills that get better with titles, but do you HAVE to use any of them? If you can honestly say that someone is standing next to you with a gun pointed at your head if you don't max those skill titles then ya, I agree it sux. but most of you aren't in a life or death situation so maxing any & all titles are completely optional. That means you don't have to do any of them if you don't want to. Don't wanna use Ursan? then don't. "but I can't pug if I don't use ursan" I see plenty of groups for uw & fow that aren't using ursan everyday, stop using that as an excuse & play the game how you want, and leave the rest of us alone.

Deleet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Denmark

Rule Thirty Four [prOn]

Mo/

01 May 2008 at 11:20 - 192

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Still can't figure out why people think that because, except maybe for those PUGs that constantly spam Local and/or abuse the Party Search (same thing, most of the time), it's not hard at all to get into PUGs, even decent ones.

Think what? That we can't excel because of titles?

I don't know where and when you play, but if I wanted to find a non-pve-skill-hm group for any mission, that is pretty much impossible. The only area that has enough players to form groups, in my experience, is EotN. And they usually require Ursan skills if you're a non-monk.

About the excel point. Excel = better than other people. I can't be better than them because they spent many hours grinding.

Deleet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Denmark

Rule Thirty Four [prOn]

Mo/

01 May 2008 at 11:22 - 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Chang

However, in Diablo 2/LOD, there was a PURPOSE in the grind, which made it fun. Rush -> CS -> Baal. That was the quickest way. Sure, there is a long grind of CS and Baal runs, but there was a purpose in that, and that was to get leveled up for more life/skill/attribute/mana points, something that will actually benefit you in PK/PvP. Seriously, compare D2 grind with GW grind. In D2, you can actually withstand it. But in GW, you get bored easily, and for what? A title that has no real effect on a character?

These points always fail. It doesn't matter if other games have a relatively higher amount of grind.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

02 May 2008 at 11:35 - 194

You can even consider having to get to level 20 a grind.

But you can do so in under 6 hours, even in less.

Some titles may take more than 3 years to anyone that plays 7..14 hours weekly. And that would be also by giving up on other titles.

Titles, like getting to level 20 or getting all skills, should be something like anyone can do in less than one year per character. Not something for a few.

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

02 May 2008 at 11:53 - 195

I even don't want to know how can getting to lvl 20 be considered grinding when you can gain exp by killing monsters, doing missions, doing quests, even doing pvp.
Repeating and doing the same thing over and over?
Yeah, of course.

Targuil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

Tampere, Finland

Keep Dreaming [Yawn]

E/

02 May 2008 at 12:54 - 196

Even real life is grind. You must do your job to get money over and over again. And to get job, you must study a lot. Well... it's like farming or grinding levels. Just virtual vs real.

Deleet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Denmark

Rule Thirty Four [prOn]

Mo/

02 May 2008 at 13:11 - 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

I even don't want to know how can getting to lvl 20 be considered grinding when you can gain exp by killing monsters, doing missions, doing quests, even doing pvp.
Repeating and doing the same thing over and over?
Yeah, of course.

Depends on how you define grinding. Usually it is something like this:

Grinding := A repetitive action.

Some people get more easily bored than others, it first feels like grinding when it gets boring.
'Action' is a little vague, surely clicking the mouse is an action, therefore all gaming is grinding. This is, of course, untrue. It has to be some specific action, therefore the second definition is:

Grinding := A repetitive specific action.

What exactly counts as specific? It's probably best to mention 10 examples which we consider grinding and look for something that is identical in all cases. I'm too lazy to do so right now, but I can imagine that killing with the same build is specific, and therefore grinding. This will include all farming, and static-metagame PvP. I.e. where there is no change in metagame.

Paloma Song

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

[JM]

Rt/R

02 May 2008 at 17:00 - 198

Titles don't bother me by themselves. I like the idea of cosmetic upgrades to characters that cost money and time but don't influence the game - I think the elite armor system in GW is spectacular and puts EQ-style loot games like WoW to shame (caveat: I play WoW too). It gives die-hards something to do and something to brag about without actually giving them an advantage over casual players. But, the titles aren't just cosmetic, and any honest person will admit that those who grind titles have a very large PvE edge over those who do not, both in terms of getting groups and succeeding in them. I consider that a sad state of affairs for a game with the mantra skill > time.

That said, I would rather have the title grind than go back to Prophecies without Factions/Nightfall. Prophecies kinda sucked. The title grinds in F/NF were minimal, and they pale beside the enormous amount of casual-friendly content the expansions introduced (particularly heroes). The real problem child is GWEN, which, save for a couple of the dungeons, turns faction grind into the endgame - bugger that, the whole game.

So no, I wouldn't give up Nightfall or Factions, especially Factions. But GWEN... you can take it back. Most of the title grind problems came in with GWEN. I'd rather have had the original Mayan campaign GWEN was spawned out of, and I'd rather have more campaigns period, than the sloppy piece of grindy crap that was GWEN.

Monk of Demise

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

Atlanta, GA

Droknars Arena Dogs

Mo/R

02 May 2008 at 17:54 - 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paloma Song

Titles don't bother me by themselves. I like the idea of cosmetic upgrades to characters that cost money and time but don't influence the game - I think the elite armor system in GW is spectacular and puts EQ-style loot games like WoW to shame (caveat: I play WoW too). It gives die-hards something to do and something to brag about without actually giving them an advantage over casual players. But, the titles aren't just cosmetic, and any honest person will admit that those who grind titles have a very large PvE edge over those who do not, both in terms of getting groups and succeeding in them. I consider that a sad state of affairs for a game with the mantra skill > time.

That said, I would rather have the title grind than go back to Prophecies without Factions/Nightfall. Prophecies kinda sucked. The title grinds in F/NF were minimal, and they pale beside the enormous amount of casual-friendly content the expansions introduced (particularly heroes). The real problem child is GWEN, which, save for a couple of the dungeons, turns faction grind into the endgame - bugger that, the whole game.

So no, I wouldn't give up Nightfall or Factions, especially Factions. But GWEN... you can take it back. Most of the title grind problems came in with GWEN. I'd rather have had the original Mayan campaign GWEN was spawned out of, and I'd rather have more campaigns period, than the sloppy piece of grindy crap that was GWEN.

/agree 100%

GWEN is all grind, point farming, rep books, you name it. No way i am doing this for multiple toons and enjoying it. GWEN titles need to be account based.

romeus petrus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

Urgoz Warren

Legion of Doom [LOD] Home of PWNZILLA http://PWNZILLA.guildlaunch.com

02 May 2008 at 18:47 - 200

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk of Demise

GWEN titles need to be account based.

Better yet, GWEN title need to be removed fom the game.