Izzy Interview - PvP vs PvE: ArenaNet on Guild Wars at BigDownload

http://news.bigdownload.com/2008/05/...on-guild-wars/

Guild Wars shook up the MMO scene with a radically different business plan, where game development would be funded with box sales instead of subscription fees. It also stood out as one of the best examples of PvP design, since players were allowed to create top level characters dedicated to competitive gameplay. The game was later followed by two campaigns that added new classes, new PvP modes and a slew of different skills. Factions introduced Faction Points and Alliance Battles, while Nightfall brought in computer controlled Heroes to assist in all areas of combat. Although certain aspects overlap between PvE and PvP game types, Guild Wars has a "separate but equal" way of dealing with the two. Competitors have dedicated arenas, away from the story based areas, where they can quickly jump right into a battle. As a result, strong communities have grown around both PvP and PvE gameplay, and fans eagerly await news about Guild Wars 2. We speak with game designer Isaiah Cartwright from ArenaNet, who specializes in PvP, skill balance and most other combat-related design to find out what it takes to maintain the balance between PvP and PvE gameplay. Read the interview after the jump.



What was the philosophy behind having separate PvE and PvP modes in Guild Wars?

Isaiah Cartwright: We were interested in developing a game that could handle both an interesting story and hardcore PvP. It created a couple of different problems because one feature we wanted to be paramount was that the power curve would taper off and flatline as you reached top level. It wasn't a power over time game like a lot of others were, and that was one of our starting points to make sure our PvP was balanced. Additionally, we put in things like Observer mode and Tournament to build the infrastructure needed to foster a competitive community. So, our overall philosophy is "Here's what we want to do... so let's work our way through it and see what we learn, doing the right decisions along the way."

Is there a difference in the amount of development focus one type of content gets over another?

Isaiah: I don't know if I'd call it a specific kind of dedication. There are definitely people with specialties, but there's a different amount of content between PvE and PvP. It takes more resources to build something in PvE because there are maps, monsters spawns and so on. While PvP requires less people to create it, it takes more people to test it. When creating a game, we set aside goals for the amount of content that will go into PvP and the things we want for PvE, then we set to doing them.

What are some the challenges of balancing skills and items in PvP gameplay against PvE?

Isaiah: There's definitely a huge conflict of interest. PvE players tend to want extremely overpowered things and feel epic while killing lots of things. They don't want things to change very much. Things need to remain static so that they can learn and plan strategies. Change is bad for them - it creates instability in their world. They often have builds and Heroes set up to work off of each other. A major change could completely destroy their game experience. PvP'ers want things to be very balanced. When things aren't balanced, they want it changed. In fact, changing things up in general can make things a little more exciting in PvP.

Essentially, you have one group that wants things to change all the time and another that wants things to never change. Guild Wars has an extremely complex skill system with thousands of skills and combinations. Anything you do can potentially upset one group or the other. We have to weigh out the costs and benefits of everything that we do. A small change in PvE could have huge impacts on PvP. In the end, it can be such a conflict of interest that no matter what you do, you'll upset somebody. So, we have to constantly evaluate our decisions to keep things moving forward.

Can you envision a future where there will be separate rules for PvE and PvP gameplay?

Isaiah: Moving forward, we realize how hard it is to keep both of these groups happy with a single set of rules. Separating the two aspects would probably be in our better interest in the future, but it's not something that we'd put into the current version of Guild Wars. There would also be some trade-offs. We could split the two aspects apart and include different changes for each, but it would add to the game's complexity. We're always trying to keep our game easy to play. Although it's probably not the best idea to have the same set of rules apply to the two groups of people equally, we don't want to create too much of a divide between PvE and PvP and require a bigger jump to move from one type of gameplay to the other. Right now, the skills work the same in both game types, so players can move easily between the two.

In your opinion, what are some of the key factors that contributed to the success of PvP combat in Guild Wars?

Isaiah: Some of it is the ability to change and adapt the game. Our campaigns added a huge number of skills, and we're constantly making improvements to keep it going. Features like Observer mode and Tournaments that foster a great community. The decisions that we made early on, like not having it be a power over time game, allowed us to make a combat system that isn't based on how time you spend playing, but how good you are. The founders really wanted Guild Wars to be a skill based game that put people on a level PvP playing field when playing.


Were there skills that worked well in PvE, but were changed solely based on PvP gameplay observations?


Isaiah: Quite a few. We started out wanting to change everything that needed to be changed for PvP because we wanted to make a very competitive game for tournaments that had cash prizes. So, we kept PvP at a very high focus and made lots of changes. As we learned more, we realized that we had to look at how these changes were going to affect other game types, not just PvE. There's 4v4, 8v8 and competitive missions, so we had to look at every change to see how they would impact those things. It's very important for us to be careful, because some people have specific builds to farm monsters. It's very easy to change a few numbers for the sake of PvP and blow it all away. There have been times when we made changes for one or the other, and times when we haven't made changes because of one of the other. It's a dance we do with every skill change, and sometimes we make changes that'll upset people, but it's something that really needs to happen.

How do you determine if a skill or combination is overpowered?

Isaiah: It comes from a couple different places. We watch the game a lot. I have an observer mode bot that watches the game 24/7, and I get a natural feel through talking to people. I talk with a couple hundred players every day. We read forums, play the game ourselves and watch the game for ourselves. By playing and talking, you can see things as they develop and catch problems as they occur. Players are really good at pointing out problems, but we need to figure out what actually causes the problem - whether it's a skill or a set of skills at the root of the issue. We're constantly evaluating our own game and discuss what needs to be changed. We'll release a balance update every couple of months. It's a continuous process of trial and error to get to the game that we want.

Our technology allows us to implement changes very quickly, but sometimes we need to let things sit out there for a while to get the full feedback. It's easy for us to change too quickly and not see the full effect. Something might seem overpowered because it's new, and our first reaction is to change it. Then we might realize later on that there are numerous ways to counter it, but players just needed time to get used to it. We have to constantly hold ourselves back and make sure we're making the right decisions.

Has the PvP arena changed significantly since the skill unlock packs were made available for purchase?

Isaiah: We were very cautious when we first came out with unlock packs because we didn't want to upset the balance between the people who earned their skills and those who want to buy them. As we slowly moved forward, we reduced the prices on them and we've seen the impact. We're still evaluating the unlock packs... I mean, who knows what the game would have been like if they were there from the beginning? We knew that much of the game was about collecting skills. As we move forward, we can see that the game is also about what you can do with those skills, which makes collection a kind of stepping stone. So, we increased faction across the board, made it easier to unlock things, and really sped up the process. With thousands of skills to collect, the whole thing can become overwhelming and harder for people to get into. Allowing a part of the community to gain access to skills faster hasn't caused as many problems as thought it would. We're still cautious about it, even though it hasn't had any negative impacts. We don't want to upset the culture we have around the game.

Factions brought in a strong connection between PvP and PvE gameplay. Can players expect to see similar content with future games?

Isaiah: There are a couple different sides to PvP. It can be really hardcore and competitive or it can be fun and casual. We tried to mix more casual PvP with Factions and make it something everyone can enjoy. It's something we strive for. We already have some great hardcore competitive aspects in the game, and we're looking to improve the casual aspects. Ultimately, we look to balance all aspects of our game between hardcore and casual players, from PvE to PvP.

Will there be more tools made for users to broadcast tournaments and battles in future games?

Isaiah: We ran so many of the Guild Wars tournaments ourselves that we didn't get a chance to develop a community-run tournament system. Those things would have allowed for extra longevity and the opportunity for people to try different things out. We'll build more of those tools as we move forward, and want the community to run tournaments as well as us. We want to foster a community that can support itself, and we'll be adjusting our systems accordingly.

With all the different PvP modes in Guild Wars now, will it be a priority to develop new types of gameplay, or is it more important to improve and enhance what's already established?

Isaiah: Definitely to enhance and improve on what's been established. The problem with creating too many modes is that you can fragment your player base and reduce the amount of people playing each one. We have a lot of fragmentation with all the different modes we have right now. It also makes implementing changes using so many different skills very difficult. We have to consider how each skill change will impact each game type.

Any final thoughts?

Isaiah: The big thing we always try to iterate is that we care about all the aspects of our game. We're constantly looking at all the potential impacts to the game whenever we make any changes. It's sometimes hard to see that, but we spend a lot of time discussing how every change affects everyone in all aspects of our game. It's something that we'll continue doing.

Thank you for your time.

vs.
While I agree with Izzy, it seems that Anet's announced decisions are not in line with Izzy's wishes. Perhaps this is why the proposed update has been delayed?

Good interview, but it sounds like it could be 2 years old based on the questions and lack of new information.

Possibly, Esan.

Right now, I'm biding my time. I don't have a good feeling about it. Nor do I have a bad feeling.

Interviews are usually done months in advance though. I'm wondering when this took place, it was published today but could have been months and months ago that it was actually done.

I agree, especially since they talk about the changes that the release of Factions made. No way this is a recent interview.

I completely agree... so far this interview raises nothing but questions.

It is outdated.

Yes, I think that's clearly established. It was posted today though, I'm trying to bring you news. NEWS! Maybe you can think of it as a "how izzy thinks" type of interview instead and realize why some of the changes we've seen recently have taken place.

well it mentions nightfall beifly so its not too old...but still

I do think this wins generalization of the year though

What the hell? I mostly PvE and I want to see changes. I'd like to see buffs to skills that never see the light of day because they outright suck. Not every change has to be a major nerf.

I'd be excited for that, but I don't see it coming to GW1. QQ

Really? You don't say...

RAWR CUP 2008
Guru GVG Challenge 2008

The community is trying. And I know that ArenaNet is trying as well. So it's not a lost cause just yet. Maybe a bit late... but that's another discussion.

Well it can't be too old like 2 years. It talks about nightfall and isn't this a pic from eotn? It looks like one guy has the brass knuckles and the background looks like it too. (Maybe they just through that picture into an old interview though...)

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/news.b...ournament2.jpg

From what it looks like though, they want to separate the game, but at the same time not separate it... um.... I say forget the skills that make people feel "epic" in pve, I feel epic enough with Gwen owning charr in HM with backfire and empathy.

Yes, you can antagonize him all you want about it, but what he said is very true. The majority of PvE only players DO want to kill things and feel epic...or do I have to find those topics of when SR got nerfed (deleting my necro...), Splinter Weapon got nerfed (omg deleting my ranger...) or every skill update that has nerfed a Paragon ever?

That's a mighty wide brush he's painting with.

uh, it's a mighty wide brush EVERYONE paints with when you say "PvErs" and "PvPers" as it is, considering 99% of all PvPers PvE at its highest level, and probably VERY LITTLE % PvEers PvP at its highest level.

It's pretty obvious to anyone with a clue he is saying THE MAJORITY. Or do you honestly expect him to put "the majority of...." before it all the time? Does everyone need to do this? I guess you better put "In my opinion" before your statement too because otherwise I might think its a fact!! He isn't talking about every PvErs but the majority do want what he said.

I must agree with that, but I also agree with the age of this interview. This seems like the philosophy behind GWEN, which I hope they realize turned off a lot of gamers to PvE. This must be old for that reason, the multiple mentionings of Factions w/o Nightfall or GWEN, and the change in philosophy from not separating PvE/PvP skills. Why they would bother releasing a interview 2 years late, however, is a mystery to me.

The MAJORITY want over-powered skills? Was there GW-wide poll I missed? I don't know what the MAJORITY of PvE'rs want, any more than you do, but everyone I do know thinks the PvE skills have taken much of the fun out of this game.

Right, so how does everyone you know make it a mighty wide paint brush?

Again, do I have to point you to the SR change thread, where COUNTLESS PvE players whined about it even though its still the best e-management ability in the game?

How about the Splinter Weapon nerf thread where countless PvE Rangers said they'd quit even though it still does more AoE damage than any other spell in the game and is unremovable?

How about any update thread with Paragon nerfs where apparently Paragons become completely useless and thus PvE paras threaten to delete their class, even though it's the most overpowered class in the game STILL?

I could honestly keep going and name like 6000 other examples.

So the MAJORITY you're speaking of are Forum posters? That's a drop in the bucket compared to the entire GW community, whose opinions aren't necessarily represented by the whiners.

So go into any outpost, press P, and look at all those people who love overpowered skills.

hello ursan.

People love "easy button".

The issue is simple:
PvP seems to balanced on the wishes by the few good players (since there is NO freaking way that the people who do not play high-end PvP do NOT want overpowered skills to trash people in something like RA!) - whereas PvE seems to be balanced on the wishes by the bad players.
As a player grows and gets better - the PvP player reaps the benefits whereas the PvE player just gets more frustrated by the shitty design.

Fix this in GW2.

Solid interview, even though it seems a bit old. The "we aren't splitting PvE and PvP" part makes it seem old, when clearly that is Anet's more recent intentions.

The part about PvE is true though for the majority. There is no scientific proof, but it is easy to see. Almost all nerfs are met with complaints, and almost all buffs are met with cheers by PvE players. It is simple to see this.

To me personally, I am starting to believe there may be divisions in Anet on the direction the game is going. What Izzy says here is not reflecting what is happening to Guild Wars in my opinion.

OMG Izzy is a botter!

Its kinda sad, but it is true ...

Whole of GW2 is based on deepest wishes of bad players, don't count on it to fix anything you find broken.

Isaiah says: PvE players tend to want extremely overpowered things and feel epic while killing lots of things. They don't want things to change very much.

i say: from a pve players point of view That is not what I as a pve player want, Yes we do like the feeling of winning, we do want to feel epic. But do not think that a "static unchange" scenery in a game will hold our interest for too long.

For instant: arena net can make "bosses" spawn in different areas, it could even spawn in different maps. it does not have to be at the same location all the time. where it becomes a 'formula" - non - changeing scenario.

Another instant: New quests could be added to the game. you know things happens everyday, and "our pixel friend" in the game, say Koss' father might have other errends that needs to be done since they are always standing there. which bring another option, these npc could be at differnt places at different times, Besides there are alot of available characters in the game, such as the Homeless Cantha, beside giving them a mirror each, we could probably bring them along a quest and then send them to some farm or more suitable area. Or the Town crier, probably we get to kill them for falsely alarming the general public.

what I am saying is, the game must be Hard to a point that you don't feel there's no challenge, and the game must be non-static that you feel as if you are grinding, a game that "grow" with time.

a timeless game.

So, NO, I as a pve players wants things to change.
Just not they way it was apply

but some of the changes were good.

This is one of the points that tells me that GW2 will have extremely overpowered skills and super easy PvE. And that PvP will not be so much different from the arena-style combat we have nowadays. Except maybe their world battles, probably glorified ABs?

His bolded assumption is fundamentally wrong. I know that there are people who like IMBA stuff to rule, but not for long. But this is destroying the game even for those who like it in the beginning. Because it is just too easy. And it for sure does not characterize my idea of PvE. I want some challenge and effort, not extremely overpowered crap to vaporize mobs while watching TV and eating pretzel sticks with one hand.

I am not happy about this attitude, makes one fear for GW2.

Interesting solution, unfortunately I must say Izzy does not show any love for PvE. You cannot let a person who has such a low opinion and imagination of fun and interesting PvE gameplay make skills for both PvE and PvP.

The only thing coming out of this would be more ursan "blessings".

They must have missed the whole Ursan, Consumables and general difficulty debates here on this and other forums.

One thing I cannot understand: They really respect farming as a valid form of gameplay. I would see it as a sub-division of PvE gameplay, but how on earth can they give farming such a high value? If a farming build gets destroyed, people farm something else, what is the problem? They can of course take farming in account, but given the fact how lowly pve gameplay is evaluted as "overpowered skills killing lots of mobs in an epic way", I can only wonder. They should care more about general PvE than specific farm builds and areas, I cannot believe that.

Hopefully.
But if constantly re-balancing and re-evaluating skills is the only way to keep people PvPing is questionable!

PvP players could use better automated tournaments, interesting new maps and game modes, there are many more important things to do than to nerf and buff builds on a regular basis. Balancing skills is just the BASE, the minimum effort to make a PvP game good, but it needs more than that, sorry.

Also, good PvE gameplay is not defined by overpowered skills versus hopeless mobs. ANet wanted to get away from power grind, and all their title additions to PvE favor grinding for minor skill improvements.

Excellent summary.

GW2= PvP gets a few minor improvements, PvE gets dumbed down even more + added grind and maybe unlimited levels to grind even more.

Wow?

Izzy uses an observer bot! Me wants

Izzy = skill balancer.

He balances skills, he does not give instarape skills to people because they think it's fun. He does not show love for PvE because that's not where skill balance is needed. If you have a bunch of OP skills, you'll encounter em 5% of the time, whereas in PvP you can be sure you'll face them 90% of the time because people will abuse them.

You encounter overpowered and easy to use skills in everyday PvE, too. You know what people are looking for, it starts with U and ends with rsan.

But do you really agree that no skill balance is needed in PvE?
Sure, people are meant to win vs the mobs, everyone knows that! But you still have to keep skills in check, if the mobs die too easy and too quickly to overpowered skills, insta win buttons, the game becomes BORING. The evil UB makes every player almost equal, no class variety, no different methods - but some people like it. I just say they will not enjoy this for long before moving to another game. Reduced complexity does not make a game only more accessible, it can also make it dull.

I lol'ed...

Ursan, anyone?

Still, the whole interview seems shoved with generalizations, but I can't blame him.
Respect to izzy for putting up with our shit.

I have, and except for outposts like ToA, DoA, and assorted dungeons, it's not nearly as common as a few posters here have made it out to be. In any event, my view is that many players slap these skills on their bars not because they want to feel "epic" while owning masses of red dots, but because they want to speed things up. Players completed missions long before these silly skills were introduced, so the skills themselves added nothing to the game but a faster way to do so.

Personally, I don't care if PvE gets overpowered skills, I play for the story, titles and that are just something I consider fun to do after completing the main story.

Most PvEers seem to want some sort of overpowered skills, I mean look at the amount of people who search for partys in PvE, most want Ursan and before that, I bet it was the same for other skills (ursan was just the first example i thought of)

As long as PVP doesn't change too much (as in the way it's done, skill seperation may also be a good thing for PvP and PvE) and PvE gets more missions (for a longer story >_> ) and more quests then I'm happy ^^

I did like this interview though but it does seem a little old so why it was not published earlier....I don't know.

Lol Res, just listen to you. ,,Except for dungeons, elite areas, high-end things that are supposed to be challenging, ursan is almost nowhere''. Yeah, and Buddhists exist everywhere except in mainly catholic countries (like Poland and it's neighbors and protestants), so it would mean they are everywhere. And there is no salt water except for the oceans and seas.

Izzy is a hard hypocrite. He says they nerf skills that appear (HAHAhahHAhAhA OHOOHOH OMFG LMAO) to be overpowered, but ursan is still ruining pve. He says pve is important, but it's lame and too easy.

I really hope they have different ideas now.