Nerf of Shadow Form ;

there are so many solo uw builds, anyone pissed at only this one for any "price drop" is just sad.

Rofl the beginning of this sounded like an AA-Meeting for A/E's opening speech xD

Nürf Ursan first kthxbai

To everyone asking how this affects me:

I play UW casually from time to time. It's nice to team up with a friend and bring heroes and spend a few hours clearing it. The few ectos that I get there, which used to be quite the accomplishment, are quickly becoming worth less and less. This skill is not healthy because it severely punishes people that choose not to use it. It is bad for the same reasons that Ursan Blessing is bad; it discourages other types of play.

And seriously, lets be honest... who can say that a skill that gives you unlimited immunity from all attacks and spells (less a few rare gimmicks) isn't overpowered? Seriously... at that point, its barely even playing the game. I could have a pve only skill that instantly wipes all monsters in the zone... it sure wouldn't affect you, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

There is a MAJOR difference between this UW solo build and all other UW solo builds. They farm different areas of the UW. All other UW builds solo the smites, while this area farms the chaos plains. The chaos plains has more monsters with a higher drop rate for ectos, and can be done faster.

The old UW run... 45 miniutes for 1-2 ectos.
This run, 30 miniutes for 4-5 ectos.

Once people who have done the perma SF enough to get FoW get their armor and start selling to the trader... ectos will plummet.

I can't believe people are still complaining about this. People have solo farmed the FoW and UW since the game came out, this is nothing new.

FALSE.
People have been soloing Chaos Plains long before SF buff.
Do a search you will see a video of an ele soloing it NOT using SF.
So its not just SF.

Stop whining get over it and play the GAME.

Get your facts straight, smites can be done in 15 minutes, even less when you have a good spawn.

Also, SF-sins aren't the only ones that can solo chaos plains. It's been done before, it will be done as long as people fancy ecto's.

Get over it.

False, this build can be used to farm other area's in UW, not just chaos plains... it is just another farm build, and if you think its a piece of cake to do, its not.

Many runs fail due to bad obsidian behemot spawns, bad luck running past traps or getting stuck with Charged Darknesses....

If any1 is still whining, get over it!

Indeed, my ele was soloing Chaos Planes, Bone Pits and Spawning Pools after NF came out, it's all old hat. Unlike some people might believe, farming is good for the economy (and that's why it's one of the most ancient professions IRL as well ).

This isn't only about ectos ; its also about beeing invincible ..

Whats the point of a game if you can't be hit or take dm :/

You're not invincible, have you ever even tried the run ?

Traps, PBAoE and skills (like [[shock]) still hit you and can kill you.

Just like 55 builds or terratanks, SF is a strong build as long as you evade the obvious counters.

Nope.

If a rare weapon was priced at 100k + 20e when ectos were being traded at ~5k, then the "value" of that weapon would be ~200k. Ectos were merely used as coupons for the trade.

If ectos are now trading at ~4.5k, then the weapon, still "valued" at 200k, would be priced at 100k + 22e (~199k).

Any trader that thought that the actual price was 100 + 20e, and that ectos trading at 4.5k lowered the "value" of the weapon to 190k...well, he deserves to lose that money.

In reality, the weapon is still just as out of reach to the non-farmer. And it's easier to reach for the ecto farmer, because the coupon portion of the trade is more readily attainable.

I think about the drop rate and not SF,, because its a farming build and other classes also have, sins Sf build is for chaos planes, but its OVERfarmed so i think it will be the ecto who are going nerfed in the chaos planes.

~master

I am of the mindset that other peoples items and achievments to not degrade my own achievments and the enjoyment i gain from them.

the farm that people are doing doesnt introduce gold into the market, it just decreased the value of ectos through supply and demand.

neither is it a regressive thing if ectos lose value. those with thousands stockpiled will be hit hardest and those who play casually see little or no change. FoW armour becomes a bit cheaper? so what? i love mine as much now as i did when i was paying 10k per ecto and 4k per shard. seriously i do.

the best thing about this farm is that it would be very hard if not impossible to bot because of the seemingly random position of certain enemies (and therefore traps and counters).

(any you know obby flesh eles can do the same farms too right? just slightly slower)

; wow wow wow

I'll put it this way :

It's like playing hockey without the opponents having sticks .
It's like playing soccer but the opponents only can use their heads .
It's like poker , but you choose the cards your opponents get .
It's like doing exams when you already know the questions .

Does this seem fair to you in any way ?

didn't think so
[exept the last one maybe xD ]

And people ; ffs stop thinking this is only about ectos and mindblades ; djeezes it's about the entire game etc ..

Skills should be balanced based on use in regular gameplay, not based on use in farming builds.

That said, SF is not invincibility in normal gameplay. It may be easy to forget, but there is plenty that gets trough SF in the PvE environment. A Sin using SF in a questing/mission party faces enough damage sources that I believe SF is fine.

Damage sources that affect the Sin directly include Touch skills (Plague Touch, Shock, Throw Dirt, etc), Signets (Leech, Humility, Judgment, Agony, Barbed, etc), Wells (Suffering, Profane, etc), Traps, untargetted PBAoE spells (Aftershock, Flame Burst, Inferno, Lava Font, Putrid Explosion, etc), environmental effects (Lava, Poison Swamps, etc), and of course, stuff like Afflicted Soul Explosions.

Further, when partying, the SF Sin has to worry about a multitude of other indirect damage, such as damage from Death Nova, Splinter Weapon, Spiteful Spirit, Suffering, Meteor Shower, Fireball, etc.

SF is not invulnerability. It is immunity to targeted attacks and spells. That's it.

Your first three attempts at examples relate in no way to what SF does.
And the fourth one actually refers to PvE itself.

"Its not just about the ectos, its about being invicible." - Is anyone actually using this is PvE?

"Its not fair" - How? If you choose not run SF its your choice, its like choosing not to take monks or something, its up to you.

"You can farm more ecto in less time" - Its not about the speed of ecto farming, people were farming the chaos plains before. Its simply about the ease of farming, now anyone can farm the money they want not just the "pros".

Not direct quotes but just some sum-ups of some of the crying I have heard.

~A Leprechaun~

what you are referring to is not shadowform. you are referring to pve in general. the reason pve has allways been easy is that once you learn your enemies skills etc you develop builds that can overcome them. perma shadowform works well in chaos planes because it takes advantage of those enemies which have potentially devestating attacks but somewhat lacking defence. they have no self healing so the build in question works fine, while shadowform negates all of their strengths. i urge you to try using it in general pve and you will see that it is just a blatant waste of time. if it is truly godmode then feel free to try it in DoA. the build is only 'overpowered' for one specific farm which it was designed for.

Yeah, but before you needed to actually prepare your build to farm specific mobs, now a dumb perma SF can just aggro everything and not care (there are VERY few mobs in the whole game that cannot be farmed by a perma SF and should be avoided).
Farming was always a part of GW, overpowered farming builds also (I was always supporting nerfing them to reasonable power levels), but having 1 build that can farm just about EVERYTHING and do it much easier and faster than other builds is the IMBA level we haven't seen going in GW before.

no SMART player will use a perma shadowform build for pve, its just a farming skill really, you lose half your attributes for 1 skill, your weopon needs a enchant mod, you need to constantly watch your energy as if you dont have 30 its gonna drop, its not worth it in pve EXCEPT for farming and running. people say its "ruining" the econemy, by dropping ecto prices, but i think they were over priced as it is. this game really isnt about "elite" players who spend so much time they can get the "ultimate armor" (obsidian, which i think looks like crap anyway) i think the buff to it is specifically to get the ecto prices to drop, honestly, imo they were too high, plus you could always get perma shadow form, it was just harder. honestly, why cant there be an easy way for everyone to farm? oh no, noobs now have money!

The only thing that should be nerfed is this thread. These guys have figured out a way to get more people doing more things...which is good for all of us and them. Whether its ursan or perma sf or some form of crazed ele the game has more options and I enjoy all i have tried and look forward to the ones i havent. What we really need is more places to farm and more challenges..but i guess we have to wait a while for that.

The primary argument I have seen for a nerf to SF is the fact that it unbalances PVE. I disagree. Here are some of my reasons for disagreement.

The perma SF build allows one to farm ectos very efficiently. These ectos are then spent on obsidian armor with stats no better than 1.5k sets, chaos gloves with no better stats, and weapons with no better stats than collector gear. If you honestly believe that the ability to afford an undedicated white rabbit minipet unbalances the game you might want to reconsider your opinion.

Each and every perma SF sin out there is doing his farm in an instanced environment. His virtual invulnerability (at least if properly run in the UW) has no effect whatsoever on a balanced group that enters the UW.

As regards to the lack of balance inherent to the build itself as suggested by many in this thread I must assume that those individuals are making reference to a degree of balance between the perma SF build and the builds that they use themselves because in general a knowlegeable and/or skilled player's build will almost always be much better than that of the monsters he is facing. In many cases these monsters do not even have full skill bars. I am assuming here that the players arguing against perma SF for balance purposes are not choosing to use "bad" builds to match the monsters they face in PVE. Unless they do so they are not in fact contributing to a state of balance between themselves and the monsters. And, since they are not in the same instance as the perma SF famer, no state of balance needs to exist between that build and theirs.

At least one individual asked for a single good reason for SF to remain without nerf. I shall give it. It is enjoyed by some people in a game that uses instancing in such a way as to allow those who dont find it enjoyable to avoid interacting with it. Its that simple. People who paid money to be able to enjoy themselves are having fun. People who dont like the build are not in any way forced to use it or play with those who do. The only counter to this argument for keeping SF as it is would be that its very existence reduces your enjoyment of the game. If that is your argument then you should ask yourself, "why is my enjoyment of my GW experience dependant on the decision of someone whom I shall never meet, talk to, play with, or even see to use a skill that I need not ever look at, use, or party with someone using it."

I do not consider perma SF to be anything but a simplistic farming build and I chuckle every time I am in TOA and see, "PRO," perma SF lfg.

Remember, always, to have fun and remember you dont have to take the easy way out. My guild/alliance has started what we call naked mission day. We form up and complete missions in prophecies without wearing armor of any sort. Shields, weapons, and offhands are all that is allowed. Makes even the easiest mission kind of exciting again...

Wrong. Perma SF are also used in 'balanced' 8 man teams that do UW, they make it possible for the complete HM run to be finished under 30 minutes (records are ~20).

And your whole argument about perma SF not imbalancing PvE is very poor - enjoyability of something stupidly overpowered is not an argument, it doesn't matter if you have fun and that you do it in a separate instance.

And if it mattered...

... I demand a nonelite 1-button AoE instagib skill to make my perma SF farms even faster, I promise I will only use it in instances without other people, so it certainly won't affect the PvE balance. And I will have great fun, and I paid to have fun!!!

great argument, really.

Actually my argument stands. The fact of the matter is that none of those people in his group in the instance in which they play is there against their will. The perma sin's presence in that group has no impact on a true balanced group in another instance. I am sorry if you misunderstood my statement but in fact my point was correct. People in different instances have no effect on each other's play.

My point about the fact that some people enjoy running a perma SF sin had nothing to do with whether or not it was balanced. I was very clear in stating that it was an answer to a request earlier in the thread for a single reason not to nerf SF. Again I am sorry that you were unable to comprehend the point.

You in no way responded to my arguments pointing out (irrefutable in my opinion) the fallacy of the concept of balance in PVE. Instead you have taken points out of context. This is not meant to be judgemental I am merely attempting to understand your point or at least the frame of mind that lead you to your mistaken conclusions about my points.

As regards to your last comment...I am assuming that you intended your demand to be taken for sarcasm. I am sorry if that is incorrect. In response I must point out that the perma SF sin build was developed by players (and copied by others) who looked at existing skills and applied their ingenuity, intellect, time, and effort to produce a more efficient farming build for their character. They are working within the context of the game they paid for. You are insisting that things be handed to you, that the existing game be changed to revolve around you. There is a very big difference. I very much hope that you are able to see it.

I want to reply to the anti-Ursan posts earlier in the thread.

Keep in mind that an Ursan is worthless without a monk. Most groups I ever see are still 8-Man teams. Ursans still need cons or they are less effective.

Replace the word Ursan With PermaSin in the above statement. Doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

In terms of unbalanced, Ursan doesn't even touch the PermaSin.

^
Ursans don't need cons, cons just tenfold their power as with any other build.

Not to mention the only place worthy of Perma SF is in farming and farming only. It was already possible from Nightfall.

Wow, this thread isn't locked yet? Crazy.

But...TBH who cares? ectos went down a couple hundred gold, oh noes! Ectos could drop to 100g and I still wouldn't care, although if they did, I'd go out and buy fow and chaos gloves for all my chars...and so would everyon else.

I really don't care if I see more wammo's running around in FoW, if they can finally get it, because ectos are more accessible for them, good for them.

anet should just put a cap on ecto prices at trader, like 4k or something. then ppl with all their money into ecto wouldnt need to complain. afterall, they made it so we can only hold/trade so much gold, making it so we had to use ecto. their fault

hey look at the bright side (except easy ecto source)

now sins are actually WANTED in a party. im happy now i can use my Sin for other then PvP or hero/henching.

There wanted by single players to use to farm not entire parties.

Thats not true. They are wanted by parties for UW clear.

Remove Dying Nightmares' skill (Rend Enchantments) and add this (concept) monster skill instead: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...s_unfair%21%22

Or sth similar

This one is better.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Targren/QQ

oh, we're doing stupid skill suggestions !

Please let me join : make dying nightmares melee and give them : http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Suicide_Health


On a not so stupid note : stop complaining already. This SF whining is getting old. Devs have already stated they'll look into it. What more do you want to achieve with endless whining ?

I think this is a good point to mark an end to this thread.

Everyone's said their piece, and I don't think we can squeeze any more out of this topic.

/Locked.