Update - Thursday June 12

why does everyone always cite prot bond as a nerf due to pve overpoweredness?
it was nerfed because it crashed servers.

That and because Erenewal eles could easily maintain it for insane protection in PvP.

It was simply broken skill everywhere.

still not a nerf due to pve.

Nah, just watching too much Colbert.

What I am telling you is that your arguments aren't enough to convince me to back down from my stance that although Ursan isn't good for the game, it does NOT warrant a change, because the game in it's current state would be worse without it then it is with it. If the game were to be modified to reflect the loss of Ursan, then that's a different story.
Ursan was added the negate the moronic choices added before Ursan.
With Ursan gone - those moronic choices are still in place.

Isn't that great?
That means you have a HUGE selection of games to choose from!
The reason why I support idiots in PvE is simple.
The same reason why I support godly players.
Body count.
I don't need to play with people - but I need people to keep the servers I play GW on running.
That's my main reason why I am thinking of others.
As soon as I stop playing - I couldn't care less about anyone else.

But since A.Net IS the subject in charge - you want the answer to that question from them.
My guess - money.
2 million morons is better then 100k godly players.
(Of course the numbers are COMPLETELY made up - but nobody is going to convince me that there are more godly players out there then there are bad ones!)

Spirit Bond was nerfed for PvE, no?

I can understand, to a point why they haven't nerfed Ursan. It let's everybody participate in high level PvE play, and it promotes variety in professions. Not to mention you still have to grind out a title and actually play the storyline to a point to attain the skill and increase it's power.

It's still broken, but it doesn't surprise me that it didn't get nerfed.

SF should be nerfed, however.

This is one of the better-written Urrsan rants that I've read. But there's a major flaw in your analogy. GW PvE is not a tournament. It is not competitive. There is no leader board.

I agree that Ursan drains the game of all depth for many people who are not me. But I'm not sure if or how that translates into a problem for me.

i pretty much said this already

Wow, all threads lead to Ursan don't they? :-\

apparantly
12chars

did [wastrel's worry] just get buffed as a boss killer?

I would also remove the enraged skill the most DoA monsters use , and increase the drops of HM elite areas further to motivate people to do HM.
But that brings another issue. From the 10 professions we have , about half are popular in groups.

I used to use that skill for boss farming , but i didn't get much tomes as I hoped , but this buff could motivate me to leave the chaos plains as a farming spot.

When I did the rough draft of my post in notepad, I saved it as 'Ursan Rant'. I'm nothing if not honest.

Perhaps the analogy didn't carry across as well I as would have wished. I mean PvE is competitive only in as much as we're all doing the same thing as each other working towards essentially the same ends (quests, missions, xp, loot). I'll try a slightly more direct approach:

Nothing anyone else does ruins my game of Guild Wars. It may ruin my metagame, if I get into the economy side of the game, but the game as-written is all mine to play as I like (God bless Heroes and Henchies!).

I don't dislike Ursan because it ruins MY game. I dislike Ursan because it ruins THE game - the PvE side, anyway. The PvE game used to be about taking the skills for your professions and selecting a complimentary handful of them as dictated by the challenge you would be facing. Certain builds proved effective in many scenarios, and many players had skills and styles that they favoured.

Now it's easier - not *better* or *necessary*, just *easier* - to stick one skill on there and forget the others even exist. And people funnel themselves down the path of least resistance like cattle to slaughter.

Ursan stops people trying. Whilst Yoda might approve ("Do or do not - there is no try."), I miss the State of Play that encourages people to try new things. Not 'allowed' them, as it is now, but encouraged them. There's no encouragement not to be a Care Bear. There's no encouragement to experience the wealth of playing styles the game has to offer. You can do it if you want, but there's no reward for it - indeed, you'll achieve less, since Care Bearing your way to victory is cheap, painless, faster and easier.

I won't deny that my dislike of Ursan is somewhat selfishly motivated - just because I want other people to understand what a deep, multi-layered game Guild Wars is doesn't mean they have to accept it - and I'm pretty sure most other people's real concerns over Ursan are along the lines of 'it upsets me that so many people are missing so much of the game', but this is how things are. If you're not a Care Bear or a HB Monk, then you're going to have a hard time getting into a PUG.

And as an aside, do you think Ursan will continue the way it is? Of course not. There isn't a Community Rep or a Dev in ANet who isn't aware of the controvesy over Ursan - but the skill is so ubiquitous, so heavily and passionately debated in forums, that any change to it runs the risk of causing uproar across the community as a whole. We - all of us, the haters and the lovers - have made Ursan into almost a diplomatic incident. Anything ANet wants to do to the skill now has to be positioned very, very carefully to the community. But do something about it they will, of this I have no doubt.

Personally, I'm predicting the massive nerf/partial rebate approach from them (Machiavelli, how we miss you...)

Peace.

E-Drain has needed a fix badly in PvE, but unfortunately, this wasn't the fix it needed.

The entire line of energy theft skills should be reverted back to their pre-nerf forms for PvE. Back when GW debuted, E-Drain & E-Tap did a straight 1-to-1 energy theft, and as a result there were some builds with them and other pre-nerfed energy-killing skills that allowed some very specific energy denial mesmer builds to actually work in PvE! Unfortunately, all the core skills of those builds were nerfed into oblivion because they were deemed too strong in PvP.

With the split between PvE and PvP, there is no good reason not to revert those skills back to their former incarnations to allow e-denial to actually be viable again in PvE.

There we go: I totally agree, there is nothing to encourage them but...the fact that playing with a melange of complementary skills cleverly chosen to effectively combat the predicted environment (or even a nice range of skills chosen to effectively combat anything) is...fun?

Personally, I really, really like tweaking my bar to try new things, new combinations, new synergies with my teammates. Many others do too.

Play with those people: they are awesome.

Achievement in a virtual game is entirely in your own head, so doing it in a way that makes YOU feel good is all that actually matters.

I mean, effectively we can rephrase your statement to read:

It's fine: people who want the easy route to victory just want to GET there.
Let them: they don't stop you doing what you want.

In contrast, many other people actually care about the journey, not the destination. These people still exist, and they're still playing GW, so don't worry.

Simple enough:

1st year:
Main attract is skill > time, they act in this way, nerfing things that make PvE too easy, and PvP abuses. Guild wars is a fine game and the reputation goes in this sense.

2nd year:
faction, NF. Big increase in the number of players, mostly pve. Powercreep.

3rd year:
Those players are now the majority.
They are a business, they act in the way which will get them money. Making PvE easy pleases the casual gamer, you tell your friend that you are a uberpwnzorz worriar, he buys the game, and so on.
I see no other explications.

Before they fixed many things very rapidly, now it is barely once every two weeks. If something is broken in between:"meh we'll let the kids have fun for a while and we'll find an other way around to fix it partially"

Call the whinebulance I'm having an attack.

source: Did you make an Assassin just because of the perma SF farm?

you delete a char because of nerfs (wow), remake it due to BUFFS and then have the balls to complain about the buffs making pve "idiot proof"???

the madness! it spins!

Man, this topic is so stupid.

DDL, that's not how game design works. Everything you just said basically completely negates the idea of challenge & difficulty, the basic foundation that makes most (read: all) games work.

-_-

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Are you finding <INSERT GAME HERE> too hard? Did you forget to set the difficulty to <EASY>? Well there we go then.

Most single player games have a selection of difficulty modes, none of which FORCE you to do things you're unable to (unless you're really REALLY bad): you can simply make the game easier and do the stuff you can't do at a higher difficulty.

Even then, you get people who simply cannot hack it at the easiest setting (so they use cheats) or people who find even uberdeath mode easy, so they use limitations (nothing but pistols, etc etc).

Now here in GW we have what is essentially, from a PvE perspective, a single player game with optional co-op, with two fixed difficulty levels. Just two.

But we have THOUSANDS of skills, and thus millions of potential skill combinations. You can choose from an almost unlimited range of 'perceived' difficulty levels within the two fixed ones. That's...kinda the whole beauty of the thing.


Look: I don't know how to say this any more clearly. OTHER PEOPLE PLAYING THE GAME ON "EASY" DO NOT MAKE YOUR GAME EASIER. OR HARDER. OR IN FACT ANY DIFFERENT.

You basically want to stamp on other people's fun because you think they somehow demean you? That's what I'm getting, here.



Plus ultimately remember: it's not a subscription game. They don't need to keep you around if you really don't like it. The pressure is entirely different. All they need to do is keep you interested enough in GW2, and their economic model stays the course. If they start dumbing stuff down for the tail-end of GW to attract idiots who otherwise would be put off by the level of skill required..then so be it. The money they bring in will ultimately benefit you in the form of GW2, if you haven't left in elitist outrage.


At the end of the day, DO STUFF YOU ENJOY DOING. Whining about everything is just miserable and pointless.

The thing is, normal is easy, and now hard is easy. There's pretty much no difficulty at all.

It isn't whining, it's a formal complaint. Get over yourself and grow up.

EDIT:
Which probably isn't going to happen if they aren't keeping me around.

Quoted for truth.

Anet is changing the core design of the game to make more money. Sucker in a sizable base of customers who want to play a game one way (call them the first generation), then one year later, use their money to begin re-designing the game to attract a new slew of customers who want to play a completely different game (second generation).

Sure its good for business now, after all they've already got everyones money, but I bet Anet has alienated more then enough players that they will struggle to pull the same stunt for GW2 (the second generation GW players will become the first generation GW2 players; I hope they enjoy their 1 year before the shit hits the fan).

Ah, but then when everyone else is talking about how awesome it is, and how it's only a one-off payment of £30 with no subscription fee.....won't you feel tempted?

Well looks like some bosses are going get thumped in PVE

[wastrel's worry] [necrosis] spamfest 08

Never heard anything about it crashing servers. And if crashing servers was the problem why didn't they just fix the crash problem or remove the skill entirely?

And let's not forget my other comment. Can you really see someone from ANet coming out and saying "don't like it, don't use it" as their justification for not nerfing Ursan?

Awesome just changed from "skill over time" to "you can't lose", but that's basically it yeah.

I believe Mesmers can use perma SF?

In that case, Channeling and the spammage of these skills under heavy mob fire could and would be quite strong.

EDIT: I can use it because I'm awesome and can use 3 professions! /Sarcasm /Doh

Way out of context. Deleted char because there was no point in it - all farms nerfed, it was after lotus skill nerfs, so I could run a Moebius sin which was boring as hell and still is, now I remade it because I have at least one reason to make that char. Except for my Ranger, I usually delete characters that are pointless, like it was with my Warrior. Or Necro, both pre-nightfall.

You got me excited there for a moment, Tyla! Thanks for the edit!

removing the skill would have been dumb, and even if fixing the bug was easier than changing the skill a bit it was also a problem in pvp.
yes, i can see somebody from anet saying that. it is pve afterall; its noncompetitive nature allows you to use skills that arent overpowered and still win pretty easily. asking anet to nerf ursan is like asking developers to remove an optional easy mode from a game.

My point was that I don't see how changing the energy loss of the skill prevented it from crashing servers, which was your justification for the nerf. As for the PvP aspect of the skill, I can't really comment because I don't play much PvP at all, but I never really heard any complaints from anyone from this skill in PvP.

So essentially you're saying that no game that has PvE needs to have balance? I can sure bet that games (not necessarily GW) that are PvE only were still balanced by a team. To not balance skills for PvE using the excuse that they're optional would be one of the worst reasons ever. Hell, if ANet actually justified not balancing Ursan because of the optional factor, I'm sure I, along with many others would lose all confidence in them. There would be no way I would buy GW2 because why buy a game that isn't balanced.

And in case you didn't realize it, there is normal mode for the people who don't want a challenge from the game.

Its a simple fact that many people just can't seam to grasp...

PvE DOES need ballance, but the balance required in PvE is very different from that required in PvP.

For PvE each profession requires internal ballance first and formost. This means that each profession should have a multitude of builds that are all viable and eaqually effective.
This does not mean that a Fire ele should do equal damage as an earth ele, but there should be a balance so that where one excels in one direction the other takes a different path. Fire and Earth are reasonably balanced at the moment with fire higher in damage and earth providing knockdowns and armor. Now we need Air and Water to match that balance so builds from those 2 lines are viable.

Secondly professions require external balance so that no 1 single profession become completely indespencable to a party, OR so that stacking a party with multiple people using the same profession doesn't grant a large advantage over a balanced party.
External balance deals with more than just each profession but the monsters you fight throughout the game as well. Since you don't wish for a Mesmer to deal equal damage as an Elemental or a Warrior you need it to have a usefullness that warrants giving it a slot on any team. This could mean having foes that use skills that are mandatory for interupts or energy denial or even slow hexes.

This also means that to win or defeat certain bosses/dungeons/missions/ect you need multiple means. There should not be 1 skill that if its not in the party the boss can not be taken down, or that if the skill is there the boss is far to simple to destroy. What you need is 1 skill from each profession that reduces the difficulty of the foe by some reasonable margin, but is not stackable. This would mean that bring 8 different profesions would allow you to maximize your chances of overcoming the final boss as an example.

Balance in PvE is needed, but might require more than is possible at this late stage....

My hopes rest on GW2!

The original post about this from anet skill balancer

If people still want to feel that they're one of those few 'good players,' Anet needs to introduce Dead Mode.

DM - even stronger monsters/smarter ai/no pve skills allowed, better drops, new DM only area.

At this point in time, GW is a total mess.

Anet. Please build Guild Wars 2 properly so that classes can be played in PvE and PvP with multiple builds and classes are wanted for some reason or another and no single build rules an area. No single class outdoes another.

You know, balance.

Until then, I'll be playing MGS4.

mkay?

Doesn't fix the problem at all, would just be exploited anyways.

It fixes the problem of idiots farming the best drops, and ruining the economy.

There would be farming builds within the first week of its release. And we both know it.

Let's nerf [mystic regeneration] to mysticism so eles, monks and sins will stop abusing it. Also a simple and stupid consideration: what is that called?? MYSTIC regeneration, so gives more sense being a mysticism skill

^
Yeah, and all other skills with "Mystic" in the skill name.

Seriously, why would you waste that skill slot over something that can make your damage huge?

Quoted for truth.

To do something like that now is less likely to happen than me getting struck by 32 lightning bolts at the same time.

@Tender Care: that makes some sense

My idea is just to nerf all those skills, that ppl abuse of, on primary attribute, so that only that class can use them effectivly.
An example: [spell breaker] is right to be on divin favour, so only monks can use it....otherwise i would be running with spell-breaker and not [vow of silence] that is an hard skill to use in the right moment.
Same for shadow form, the avatars of dervish......can you imagine a monk with [Avatar of melandru] ??
Or a warrior in pvp with [vow of silence] and all adrenalin skill + some stances and things like that......