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Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

11 Jun 2009 at 06:19 - 81

Primordus does not fly anywere. It explicty says that he is in the depths. Here is the exact line:

Quote:

To this day, he continues to spread his power throughout the deep caverns beneath Tyria.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

11 Jun 2009 at 07:08 - 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I'm sorry, but this has been bugging me since the other topic. How do we know that Grothmar is the water dragon?

As Leon said, through concept art. In fact, we only call Grothmar the water dragon because of the concept art. The concept art of Grothmar is the only place that says "water dragon."

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I left out the Sylvari and Primordus as with the latter I'd have to cover practically the entire map, and the former, is basically a minority.

How do you know the Sylvari will be a minority? :P

Also, in Leon's map, I'd spread Drakkar's territory north, the White Mantle would be on the boarder and the Maguuma Centaur on the other side. And Lion's Arch is also occupied by the Zaishen Order in GW2, not just corsairs.

Lion's Arch, in GW2, has become a city ruled by Corsairs and the Zaishen. It'll be interesting how it turns out, in my opinion. You have one group who would rule the city as a "the only law is that there is no law" kind of place, while the other would probably make it a second battle isles.

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

11 Jun 2009 at 12:08 - 83

So Primordus stays.

I can't see Grothmar flying down, or why the Water Dragon would fly to a desert.
I'd expect Drakkar to control the Far shiverpeaks, and have the Far north dragon fly down over ascalon.

leon: I am guessing that the Sylvari will coexist with the asura, they both seem to be for peace and neutrality.

And Mursaat land is relevant, they're clearly the antagonists of GW2

Doc Zenith

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Jun 2009 at 14:33 - 84

Which one is the dragon who's sleeping beneath where used to be Orr?O?

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

11 Jun 2009 at 15:16 - 85

"Malchor" is the dragon that rose up with Arah, controls all passage in the body of water south of the Tarnished coast (the pink line), he might also be dragon that controls the crystal desert.

If Grothmar is the water dragon, and "In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land", there might be some conflict. I could see Grothmar controlling water, or even somehow getting to a true body of water (not the little lake in the charr homelands), but I could never see Grothmar actually flying.

Operative 14

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Arizona, USA

[OOP] Order of the Phoenix I

11 Jun 2009 at 18:46 - 86

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Concept artwork of it was named as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As Leon said, through concept art. In fact, we only call Grothmar the water dragon because of the concept art. The concept art of Grothmar is the only place that says "water dragon."

I assume you're talking about this peice of work? If so, I'd have to say that the concept for Grothmar has changed drastically since it was first created and named. For one thing, he was near a coastline or a very large body of water in that original peice, certainly not that little puddle where he resides in actuallity. Also, as you mentioned previously Konig, the Charr don't have ships that we know of, certainly not any multi-masted long range ships shown in that concept. It seems more plausible to me that that image was called the "Waterdragon" becuase it has a dragon with water in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Movement of the World

Primordus was the first of the ancient dragons to awaken, calling his servants from their slumber. With his breath, he twisted earth and stone, shaping creatures and giving them life. Although the death of the Great Destroyer, his most powerful general, set back the dragon's awakening by two generations, Primordus once again rose to create ever more minions far beneath the ground. To this day, he continues to spread his power throughout the deep caverns beneath Tyria.

After Primordus, the other great dragons began to stir one by one. The rise of the dragon beneath Orr caused the entire continent to surface, sparking a tidal wave that swept the coastline and drowned thousands. In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land. Only a few years ago, yet another dragon erupted from the northern mountains and flew south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. The land directly below the path of the dragon’s flight was corrupted, becoming a crater of horror. The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

---

An elder dragon of ice and snow arose in the farthest northern peaks, driving even the most stalwart hunters south into Dwarven lands. There they found abandoned Dwarven forts and a new challenge in the form of the Dredge, the old nemeses of the Dwarves, now almost unrecognizable from the primitive, frightened creatures of the past.

---
[The Order of Whispers] work with the Krytans and Ascalonians, and even maintain a presence in Elona, although crossing the Crystal Desert is currently impossible due to Palawa's stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon's presence in the northern desert.

---
The four primary legions of the Charr, the Ash Legion, Blood Legion, Gold Legion, and Iron Legion, each control city-strongholds, spread out across the eastern lands. Charr warbands strike out from these safe havens to defend their territories, battling the shades of Ascalonian warriors, the twisted servants of the desert dragon, and the horrifying beasts that come up from beneath the ground throughout Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks.

Those are quotes from the GW2 Wiki entry on the Movement, so correct me if the articles been summarized (by one of you

) and I'm missing someone. However, based on that, we have the following Dragons;

Primordious - Who is gathering his power underground and does not go anywhere that we know of, south, north, east, or west,.
Orrian Dragon (Malchor?) - Who rises Orr and rules there, creates an undead navy, and separates us from Cantha
Deep Sea Dragon - Resides in the ocean, but affected the inland waters as well
Dragon of Ice and Snow - Maybe Drakkar, maybe the the Dragon North of The Eye, drove the Norn south.
Desert Dragon -Holds Palawa in check, keeps the Charr from expanding south, and flew south from the Northern mountains (it doesn't say this directly but I infer that since the one dragon awoke in the mountains and left the contrail of evil behind it to fly south over Ascalon, it would have ended up settling in the Crystal desert)

And we have visible:

Primordious - during the A Time for Heros quest below the Central Transfer Chamber - Check!
Drakkar - Beneath Drakkar lake, possibly the Dragon of Ice and Snow
Grothmar - The very big guy in Grothmar Wardowns.
The Ice Serpent - Ice Cliff Chasms north of The Eye - seems too minor to be one of the dragons, but still - also possibly the Dragon of Ice and Snow
The Canthan Light Hous... sorry, couldn't resist Konig.

That being the case, it seems like we're missing any sort of mention as to what role Grothmar plays. He's not in the Northern mountains, and it seems like there's doubt as to whether he could even fly, making it highly questionable as to whether he could be the Desert dragon. And he's not the water dragon, because (unless I'm missing a reference to another dragon) the only "Water Dragon" (a name that comes from filename in the above link concept art) is the deep sea dragon. So... who is Grothmar? :/

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Jun 2009 at 19:02 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

How do you know the Sylvari will be a minority? :P

I don't. Really, the main reason, is that I'd have to undo the painting I had already done, and more or less, it just would've taken a bit more time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also, in Leon's map, I'd spread Drakkar's territory north, the White Mantle would be on the boarder and the Maguuma Centaur on the other side.

I had thought of that, with Drakkar, but I was going mostly off the information we have. As such, there's nothing to say it expands its domain northward. As to the Maguuman Centaurs, I don't think they'd even fit on the map anymore, as they were pushed west during the flooding caused by Malchor's rise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And Lion's Arch is also occupied by the Zaishen Order in GW2, not just corsairs.

Lion's Arch, in GW2, has become a city ruled by Corsairs and the Zaishen. It'll be interesting how it turns out, in my opinion. You have one group who would rule the city as a "the only law is that there is no law" kind of place, while the other would probably make it a second battle isles.

Now that, I can honestly say I had forgotten, as the Zaishen aren't really a major group. Although, are you certain it says the Zaishen, and not simply priests of Balthazar? I was probably just thinking they were destroyed after the Battle Isles flooded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative XIV

I assume you're talking about this peice of work? If so, I'd have to say that the concept for Grothmar has changed drastically since it was first created and named. For one thing, he was near a coastline or a very large body of water in that original peice, certainly not that little puddle where he resides in actuallity. Also, as you mentioned previously Konig, the Charr don't have ships that we know of, certainly not any multi-masted long range ships shown in that concept. It seems more plausible to me that that image was called the "Waterdragon" becuase it has a dragon with water in it.

That is the piece of work, and while you're probably right that it was named due to it being in water, it must be remembered that the similarities are striking. Not only that, but it is concept artwork, which means that it's simply that, the concept, and it would of course need to be altered before being put into the game.

If I showed you the concept art of Drakkar, you wouldn't think it was the same thing either. Things change as they are placed in the game, either due to limitations of the game's engine or deadlines to meet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative XIV

That being the case, it seems like we're missing any sort of mention as to what role Grothmar plays. He's not in the Northern mountains, and it seems like there's doubt as to whether he could even fly, making it questionable as to whether he could be the Desert dragon. And he's not the water dragon, because (unless I'm missing a reference to another dragon) the water dragon is the deep sea dragon. So... who is Grothmar? :/

It's mostly been accepted that Grothmar is the one that flies south over Ascalon, as it's the only thing that really fits the description of a dragon. Neo is the only one doubting whether or not Grothmar could fly, really. Besides, after having played Shadow of the Colossus, I believe anything can fly, regardless of size.

Also, for the sake of clarity, we should have stopped calling Grothmar the water dragon months ago. As Grothmar was the name given to it for shorthand, after the area where you can first see it. Plus, it's easier to type than Dalada or Sacnoth. As to Drakkar, I'm pretty bloody sure that's meant to be the dragon of ice and snow, as Linsey mentioned there were plans for it, there's concept artwork that depicts it as being more dragonlike in nature, and the area's name can be translated to dragon. Need we anymore evidence for the time being?

Aside from that..We can't call whatever dragon it is Grothmar if Grothmar isn't Grothmar, as we only gave it that name due to the area.

Operative 14

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Arizona, USA

[OOP] Order of the Phoenix I

11 Jun 2009 at 19:41 - 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That is the piece of work, and while you're probably right that it was named due to it being in water, it must be remembered that the similarities are striking. Not only that, but it is concept artwork, which means that it's simply that, the concept, and it would of course need to be altered before being put into the game.

If I showed you the concept art of Drakkar, you wouldn't think it was the same thing either. Things change as they are placed in the game, either due to limitations of the game's engine or deadlines to meet.

Oh definately, I think that's the point I was trying to make. Although it definitively shows the Grothmar Wardowns Dragon, I have no quarral with that, the filename doesn't prove that it is a new Water Dragon. I think mostly I was just arguing against the idea of it being the water dragon becuase there was no mention of a water dragon seperate from the Deep Sea Dragon in the movement. And, also, becuase I thought that basing such a major peice of lore supposition off of a filename was a bit questionable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

It's mostly been accepted that Grothmar is the one that flies south over Ascalon, as it's the only thing that really fits the description of a dragon. Neo is the only one doubting whether or not Grothmar could fly, really. Besides, after having played Shadow of the Colossus, I believe anything can fly, regardless of size.

Also, for the sake of clarity, we should have stopped calling Grothmar the water dragon months ago. As Grothmar was the name given to it for shorthand, after the area where you can first see it. Plus, it's easier to type than Dalada or Sacnoth. As to Drakkar, I'm pretty bloody sure that's meant to be the dragon of ice and snow, as Linsey mentioned there were plans for it, there's concept artwork that depicts it as being more dragonlike in nature, and the area's name can be translated to dragon. Need we anymore evidence for the time being?

Aside from that..We can't call whatever dragon it is Grothmar if Grothmar isn't Grothmar, as we only gave it that name due to the area.

I can buy that. I agree and think it's possible that anything, any size could fly in a game like Guild Wars. I think the only question I have is that it's not in the "Northern Mountains". However that could be attributable to infering the wrong thing from the movement, or simply the plan changing from one month to another at Arenanet.

As for Drakkar, there wasn't really much question in my mind either. I was just trying to summarize what the Movement article said versus a year or two worth of ideas.

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

11 Jun 2009 at 19:55 - 89

Could the bone dragon under the bridge in the catacombs perhaps be what corrupts ascalon?

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Jun 2009 at 20:01 - 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I can buy that. I agree and think it's possible that anything, any size could fly in a game like Guild Wars. I think the only question I have is that it's not in the "Northern Mountains". However that could be attributable to infering the wrong thing from the movement, or simply the plan changing from one month to another at Arenanet.

I had a thought as I was responding to your other post, that for some reason I didn't post, and it was that Grothmar itself might have been viewed as a small mountain range of sorts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Could the bone dragon under the bridge in the catacombs perhaps be what corrupts ascalon?

Nope, most take that as being another Giganticus Lupicus skeleton.

Obrien Xp

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2009

Canada

The First Dragon Slayers [FDS]

11 Jun 2009 at 20:25 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Could the bone dragon under the bridge in the catacombs perhaps be what corrupts ascalon?

I had totally forgotten about that thing!

Though Giganticus Lupicus would make sense I suppose.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

11 Jun 2009 at 23:09 - 92

Lots of big posts since I fell asleep...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

I can't see Grothmar flying down, or why the Water Dragon would fly to a desert.
I'd expect Drakkar to control the Far shiverpeaks, and have the Far north dragon fly down over ascalon.

Why would the dragon of Ice and Snow go to a Desert?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

If Grothmar is the water dragon, and "In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land", there might be some conflict. I could see Grothmar controlling water, or even somehow getting to a true body of water (not the little lake in the charr homelands), but I could never see Grothmar actually flying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I assume you're talking about this peice of work? If so, I'd have to say that the concept for Grothmar has changed drastically since it was first created and named. For one thing, he was near a coastline or a very large body of water in that original peice, certainly not that little puddle where he resides in actuallity. Also, as you mentioned previously Konig, the Charr don't have ships that we know of, certainly not any multi-masted long range ships shown in that concept. It seems more plausible to me that that image was called the "Waterdragon" becuase it has a dragon with water in it.

I have to agree with you, O14, we only use the name "water dragon" due to the concept art, and it seems to me that the Water Dragon could have been intended for coastline (or orrian edge - those could be Corsair ships) or an island in the Unending Ocean. Thus the name could be out of date - so to speak. Even though it is still an island.

I suggest we drop the "water dragon" name completely and just settle with "Grothmar."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

Primordious - Who is gathering his power underground and does not go anywhere that we know of, south, north, east, or west,.
Orrian Dragon (Malchor?) - Who rises Orr and rules there, creates an undead navy, and separates us from Cantha
Deep Sea Dragon - Resides in the ocean, but affected the inland waters as well
Dragon of Ice and Snow - Maybe Drakkar, maybe the the Dragon North of The Eye, drove the Norn south.
Desert Dragon -Holds Palawa in check, keeps the Charr from expanding south, and flew south from the Northern mountains (it doesn't say this directly but I infer that since the one dragon awoke in the mountains and left the contrail of evil behind it to fly south over Ascalon, it would have ended up settling in the Crystal desert)

And we have visible:

Primordious - during the A Time for Heros quest below the Central Transfer Chamber - Check!
Drakkar - Beneath Drakkar lake, possibly the Dragon of Ice and Snow
Grothmar - The very big guy in Grothmar Wardowns.
The Ice Serpent - Ice Cliff Chasms north of The Eye - seems too minor to be one of the dragons, but still - also possibly the Dragon of Ice and Snow
The Canthan Light Hous... sorry, couldn't resist Konig.

That being the case, it seems like we're missing any sort of mention as to what role Grothmar plays. He's not in the Northern mountains, and it seems like there's doubt as to whether he could even fly, making it highly questionable as to whether he could be the Desert dragon. And he's not the water dragon, because (unless I'm missing a reference to another dragon) the only "Water Dragon" (a name that comes from filename in the above link concept art) is the deep sea dragon. So... who is Grothmar? :/

Funny O14. Anyways, the Ice Pillar creature cannot be the Dragon of Ice and Snow, why? As I pointed out, it is south of the Norn settlements, and would push the Norn north when the Movement says they are pushed south.

Grothmar could still be able to fly, we do not see his whole body, just his back (if that is even is back! For all we know, it could be the top of his head, or his tale, or belly, or something), so I don't think we should count him out as being unable to fly yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Now that, I can honestly say I had forgotten, as the Zaishen aren't really a major group. Although, are you certain it says the Zaishen, and not simply priests of Balthazar? I was probably just thinking they were destroyed after the Battle Isles flooded.

It does say priests of Balthazar, but the priests are part of the Zaishen, are they not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I can buy that. I agree and think it's possible that anything, any size could fly in a game like Guild Wars. I think the only question I have is that it's not in the "Northern Mountains". However that could be attributable to infering the wrong thing from the movement, or simply the plan changing from one month to another at Arenanet.

Or it could be that the Charr Homelands is on the other side of Mountains (kind of does look like some mountains south of Grothmar, in my opinion) and that to the human settlement, it is not in, but past the Northern Mountains. Or it could be a misplacement/bad wording/bad communication between Anet staff. Or it could be that they intend to move Grothmar north for GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Could the bone dragon under the bridge in the catacombs perhaps be what corrupts ascalon?

How can bones be a living dragon? There is only one undead dragon, which is in Orr. Those bones, and all others found, are Giganticus Lupicus.

Also, the Ancient Dragons were made after the creation and release of Nightfall.

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

11 Jun 2009 at 23:18 - 93

Konig, I'm not saying that Drakkar flies down to the desert, but that another Dragon hidden in the mountains farther North flies down to the desert.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

11 Jun 2009 at 23:26 - 94

Either way, everyone's adding too many dragons.

I think it's rather cramped enough with 5/6 large and powerful beings in the same continent. Do we really need to end up having 7 or 8? Shesh....

Think about it, if there was a dragon north of Grothmar, and it flew over Grothmar, I'm sure that there would be a battle between them.

Let us stop trying to make new dragons, and work with what we know we have, which is Primodus, Drakkar/Dragon of Snow and Ice, Grothmar/Northern Mountain Dragon, Malchor/Undead Dragon, and the Deep Sea Dragon. Possibly the Desert Dragon being a sixth one.

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Jun 2009 at 23:34 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I suggest we drop the "water dragon" name completely and just settle with "Grothmar."

*coughmoreorlesssaidthatcough*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It does say priests of Balthazar, but the priests are part of the Zaishen, are they not?

I'd have to look at the Movement, but assuming that, simply because they are priests of Balthazar, they belong to the Zaishen, is just as bad as assuming the Shaman are all casters. Yes, those priests of Balthazar were the remnants of the Zaishen that reunited in Lion's Arch after the flooding of the Battle Isles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

Konig, I'm not saying that Drakkar flies down to the desert, but that another Dragon hidden in the mountains farther North flies down to the desert.

Why can't Grothmar BE the mountains that the dragon in question erupts from? Somewhere here, someone, I want to say Draxynnic, suggested something like what we see in Grothmar Wardowns being something of a cocoon or something. Not sure..I'll have to see if I can find it.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

12 Jun 2009 at 00:02 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

*coughmoreorlesssaidthatcough*

I typed that out before I read your response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'd have to look at the Movement, but assuming that, simply because they are priests of Balthazar, they belong to the Zaishen, is just as bad as assuming the Shaman are all casters. Yes, those priests of Balthazar were the remnants of the Zaishen that reunited in Lion's Arch after the flooding of the Battle Isles.

It's not that bad, to be honest. But, if I remember correctly, the Priests of Balthazar were a part of the Zaishen. Though, I could be wrong.

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

12 Jun 2009 at 00:11 - 97

Im not saying 7 or 8, but 5 dragons.
Primordus
Drakkar
Grothmar
Far north dragon
Malchor

I doubt that Grothmar would fight with the north dragon, as Grothmar is still sleeping.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

12 Jun 2009 at 00:19 - 98

You forgot the Deep Sea Dragon. And you were claiming at points that the Ice Pillar creature was a dragon of it's own. Thus, 7. And at a point you claimed for there to be a dragon above Drakkar. Which would make 8.

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

12 Jun 2009 at 02:05 - 99

the dragon above drakkar is the far north dragon, i am not viewing the ice cliffs serpent as a dragon, and i did miss the deep sea dragon, so 6.

I'll make a new map of what I think is going on tommorow, now that i've worked out a few kinks.

Obrien Xp

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2009

Canada

The First Dragon Slayers [FDS]

12 Jun 2009 at 02:12 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

You forgot the Deep Sea Dragon. And you were claiming at points that the Ice Pillar creature was a dragon of it's own. Thus, 7. And at a point you claimed for there to be a dragon above Drakkar. Which would make 8.

Yeah, koing has it, we're making too many dragons. All I have agreed on is Grothmar, Drakkar, Primodrious, and Malchor. Those are the only confirmed ones. As far as I'm concerned there are 4 atm. There needs to be one more (sure the desert one, why not) so that there is 1 per playable race. That is how I see it will be.

Asura: Primordious (underground)
Charr: Grothmar (Ascalon and area)
Humans: Malchor (Orr*)
Norn: Drakkar (Shiverpeaks)
Sylvari: Desert/unknown (That's the only one left so I cannot think of another one)

*edit-whoops

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

12 Jun 2009 at 02:21 - 101

...what? Malchor is controlling the southern part of Tyria, not Kryta.
Intresting, I just read that Malchor is the most powerful being in all of tyria... so much for primordus being the leader.

I don't think adding a Dragon where we have no alternatives is that bad.

The far north Dragon could easily be replaced by the ice cliff serpent.

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

12 Jun 2009 at 02:29 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

...what? Malchor is controlling the southern part of Tyria, not Kryta.
I don't think adding a Dragon where we have no alternatives is that bad.

The far north Dragon could easily be replaced by the ice cliff serpent.

It is bad when there is no evidence to support their existence. Also, I think Obrien was trying to indicate the areas the Ancient Dragons are affecting, not that they control. Technically the Desert dragon isn't affecting anyone, though.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

12 Jun 2009 at 02:30 - 103

Malchor controls Orr+Strait of Malchor (water between Orr and the Ring of Fire).
Primordus controls the depths.
Drakkar controls the far shiverpeaks
Grothmar controls Ascalon areas
Deep Sea Dragon controls underwater (possible the Sea of Sorrows)

There are, at least 5 dragons - all the aforementioned in my post.

Also, lol Obrien, you say four but yet name 5 and forgot one that is known to be seperate.

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

12 Jun 2009 at 05:44 - 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'd have to look at the Movement, but assuming that, simply because they are priests of Balthazar, they belong to the Zaishen, is just as bad as assuming the Shaman are all casters. Yes, those priests of Balthazar were the remnants of the Zaishen that reunited in Lion's Arch after the flooding of the Battle Isles.

Worse, I'd say, since shaman inherently implies use of magic.

The Zaishen and the Battle Isles may be the most prominent location of Balthazar worship, but it's far from the only site - we have the god-realm access sites in all three continents, for example, each of which likely has custodians of the shrine of Balthazar that aren't necessarily Zaishen (with the possible exception of Zin Ku Corridor). House Vasburg is devoted to Balthazar, so they'll certainly have priests of Balthazar who aren't Zaishen. According to the lore, Mhenlo is split between Dwayna and Balthazar (although in-game he always seems to go to the Dwayna side in practise) while in presearing, Grazden the Protector is found near the Balthazar statue, likely implying that, as is normal according to the lore for Protection and Smiting monks in general, Grazden is a follower of Balthazar.

So, in short, there are plenty of priests of Balthazar that aren't Zaishen. The Movement of the World does imply that the priests at Lion's Arch will at least be spiritual descendants of those at the Battle Isles (it talks about the priests from the Battle Isles being scattered and then regrouping at Lion's Arch, and they certainly seem to be behaving a lot like the Zaishen), but they could easily be a new group that has arisen to fill the same role.

Quote:

Why can't Grothmar BE the mountains that the dragon in question erupts from? Somewhere here, someone, I want to say Draxynnic, suggested something like what we see in Grothmar Wardowns being something of a cocoon or something. Not sure..I'll have to see if I can find it.

Wasn't me.

Although on another subject, I went looking into Ecology of the Charr about the status of the Shamans... and it's still unclear as to whether it covers all magic-users or whether there was some other factor that denoted a Charr as being a Shaman - and if the latter, why the Charr don't simply ensure that future magic-users don't have that factor. The best fit I can think of is that either the future Charr define a 'Shaman' simply as a descendant of the shamans of the past, or that there is some custom or belief that GW2-era shamans continue to maintain despite being relegated to being second-class citizens as a result. Either way, the other Charr put up with the Shamans that remain simply because they are too useful to slaughter out-of-hand even if they are also a potential threat.

Incidentally, a careful reading also reveals that the island volcano visible to the northwest of the EOTN map isn't Hrangmer - instead, it does in fact appear to be in the northeast region of Charr territory, the Flame Legion having retreated there after their defeat.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

12 Jun 2009 at 06:19 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The Zaishen and the Battle Isles may be the most prominent location of Balthazar worship, but it's far from the only site - we have the god-realm access sites in all three continents, for example, each of which likely has custodians of the shrine of Balthazar that aren't necessarily Zaishen (with the possible exception of Zin Ku Corridor). House Vasburg is devoted to Balthazar, so they'll certainly have priests of Balthazar who aren't Zaishen. According to the lore, Mhenlo is split between Dwayna and Balthazar (although in-game he always seems to go to the Dwayna side in practise) while in presearing, Grazden the Protector is found near the Balthazar statue, likely implying that, as is normal according to the lore for Protection and Smiting monks in general, Grazden is a follower of Balthazar.

So, in short, there are plenty of priests of Balthazar that aren't Zaishen. The Movement of the World does imply that the priests at Lion's Arch will at least be spiritual descendants of those at the Battle Isles (it talks about the priests from the Battle Isles being scattered and then regrouping at Lion's Arch, and they certainly seem to be behaving a lot like the Zaishen), but they could easily be a new group that has arisen to fill the same role.

The priests of Balthazar the article mentions (at least in my opinion) are those that are found at nearly every arena (especially before the Battle Isle) and are all around the Battle Isles. I don't mean "Monks/Priests that worship Balthazar," I mean these guys. Which I think the article means as well.

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

12 Jun 2009 at 13:56 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

It is bad when there is no evidence to support their existence. Also, I think Obrien was trying to indicate the areas the Ancient Dragons are affecting, not that they control. Technically the Desert dragon isn't affecting anyone, though.

But we do have evidence. In the movement it states that a dragon bursts out of the far shiverpeaks and flies over ascalon. Grothmar isn't in the shiverpeaks, Drakkar is controlling the Far shiverpeaks, Malchor has the southern part (maybe the desert).
The only 2 options are the ice cliff serpent or another dragon.

Mordakai

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Kyhlo

W/

12 Jun 2009 at 14:54 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

But we do have evidence. In the movement it states that a dragon bursts out of the far shiverpeaks and flies over ascalon. Grothmar isn't in the shiverpeaks, Drakkar is controlling the Far shiverpeaks, Malchor has the southern part (maybe the desert).
The only 2 options are the ice cliff serpent or another dragon.

Where does it say "far shiverpeaks"?

All I can find is a reference to "northern mountains."

Now, I know it's a stretch, but it could be the writer is considering the Grothmar Wardowns generally as "from the northern mountains."

If that's the case, the Grothmar Dragon could be the dragon that flies over Ascalon, which makes sense it would start in Charr territory as foreshadowing.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

12 Jun 2009 at 17:13 - 108

Neo, your ideas have started making you think that your thoughts are becoming more and more based on fact, than completely random and baseless hypothesis.

And Mordakai, it's not that big of a stretch, as south of Grothmar, it looks like there may be a small mountain range, which from the view of the human settlements (especially Ebonhawke) would mean that Grothmar came from "in or pass the Northern Mountains" even though there are more mountains north of Grothmar.

People need to remember, articles like the Movement are written with an in-game feel *i.e., not breaking the fourth wall (characters knowing they are in a game/book/movie/show)* which means that the articles would also be limited in perspective and thus, we know more than the writer (although in this case it is only the map we know more).

The EN areas, especially the North, could be very well still unexplored by humans - note how little we went through! - so from an in-game perspective, Grothmar could be north of "northern mountains" that, in the past, split Ascalon from the Charr Homelands.

Off-topic: Why did Anet ever have to hide the Charr Homelands' name from us? Typing out "Charr Homelands" every time is... annoying! >_<

Operative 14

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Arizona, USA

[OOP] Order of the Phoenix I

12 Jun 2009 at 19:42 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Funny O14. Anyways, the Ice Pillar creature cannot be the Dragon of Ice and Snow, why? As I pointed out, it is south of the Norn settlements, and would push the Norn north when the Movement says they are pushed south.

By that logic though Drakkar would push the Norn East, since he's mostly in the far western portions of the domain. I agree with you that Drakkar is most likely the Dragon of Ice and Snow. However, hypothetically were the Ice Serpent to be the I&S dragon it would want to clear its domain (I.E. the Icy regions from the Northern shiverpeaks up to the polar caps), not fill it with a bunch of brawling weirdos, so it would try to herd them out to the south. I think the point I'm trying to make, though, is that just simply because it's in the southern areas of the domain does not mean it will necessarily drive them north. Maybe it flies overhead and attacks from the north, maybe it attacks in the dead middle of winter making it so the only open passages are to the south, maybe the Norn find it more brave to fight their way through the dragon while running away than to just simply run from it. Who knows, but I don't think we should discount such a possibility simply because of positioning. Again, however, I do agree that Drakkar is the most likely candidate for the I&S dragon.

--

The article says that LA is settled by corsairs and the remnants of the Battle Isles pretty clearly. That being the case, it seems like LA will be populated by the Zaishen, or their descendants and people who follow their order. Aside from the pirates.

Obrien Xp

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2009

Canada

The First Dragon Slayers [FDS]

12 Jun 2009 at 20:17 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also, lol Obrien, you say four but yet name 5 and forgot one that is known to be seperate.

I said that the 5th one was either that deep one the desert one or some other thing. Other than Prim, Drakk, Mal, and Groth. I don't have any other guaranteed dragons, I know there are 5 but I can't decide if its the deep sea thing or desert dragon.

Mordakai

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Kyhlo

W/

12 Jun 2009 at 20:44 - 111

Quick question: are we calling the Orr Dragon Malchor, just because of the Straights of Malchor?

Couldn't they be named after something else?

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

12 Jun 2009 at 21:22 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Quick question: are we calling the Orr Dragon Malchor, just because of the Straights of Malchor?

Couldn't they be named after something else?

it could easily be named after anything else. we've just been sticking to calling dragons by their locations. the only official name so far is Primordus.

Drakkar, Malchor, and Grothmar are just made-up names.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

12 Jun 2009 at 23:42 - 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

By that logic though Drakkar would push the Norn East, since he's mostly in the far western portions of the domain.

Not really, of what we've seen, the only Norn settlement north of Drakkar is Sifhalla, with Longeye's directly east. So those at Sifhalla may be killed off (which is most likely the case) and the rest pushed south eventually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I agree with you that Drakkar is most likely the Dragon of Ice and Snow. However, hypothetically were the Ice Serpent to be the I&S dragon it would want to clear its domain (I.E. the Icy regions from the Northern shiverpeaks up to the polar caps), not fill it with a bunch of brawling weirdos, so it would try to herd them out to the south.

As Leon said and his reasoning for, on his map, not covering the Far Shiverpeaks north of what we've seen as the Dragon of Snow and Ice's domain, we don't know that he goes "up to the polar caps". Though it would be logical that it would push further north than what we've seen, and if that were the case then it would still push them north (as the world of Tyria seems to be a globe) or kill them off completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I think the point I'm trying to make, though, is that just simply because it's in the southern areas of the domain does not mean it will necessarily drive them north. Maybe it flies overhead and attacks from the north, maybe it attacks in the dead middle of winter making it so the only open passages are to the south, maybe the Norn find it more brave to fight their way through the dragon while running away than to just simply run from it. Who knows, but I don't think we should discount such a possibility simply because of positioning. Again, however, I do agree that Drakkar is the most likely candidate for the I&S dragon.

bolded part I laughed at because, according to the norn, the far shiverpeaks is implied to be the same all year round. Anyways, I don't think the Dragon of Ice and Snow would think to the extent of "flying over and attacking from the north" and I don't think that the Norn would fight through to run away - if you're able to break through, then you most likely have a chance, so I would think many, if not all, would then attack the Dragon's army from behind if that were the case (instead of continuing far south enough to encounter the Dredge).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

The article says that LA is settled by corsairs and the remnants of the Battle Isles pretty clearly. That being the case, it seems like LA will be populated by the Zaishen, or their descendants and people who follow their order. Aside from the pirates.

I think it would be both. Corsairs, who enjoy money and any means to get it, I think would love to help "organize" (that is, reap from the benefits of charging spectators) the arenas. And some would, like any other fighter, find it a good sport to join in the arenas.

And I'm sure some would think the Hall of Heroes is nicely filled with some gold. ;P

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

15 Jun 2009 at 04:52 - 114

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Off-topic: Why did Anet ever have to hide the Charr Homelands' name from us? Typing out "Charr Homelands" every time is... annoying! >_<

Possibly because it hasn't been given a name as such. The Charr may simply not bother naming their territory as anything other than 'our territory', while their neighbours may just have named it some iteration of Charrland or "the Directionlands" (Eastlands for the Norn, Northlands for Ascalon).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Not really, of what we've seen, the only Norn settlement north of Drakkar is Sifhalla, with Longeye's directly east. So those at Sifhalla may be killed off (which is most likely the case) and the rest pushed south eventually.

Actually, there are others that aren't outposts - Egil's Perch, Volsung's Stead, and Jora's homestead. None of these are particularly defensible, though - it's possible that those inhabitants that survived Drakkar's initial appearance (if any) were able to get to Gunnar's Hold before Drakkar consolidated its control and started pushing.

Or, as I speculated earlier, the Norn may have been split in two with some of their population pushed north instead, but that doesn't happen to be the group that Norn PCs arise from.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

15 Jun 2009 at 07:12 - 115

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Possibly because it hasn't been given a name as such. The Charr may simply not bother naming their territory as anything other than 'our territory', while their neighbours may just have named it some iteration of Charrland or "the Directionlands" (Eastlands for the Norn, Northlands for Ascalon).

Shortly after EN released, Gaile said that there was a name for the Charr Homelands, but it wasn't going to be announced until GW2. >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, there are others that aren't outposts - Egil's Perch, Volsung's Stead, and Jora's homestead. None of these are particularly defensible, though - it's possible that those inhabitants that survived Drakkar's initial appearance (if any) were able to get to Gunnar's Hold before Drakkar consolidated its control and started pushing.

Or, as I speculated earlier, the Norn may have been split in two with some of their population pushed north instead, but that doesn't happen to be the group that Norn PCs arise from.

Yeah, I realized I forgot those three, but didn't bother to correct myself. I wouldn't doubt some Norn being pushed North, but the point of what I said was to help with how the Ice Pillar lizard couldn't be the Dragon of Ice and Snow. But, meh. Losing interest in this topic.

Edit: To bring this topic back to the Dragons as a whole. One of the many "suspected GW2 concept arts" found is titled "Storm Lord" and shows a Dragon in it. To me, it looks like it is over Augury Rock in the Mesa. Perhaps concept art for the Desert Dragon?

If so, that would mean Grothmar isn't the Desert Dragon. Though, concept art is not something to go fully off of *sadly*.

If Grothmar isn't the Desert Dragon, I'm not sure how GW2 will be... that would mean 6 "god rivaling" ancient creatures in such a small area. It kind of seems... silly to me if that is the case (if lucky, then the Deep Sea Dragon is further away from Tyria that implied via Movement, and the flying south dragon and the Desert Dragon are the same).

If it were 6 "god rivaling" ancient creatures across the planet of Tyria, that would be a different story (because 1: Why are they only in the continent of Tyria? 2: If they were elsewhere as well, there would be way to many and would just get repetative and boring, and 3: how are normal mortals suppose to kill so many "god rivaling" creatures that are as big as Giganticus Lupicus *or bigger* and those Crystal Desert statues....)

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

15 Jun 2009 at 08:52 - 116

Not to sound like a jerk, but I'm going to list this off for brevity's sake.

1. Note the mountains in the background.
2. Note the detail on the "rock" towards its center at the bottom.
3. Note all the green at the bottom.
4. Note lack of water that's in front of Augury Rock.
5. Note the tree/plantlife in the foreground.
6. Note the intricacy of the center-bottom piece.
7. Note the fact that this would be a very impressive look for the Iron Citadel.
8. Note that Grothmar flies over Ascalon, and probably over the Iron Citadel.

Combine the last two, and you get a really amazing piece of concept art that not only shows off what may be Grothmar's awe-inspiring form, but the intimidating look of what may be the Iron Citadel.

...9. Note the MAY BE's people other than Konig.

Also, if we want a shorthand form of Charr homelands, we could always use Adan. Garfaz says it in a similar manner to Ascalon in his quote here.

As to the Storm Lord name, without water, you haven't a storm, right? (Ignoring the obvious sandstorm/dust storms.)

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

15 Jun 2009 at 11:34 - 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not to sound like a jerk, but I'm going to list this off for brevity's sake.

1. Note the mountains in the background.
2. Note the detail on the "rock" towards its center at the bottom.
3. Note all the green at the bottom.
4. Note lack of water that's in front of Augury Rock.
5. Note the tree/plantlife in the foreground.
6. Note the intricacy of the center-bottom piece.
7. Note the fact that this would be a very impressive look for the Iron Citadel.
8. Note that Grothmar flies over Ascalon, and probably over the Iron Citadel.

Combine the last two, and you get a really amazing piece of concept art that not only shows off what may be Grothmar's awe-inspiring form, but the intimidating look of what may be the Iron Citadel.

...9. Note the MAY BE's people other than Konig.

Not sure if you are saying that it is not Augury Rock but the Iron Citadel, or if it is Augury Rock... but here's my response to how it is Augury Rock...

1. The Mesa is in an area which declines into the ground, Ascalon doesn't have many mountains, if I remember correctly. It's more like broken land, though that could be what is depicted.
2. After we Ascend, we never see Augury Rock in its "opened" state - nor do we see it as we go up the rocks (we view from the inside). I see in the concept at the bottom an "opening" then the design at the top, the rest looks like rock to me.
3. The Mesa is filled with plantlife, unlike most of the desert.
4. There actually seems to be water there, for me, but with a yellowish tint almost making it look like a liquid sulfur substand, possibly due to the lighting (could also be that the water dries up).
5. -points at number 3-
6. -points at number 2-
7. I would actually view the Iron Citadel to be more spire-like than a huge block with designs.
8. Possible, or to the east of it. If Grothmar is the Desert Dragon, this could still be concept art for it since we don't see the back of the dragon. And would still work as Augury Rock.
9. -points at number 9-

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Combine the last two, and you get a really amazing piece of concept art that not only shows off what may be Grothmar's awe-inspiring form, but the intimidating look of what may be the Iron Citadel.

Doesn't look that intimidating to me, even taking out the dragon. Just looks... very intricecly designed, More-so for Charr architecture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Also, if we want a shorthand form of Charr homelands, we could always use Adan. Garfaz says it in a similar manner to Ascalon in his quote here.

Never knew that, but I'd have to say that would be members of Garfaz's warband. |Edit: Then again, the second word/name (Farzot) could be a Charr word, and not a warband name|

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As to the Storm Lord name, without water, you haven't a storm, right? (Ignoring the obvious sandstorm/dust storms.)

Which would also work with "Water Dragon" - ironically enough, after we say not to use "Water Dragon" we get a possible "Storm" dragon....

Perhaps the reason why "Grothmar" goes to the Crystal Desert - if in fact the same as the Desert Dragon - is because it recalls there being an body of water, but the sea is now a desert, so it goes from "Water Dragon" to "Desert Dragon" (for no-name titling sake?)

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

15 Jun 2009 at 20:58 - 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

1. The Mesa is in an area which declines into the ground, Ascalon doesn't have many mountains, if I remember correctly. It's more like broken land, though that could be what is depicted.

Ascalon doesn't have many mountains within its territory, but it is surrounded by mountains to the south and west. The Shiverpeaks are noted for their enormous size, and the ability to see them from vast distances, after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

2. After we Ascend, we never see Augury Rock in its "opened" state - nor do we see it as we go up the rocks (we view from the inside). I see in the concept at the bottom an "opening" then the design at the top, the rest looks like rock to me.

We see enough of Augury Rock in its opened state to know that there isn't a very intricately designed circle near its bottom. We also see enough of it to know that it isn't opened in a finely cut manner, as by human hands, as the picture seems to depict.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

7. I would actually view the Iron Citadel to be more spire-like than a huge block with designs.

This is the downside to both our arguments, as neither of us nor anyone else has ever seen any solid, established Charr architecture. It's easier to assume that what we see in the Northlands in Eye of the North are merely camps, rather than anything permanent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Doesn't look that intimidating to me, even taking out the dragon. Just looks... very intricately designed, More-so for Charr architecture.

Large, especially extremely large, usually tends to imply intimidating to humans. Looking at in a picture as we are, of course it wouldn't, but seeing it in "person", I imagine it would.

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

16 Jun 2009 at 04:42 - 119

the main problem i have with that pic being in the crystal desert is the flock of birds on the right side.

jesus christ this firefly is annoying...

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

16 Jun 2009 at 05:11 - 120

There are birds in the Crystal Desert/Desolation. o_o