Pugs are getting worse I think.

A split/prot monk will always beat a straight healer, because it's always better to prevent/lessen damage in the beginning than to repair it afterwards. Ask any Marine wearing body armor if he would rather have that shrapnel stopped beforehand, or be treated by the corpsman for a gash afterwards. The fact that a crap healing build is used on the Ursan team with success is just more evidence towards Ursan's imbalance, not healing's effectiveness.

As for rez, midliners/casters should carry it for two reasons. One, a midliner like a ranger or paragon has better durability than a monk, so the 4-6 sec of hard res is less of an issue. A mesmer has fast casting; no explanation needed. Two, it lets the monk do their JOB, keeping people from dying.

i think the bigger problem is, why did you keep the hamstorm warrior? that as much as a fail as running the build.

I recently wanted to vanq arbor bay and i saw someone else wanting to come along so i let him..... only thing was he insisted on bringing eles and when i said no he pinged the worst builds in the world. so i just left him after we died on the first mob -_-

I wasnt sure about this but after last night i totally agree. I had a group last night that couldnt even get through assault on the stronghold in 3 tries... one kept going to the right and the others... welll they were all retarded to say the least. I grabbed HH and made it through in one try and pretty quick. I was amazed how dense they people were. One monk thought he could do a ursan monk hibred but kept attacking the right side.... frustrating to say the least.

Maybe you're just bad?

If a ranger's not interrupting, and a monk is rezzing, then neither is doing their job.

Also - no one should have Rebirth.

Your warriors should be doing damage, not tanking.

I totally agree. Pugs really aren't that bad and you can usually tell before you leave town whether the group will succeed or not.

I post a lot of bad pug stories here. I definitely get my share of bad pugs. I have a reputation in my guild for the best bad pug stories. But that doesn't mean all my pugs are horrible. If they were, I'd quit pugging. I pug probably about 4 or 5 times a week and most of them are good groups. It's just that the bad ones are much more memorable and make the best stories.

You don't talk about the Thanksgiving dinners when everyone came and enjoyed a great meal. No, you tell the story about the time Uncle Joe showed up drunk, Cousin Susie's cat jumped on the table, little Bobby threw up on the white couch and Jim-Bob and Mary got into screaming match in the back yard and your neighbors called the police.

Exactly and it's these kinds of stories that give pugging a bad reputation and they really need to stop. I don't care what game you play you're going to have bad experiences, WOW, EQ, DAOC, AO, AA lol you name it even NWN and Diablo II and people shouldn't go around trying to ruin the game for everyone else just because they had a bad or bad experiences.

Pugging is fun more fun than heroes and henchies if you just get over yourself and get off that high horse that you should never lose, everyone play the builds you want them to play or some silliness you read on wiki, never wipe, finish in 30 minutes and all those other silly qualifications of perfection that are mostly impossible to achieve.

If all you care about is winning then by all means only play with heroes and henchies and then when you lose you can blame them, but, do you think they care or it effects how they play in the future? hahah no. But, if you want a REAL ADVENTURE play in PUGS it's the one thing that changes all the time and is never the same twice. It's a pretty great option for those bored with the rest of the game.

I fixed this for you. It isn't like the bad players left anywhere, just now they are playing with their bad heroes by themselves.

No, i find h/h more entertaining to play with than pugs. We have better conversations for a start.

You may prefer pugging and failing but some people enjoy succeeding.

These silly qualifications you speak of seem easily achievable by my heroes and my alliance members. Without using the junk builds on wiki.

I can't help it if pugs are not good enough for my standards. My standards shouldn't have to change just so your pug teams have more of a chance at success. My gameplay in no way affects pug play as i don't play with them at all.

I say people should feel free to post bad pug stories. its entertaining for those of us who don't pug seing what we are "missing" while at the same time may help the poster see the possible stress free life of playing with people who actually know how to play the game.

Given how and when I play, PUG'ing isn't a viable option for me. I often do other things while playing Guild Wars, such as reading new articles, these forums, material for my courses or I play something else at the same time, like Pokemon on my DS. I often don't play at 'peak times', so even if I did want to PUG (which I do occasionally, more often for specific missions I couldn't H+H) the waiting time makes it almost unbearable. Not to mention the fact that I have schedule obligations, so if I get into a mission with H+H nobody's going to care if I suddenly have to drop everything for bloody 25 minute over-hills walk to a bus stop.

Just because I use heroes and henchmen over other players does not mean that I have this amazing standards wherein I can do every single mission in 5 minutes without fail. It just suits better my play style. Really your stereotype is moronic.

And people still wonder why PvE skills and Cons are needed? Even with those stuff I still see pugs struggling....

So so very true and sad... has almost made me give up on pugs in certain areas (UW/FoW specifically) the last 7 pug runs I have been on have been a complete waste of time and cons. Unfortunately for the good ones, there are a number of horrible terras pugging (read farming) you form party and can usually tell who they are going to be; they never have con sets, brag about how fast they can do such and such area, team finally gets to 4 horseman quest where terra can be very useful, and they go down like a sack of sh--, team fails miserably, or first sign of trouble and they are done farming their area they just leave.

I Hate Pugs.

its a simple fact nowadays; the MAJORITY of them suck ass.

thats why good people are rarely found pugging, because they all share this belief, thus they join large guilds and alliances in which the members are all 1337 and do "alliance pugs" together.

like me.

You obviously haven't PUGged much, then. I've PUGged a lot recently (sadly, the guild I was in got consumed by drama ) and the worst experience? Me as a healing Monk in Tahnnakai Temple (back on the 4th; did a search for the TT thread I mentioned it in before ).

The Ranger (the party leader) had a pet (had [[Comfort Animal], but no other skills to take advantage of it) and a shortbow (ie, couldn't pull), there was a Leeroying Assassin (fortunately, he wasn't shadow stepping, so we could keep up with him when he ran off), a Necro who thought he was an MM (only had [[Animate Flesh Golem], 4 other people (a Warrior and a Ritualist, I think, but I can't remember the other two) who were competent enough, and no Ursans.

Almost wiped at Vizu 'cos of a bad pull, but me and one of the others managed to get away and break aggro. I carefully [[Rebirth]ed everyone and we finished. Didn't get Master's because of the near wipe, and the Leeroy whined, but otherwise it was a success (I know what several of you are thinking, but it's not a failure just because we didn't get Master's ) and not at all a frustrating, annoying or chore-like experience.

Wow, it's as if you believe that good players spring out of holes in the ground! If an inexperienced player is not taught by the veterans, how is the gameplay experience for either person going to have a chance at improving?
You can stay there, high on your heroes shoulders stroking your e-peen, or maybe you could try helping others as i'm sure they helped you before you had the advangate of your precious build and heroes.

MOST players are happy to take any advice you give, on the insignificant (though, for some people, impossible) condition that it isnt delivered in an arrogant or pretentious manner. I mean seriously, which are you more likely to listen to;

1. Lol, what a stupid build, wtf were u thinking, n00b?! Use xxxxx before i boot ur ass!!
2. Thats ok, but I think you could improve your skills by using xxxxx because of this reason...

My point is that these "great players" that everyone so coverts did not create their account the night before you met them, they worked and tested and experimented to become the players they are. Of course you are going to get people who are idiots and take no advice, but you will find them in every MMO you ever play. It so happens that they are more prevelent in PUG because of course, they cant get past said mission. But there are still plenty of players with remarkable potential who just need a little encouragement and help to become an asset to any team or guild.

The question is, will the readers of this post take my advice and remember their humility, or do their egos demand to be swelled further by climbing just a little higher on the l337 pedestol?

Because remember guys, everyones gonna be in the same boat come GW2...

That's telling them Nick. As I said before most of those that complain about pugs aren't that great ingame when I get a chance to play with THEM. It's funny they complain while IN the PUG and don't even realize it was THEIR fault the party wiped hahaha how's that for ironic it's actually the complainers that really suk not the normal pug folks.

I agree with Nick , some polite words in a pug can get you far
Also if it wasn't for a guild mate and other nice people to explain some things about GW pve i would never the player I am now. My point , even without help a suggestion or a tip is nice if said in a good way.

Just like TheRaven, I have a reputation amongst the alliance as to have the most horrible PUG experiences... and that's in FoW, DoA, UW.

My last horrible one (and one of the last times I PUGged) was in FoW. 2 of my good friends were monking, maybe 2 others were ursans, but we still had to PUG some slots. A monk ursan self-invites, we take him... we check bars to make sure everyone's running ursan and we head in.

Throughout the run, the ursan monk foes the following:
- Aggroes side groups and blames it on one of the warriors.
- Goes out of ursans WITHIN MOBS in order to heal because apparently our monks are idiots. He refuses to go back in ursan.

At Wailing Lord forest, he rushes the shard wolf as I was pulling it out of the spirit shepherd mob - we're almost out of cons and we wanna do it as fast as possible. The monk ursan RUSHES the wolf and gets spiked as we back off because we're not idiots, we saw him rushing. We clear, res him, he agrees to stay with griffons (big mistake...) and we go in.

By now our cons have ran out and some of us get spiked (thanks for not warning you JUST ended ursan). The ursan monk goes NUTS at our healers, once again, comes back to us with griffons... but we live, we kill off the mob and move. As we make our way back, the ursan monk is RAGING at us, telling everyone to **** themselves, that we suck, that our monks suck, yada yada... he does not shut up for a second.

One mob away, we're having problems - one of the monk is lagging and someone gets spiked... then another... one makes it out, only to see that the monk ursan is coming to us... with the griffons.

Insults us again before letting the griffons get killed.

2 or 3 enemies away from end chest.

How the hell can you be polite in this case? He ****ed over an hour of gameplay because of his stupidity. "Please, next time, try not to rush in with griffons?" I'm sorry, but if you're not polite with me or with my friends, don't expect me to be polite with you.

The worse? that's my GENERAL exp. with PUGs. Hence why I have a relatively bad opinion of them. I wouldn't say that if most PUGs I'd get accomplished more than getting killed a mob or a quest or a boss away from whatever I'm doing with them.

Pugs are worse.

Mainly because most people who play the game think they are gods gift.

Mix two or three of these people in a pug, if they have different views on what your doing, it will be normal if 2 of them rage if your doing what the onther one is saying.

It was better back in 2005, when every1 was just running around with the bars they wanted, doing missions the way they wanted, and generally not having much clue about it, so there was no reason to get worked up about shagging a mission up, because you could just do it again, but this time maby take a bit more flare and mending.

These days its just the 'pro' players playing the cookie cutter builds. Rarely will you find a PUG that will let you use a build that you have made your self. Thats why I only do Ellite areas (fow. etc) with the guild I have been in.

Now I dont have time to go with a guild group because I am never on, but when I am on, I would still never go in a pug.

Things change, you might meet some nice people, but generally the GW community has gone to shit.

Well , I thought politeness before the start , but in your situation , I would wish to have the ability to hurt people just by looking at their characters.

Short answer: you can't. This guy would be one of the fools who, no matter what manner you talk too him, takes the "I'm 1337r than yooh" approach. Proof of this can be found in build-insults, abuse of the monk and complete refusal to accept blame for anything. Because, of course, they are doing everything perfect and YOU are the flawed one.

What I was ranting about are the unpleasent people before starting a mission, and I often find that the behaviour of a player before you begin the mission will indicate how he will play.

I'm sorry you've had a crappy experience with PuG's, I'm not pretending at all that my experiences have been 100% perfect. However, FoW is an elite area (not sure, having never been myself) and you do tend to find the worst players Guild Wars has to offer in places like that.

you never been to FoW lol wtf? is that even possible.

Oops. I have a history of missing a point. x];;;.

But it's rather hard to be polite when you have to ask 4 times to check who's got cons. Who's got snares. Who's running the prot and who's running heal. When no one replies, you kick, and THEN they PM you with their info. Too bad you've gotten replacements already.

You find the worse guys when you -don't- want them, which is always...

Guild team: Let's do an Urgoz speed run, the good ol' way. Missing: 2 nukers, a monk, a b/p and the bipper.

People self-invite.
Nuker 1: Has firestorm, meteor, MS, aura of restoration, no attunement, no energy management. He doesn't wanna change because it's leet.
Nuker 2: Has a bad mix of earth magic and water magic; his elite? Iron Mist.
Monk 1: HBreeze, purge conditions, his elite is Balthazar's Pendulum.
Monk 2: Doesn't reply after several minutes. He's got Banish with 2 smiting prayers, Firestorm because he's Mo/E and you KNOW he's gonna use Healing Touch on the puller.
Ranger 1: Even though you asked for a b/p, he's a trapper and starts calling you noob for running something different.
Necro 1: Quick to reply, but he can't run SS, he can't run BiP either... he wants to MM but his death magic is 9.

Oh and that's only the people who you requested. I didn't count all the warriors and the melee assassins. 'Cause a A/W IS NOT a crit barrager...

You get people with decent builds:
Nuker 3: takes ages to reply but has an okay build.
Monk 3: great build, seems exp... too bad he leaves your team 30 seconds before you go in, forcing you go find another monk... thus spending an extra 30 minutes finding someone.
Ranger 2: is a complete and utter a-hole from the start, but he's the only damned ranger in the district that's currently free. You deal with him.
Necro 3: the bipper - whines 'cause it's taking ages to form. Leaves. Another 30 minutes to find a bipper.
Necro 4: bipper finally showed up after 15 minutes. He's never done it before, you give him a chance but the monks are rushing because all the b/p's are following the puller in... and you realize he doesn't even have a 1hp when you requested one.

You go in:
- The b/p's follow the puller. They don't listen, party wipes a bit.
- The PUG monk goes AFK too often; he leeches the entire run, leaving the guildie monk rush like mad because the bipper isn't doing his job.
- The nukers have reverted their bar without telling you. You see FS being dropped, the foes spread, rape the frontline, rape the backline.

The party wipes...

Total time to form: 2:30 hours.
Total time in: 3 hours.
Speed run my butt.

Im a monk and i have been monking for 2 years with a rez always in my skill bar. Most of the time i hardly have to use it but it helps keep the team up and going instead of getting wiped -> rez shrine -> run back

I have been doing alot of missions HM lately, I always try them out first with H/H. I usually get masters, the ones that are too difficult to do solo, I ask Guild/alliance members to help me. I always do my homework before trying missions. This is an important point, that is at the heart of the problem with Pugs. Only a little effort pays big in saving time and effort.
I never join pugs to get further in the game! Why? because I just dont have time to waste. I have a full RL (afk life ) and have certain things i need to do ingame. PUG's are simply too unreliable.
The only time I actually join a pug is to help people out. I have felt so sorry for ppl stuck in a mission that after I got masters in HM on that mission. The same ppl were still trying find a group so I joined and past it for them. Made me feel better as well as them. I dont always do this however.

I was in a decent PUG yesterday from Ring of Fire - Hell's Precipice. Everyone was polite and good-natured.

The only problem was our ranger who wouldn't lure, and was using kindle arrows (...). It took me a while to notice our warrior wasn't just randomly running around, but was doing the luring job in place of the ranger.

He actually did a good - if a little unorthodox - job.

Kindle Arrows isn't that bad of a skill actually, depends on what else he was using. There's worse skills out there! Haha.

Oh no, it was just that she was using them on the Fire Islands where quite a lot of enemies are fire resistant. XD

Everyone noticed, but we left her alone and didn't bother her. I personally don't think it's worth getting angry over a slight error in judgement. Especially when we were able to complete the missions.

Kusandaa's irritation however, I do understand.

Now.. As for god-awful PUGs I've been in:

Nahpui Quarter is infamous for them. Seriously.

I was monking one time, and decided to go with a PUG. They wanted two other monks, so what the hell. Anyhow, these monks were disgusting elitists who ran ahead and didn't heal anyone but themselves, yammering on about the master's bonus. They also spent abot five minutes convincing the rest of the group one way was faster. I was stuck healing the rest of the party. What were they going to do, wand the celestials to death?

Secondly on my assassin, I was just with two other people. One warrior, and an elementalist. The elementalist was party leader, but entered the mission after asking everyone if they were ready. About halfway through, she realised she had put all her points into the wrong attribute line but insisted we continue. Realising we weren't going to get master's, she called us both noobs and quit out of the mission.

Bleh, there always has to be a killjoy in an otherwise decent team.

However, I do recall PUGs being pretty atrocious when I first started playing.

Captured Son. I was about level 12 or so on my oldest character, and asked for help. About two or three level 20s joined and there were plenty of party wipes before we completed it. I was addicted to that quest back then, and asked for help often on new characters - same result. Predominately level 20 teams being constantly wiped out.

I haven't grouped up with anyone recently for that, so I wouldn't know how difficult it is for pick-up groups. It is easy on my own now or if I'm helping a guildy/friend, however.

This was about two years ago, so are PUGs really getting worse now?

I know its just being pedantic,.....but warriors (the tank of the group) should be the one doing the luring. As a warrior player I find it annoying when rangers take aggro and proceed to lead the monsters to the middle of the group. Tanks take aggro and hold the monsters at bay, where they are supposed to be out in the front for nukers etc, simultaneously protecting backline casters. :P

Luring/Pulling effectively is a skill not all people, even those who choose to play archers, are good at. I know I've caused my share of wipes (since H/H's can't really pull) because of bad pulls... It shouldn't be a big deal if the Ranger can't pull, as long as they mention it beforehand, anyways.

As for [[Kindle Arrows], well, if they weren't using [[Winter] to go with it they should at least be politely informed of the combo for the region for the next time they go through.