Guild Wars or Grind Wars?

Imo, you should apply for a job at ArenaNet. You seem to know what to do.

He would probably be laughed out of the interview.

Nah, I wouldn't want to work with such stupid people.

I would rather work for Blizzard.

You make a strong point about you are not force to grind which is true, but if you even want to think about doing the DoA then you best have a very high rank in lightbringer and that is where the grinding begins. You could do it without any titles at all and it only makes the game harder so the only logical thing to do is get the titles that give you a better bonus.

You still think you don't need to grind? They're are idiots that I've seen in AB asking for r5+ (allegiance not hero!) and that titles means absolutely nothing... I mean nothing! Then I tell this player that and he flashes me with bambi. 180 fame isn't something to gloat about IMO. I'm not trying to QQ about these idiots, but this is what I mean everyone has the mindset that the more titles gives you a bigger e-penis. This is all a good mixture for selfish, arrogant, and egotistical players.

One thing I can handle and gives me a reason to put up with things like this is no monthly charge, you can't beat that.

PvP was definitely the profecies end-game. I'm sure this has been said numerous times before on this forum but guild wars wasn't originally designed to sustain PvEers interest in PvE which is why the PvE system isn't as compelling as it is in many other games.

I agree with this generally. GW has had many added features which have basically no bad side-effects (e.g. templates). PvE titles intended to appease the PvE community's desire for more reasons to keep playing, but the cost has been the shifting this community's focus toward grind.

The easiest way to sustain a pve playerbase without constantly adding new content is by adding grind. Since Anet doesn't seem to have the business model to support endless PvE content I think/hope in GW2 they'll try to improve the accessibility and general appeal of pvp for PvEers who're looking for an endgame.

Oddly they could achieve much the same result in GW if they made Kurzick/Luxon points accrue significantly faster through AB than through HFFF. Granted they'd need to increase the faction cap beyond 10k, but that shouldn't be difficult.

Anyway, I hate how grind focussed the game has become because

1. I don't like always feeling tempted to use Ursan, max pve titles, and get vanity armor to fit in and/or prove I'm an experienced player
2. When players grind they're not playing the game for fun as much as they would otherwise, instead they're trying to achieve as much as possible as quickly as possible. The fact that many other people are playing the game and not having as much fun as they used to makes the community as a whole more disgruntled. Even if a person is having lots of fun in the game, the discontent of the community worsens the playing environment since this is a MMO game.

Just getting my $ 0.02 in.

I searched grinding like all the people who said there are tons of these threads and the first page maybe had one thing that totally made sense. Make more titles account based. It makes total sense, I don't think anyone with more than 5 characters wants to take them all through EoTN.

If Anet is truly as horrible as you have described over the last fifty posts of yours, is it possible for you to prove that you can do better than merely baseless claims?

Here are some questions to get you started:
How much time will you dedicate yourself into programming these games?
What programming language do you know?
What degrees of Computer Science or software-related majors do you have?
What will you do to keep the veterans of the game still facinated and dedicated into playing?

Instead of adding things, how about just rerolling back to Proph only?

There isn't alot of things that are possible to do that will bring the game back to it's golden age, unless it's a significant change. Even then, no amount of change will stop this game from dying.

And if you ask me, I think NCSoft have done a good job maintaining what is left of Guild Wars. Although they did hurt themselves buisness-wise a few times.

depends on where you PUG.

Pug in the normal missions, and you can get in with just about anything, though some players I've heard say "Don't take the Sin/Paragon/Mesmer" (The last was funny as I was a mesmer in the group at the time).

PUG the elite areas, and it's Required builds (or now ursan) for a lot of teams. Doesn't mean everyone will be that way, but many are.

I'm paraphrasing the essence of the pro-grind arguements as I have read them - If I've misrepresented, feel free to point them out.

"The grind in guildwars is good because other games have much more"
- This logical fallacy is known as relative privation. The existance of a something that is worse, does not make the subject better.

"Guildwars is an RPG and therefore needs grind"
- This is the package deal fallacy. Just because two things have been associated with one another in the past does not mean that the association is a good thing.

"All grind is optional because you can complete the story without the pve skills"
- This is the fallacy of the undistributed middle. Yes, you can complete the story line without the PvE skills, however the storyline is a only a small subset of the PvE game.

"Grind is fun"
- This is the only valid argument I've heard for why guildwars grind should exist and is countered by the equally valid argument "Grind is not fun".

but of course grind by definition is anything but fun.

U prolly mis interpreted the statement "Me Like Whacky Whacky" somewhere

i lol'd

but really, do we need another one of these threads, or did the last one get closed (again)?

Aren't you the one who's hinted that you DO work for A-net?

Quoted For the Thread Win

Quoted again for truth. And do you notice it's always the same handful of people that say something is dead or that Pugging suks and you have to grind. lol Same people over n over doing the disco whine <quack quack> Maybe they should try playing at times that aren't prime time when you don't have a lot of 8 year olds playing. I play from 10pm at night central time up until 230pm if I want to (when the 8 year olds get out of school) perhaps that is why I don't often see bad or suky pugs. But, it's not the pugging to me it's the times you play and of course if you play during prime time you are going to find more 8 year olds and make pugs look bad. Not my problem, I don't have those issues. Most of the people I group with are late 20's and early 30's at least that's what they tell me and definitely don't act like 8 year olds drawing penises on the screen or going off doing autistic things.

I do look for grind in GW2 though, they have proven that people actually like it even with the handful that complain about it online. Complainers always whine of course and that's why it might look like a majority of people don't like grind, but, the population of posters online at any given site isn't any quality representation of the population of the game as a whole. It's merely what that website population thinks and once again those are usually always whinners and criers and babies, those that would throw temper tantrums because the game isn't exactly how they want it to be.

Just tah let yah know though I'm always for any kind of improvements to the game even if it's not what 100% of the population wants, everything added to the game is something someone enjoys and no game is ever going to please everyone in the game all the time. Just have to find what you like and play that part of it. When you no longer find any fun in the game, MOVE ON your whines are rarely going to change anything....notice grind is still here and even more of it was introduced when GWEN/EOTN was released <grin> You'll see more in GW2 if you buy it.

No not really required builds, but, a build you must use if you are "IMPATIENT". You can get a pug anywhere provided you are willing to invest the time to either form a group without those silly skills or find one that is forming. Let's face it the one truth is that most people are IMPATIENT, don't want to wait, want to play NOW right NOW no WAITING, so, those types of people will do whatever it takes to get in a group NOW. So, it's not a REQUIREMENT, it's a CHOICE based on PATIENCE. The only way a SKILL/BUILD would be a REQUIREMENT would be that the mission npc wouldn't let you enter it unless you had those skils or build. Dragon arena is a REQUIRED build...most of the other areas in the rest of the game are not. There are exceptions where some missions REQUIRE a certain HERO, but, not a skill or a build on your bar.

I didn't officially work for Arena Net. I was a tester for Guild Wars 2 for a brief period of time, but quit. Guild Wars 2 is very similar to another mmorpg that shall not be named, and is heavily grind based. Not to mention I hate how much Guild Wars 2 rewards Guild Wars titles.

Which is why I know so much about Guild Wars 2, and the second I post anything about it, it gets deleted. Arena Net is trying to keep Guild Wars 2 in the dark. Which is why this post will probably be deleted as well. Hopefully someone out there will read this...

Or you're violating the NDA...

Or you're lying and no posts were deleted...

They're not even close to Beta testing yet (I'm doubtful they're in Alpha testing yet), so nothing in the game should be taken seriously anyway. It'll change.

Definetly Grind wars, with build wars coming in a close second.

Meh.

Wrong about testers.

Arena Net has roughly 1000 testers, to test their current content.

Arena Net Beta is way off, Beta is done very close to the release of the game. I.E Age Of Conan just had their PvP weekend beta last weekend and is going to be released soon.

Alpha is done way in advance.

I've said to much!

<.< >.>

Toxage, you make me lol.

And even if one person says anything about GW2, it's not going to effect my judgement of it.

Wow, i think everyone should read this to get some idea of reality.
Most people cant understand how connected facts work becuase they either say/think "one thing is what that thing is" or "one thing is part of a whole" when what really happens is "one thing is what that thing is AND this thing is part of a whole".
All but the last statement you quoted are related to this topic.
Like when you say "Guild Wars is a RPG", and they directly connect it to "therefore it needs grind". The first thing i said IS part of a whole, but not necessarily connected to the second thing. Both are individual facts linked to other individual facts but not necessarily to themselves (although we musnt belive they will never be associated).
The same thing happens to these sentences: "the grind in Guild Wars is fun" and "other games have much more grind" / "grind is optional" and "you can complete the storyline without pve skills".
Reading them separetedly will make you see how they arent really connected. (seriously, read it, they will make sence, but not connected)
Enough of philosophy for tonight.

Now to counter and defeat your last sentence:
Grind is not fun. (first fact)
GuildWars was not made to support grind. (second fact)
Grind + GuildWars is not fun. (third fact)

3x1

Oh really.... how curious, you see, i know someone who has been part of the beta test.
Can you please tell us MORE? Oh yea, tell us about their new game engine, how does it feel like playing it? Did they changed it from the original game? What did they changed?
1000 players? Wow, that way more than iv heard, i think you are exagerating a little, dont we agree?

I don't know specifically what they changed in their game engine.

But playing it feels more immersive, you can run, jump, climb, swim, parry, block with shield, numerous professions, and more customization (They added the majority of my customization suggestions WOOT!)

Graphics are pretty good, but still in development.

Nope, I don't agree. You don't know anything; you don't sound like a tester

Way to give us information that all of us already know. You really need to stop pretending like your someone, and realize that no body gives a rat's ass who you are, or what you've done.

Toxage, even if you were a tester, you're not supposed to say anything about the game.

Nor do your findings mean anything because it's your opinion and views and the game is not out for another 2 years.

I know posts of yours are deleted. By a certain person who I read about on a certain talkpage on a certain wiki. And I give him or her all my blessings because you can't say these things. Even if they are true, you are not allowed to.

Toxage, you go from WoW lover to beta GW2 tester to....what? You say in one post you'd never work for Anet....oh, excuse me, you said before you did....but wait, it wasn't in an official capacity, just as a beta tester....for a game that isn't even in beta yet....

BTW, I can't be living under a rock. You and your ego take up all the room.

Narcissia is absolutely correct. In the mainstream MMOs grinding isn't an option. Grind or die, and while you're at it pay 15$ a month. At least in Guild Wars it's mostly pointless, and those that rely on PvE skills either don't care what anyone thinks, or are having a hard time without them. If you don't like titles and don't want to grind them, then DON'T! The only title that's actually forced on you is the first rank of Kurzick/Luxon and that takes like what? 20-30 minutes to do all the faction quests?

And don't bring Lightbringer into this, many people complain the game is too easy, yet they whine that things like Lightbringer are necessary to do DoA and the such. People are just looking to whine. Plain and simple. Pay them no attention, lest they drown us all in their tears.

I never said i was a tester, you are telling us that.
But hey, didint you signed that "silence" contract like everybody else?


Ok enough child play.
If we read your posts we can see how you are lying and it sounds ridiculous how you are really trying to prove people you know stuff you obviously dont know.
We can also notice that you have a flaccid ego, because your suggestions were not introduced into the game and you are supressing your frustration by saying that they were. BUT ALSO you said about 1 hour ago that GW sucks because your ideas werent implemented. (the first symptom of a lie is controversion)
Therefore you are trying to fool everyone to also fool yourself that you are important.
And what frustrates you even more is that the game doesnt correspond your expectatives and you are not happy with it, but you dont want to accept it, therefore you lie because you dont want face the truth.
You are either a child that barely learned to lie, or teenager facing the storm of hormones or a needing adult.
Either they way you have problems and this is nor the place channalize your problems nor where you will work it out.
(we can go on and on with this and it will only get worse)

By this i politely invite you to stop saying absurds and braking the focus of the conversation, before one of us talk to the admins to delete the unrelated posts.

BACK TO THE TOPIC.

I would really like that the devs would tell us how the rewards are going to work, we dont need to know IT ALL, just how are the game's rules! =]

If you can earn 100,000 faction in 20-30 minutes, please let us in on the secret!

Toxage is like the most obvious troll ever.

Makes me giggle when you guys get all worked up over him.

You know what ANet needs to do? Two ideas:

- Determine what they plan to do with GW2 and announce plans here in GW1 to get us, without telling us, prepared for what can be expected in the near future. With the idea of PvP changes with little or no effect in PvE... it's a start.

- Know a good selection of die hard PvE only people and PvP only people. Knowing how both sides work and act in two different modes can give ideas on how to handle situations if one side complains. Know your community, ANet. Tell us what you think we would like, get our opinions, and then offer up something else. Assumptions FTL.

To my own, I enjoy listening to what people have to say.

Hey Toxage you ever notice how all of a sudden everyone becomes a psychiatrist, doctor or lawyer at this site? lol

Most games have a grind factor, to either very minor (Like achievements on 360) or major (kill X creatures, most MMO's.)

It's just part of the game, deal with it.

Why I don't trust Toxage: Clicky.

That aside...

Well, at least you're admitting that there are a lot of annoying people.

I can't really join any "pugs" before those times because I usually have to go to school early in the morning.

I don't think they add it "because most people like it", but rather that grind isn't "required" in any traditional sense. You don't have to be R5 Norn to continue the story, you don't have to kill 500 monsters to be able to move onto the next area.

The grind in the game doesn't exist because "most people like it", but because it's entirely optional (unless, you know, you want to pug DoA, but that's a different problem altogether).

"Optional grind" I don't really have much of a problem with, just as long as it doesn't have much of an in-game effect.

Right, and that wait can be from two hours to two days, while the "recommended" build can get in there, join, and be in the area within a couple minutes.

And the "impatient" builds are the ones that are easy to use and easy to set up, which is why Ursanway is so popular.



Holy crap, you got banned D:

You are making a liar out of my Prophecies box. I see skill>time there.

And perhaps you don't know/remember, that GW was NEVER supposed to be about grind. That's why a lot of people bought it. And grind is in every MMO right now, but guess what? IT'S NOT SO GODDAMN BORING THERE -.- In GW we have either:

PvE Grind, which is usually 5-8 players in wurms, gaining SS/LB titles over and over in same place, same way and doing same quest
PvE Grind, you roll 5 ursans and 3 healers, do a quest/DoA/explorable zone, go to city, rinse and repeat
PvP Grind on HA, where you play till you die (lol) FOR HOURS, not to be better, but to get into better games.

There were games before xbrick and MMOs. Many, very many of them didn't have grind. Your "grind is part of the game" is a pathetic lie.

Hey, I'm going to play Fallout 2 with its restoration pack, mind pointing the grind in it?

Haaayyyy I like my SS/LB wurm grinds

Also, send me Fallout 2 and I'll point out the grind.

Hell, killing X amount of Locusts in Gears of War is practiclly a grind. Kill untill a door opens.

poll please for a) guild wars b) grind wars c) my thumb is the best thumb in the world

Unfortunately, this optional grind has been the only content that has been added in a very long time....

So yes, it may be optional. But if you choose to skip it, well, then the game is exactly where it was before the titles were added: 2 years with not a single shred of new content.

Granted, there were chapters, but isn't that just 20 hours of content each? And titles add 50 - 5000 hours each.

In other words, the skill>time crowd got almost nothing, and everything else has catered to the crowd that GW was never intended for.

And no, I've played some other MMOs, GW has one of the worst possible grinds in existence. FFF or HA, for example. No other MMORPG ever found a crowd that would go through such painful experience to get - absolutely nothing. At least in other games of the type grinding for 3 years made you a demi-god, and gave your account value in thousands of dollars. Here, grinding for 3 years, and you're only 1 more year away from r15. And you get an emote. In EvE, playing for 2 years means you're baaaad. Even if you do nothing.

Or FFF. Some 500 hours of pure botting. And you get... well, nothing, since those PvE skills are redundant due to Ursan. 500 hours in WoW gets you highest tier epics these days, and time to roll a second character.

And that's the fundamental problem. Since GW doesn't even remotely support grind of any kind (even farming was incredibly problematic), any attempt to add it resulted in broken concepts.

If I spend 500 hours on something, I *want* an "I Win[E] (Shout)". So does everyone else. And some pitiful HoM marketing trick isn't it.

But hey, let's not worry about it - since the grind is optional, the 9 rings game is completely deserted. Who cares about some pitiful Lucky title, right. Nobody in their right mind would spend entire weekend logged in AFK, grinding it (judging by the number of districts vs. holiday events, 50% of active GW population is there, if not more).

Lack of content??? For an RPG it has plenty: four different stories to tackle, elite missions, and with GW:EN a large series of multi-leveled (but a bit repetitive) dungeons. I'd say it roughly has more content than most RPGs,

As an MMO, yes it is lacking quite a bit. But Guild Wars has never really been tailored as one. This mentality is what I believe to be one of the largest problems risen from the GW playerbase.

I'm just so confused why people demand so much out of ANet. I never saw people bashing Bioware for not releasing more Knights of the Old Republic content, or damning Final Fantasy for not having more end-game choices. Guild Wars is just an RPG that wants you to play through it's stories and create a character, not to keep you playing hours-on-end.

Why do people want to be essentially "addicted" to Guild Wars?