An Open Letter to ANet - Part 2 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 14:11 - 481

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

personally i wouldnt mind but it will be just reverting to pre pve skils/EoTN state where you can be masterfully skilled mesmer and your presence in some end game content (DoA) would be practicly not possible. So it won't be going back to skill>time period of gw.

Because all they did was buff the mobs up to insanty.

It's probably possible though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

You somehow believe that a game should be more than just for enjoyment. If speaking on behalf of themselves so they can enjoy said game, which itself is making the game fun to them, how is that not speaking on behalf of the game in their eyes? Making the game more fun is what everyone should be aiming for. The problem? What you and a few others find fun isn't what the majority of players find fun. The needs of many... You can paint it anyway you want in your head, but at the end of the day, its just two people with different opinions and only one of these groups run around with an elitist attitude attempting to put down people with an opposing viewpoint.

Okay, before the PvE / PvP split (Which was a very long time period before implimentation), why did the minority instead of the majority decide on skill balances?

Changing the direction of a game's original design is bad. It's as simple as that.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 14:13 - 482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

form your perspective it probably is, but for ANet it probably it isn't, thay don't consider pve skills as atrocieities but as patch up issues to unbalancend content .

That is exactly why this thread is created: Why doesn't ANet consider these PvE skills as atrocities? Was it a huge lack of forethought? A general "uncare" for the PvE game or for GW?

And what is considered "unbalanced" content? While there are a few issues and mainly regarding the Mesmer class (who isn't voided entirely useless, you know), I'm not entirely sure what else was considered "unbalanced".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

You somehow believe that a game should be more than just for enjoyment. If speaking on behalf of themselves so they can enjoy said game, which itself is making the game fun to them, how is that not speaking on behalf of the game in their eyes?

The thing is that the game used to provide more than just enjoyment. Guild Wars was still selling just fine before all the "need" to add all of these "desperately asked for" additions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

The problem? What you and a few others find fun isn't what the majority of players find fun.

As stated several times, by myself included, we have no idea what the "majority" of players find fun. But what I do know, and what I just mentioned above, is that it seemed as those the majority of players were having much "fun" before tossing the idea of "skill>time" over the bridge.

And another thought: If PvE skills plus UB and the like were catered to the "majority" of players, they wouldn't be based off of a title.

Lopezus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

MDD

D/W

13 Jun 2008 at 14:28 - 483

Quote:

That is exactly why this thread is created: Why doesn't ANet consider these PvE skills as atrocities? Was it a huge lack of forethought? A general "uncare" for the PvE game or for GW?

And what is considered "unbalanced" content? While there are a few issues and mainly regarding the Mesmer class (who isn't voided entirely useless, you know), I'm not entirely sure what else was considered "unbalanced".

ow c'mon that's the same argumentation you are not agreeing with when people say : "UB ? -atrocity, nonsesse it has only few issues , or unbalanced ! - hardly, i don't so any imbalance" etc. so no double standards plz.

And how come you so agreed with Avarre post when it seems you didn't read it at all. Avarre states quite clearly that Anet changes to Gw goes way beyond pve skills. And about mesmers in pve there is very interesting post created by Avarre himself again worth reading.http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ghlight=avarre

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

13 Jun 2008 at 14:38 - 484

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

3. Guild Wars 3 starts off "good" and stays "good", but the perception of the players change. And instead of letting the game go, they cry a river.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous your statement is?

The game and its goals changed. There is no doubt about that....it is a FACT. There is no perception involved in that. Whether or not the change was good is the opinion part.

For those of us who think the change was bad, I don't see how we can intelligently believe that Guild Wars 2 will be any different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

They provide a service which you pay for. If you're happy about the service, end of transaction.

Big difference here. What happened in this situation was that they provided a service that many people paid for and enjoyed, but then they completely changed the service to something else after they took the customers money. Essentially they said "here buy this great concept of a game", and then took your money and changed the concept.

Normally people wouldn't care as much because online games do change, but in this case they completely changed the core ideas and goals of the game. That absolutely SHOULD make a lot of people upset, especially when many of them are huge fans of their game and its original ideas.

Also, a really bad misconception needs to be cleared up. There is an idea that if Anet stuck to their original vision, they wouldn't have any players. The idea is that Anet had to mold their game regardless of their vision. I am here to tell you that this is a load of bull on so many levels. I could make another page long post about it, but I'm too lazy at the moment. I might have to if it comes up again.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 14:42 - 485

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

ow c'mon that's the same argumentation you are not agreeing with when people say : "UB ? -atrocity, nonsesse it has only few issues , or unbalanced ! - hardly, i don't so any imbalance" etc. so no double standards plz.

It's irrefutable: Ursan Blessing, along with most of these PvE skills, are overpowered. If not, this thread would not exist. It's about *why* these overpowered skills are existing in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

And how come you so agreed with Avarre post when it seems you didn't read it at all. Avarre states quite clearly that Anet changes to Gw goes way beyond pve skills.

PvE skills were released on June 15th, 2007. Prior to that, Guild Wars had sold 3 million copies (and on Aug. 21 they would have reached 3 million). The point is that there wasn't any need to complete "simplify" the game via PvE skills and the like. You could go back to saying how mesmers were in a bit of trouble, but again that does *not* excuse abandoning balance for the entire game.

Guild Wars PvE has always been in a need of "touching up". PvE skills, along with the titles that come with them, have been the strongest and most gamebreaking concern. The other things, most of which have been fixed, just do not compare.

Lopezus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

MDD

D/W

13 Jun 2008 at 15:03 - 486

Quote:

It's irrefutable: Ursan Blessing, along with most of these PvE skills, are overpowered. If not, this thread would not exist. It's about *why* these overpowered skills are existing in the first place.

The answer is clear in Avarre post so you would have know it if you have read it. It's very simple because game pve content was broken and moved far away from original being skill>time, so patching it up with pve skills was a way to go without : A : touching - at least balanced to a degree pvp content, B: rewriting whole game.
Averre question lies in what caused devs to change the original concept of the game in the first place.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 15:09 - 487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

The answer is clear in Avarre post so you would have know it if you have read it. It's very simple because game pve content was broken and moved far away from original being skill>time, so patching it up with pve skills was a way to go without : A : touching - at least balanced to a degree pvp content, B: rewriting whole game.
Averre question lies in what caused devs to change the original concept of the game in the first place.

Unless Avarre came in here and clarified, I'm pretty sure that's not why he's mainly upset in this letter.

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

13 Jun 2008 at 15:13 - 488

While I do completely agree with Bryant Again's perspective, we can only objectively be sure of one thing:

Guild Wars today is no longer the game it was in 2005 — 2006.

Whether this is a good or a bad thing is entirely personal.

To me, it's a bad thing, as all but a handful of my friends have stopped playing.

All of them have done so for the same reason: the game has strayed too much from its original premise.

Those who remain are in my situation, living off a fool's hope that this game will once again (weighing my words very carefully here) "resemble the old Guild Wars".

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 15:31 - 489

While that is definitely true, Lagg, it's the fact that Guild Wars is no longer unique that's depressing.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

13 Jun 2008 at 15:38 - 490

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The thing is that the game used to provide more than just enjoyment. Guild Wars was still selling just fine before all the "need" to add all of these "desperately asked for" additions.

What? Pray tell, what was it providing past enjoyment?

Quote:

As stated several times, by myself included, we have no idea what the "majority" of players find fun. But what I do know, and what I just mentioned above, is that it seemed as those the majority of players were having much "fun" before tossing the idea of "skill>time" over the bridge.

Here's a hint: The same ten or so people seem to have an awful lot of time to complain on the forums all day about the need for PvE nerfs while how many thousands of people are actually in game, enjoying it. Hmm.. I wonder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Big difference here. What happened in this situation was that they provided a service that many people paid for and enjoyed, but then they completely changed the service to something else after they took the customers money. Essentially they said "here buy this great concept of a game", and then took your money and changed the concept. .

You paid how much for the game? And how many hours have you logged? Safe to say, unless you purchased the game in the last five months that you've had your money's worth. Don't assume a game should remain true to it's own vision, or your's, indefinitely. Game's change. Move to another or wait until it fits what you're looking for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Okay, before the PvE / PvP split (Which was a very long time period before implimentation), why did the minority instead of the majority decide on skill balances?

If that were so, and you'd be hard pressed to convince me that they nerfed PvE skills because of GWGuru thread complaints, then Apparently Anet wasn't impressed by the direction their opinions were pushing the game. Thats more than obvious by the last few updates and huge buffs to previously nerfed skills.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 15:44 - 491

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

What? Pray tell, what was it providing past enjoyment?

Challenge, difficulty, and uniquity (I don't think that's a word, though). With PvE skills, Guild Wars lost all three.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Here's a hint: The same ten or so people seem to have an awful lot of time to complain on the forums all day about the need for PvE nerfs while how many thousands of people are actually in game, enjoying it. Hmm.. I wonder.

The different ten or so people were complaining about the game being "too hard" when they could've switched to Normal mode, and yet ANet changed the game for them. You're still going to have a hard time telling me that these PvE skills are for the "majority" when they're tied to titles that take a lengthy time to max out.

Not only that, I wonder how many thousands were enjoying the game *before* all of this happened?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

You paid how much for the game? And how many hours have you logged? Safe to say, unless you purchased the game in the last five months that you've had your money's worth. Don't assume a game should remain true to it's own vision, or your's, indefinitely. Game's change. Move to another or wait until it fits what you're looking for.

The point of this thread is to show that Guild Wars changed for the *worse*. By abandoning the concept of "skill > time", it abandoned what made it unique and different from your standard MMO grind game. Was it bad that it was unique? No, since it sold 3 million copies in the mean time.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 15:49 - 492

Quote:

Really? They provide a service which you pay for. If you're happy about the service, end of transaction. If you want to play politics, go right ahead but don't be surprised when most people don't care.

Key section right thar.

I think it's pretty obvious most of the people posting in this thread, aren't.

It isn't politics, it's basic consume-producer relationship law. Even if I am happy with the service, that isn't the end of the transaction, I still get to voice my opinions on how uber the product is.

Quote:

You paid how much for the game? And how many hours have you logged? Safe to say, unless you purchased the game in the last five months that you've had your money's worth. Don't assume a game should remain true to it's own vision, or your's, indefinitely. Game's change. Move to another or wait until it fits what you're looking for.

Don't assume people get their monies worth.

And I think that's pretty cool telling people to abandon the game, you must really dislike ArenaNet, eh? Telling people to abandon their product is basically telling them to not come back to their other products, which is basically telling people to not give them money.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

13 Jun 2008 at 15:50 - 493

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Challenge, difficulty, and uniquity (I don't think that's a word, though). With PvE skills, Guild Wars lost all three.

Uniqueness. But in the end, all of those are a means to enjoyment. Some people find all those things enjoyable, others don't. I personally know guildmates who don't prefer the difficulty, therefor they use skills such as Ursan. Would they still be around without the skill? Who knows. Do I prefer they actually learn why they're having difficulties? Sure, but thats not for me to decide.

Quote:

The different ten or so people were complaining about the game being "too hard" when they could've switched to Normal mode, and yet ANet changed the game for them. You're still going to have a hard time telling me that these PvE skills are for the "majority" when they're tied to titles that take a lengthy time to max out.

I got a guildie to r8 Norn in a day and a half. It doesn't take long.

Quote:

Not only that, I wonder how many thousands were enjoying the game *before* all of this happened?

Theres no connection. People move on from games, GW is no different. Thats along the lines of saying "wonder how many people enjoyed life here before the civil war", because its natural for a game's population to die off, but their decisions determine whether it's rebuilt.

Quote:

The point of this thread is to show that Guild Wars changed for the *worse*.

Completely your opinion and yet, again, you speak it as if it were a solid fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Key section right thar.

I think it's pretty obvious most of the people posting in this thread, aren't.

It isn't politics, it's basic consume-producer relationship law. Even if I am happy with the service, that isn't the end of the transaction, I still get to voice my opinions on how uber the product is.

Don't assume people get their monies worth.

And I think that's pretty cool telling people to abandon the game, you must really like ArenaNet, eh?

Nice try. If you don't enjoy a game, why stick around? ArenaNet already has your money, so how would that adversely effect them? In the end, the people that aren't happy are just drops in a hurricane as there are thousands of people too busy enjoying the game to sit around complaining on a forum all day.

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

13 Jun 2008 at 15:52 - 494

Golgotha, Anet pretty much went and did a SWG on us. But because most people choose not to complain and "whine" about it, it doesn't get fixed or change. Maybe they feel they don't have the power? I'm not sure, but if Anet knows more people don't like what's going on than those that do, they'll fix it.

This game wasn't suppose to be a PvE based game and that seems to be what it has become. As for PvE becoming easier...there isn't anything you can do about that. If you don't add grind, it gets boring because of the lack of content, they can't keep adding new areas they don't have the money nor do they have the manpower. So they add grind in the form of vanity and titles to keep you playing the game. But when people see that grind in there they get all bent out of shape too, so you cannot win with PvE.

Hence why ANet should have just stuck with shallow PvE with no titles (the vanity grind was always there) and focused on PvP and the majority that plays the game now would never be playing and we'd all be happy.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 16:02 - 495

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Uniqueness. But in the end, all of those are a means to enjoyment. Some people find all those things enjoyable, others don't. I personally know guildmates who don't prefer the difficulty, therefor they use skills such as Ursan. Would they still be around without the skill? Who knows. Do I prefer they actually learn why they're having difficulties? Sure, but thats not for me to decide.

If they're having trouble, then why not switch into Normal mode? That's all that this "unskilled" and vocal minority had to do. But instead of being content that the game doesn't have to be difficult for them, ANet saw it fit (for some reason) to dumb down Hard Mode, too.

I don't mind people having difficulty with a game. I don't like locking people out of content because of the difficulty. But I have problems with lowering the hardest challenges in the game to be as easy as the easier challenges when all content could be seen on the lower setting. It would be like God of War having God Mode be as easy as Normal mode, or Nightmare mode in Doom being as easy as "I'm Too Young To Die" (easiest setting).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I got a guildie to r8 Norn in a day and a half. It doesn't take long.

And you and your guildie represent everyone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Theres no connection. People move on from games, GW is no different. Thats along the lines of saying "wonder how many people enjoyed life here before the civil war", because its natural for a game's population to die off, but their decisions determine whether it's rebuilt.

People are using the "it helps the majority of casual players" argument as a means to allow overpowered skills. If it doesn't matter, then why do the overpowered skills exist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Completely your opinion and yet, again, you speak it as if it were a solid fact.

And like facts, I provide evidence. The core piece of evidence being that the one thing that sold Guild Wars next to being "free to play" - skill > time - is no longer present in the game. It's hard to not consider this a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Nice try. If you don't enjoy a game, why stick around? ArenaNet already has your money, so how would that adversely effect them? In the end, the people that aren't happy are just drops in a hurricane as there are thousands of people too busy enjoying the game to sit around complaining on a forum all day.

Interestingly enough, the exact same thing could've been said to those who complained about the game being "too hard". Why did ANet listen to them, another minority, when the majority was off enjoying the game?

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 16:04 - 496

Quote:

Nice try. If you don't enjoy a game, why stick around? ArenaNet already has your money, so how would that adversely effect them? In the end, the people that aren't happy are just drops in a hurricane as there are thousands of people too busy enjoying the game to sit around complaining on a forum all day.

Because they have other products? It isn't as easy as "we have your money now go away".

If say, idk, a ton of Snicker bars wound up poisoned and killed a ton of people, you'd be pretty adverse to buying other products from them, yes? Well, while Guild Wars hasn't killed anybody, receiving a substandard product from a company, does produce a negative effect on people with said producer's other products.

People stick around because they have that right as a consumer. You have no right to take that away, or attempt to take that way. Doing such is not only blatant fanboyism (h...harming my precious...game....), but it's completely idiotic and goes against the basic structure of a business relationship between a consumer and the producer.

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

13 Jun 2008 at 16:14 - 497

Ok I'll give another example of terrible game design: Getting max Kurzick title.

First of all it's tempting to get the title for a few reasons:
1) it pumps up the pve kurzick skills
2) it helps getting GWAMM
3) at one point a veteran player needs new goals when all the others are done

Now there are a few ways to get the title:
1) playing pvp -> chance of loosing games
2) doing hfff runs -> fastest way
3) playing pve with blessings from shrines

The title is set at 5 million points, this is extremely high. So doing hfff runs is the best way to get it over with. So I'm doing these runs lately and almost nothing else. It's boring grind.

How can you call this a good thing? It doesn't reflect skill, it will only say I was masochistic enough to do the grind. It will get me better skills than the average player can use, cause the average player doesn't have the time to do this grind. On top I will net about 3 million in gold doing the quest over and over again. This is an amount of gold the average player can only dream about.

conclusion: the title will not increase my learning curve by a lot, it's an example of time > skill, which is not good for the veteran player nor the average player.

You can say don't go for the title, but that's not the issue. We're talking about game mechanics here.

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 16:29 - 498

Jesus Christ that is one badly written piece. All the time the author is trying to convince that he doesn't mean to put down new players or players who are using skills he doesn't personally like. Then burbs out crap like this:

"New people in the game are great, but you are not supposed to have the same level of success as me if you just picked this game up."
"Most of the old players for PvE who were revolutionary or skillful are gone."

And another thing, try to think what kind of game you would like to play. So you made a mistake worth $150+ by buying a game that didn't meet your expectations and were made by amateurs. SH*T HAPPENS DUDE and it could be a lot worse. Servers shutting down because of lack of income. I think it's about time to move on.

Why are you using failing game as an example what Guild Wars should be?

"Look at Fury – a game that only existed before it was actually released, and how it drew a lot of the Guild Wars scene to it. It provided what you stopped providing, and offered the hope that maybe this time, it will be a game that rewards its players. Even though Fury was buggy, had brutal system requirements, and never even survived release, it attracted players, and a lot of notable ones at that."

- Didn't ANET do exactly like Auran Games did with Fury? Made false promises and ended up in dirt?

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

13 Jun 2008 at 16:35 - 499

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Ok I'll give another example of terrible game design: Getting max Kurzick title.

First of all it's tempting to get the title for a few reasons:
1) it pumps up the pve kurzick skills
2) it helps getting GWAMM
3) at one point a veteran player needs new goals when all the others are done

Now there are a few ways to get the title:
1) playing pvp -> chance of loosing games
2) doing hfff runs -> fastest way
3) playing pve with blessings from shrines

The title is set at 5 million, this is extremely high. So doing hfff runs is the best way to get it over with. So I'm doing these runs lately and almost nothing else. It's boring grind.

How can you call this a good thing? It doesn't reflect skill, it will only say I was masochistic enough to do the grind. It will get me better skills than the average player can use, cause the average player doesn't have the time to do this grind. On top I will net about 3 million in gold doing the quest over and over again. This is an amount of gold the average player can only dream about.

conclusion: the title will not increase my learning curve by a lot, it's an example of time > skill, which is not good for the veteran player nor the average player.

You can say don't go for the title, but that's not the issue. We're talking about game mechanics here.

if you hate it so much why are you doing it? proof your skill is > time by not doing Hfff and still able to get the 5mil faction in the shortest time possible, challenging enough for ya? huh?

Come to think of it (IMHO), "activities like HFFF" is exactly why Arena Net has come up with PvE skills.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

13 Jun 2008 at 16:39 - 500

Quote:

The core piece of evidence being that the one thing that sold Guild Wars next to being "free to play" - skill > time

Sorry, but, that's speculation once again you can't prove. You DO NOT HAVE THE INFORMATION you CAN'T GET THAT INFORMATION. Therefore that statement is invalid. But, it IS valid that a lot more people wanted the easy game we have now than the hard nobody but the elite could get to before game. Guild Wars sold for MANY reasons, not just a reason to push your agenda to the forefront. I didn't buy GW because it was skill>time and I'm sure others didn't buy it because of that either, but, I have no statistics therefore it's invalid to say GW sold because of my reason just like it's invalid for you to say GW sold because of skill>time without documentation it's invalid. And you can't provide any bud. Some may have bought it because it was skill>time, but, you can't prove anymore than that, thus it has no relevance to the discussion.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 16:41 - 501

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

And another thing, try to think what kind of game you would like to play. So you made a mistake worth $150+ by buying a game that didn't meet your expectations and were made by amateurs. SH*T HAPPENS DUDE and it could be a lot worse. Servers shutting down because of lack of income. I think it's about time to move on.

The OP is not talking about "revolutionary/skilled people leaving because the game turned out to be bad", it's that the game was turned into "something bad". It's not about a game not exceeding your expectations, it's about a game meeting them then later trashing them due to changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

But, it IS valid that a lot more people wanted the easy game we have now than the hard nobody but the elite could get to before game.

That's just as if not more invalid than my previous statement.

And "hard but elite"? Unless I recall, only about 5 areas of the game were considered "elite", and that was on Hard Mode.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

13 Jun 2008 at 16:52 - 502

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

The reason with Airtsu's statement is true and yours is unsubstantiated is based on the last statement you made above. Surmising that the majority of the playerbase enjoys the overpowered skills is just as faulty as those who state that a majority of the playerbase does not like the overpowered skills.

Since we unfortunately do not have access to that type of information (and I find it highly unlikely that A-Net does as well), all we can do is put forth our own opinions and let A-Net's developers (if they are getting the feedback via Regina) evaluate whether their design decisions are "good for the game" or not.

Dismissing forum opinions simply because "well, we ain't be knowin' whether everyone feels that way" is flawed logic, since none of us know whether those opinions are widely held or not.

Well then you best go back to school and learn computer science then because Anet can pull so much data information out of their system it would make your eyes swim. They can create spreadsheets of unlimited data as to population, peak population times, area population, and the list goes on an on bud. Like I said THEY KNOW what's going on in ther game, YOU only know your little tiny microscopic portion of it. They aren't making these changes based on POT LUCK or RANDOM DRAW out of a hat, they are making these changes based on what they SEE WITHIN the GAME as I've stated time and time again. What is going on in the game now IS POPULAR and when it becomes unpopular then perhaps you will see some changes in other directions. But, I'm pretty sure GW is going to keep changing in the easier and more fun direction than trying to make it HARD or CHALLENGING for a handful of complainers and whinners on a forum.

Quote:

And "hard but elite"? Unless I recall, only about 5 areas of the game were considered "elite", and that was on Hard Mode.

Once again you're speculating what YOU think/feel is HARD. You are not the sole person who plays this game. Everyone has DIFFERENT difficulty levels and casual players certainly don't want to contend with 24hr sitto's of hard content or even 4 hour content they don't have the time. Thus, make it faster and easier and it's more fun for the casual player. That's what Anet is about and really always has been the CASUAL player go back and read the first box that is their top priority not skill>time that was just mentioned and btw it was never "promised" in EVERY chapter or thing they did if you go back and read the box and the interviews...

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 17:01 - 503

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The OP is not talking about "revolutionary/skilled people leaving because the game turned out to be bad", it's that the game was turned into "something bad". It's not about a game not exceeding your expectations, it's about a game meeting them then later trashing them due to changes.

- Okay, I can understand that. ANET had different plans for PvP. Their initial revenue couldn't sustain continued tournaments because of lack of interest by majority of paying customers. Makes perfect sense? I don't know about PvE, feels like there's some kid having a laugh at the expense of PvE folk. But again, sh*t happens and if the product doesn't satisfy one's personal tastes, one ought to turn to competitors on the market. Simple as that. I think the players are ones who are trying to milk a dying cow here...

What did Fury do? I recall players swearing to leave GW for good and go play Fury. Turns out Fury flopped so badly the game doesn't even exist anymore. Let's see if Conan has more than just pretty graphic engine...

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

13 Jun 2008 at 17:12 - 504

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

if you hate it so much why are you doing it? proof your skill is > time by not doing Hfff and still able to get the 5mil faction in the shortest time possible, challenging enough for ya? huh?

Is this all you can say about it? You don't look at the root of the problem I present in my example.

A master will use the principle of getting something done with the least effort, which would normally require skill. You can never get as much points in the same time playing pvp even if you win every game. Why in the hell would I lenghthen this process? To proove my skill or to get a challenge? Interesting.

Thanks for your enlightening advice, but I'll skip it.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 17:16 - 505

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

But, I'm pretty sure GW is going to keep changing in the easier and more fun direction than trying to make it HARD or CHALLENGING for a handful of complainers and whinners on a forum.

You can only get so much from computers. While they can show what areas are popular etc, they don't provide the most valuable asset you can get from your players: input. Computers show nothing but data and numbers. They don't show how a person feels about a certain area, how a person feels about X and Y skill, and so on.

I'd like to imagine that ANet is able to see how popular certain areas are and say things like "wow, these elite areas aren't too popular, let's do something about that". But if they were able to gather that kind of data then we shouldn't be seeing districts full of bots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Everyone has DIFFERENT difficulty levels and casual players certainly don't want to contend with 24hr sitto's of hard content or even 4 hour content they don't have the time.

Okay then. They can play on Normal mode. Why do they need the harder difficulties easier, as well? ANet didn't have to cater solely to one group of players. They could've just provided further options without sacrificing the challenge and meaning of difficulty.

And again: it's not for the casual player. See how the PvE skills are linked to titles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

What did Fury do? I recall players swearing to leave GW for good and go play Fury. Turns out Fury flopped so badly the game doesn't even exist anymore. Let's see if Conan has more than just pretty graphic engine...

When Fury was mentioned in the OP, it was the fact that PvP players (high-end included) were willing to move from Guild Wars to it instantly. This was a result of many, many problems which wouldn't be entirely appropriate for this thread.

Regarding AoC: So far a lot of things are bugged, and most of the GW players I've known here that moved to it have unsubscribed. Combat is pretty nice, but things become your standard run-of-the-mill MMO after that.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

13 Jun 2008 at 17:20 - 506

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Is this all you can say about it? You don't look at the root of the problem I present in my example.

A master will use the principle of getting something done with the least effort, which would normally require skill. You can never get as much points in the same time playing pvp even if you win every game. Why in the hell would I lenghthen this process? To proove my skill or to get a challenge? Interesting.

Thanks for your enlightening advice, but I'll skip it.

Then stop making it Arena Net's faults. the first person that comes up with HFFF is the master, the one that follow isn't

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 17:21 - 507

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

A master will use the principle of getting something done with the least effort, which would normally require skill.

- Knowing how to get something with least effort is this skill. If you think running around nubbyland capping NPC-held points equates skill... you have pretty weird way of thinking. Now the really good player would devise an automated, undetectable program for farming those Kurzick points, much like Diablo II players made bots for farming bosses in order to get items without their actual input. If you think Kurzick title is stupid or that skills are tied to it are stupid, don't pursue them. But don't come telling us that easy things should be challenging, when they never were.

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

13 Jun 2008 at 17:25 - 508

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Then stop making it Arena Net's faults. the first person that comes up with HFFF is the master, the one that follow isn't

Did you make the change to the mechanics? Don't think so. Who did? ANet. Ta da!

I was talking about the principle to get something done with the least effort. I was not talking about the person who invented hfff run on itself. Also you can master something even thougfh the first one was the original master. Another person can become a master too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Knowing how to get something with least effort is this skill. If you think running around nubbyland capping NPC-held points equates skill... you have pretty weird way of thinking. Now the really good player would devise an automated, undetectable program for farming those Kurzick points, much like Diablo II players made bots for farming bosses in order to get items without their actual input. If you think Kurzick title is stupid or that skills are tied to it are stupid, don't pursue them. But don't come telling us that easy things should be challenging, when they never were.

Are you promoting bots? You even say a good player should use an undetectable program. Sorry not my style and you just lost a lot of credibility by saying things like that. Secondly it's exactly what you say about capping npc points and seeing this as skill that I bring in the spotlight. It's time > skill. which you proove in your post.

Finally I question the mechanisms Anet implemented, it has nothing to do with easy things that should be challenging as you call it. I'm here to advocate depth and the fun factor of the game and for as many different player groups as possible.

Rocky Raccoon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Massachusetts, USA

Guardians of the Cosmos

R/Mo

13 Jun 2008 at 17:30 - 509

Two relevant quotes and I am done with this post.

"If men would consider not so much wherein they differ, as wherein they agree, there would be far less of uncharitableness and angry feeling."
Joseph Addison

"Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute."
Josh Billings

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 17:36 - 510

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

"Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute."
Josh Billings

The problem with that is that the majority is always going to be silent.

romeus petrus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

Urgoz Warren

Legion of Doom [LOD] Home of PWNZILLA http://PWNZILLA.guildlaunch.com

13 Jun 2008 at 17:42 - 511

/signed

Not that I think it will make a difference...

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

13 Jun 2008 at 18:40 - 512

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Are you promoting bots? You even say a good player should use an undetectable program.

- If you consider farming ten million kurzick points a feat of skill then suit yourself. Whether you yourself sit in front of your computer for hundreds of hours doing easy, monotonous, repetitive activity or let a simple script handle it in this age of computers is irrelevant in terms of result.

Nothing changes the fact that the title caps at 10 million points. Ten million points is grind no matter how you look at it. If you don't like grind (I don't) then stop doing it and look for other games, where replay value isn't tied to something as dull as this. You seem to think - like OP - that just pointing out all stupid things will make difference, but this is false. It's up to ANET to build their way to success or seek their place among mediocre MMOs. If they make bad decisions it *will* show up in sales.

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

13 Jun 2008 at 19:02 - 513

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- If you consider farming ten million kurzick points a feat of skill then suit yourself. Whether you yourself sit in front of your computer for hundreds of hours doing easy, monotonous, repetitive activity or let a simple script handle it in this age of computers is irrelevant in terms of result.

Nothing changes the fact that the title caps at 10 million points. Ten million points is grind no matter how you look at it. If you don't like grind (I don't) then stop doing it and look for other games, where replay value isn't tied to something as dull as this. You seem to think - like OP - that just pointing out all stupid things will make difference, but this is false. It's up to ANET to build their way to success or seek their place among mediocre MMOs. If they make bad decisions it *will* show up in sales.

You still don't get it do you? I think it's the contrary of skill. The point is we shouldn't use bots or grind, we should play and have fun. And once again, there are no other games with the unique features of gw so you can throw that argument away until you can name me a game with the unique things I listed a few pages ago and I'm outta here. I love this game, but there's always room for improvement.

I don't only point out questionable implementations, I also give feedback on the good things, illustrated in another post somewhere in this thread where I give the example of the deldrimor weapons being very good, pleasing most player groups versus the pig and celestial pig implementation which got a lot of heat. I also gave my view how they could have implemented the pig thing pleasing most player groups, which I did back then too.

Stupid things are there to learn from, to become better. It's in Anet's best interest if they get positive and negative feedback. What they do with it is their choice.

the_jos

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hard Mode Legion [HML]

N/

13 Jun 2008 at 19:06 - 514

Quote:

The problem with that is that the majority is always going to be silent.

True and it creates an interesting situation.
Do the people who speak represent that majority or don't they?

I think that the players here on the various forums do NOT represent the entire GW community and don't even get close to it.
People using fan forums are on average more involved in the game then the average player.

I think the majority of players does not really care.
They use the tools available to them in the game and perhaps learn how to use 'outside' tools like /wiki.
But most probably they just play their game the way they want and are happy doing so.
Not being aware of the 'value' of the elite areas, probably not even being aware of Hard Mode.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

13 Jun 2008 at 19:14 - 515

Quote:

Do the people who speak represent that majority or don't they?

I think that the players here on the various forums do NOT represent the entire GW community and don't even get close to it.

Quoted again for truth and exactly correct. The people on forums don't even represent 1% of the whole though they like to think they do and that they get things done.

You all really need to look at this in a perspective if you had your own business would you go changing things for a handful of people who always come into your store complaining? No you wouldn't or anyone in their right mind wouldn't. Now if every other customer complained that your store stinks then you'd probably lift your head up and take a smell of it. But, nah, I've run my own business in my lifetime and you just have to overlook the handful that are just complainers and always want things their way and no other way. I'd always get the jackarses who complained because I moved the store products around rearranged the store you know you've seen other stores do it. Well there's a reason behind that that the complainers don't even realize or care about it's to get customers to look around the WHOLE store again not just automatically goto their favorite isle or shelf.

Works in real life and works in GW and for Anet as well.

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

13 Jun 2008 at 19:26 - 516

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Quoted again for truth and exactly correct. The people on forums don't even represent 1% of the whole though they like to think they do and that they get things done.

Sigh you're so very hypocritical. You tell us that we have no facts and then you come out with the 1%, that's just as baseless as anyone else's "facts" in this thread. The people on the forums come from different groups of players, so you can have 20 people on the forum in that group and 300,000 in that group on the game that don't bother with forums. Those 20 are still representing that 300,000 because they have the same playstyle in general.

Quote:

You all really need to look at this in a perspective if you had your own business would you go changing things for a handful of people who always come into your store complaining? No you wouldn't or anyone in their right mind wouldn't.

That's exactly what ANet did with their idea breaking updates. Because they don't know players want it easier without hearing some complaints.

Those numbers I threw out in the first paragraph were example by the way.

Cale Roughstar

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Canada

Guy In Real Life [GIRL]

W/E

13 Jun 2008 at 19:40 - 517

I don't see why everyone keeps putting out the idea that Guru users are not indicative of the community as a whole. I like to compare guru to the government of any democratic country. Guru, like to government is a place where a small percentage of people from all facets of the game come to discuss the game. To say that there are not enough users to represent the community as a whole is bullcrap. Here in Canada, we have just over 300 representatives in the federal government, representing over 35 million people. That is a lot less than 1%. The users of guru represent the players of GW. To say that a full census is required is stupid and we would still be in the dark ages if a referendum was held for every single decision or policy.

Some people...

the_jos

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hard Mode Legion [HML]

N/

13 Jun 2008 at 19:45 - 518

Quote:

The people on the forums come from different groups of players, so you can have 20 people on the forum in that group and 300,000 in that group on the game that don't bother with forums.

That would be true if you would take a true statistical way of measuring, but that's not the case with fan forums.
People on forums are different from the silent players, because they are more involved.

It's like asking people from a neighbourhood-watch if they feel their neighbourhood is safe.
You might get the answer you are looking for but it's sure that they don't represent the entire community.

Lopezus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

MDD

D/W

13 Jun 2008 at 19:52 - 519

Quote:

The users of guru represent the players of GW

i hope you only mean statisticly because if not then that is most overblown statement of guru importance i've ever read. Players didn't ask to be reperesented by guru users, what's more there is no need for such self-proclaimed representation.

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

13 Jun 2008 at 19:55 - 520

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

That would be true if you would take a true statistical way of measuring, but that's not the case with fan forums.
People on forums are different from the silent players, because they are more involved.

It's like asking people from a neighbourhood-watch if they feel their neighbourhood is safe.
You might get the answer you are looking for but it's sure that they don't represent the entire community.

I said their playstyle in general is the same and that's why those 20 on the forums can represent them. It doesn't matter if those 300,000 are silent. And I'm not going to believe for one instant we have over 10,000 different playstyles with the 500k people or so we have playing. Hell I don't think I've heard of more than 20 different playstyles. So there will be people on this forum that have the same playstyle in general as many people in the game.

And I was saying it to bat against the 1% that Sonya threw out. I don't hold my statement as fact but it's a hell of a lot more than 1%.