Serious Suggestion - Dual Wielding! - Please Read

04.18.05 - Yes, I have chosen to touch this topic. I was rather upset to see the theatrical trailer feature a striking dual-wielding female warrior, but was unable to do so ingame. There is also a wallpaper of her included with the preorder with her holding two swords. I CALL FALSE ADVERTISING!11 This also upset my friend, who can effectively dual-wield sabers in real life. [other objects he can manipulate in this manner include pool noodles, pillows, and spatulas]

I warn you, this is a serious topic on how Dual-Wielding can be implemented in the [hopefully] upcoming expansion.

In the expansions, ANet has hinted in the release of new... things. They described it like Magic: the Gathering - the new stuff won't be required to play, but will allow a lot more diversity in gameplay. So I came up with this - for each class, among other things, release a new primary attribute. It'd be like introducing a new thing in magic, like cycling or kickers. An example for Mesmers would be Persistancy, an attribute that passively increases the duration of hexes. Another is Concentration for Elementalists, which would create a small percentage of ignoring interruption per point. See where I'm headed?

I propose Dual Wielding as the new primary attribute for Warriors [from now on, Dual-Wielding will be abbreviated as DWing]. This would be very difficult not to implement, but to balance. Adrenaline would be achieved at a much higher rate, and two weapons would outdamage a hammer anyday. So how would we do this? I have come up with two ways, both of which deal with what benefit points in this attribute would provide.
I withdrew the New Primary attribute suggestion a little later. See below for details.

1] Make it so you cannot DW until you have at least one point in this attribute. Then, setting the default miss chance of your off-hand at 95%, have each point reduce this miss chance by 5%.
2] Make specific off-hand weapons. Each one should do around 40% damage compared to a standard one-handed weapon and come with an attribute point requirement, like many weapons past Pretty Ascalon. To balance the adrenaline issue, set the adrenaline generation to a default 0%, then have each point in this attribute generate 5% of the adrenaline a normal hit would.

Both of the above suggestions cover the damage and adrenaline problem. It justifies the extra damage and adrenaline by the fact that you are forgoing whatever your off-hand is carrying. However, there are quite a few uncovered issues, some of which are
-the poor hammer. Hammers could possibly become obselete, as DWing would provide both a higher DPS and adrenaline recharge. This problem could be solved simply by having Hammer Master increase both damage range and swing speed.
-the stacking of attributes. Imagine the horrors of Axe Mastery applying to both axes. A solution is to create a weapon class specifically for Off-Hand weapons or just have damage range increases from other attributes apply only to the primary hand.
-other attack skills. Although this isn't too large a problem, having Galrath Strike occuring with your off-hand weapon might be a problem. Having non-DW attack skills apply only to the primary hand should solve this.
-being able to use both Axe and Sword skills. Imagine the possibilities... anyway, this could be prevented by making off-hand weapons a class of their own.
-tough choices. The percentages above have to adjusted to the point that choosing to DW is not automatic, but requires weighing the benefits of other off-hand items. Another way you could balance this is make current off-hand items on par with DWing.

Skills for this attribute would be a joy to make, for those who actually know how to spar with weapons to your average comic/manga fan.
For 1], a skill could be Twin Blades, an adrenaline-based skill that allows you to swing simultaneously with both weapons on your next attack, give the off-hand weapon the normal miss chance, and do x extra damage [to balance for those who have poured points into the attribute].
For 2], a skill could be Follow-Through, an attack skill for your off-hand, where, if both your last primary attack and this attack hit, provides 1-4 adrenaline.
However, stances can also rise from this. One could be Duelist's Stance, an elite stance that provides a 75% dodge chance for x seconds at the cost of your off-hand attack. Another could be Jester's Dance, a stance in which all of your primary attacks will miss, but your off-hand does double damage for x seconds.

In conclusion, I believe that Dual-Wielding could be a very interesting addition to a future expansion of Guild Wars. It would provides a whole new dimension to combat as well a new motivation to be a Warrior primary.

Any constructive criticism is welcomed.

04.19.05 - The last several people who posted didn't read the entire thread before posting and based all their stuff on just this post [will I will admitted is pretty flawed]. To remediate this, I have Copy/Pasted my revised suggestion here to save time.

I take back my initial suggestion and now believe that dual-wielding should not be a primary attribute. I have thought about it and come up with two revised suggestions.

3] This follows the path of fantasy dual-wielding, with weapons of identical size or type.
You may equip any two one-handed weapons of the same type [ie axe, sword, or anything released in future expansions]. Both suffer from an initial 54% decreased attack speed, which is reduced by 4% for each point in the attribute. The amount of adrenaline you gain per hit is reduced by the same amount your attack speed is.
This would mean that, with one point in DW, your attack speed would remain the same [without any, DWing would actually be a disadvantage]. As you put points, you would gain increased DPS and adrenaline gain as compared to just one weapon.
Skills for this build would pick up on the two weapons. Examples include [some revised]:
-Dervish: Elite, Stance; 10e, 2cast, 30cd; For 5-15sec, your attacks gain 50% more adrenaline. You must be wielding two weapons to cast this skill.
-Dual Swing: Attack Skill; 8adrenaline; Attack with both weapons. Both do 1-10 more damage.
-Whirlwind Attack [D&D, anyone?]: Attack Skill; 5e, 12cd; Lose all adrenaline. Your next two attacks will hit all adjacent targets. Each attack suffers a 33% miss chance.
This would require the implementation of an adrenaline system that keeps tracks of fractions/decimals/percentages, but that isn't too difficult. Other than that, I think I covered everything.

4] This follows the path of real combat with the use of off-hand weapons. The attribute would probably not be named DW, but something along the lines of Off-Hand Skill [I know, that was lame]. A new class of weapons called Off-Hand Weapons would be created. This would consist of daggers, gauches, hatchets, and other small weapons. Anyone could arm an off-hand weapon instead of a focus or shield. Hits with the off-hand would not generate adrenaline.
Each point in Off-Hand Skill would would minutely increase maximum damage and passively add a small percentage [maybe 1%-3%] to get a critical hit with the off-hand weapon.
Skills would revolve around the elusive nature of the off-hand weapon. Examples include [some revised]:
-Duelist's Stance: Stance; 10e, 1cast, 45cd; For 3-15sec, you would gain 50% dodge but cannot make attacks with your off-hand.
-Follow Through: Elite, Attack Skill, applies to your next off-hand attack; 5e, 12cd; If this attack hits, gain 1-5 adrenaline.
-Deceitful Blade: Attack Skill; 9ad;Your next primary-hand attack misses. The following off-hand attack automatically crits and deals an extra 1-10 damage on top of that.
This would require almost no change to the current system other than the introduction of the off-hand weapons themselves.

Please post with criticism.

06.23.05 - I could see how a Rogue/Assassin class could work with two types of DWing - the traditional dagger/rapier [ie Artemis Entreri] or two daggers [ie the poor bloke who tries fighting Drizzt in Waterdeep]. [you wanted Drizzt fanboyism, Talesin?]
Both of the systems I am proposing can be traced back to 3], as I believe that introducing weapons that allow a faster attack speed than swords/axes will imbalance the game when it comes to skills like Mark of Pain, Illusionary Weaponry, etc. I may post another system later that ignores this personal qualm, but I'll do these first.

5] This is a suggestion for DWing for a new profession using both a primary and off-hand weapons.
Create two new weapons, both with a swingrate of of three seconds. That way, with two such weapons, the swingrate ends up 1.5 seconds, which is faster than a hammer but slower than a sword/axe.
One new weapon would be the rapier. Alternative names for items in the game could be foil, epee, saber, etc. With it's slower attack speed, I suggest it's damage be 17-29. This would provide for a good balance between sword/axe and hammer damage [since this is not the warrior class, it's damage will be less], but will allow for sizable crits. In all other respects, it should be treated like any normal melee weapon, with similar upgrades.
The other new weapon would be off-hand daggers. Alternative names for items in the game could be parrying dagger, main gauche, sword-breaker, etc. Given the same attack speed, it would do significantly less damage than the other, doing only 11-17 damage. However, this handy little item would provide an energy and shield armor bonus of up to +7 each.* To be perfectly honest, I don't know how upgrades could be made for this weapon; it could be the same as the current weapons or completely new unique to its support status.
The main attribute for these weapons could be called Swashbuckling, and would cover requirements and crits for both weapons. You would not get the full energy and shield AL bonus, along with weapon damage, if you did not meet the attribute req.

6] This is a suggestion for DWing on a new profession using two weapons of equal size.
Create a new weapon. Each would have a swingrate of 2.5 seconds. That way, with two such weapons, the swingrate ends up 1.25 seconds, which is slightly faster than a sword/axe [1.33 seconds].
To be honest, I can't imagine an assassin/rogue using two full-sized weapons, so I believe the new weapon would be a dagger. Alternative names for items in the game could be sword-breaker, kris blade, dagger [ ], kukri, punching daggers [dang, I forgot what these were called], etc. They would have a bast damage of 11-19 and each also provide an energy bonus of up to +5 and a shield armor bonus of +7. Upgrades would be normal, but may include a new upgrade to up the energy provided by 1-3e. If you haven't caught on yet, you would be able to wield one in each hand.
I'm not quite sure what you could name the attribute, but it would cover both requirements and crits. You would not get the full energy bonus or shield AL bonuses, along with weapon damage, unless you meet the attribute req.

An issue that must be addressed with both suggestions is their use with current weapons. Using either with a sword/axe would create a very fast swingrate, as the latter would strike about twice in the span of one of the off-hand's attacks. Aside from graphics issues of two weapons swinging at different rates, this could be remedied by simply doubling the swing speed of the said sword/axe when one of the new off-hand weapons I suggested.

I'd also like to set out my definition of constructive criticism, as the mere concept seems to be lost on a couple recent posters.
I consider constructive criticism to be suggestions, commentary, and notice of flaws regarding my suggestions that could help me come up with a better system. This does not include "0^^g |=@/|/|30\/111" or "I'm sorry, but your suggestion sucks" unless it includes reasons as to why.
Although general suggestions and comments still fine, some specifics I would like to hear are the names for the weapons mentioned and a name for the attributes. I'd also be very glad if someone could calculate the swingrate of using a sword [1.33s] and each of the suggestions [3s for 5] and 2.5s for 6]].

I'll comment on what everyone else has posted later, as I am guilty of not yet reading the older posts [it's very old, probably the oldest active one in Sardelac].

*Historically speaking, the choice of whether to use the main or off-hand weapon for defense was a personal preference, but often times the other way around. The term "parrying dagger" is a tribute to its deceptive nature, as it was normally the longer blade used to parry and maneuver the opponent's and the dagger that delivered the fatal blow.

06.25.05
7] Make two new off-hand weapons. Both are linked to a new attribute called Ambidexterity, and the higher end ones will require it. Both of these weapons suffer a 75% miss chance, which is decreased by 3% per point in the attribute.
One of these new weapons will require Strength as well. These weapons do about 50%-75% damage as compared to a normal one-handed weapon [these numbers are subject to balance].
The other weapon would require Tactics. These weapons would provide a block rate of 4%-20%. To balance this, points in Tactics now inherently reduce block/miss rates by x% per point.
I don't know how I would balance the adrenaline issue with this one.
~inspired by Sgt Allen
8] Create a new class of off-hand items linked to Strength. This item simply provides a damage bonus to the primary hand of %5-20%.
To satisfy the die-hard DWing fans, there will probably be a changed animation for those who are using this item. That, and/or they can have two number pop up when you attack - the normal damage of the primary weapon and the damage the off-hand weapon added.
This would solve the adrenaline problem by simply not generating it. Hammers will probably need a small speed-buff.
~inspired by MasterDinadan

Aye laddie, I whole-heartedly agree. But dont for get to mention the traditional dagger and rapier way of doing things... the dagger doesn't get in the way like a longer blade (or other large instrument of pain) would, thus there wouldn't be any loss in chance to hit.

if it helps, I have heard that there ought to be an expansion every 6 months or so...and that new classes will most certainly be in there.

kinda makes sense that they focus on a subset of their planned classes to work out how balance works in their game first...

Actually, adding attributes to currently existing classes for the next chapters does not make sense. If they do as you suggest, with say, the Mesmer class, with an attribute that increases the length of hexes, then suddenly, that makes the standard Domination Mesmer much more effective, on an energy-usage scale. It would be felt that to be competetive in PvP (the slide-rule squad would jump on this, I think) you would have to buy the newest chapter, and A-net has so far said that they want to avoid that.

So I suspect no new attributes for current classes unless they will not be seen as vital. This DWing, for instance, is an example of such an item. The point, as you say, is not to allow the DWing to become overpowered, and while your concern for the poor Hammer Warriors is nice, they are for the most part regarded as obsolete anyway, from what I have seen.

I like the system you have here for implementing it, though of course, the numbers would probably have to tweaked somewhat. But I'd let the afore-mentioned slide rule squad get to that, and just say that it looks a decent method to me on first perusal, of implementing something that a lot of people have wanted.

Here's a link to my discussion about Dual Wielding

Click Here

I agree, it should be the Warrior's primary attribute. Do away with Strength, get DW.

dual weapon will sure make a good weapon, with faster swining, double damage, and cool looking, but I also have some objections..

with u able to held 2 weapons/sword, i think the max amount of that dual weapon should be silently lower than 1 handed sword, say max for axe is 22, dual will be say 18, but u are still dealing 36 damage if it hits. also dual weapon welder should have a bit less defence, as it is very hard to defend themselfs. and lastly i think dual weapon should be considered as 1 weapons, as in made into one, so u don't have double weapon upgrades. as in 2 zealous <blab blab> of defence.

Or allow you to use two weapons, but only the one on the primary hand gives bonuses. Having dual-weilded weapons as one is something I'm not particularly fond of...

I think that with two weapons, you should attack only slightly faster, and extend DW to only swords. Having a second weapon means you don't have a shield, which is the defense penalty. However, adding some skills that make use of an off-handed weapon would be nice to balance some of this...

Physics.

-One weapon thrusted forward with a shield in front will do more damage because of leverage than 1 weapon thrusted forward with the other held back. Both thrusted forward would be a devastating hit but I would think that could be a very easily interrupted elite skill that lowers armour considerably or allows the other player to do double damage and maybe a 10% chance it stuns the warrior if the warrior is hit during the attack, and no 5 second cooldown either.

-I tend to think that to use any weapons like this there should be a 20% damage per weapon penalty because of physical balance issues. However too if the weapons are identical there should be an accuracy bonus becuase one can be balancing to the other even if a less powerful attack for lack of leverage in the single weapon being used.

-The secondary weapon should be subject to being hit too because it is not moving like the primary (right hand) weapon and thus being rendered useless for say 5 seconds.

-The treatment of them as one weapon for zealous, bleeding, or poison bonuses is good. I tend to think only the bonuses from the primary weapon should be considered so the warrior has to carefully consider their dual weapons.

-Lastly strength to me remains the attribute because the strength to weild 2 sword such as are in guild wars, would require a great deal of strength. No need for a new attribute. Some level 3 trying to dual wield will learn quickly it's not a good idea yet, sure they can do it but their accuracy is down considerably because they don't have the strength to hold both weapons.

Just some thoughts for consideration.

I agree that dual-wielding should be implimented at some point. However, changing the Warrior's primary attribute would probably be a bad choice. What would happen to existing Warrior Characters? Don't forget, one of the great things about GW is that if/when you realize you made a mistake you don't have to start from scratch to fix your mistake. I know many people want DWing, but making a brand new Primary Attribute is something that could really throw people for a loop.

and really, the warrior class really doesn't seem suited for it in my mind...just look at the models, they are solid brawn...two handed weapons require a heck of a lot of strength to move that much steel around. A sword and board require a lot of strength as well to carry a dang heavy shield around and still swing a heavy sword around.

wielding two weapons and not getting stuck like a pig takes dexterity over sheer strength and we don't have those classes and models yet...which is why I say it will be on a new character that comes in an expansion.

You know that does make more sense, some agility character that probably can't wield warrior class weapons. Strength is important as an attribute if it were a warrior but they sure couldn't move them very quickly. Great call Perendengue!

Uthar: I made up the Elementalist and Mesmer primary attributes in order to build up to my point. Reading it, it does seem rather serious.
Ander Deathblade: I don't see too much of a connection between DWing and Strength. Most people are happy with the Strength attribute as it is.
Unrealer: Solid point on how two weapons should do less. I think I could use this...
Sin: You've made some good points on the nature of dual-wielding.
perendengue: Just because someone is strong does not mean he is not finesseful.

I take back my initial suggestion and now believe that dual-wielding should not be a primary attribute. I have thought about it and come up with two revised suggestions.

3] This follows the path of fantasy dual-wielding, with weapons of identical size or type.
You may equip any two one-handed weapons of the same type [ie axe, sword, or anything released in future expansions]. Both suffer from an initial 54% decreased attack speed, which is reduced by 4% for each point in the attribute. The amount of adrenaline you gain per hit is reduced by the same amount your attack speed is.
This would mean that, with one point in DW, your attack speed would remain the same [without any, DWing would actually be a disadvantage]. As you put points, you would gain increased DPS and adrenaline gain as compared to just one weapon.
Skills for this build would pick up on the two weapons. Examples include [some revised]:
-Dervish: Elite, Stance; 10e, 2cast, 30cd; For 5-15sec, your attacks gain 50% more adrenaline. You must be wielding two weapons to cast this skill.
-Dual Swing: Attack Skill; 8adrenaline; Attack with both weapons. Both do 1-10 more damage.
-Whirlwind Attack [D&D, anyone?]: Attack Skill; 5e, 12cd; Lose all adrenaline. Your next two attacks will hit all adjacent targets. Each attack suffers a 33% miss chance.
This would require the implementation of an adrenaline system that keeps tracks of fractions/decimals/percentages, but that isn't too difficult. Other than that, I think I covered everything.

4] This follows the path of real combat with the use of off-hand weapons. The attribute would probably not be named DW, but something along the lines of Off-Hand Skill [I know, that was lame]. A new class of weapons called Off-Hand Weapons would be created. This would consist of daggers, gauches, hatchets, and other small weapons. Anyone could arm an off-hand weapon instead of a focus or shield. Hits with the off-hand would not generate adrenaline.
Each point in Off-Hand Skill would would minutely increase maximum damage and passively add a small percentage [maybe 1%-3%] to get a critical hit with the off-hand weapon.
Skills would revolve around the elusive nature of the off-hand weapon. Examples include [some revised]:
-Duelist's Stance: Stance; 10e, 1cast, 45cd; For 3-15sec, you would gain 50% dodge but cannot make attacks with your off-hand.
-Follow Through: Elite, Attack Skill, applies to your next off-hand attack; 5e, 12cd; If this attack hits, gain 1-5 adrenaline.
-Deceitful Blade: Attack Skill; 9ad;Your next primary-hand attack misses. The following off-hand attack automatically crits and deals an extra 1-10 damage on top of that.
This would require almost no change to the current system other than the introduction of the off-hand weapons themselves.

Please post with criticism.

Please post with criticism.[/QUOTE]
aside from that elf how many warriors in history have been stupid enough to try to dual weild

balance this

every ranger that shoots an arrow gets a critical hit because of no shield to block

Hmm... I have no clue what you are talking about, but I'll try my best to answer your question with as much respect as you gave me.

The first part about the elf, I'm assuming, is refering to the drow of the Forgotten Realms, also known as Faerun, or maybe even specifically Drizzt Do'Urden, the main protagonist of a majority of books by R.A. Salvatore, a well-know fantasy writer and co-creator of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game. Realize that, yes, it is a fantasy setting, but could be possible with mithril weapons.

Dual wielding is very difficult. If you know someone in real life who can, you'd understand that it is possible. Yes, the fact that my friend uses light, dry fencing sabers may diminish this accomplishment, but I have yet to meet anyone who does it better. I would enjoy watching you spar him.

Balance what, that little bow scenario you brought up? Yes, being hit in real life by an arrow probably should constitute as a critical hit. However, this is not real life, but a game. In real life, a .50AE IMI Desert Eagle would probably blow off a limb along and probably the wrist of anyone who plays CS. I do not live for lightsabers or blaster pistols, although I know there is a small percentage of the population who do [some of which probably hang out on forums like this]. The only thing I can think of that looks like a dragon is probably that skeleton in the LaBrea Tar Pits museum, and the one place I can find real magic is at the state fair. >_> What the hell is your point?

Guild Wars is a game that, like all others, allow us to leave the real world behind and play in another where anything is possible. Sure, dual-wielding may not be realistic, but neither is magic, the female Elementalist's attire, or Bone Fiends. Bite me for trying to balance an idea that many on this forum would like to see implemented.

Please post with criticism. Make it constructive, polite, and/or sane.
Refrain from being rude, and please give me the same amount of respect I gave you.

I wouldn't mind seeing dual wielding implemented at some point, but I'd prefer that it be kept simple. The more complicated you make it, the more difficult it is to balance. The more difficult it is to balance, the less likely it is that it'll ever find a place in the game. Here's my version:

No DW attribute. Create a warrior skill which, when equipped to your skill belt, allows you to wield a weapon in your left hand. There would be specific types of small weapons meant for off-hand use, tied to each of the weapon types except hammers (daggers for swords, small hand-axes for axes, etc.). These would do less damage than typical weapons of their type but, while wielding them, each hit the player scores actually lands twice: Once for their main weapon, and once with their off-hand. Essentially, you trade the use of a shield or focus for the ability to do additional damage in combat. Plus, if you had an off-hand weapon with a certain effect (poison, fire, energy drain, etc.) attached to it, you'd be able to cause place two effects on an enemy at the same time: One with your main and one with your off-hand.

Perhaps it could also be possible to allow the player to use skills for both weapon types. If, for example, they're wielding an axe in their main hand and a dagger in their off-hand, they'd be able to use both axe and sword skills but, when doing so, only the weapon matching the skill would hit.

Another fun mechanic (and I have no idea how this would balance out, I'm just throwing it out there for consideration) might be to allow the player two wield two of the smaller weapons and grant them an attack speed bonus when doing so.

It's possible that all of this is either horribly useless or horribly overpowered, so feel free to disect and trim it as necessary, but I think making DW a skill rather than an attribute is really the way to go. I think adding new attributes or modifying existing ones needs to be done with great care, or things could get really messy.

well...people can be strong and still have finesse.

but I have a hard time in real life, or fantasy life for that matter, seeing a huge body builder have the raw finesse to be able to effectively dual wield....but aside from that.

Here is my impression on how dual wield will be balanced in GW, and I'll start with the basic balance mantra.

* the more damage you can do the faster you should be able to be taken down

if dual wielding weapons significantly increases the damage output, then the time your character will be to alive needs to go down, however...that is just in the terms of one on one. If DW got large damage bonuses but were a bit on the frail side then you would likely see groups running around with monks and DW'ers...whatever DW does it can not make any existing class obsolete.

there will always we team builds that are maximized for their effectiveness...but DW will have to fit into the existing framework without making a warrior worthless.

that is why most games I have seen balance DW by uping damage slightly but sacrificing defense a fair amount...and the rational for that is simple, it is harder to protect your meat when both of your hands are occupied putting metal in other peoples flesh.

one thing I would be interested in seeing in GW would be more positional style effects and DW might be very interesting in this respect. one on one DW's might be able to hold their own against most things, but pile on more opponents and their defense ought to scale down a lot faster then a warrior with a shield that can keep people in their front 180 arch.

I know you prolley want someone to go through your numbers and comment...but frankly I don't know enough of the numbers playing on existing balance to fairly comment...you mention 33% miss rate but how does that mesh with existing similar rates...I don't know.

I am inclined to think if you want to make a serious exercise of this you ought to not focus strictly on skills for pariticular aspects of DW. Instead explain the role of a DWer in terms of a team including what/who the counter would be. For balance a goal is to have every class and build have effective counters that are in and of themselves powerful and interesting.

I really don't think you can think of DW as a 'new' ability or spec line for warriors...that class has been balanced and is what it is, ANet would be crazy to significantly change that class after release as that would alienate existing players and start the nerf cries. A new class along the lines of some kinda light warrior/rogue is my guess. Lower armor, tricks and/or traps line similar to rangers with dual wielding at the core of its weapon combat focus.

anyway, I applaud your attempts to throw some numbers and skills together...I just seriously question to idea of modifying an existing class to support it...cheers

I think dual wielding should go to an expansion class. So far we have only western styles of combat and dual wielding in western combat was limited to rapier/maingauche and the Florentine style, which was uncommon to say the least. As for the game mechanics aspect, I don't really want to touch that - if it is a new class it can either be an attribute or not. I suspect the way I'd implement it would mirror the warrior, with some skill like tactics serving as the requirement for the second hand weapon, so that weapons simply require (skillname) at some level, just as shields do. This would follow the game theme of allowing the more powerful weapons based on higher attributes in the weapon. It would also allow a warrior/newclass combo to use a sword/axe in one hand and an off hand weapon in the other by investing the points appropriately, or to allow a mage to carry a sword breaker or main-gauche alongside a cane.

I am being much more polite than you were earlier with me.

I dont like this idea.Warriors I think are already overpowered and doubling the damage would make it even worse.I think that dual weilding is stupid

in other games where there's dual wield it's often like this:

- Higher attack power, max atk x2 compared to single wield.
- lower ASPD, but 2 hits.
- second hit often does less damage than the first, because in physics the second blow (if swinging your blades vertically) would be slowed down.
- less defense.

If they'd put it in here, maybe it would be nice.. for a new profession, like some kind of assassin class, with dual dagger/katar wield or something.

as for adding a new attribute.. I think it's not very handy, you've already got a lot to choose from and you need to spend your points wisely if you add more it might get too messy.

I believe that Slade asked people to be polite and to add constructive criticism; you ignored the former, and did not do the latter.

First off, Warriors are only overpowered if you let them be overpowered; if you play your profession right, you could easily find ways to negate the Warrior's raw power and even deal some damage back. Secondly, although I don't necessarily agree with the idea of duel wielding as something to add to the game, Slade has made a good arguement and provided some insight into this thought process, which has been sound thus far. If a way can be found to correctly balance the Dual Wield, then more power to you. I would add any suggestions/criticism if I had a strong opinion one way or the other, but I don't. So keep the ideas coming, and we'll see how things turn out.

Oh, and I would think that an idea such as this would best be held off for a couple of expansions down the road to let people who did not participate in the BWE get a chance to become accustomed with the game before we change the mechanics of the game on them. That's my two cents.

uh i would have to majorly disagree with this. strength is far greater to warriors then dual weilding

dual weilding IMO is more of a dexterity type thing and should be a skill for the ranger's expertise, much like charm animal for beast mastery

you can always do it so long as you keep the skill on your skill bar

perendeque: I tried to create the DWing attribute so it would not be overpowered in respect to a Warrior's current set. I'll cover the the reason why I proposed it for the Warrior below.
Epinephrine: I apologize for that. As you saw, I read your first response, opened a new window for my reply, and posted for every one of yours. At the very end, when I saw that your problem was actually difficulty of targeting with a ranged weapon out instead of creating a whole new set of weapons for non-warriors, I just left everything I typed up because I really didn't want to delete all that due to the effort involved. Again, I apologize for my misunderstanding and hope the animosity it created doesn't last long.
I will cover why I proposed DWing for Warriors below.
Mango Midget: The cool thing about Guild Wars is that every class has methods of countering others.
If you actually read my posts, you would realize that all of my proposals increase total DPS by 50% at the most.
Gerbill: The one problem with implementing the same system in Guild Wars is the issue of adrenaline. Even if you did less damage with your off-hand, attacking almost twice as often will give you much more adrenaline than a single weapon. The only way such a system could be balanced is if the other off-hand items got a might buff.
William of Orange: Thank you. Although I would like to see DW implemented soon, if at all, I do realize that it would be better to get an opinion from an audience larger than simply the beta testers.
Raumoheru: If you took the time to read my opening introduction carefully, you would know that I proposed DWing as an additional primary attribute, not a replacement. I tried to take this back in my second post, but I looked back only to see a rather ugly typo. It's been fixed now. Sorry if it confused you.

I proposed DWing specifically for Warriors. At first, I considered proposing it for a new character class, but after looking at the options, it made sense. The classes I was considering it for was for a Duelist or Assassin-type character. However, the Warrior already possesses skills for a Duelist, like the two Ripostes, Hamstring, and Final Thrust. An Assassin class character should rely on stealth, guile, and maybe poison to get his job done, not the DPS of DWing.

However, if a Rogue/Assassin/Thief class if ever made, I think that Suggestion 4] from my second post would be a great suggestion. The off-hand weapon should be given small damage when compared to a normal one-handed weapon [probably around 20%-40%]. However, the skills linked to it should provide it the utility of a Swiss Army Knife, just what a character like that would need.

Please continue with comments and criticism.

I am just curious what the other alternate primary attribute is that you are proposing for the other professions?

Under the heading of balance such would appear to be necessary or are we to give the warriors all the options?

I tend to agree with another poster that warriors have enough power and skills in their profession. There was a thread where someone had a warrior/monk build that can be used on that riverside mission I believe, the one with the mantle towers, well they had images of the warrior taking on 15 white mantle at once and beating them all. I've seen similar in videos by others using a warrior/monk.

Sure you might be thinking in the PVP mind in bringing this idea to be posted, however there is a rather apparent skill flexibility warriors have already that leaves the other professions behind. So it would appear that to add to the warrior profession some new options may not require additions to the other professions as a matter of consistency, however I care to think it would be necessary to assure the warrior profession isn't even further out classing the others in build flexibility. Maybe there are inherent limits to the flexibility of the other professions which is fine, yet I would hope those limits aren't exacerbated by adding another element of flexibility to warriors alone as that would appear to be an unreasonable and thus balance breaking exploitation.

Stated as thought so hope it helps in the bouncing this around.

duel wielding would be nice, it might upset the special balance of the warrior.. but i really want duel weilding, maybe even if they make a new char it would go perfectly.but duel wielding anyway would be great!

duel weilding should use the Tactics skill like shields do, or rename it Off-hand or something like that.
my $.02

Well, thanks for the apology, I think that smoothes it out for me

As for dual wielding, I am not sure that I see it as a warrior function. That's obviously simply opinion; I don't feel it fits the character is all. As for implementation, it definitely should be linked to something, but I can't see starting a new attribute if you were to give it to a warrior, and skills linking to it should thus make use of the attribute. An easy way around it is to simply make the off hand weapon worth a damage bonus to the main weapon. It would need animation changes, but could then be added across the board, with, as mentioned, links to Tactics. Consider this - Shields are a "warrior's" toold, in that they link to warrior attributes, but you can wear the low value ones as any class - likewise, have a few types of off hand weapon (Maingauche, sword breaker, dagger and so on) and they have varying abilities - none add armour, that's a shiled's job, but they are for example +1-4 damage and +5% blocking for a low level no requirement maingauche, while a higher level item might be either more substantial in one or the other of these abilities, or maybe both. The blocking rate for it could be multiplicative (so that when you have a 25% block rate from a maingauche and activate a sell like Aegis it gives a 62.5%; blocking 25% of the remaining 50%) and the damage simply tacked onto the attack with a new animation, in that manner it doesn't unbalance the adrenaline gain or subject itself to an additional subtraction from a shielding hands or the like - instead it simply ups the DPS at a cost of armour and/or energy.

I don't think the off hand weapon should come anywhere near doubling the damage rate, it in fact here would simply be adding some small amount of damage and a blocking rate, instead of a shield which provides no damage and a guaranteed reduction in damage. It's a gamble - it makes for higher damage and more variable protection. One could even imagine that a high damage off hand weapon with a good block rate might have an armour penalty with it, as you leave yourself a bit more open than you might otherwise, scoring more hits but risking taking more damage when you don't manage to parry it.

okay, ill admit i stopped reading most of the way thru this thread, heres what i suggest, for dual wielding...there SHOULD be an atribute needed to do it, 1 point to dual wield, and -70% dmg for the off hand instead of a chance to miss, each increasing point adds 5% to this, therefore 1 point=-70%, 2 points=-65%, etc etc, there would also be a form of sword defense, starts at 5%, increases by 5% for each additional point... this would allow rangers to be effective like they would vs someone without a shield, but would also help vs other melee because of the block, also the weapons should have a str req, because swinging a weapon with your off hand, isnt nearly as effective as your dominant hand, unless u practice... this is just my 2 cents, forgive me if i repeated anything already mentioned, as said above i did not read all of the thread

Aah, of course I want Dual Wielding. Not only because it looks cool, but because I've been playing the same Dual-Wielding character (in various incarnations) in PC and Pen & Paper games for almost 20 years. (Yes...before Salvatore.) So I would like to keep my character as close as possible to the image in my head.

I am wondering if the expansion will include other races besides humans, and what kind of attributes or skills would be applied to that. Perhaps DW could be a function of race. Just brainstorming here.

(BTW The DW threads are the only ones I've read so far. I'm sure there are some great threads on race that I have yet to get to. Suggestions?)

I think this is the best Idea so far. It would make everything so much more bloody fun to kill

I just wanted to add something about the realism discussion. I try not to use the term "realistic" for a fantasy setting/game. But is it "feasible" within the boundaries of the current setting/rules? I think dual wielding definately is, in one way or another.

Is it feasible to use magic in GW? Yes, it is. Is it realistic that you can use magic? Not as far as I know.

I think it would be a nice change just to create a "Dagger" type item that is only used on the off-hand.
The Dagger doesn't actually have it's own damage, but it has modifiers that make your attacks stronger... it's attack is sort of "combined" with the main weapon in your attack animations, but the damage is still just figured in as a single attack with the main weapon. Much how the sword animation often involves swinging many times at the enemy and only dealing damage once, the dual wield animation will have an animation of swinging both weapons but only deal damage with the main hand.
By adding a damage modifier to the dagger weapon, it makes it an offensive alternative to a shield. By giving up the defense given by a shield, the warrior gains an offensive advantage.

The problem I see is this could only be done by sword and axe warriors... and as it stands hammers aren't good enough. If any of the weapons need to be improved, it should be hammers.

The first time I saw the character creation screen I wondered why there is only one melee class, one ranger, and 4 casters. It seems like something is missing, and it might be why there are so many warrior primaries in game. I realize there are many ways to build a warrior, but in future expansions, I hope for a rogue (thief, assasin) class which focuses on quick melee, fast weapons like, katanas, daggers, maybe even throwing knives. Rogues would always be able to equip 2 weapons, but would have a large penalty in the offhand. For instance:

Rogue class attributes:
Speed (primary): Increases melee (and ranged?) attack speed, linked with skills that increase attack speed and make quick, precise one target attacks.
Off-Hand: Decreases off-hand penalty, linked with skills that require 2 weapons to be equipped.
Stealth: No inherent effect, linked with skills that allow a rogue to move quickly and/or unnoticed.
Dexterity: Increases chances to land all melee and ranged attacks and increases chances of evading attacks. Linked with powerful melee skills that would usually have a high chance of missing.

Heh, revived from the bottom depths of the forum. bjornmmcc you Necromancer you LOL.

J/k Anywho im an avid supporter of duelweilding of SOME kind being put in the game. I always play a duel weilding char when the choice is availiable. It usually isnt anything special but it looks dern cool, and is just fun to watch in general.

Haha. Funny link.

So is there a good thread on Race I can bring back from the land of the dead? 'Cause I'm not really finding a good discussion about that.

It wont replace strength- think of all those skills related to strength. Anet arent just going to delete them (what will warriors do when we run ? (sprint) )
I think the best idea on this thread is dual wielding as a primary attribute, and the miss factor etc.
This dual wield is,in my sight, needed. But, it should come with a new class, like another said, assasin type. I have also been thinking of dual wielding simular to you, but think of this.
What other attributes will the new class include ?

Warrior is the melee class, but also the defense class, he is the only one with shield capabilities, and shields are linked to tactics. Making Warrior a "DW" job kind of averts his ability to do well with a shield.

I made an entire forum on a class called Shinobi, which includes a Dual Wielding attribute, Wing Chung, which is basicly an art of close quarter combat with a vast arsinal of weapons, complimenting defensive moves with 2 weapons and fully useable with 2 of any single handed weapons. I personally think this is a better idea then averting the Warriors natural abilities (Shielding) to suit dual wielding.

The fact that the Warrior does better damage with a Sword or Axe along with a shield rather then having a 2 handed hammer with no shield pretty much speaks for itself, the Warrior shouldn't be using 2 swords or axes without special additions from another class, it would be too powerful. Just like having Necromancer and Mesmer together helps them stack curses with hexes, Warrior should have to rely on something from another class to attain Dual Wielding, because no matter how you "forsee" dual wielding, your basicly asking for them to do more damage, otherwise it wouldn't be justafiable to sacrifice your shield to use a second weapon. This prevents W/Mo from having Dual Wielding, or anything else except the particular other class that provides Dual Weilding.

If anything, I think that Tactics should provide abilities that allow Warriors to use special stunning or attack moves with thier shield. Warriors already have a poor selection for secondary classes because 4 of the other classes are casters, and many Ranger skills are Energy focused. New melee classes should be developed to give the Warrior Adrenaline skill to select from his secondary class, I think Shinobi is the Perfect class to add to cover an alternative melee combatant, as well as a path to attain dual wielding, as well as other skills which make using melee attacks more useful for even mage jobs (I.E. barehanded attacks and special hit and run attacks).

Dual Wielding would be great, I think it is unfair to put it on the Warrior though.

i think rangers should dual weild usally rangers are th ones that dual wield

That depends on the game actually, it varies widely.

Personally? I think dual wielding for warriors is a bad idea. It unbalances an already existing area of the game, which can be worse then adding a new class. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=9843 That is my concept of dual wielding (Scroll down and check Marauder). Warriors are fine as is, dual wielding for warriors could easily be overkill.