Cathedral of Fools

I counted 4 players gain a skill points there. kekekeke

okay, first of all, the runner told you before hand that he needed help healing, if you are okay with it go on the run, if you are not okay with it, find another monk who don't need help healing.

Got a mission run (okay, not a "run"...more like educated assistance) once, and the runner made it clear that he needed one person to be a tank and would take some off the price for whoever would do it. He says we can help if we want, it'll make it go faster, but we don't have to. Explains this all with all party members in the group to see it.

We get in, he starts telling us where to go, and doesn't fail, there's one person that gets into a debate over it. "Not a run if we have to fight! I'm not paying for this, I'm paying for a run!" "I said you don't have to fight if you don't want to." They go on with this for a bit and then we move on...every stop they seem to be debating some more. Finally, the other person in the group starts saying, "Well...it's not really a run..."

We were almost finished with it and the "runner" got fed up and threatened to quit (which had me about ready to strangle them all, because if I'd known it was going to go like that, I wouldn't have wasted a half hour with them and gotten an actual "run"). Tired and pissed that people were being total assholes even though they freakin' KNEW what they were doing, I upped my payment to continue regardless of whether the complaining party quit or died or whatever. We went on, the one griping died first and nobody bothered to rez until all the work was done.

I thanked the runner and said, "I'm not paying for a 'run' I'm paying for 'good help'."

I don't care if I have to help out, it gives me a better idea of what I can do for myself later. What bugs me is when people don't tell you before going in that they need help, or the people who know they may be asked to help before going in and then flip out about it in the mission saying "It's not a run!" Even more so when there is a full party of people who were okay with the arrangement waiting on the feud to resolve itself.

How DARE you show concern for the runner?!

Anyhow, time for a shameless Ritualist plug:

Playing as a Resto Ritualist can work wonders during runs. [Life] has a decently long range and [Protective was Kaolai]'s range, I believe, is unlimited. I often tag along with my guild during 3-man CoF runs--throw in [Death Pact Signet] for good measure.

And yes, people in general are idiots. I recently posted a thread about an argument between myself a newer player. I believe it was swiftly put under lock and key.

Why is this still going on?

Just charge 3k per run then give them a 1k discount if you need their help.

Is it really that big of a deal? Is it really that hard to heal a smiter? Just bring Mending+Succor and stick it on him. I do see your point but in this instance healing isn't very hard. And 2k is a reasonable fee; you get 1.5k back for completing the quest so you essentially pay 500g; stop complaining. If you don't want to bring heals, don't. Someone else probably will.

if youre going to be running with the CoF runner anyways... at least it gives you something to do.

@OP
your argument does however make perfect sense and i fully agree with you.

Really you can put this down to lack of experince, i run CoF regularly, usually just me and ONE monk hero smiter...if i do take anyone its usually guildies and/or friends, i never asks for heals, in reality heals in CoF arent needed.

Why don't i need heals for my smiter monk?

Well...its called battle field awareness...knowing what you're facing, and what is doing the damage.

So let me give a couple pointers to all the 600/smiters out there...

- 2 banshees max and the smiters signet of devotion is enough to stop them from dying.

- 600, wand the banshee's as you tank...why?..becasue it means RoD is triggered when you wand instead, hitting YOU and not your smiter...wow..easy as that to counter...

- CoF is 100% do-able with just you and your smiter hero AND having LOD equipped...MoR isnt really needed...again looking at the foes there are only TWO in there that have intrupts
i)Grasping Gouls and ii)Enchanted Daggers .. In both case PS, SoA, SB will be up (hopefully) before they touch you so they have nothing to intrupt, they use there intupt skill first usually, after which, you're safe.

So there we have it, with some battle field awareness you're able to properly solo this AND have the benifit of LOD all to yourself.

I think to cut off the whole "scamming and leaving problem" price should just be the 1.5k reward you get for the quest. Then people wouldn't have any reason to scam (unless they were super greedy) because the gold they get for free from the quest pays the runner and they get gold and items from the run.

I also think, that they should have a self sustaining healer but then again it's no big deal if they need people to bring heals as long as they state it when their advertising their run.

1: The banshees don't only cast RoD on themselves...they cast it on things that are taking damage. Oftentimes the banshees sit back until you kill a few before they run in.

2: Never run spiders do you? Bummer...half the good treasures in CoF are in the spider areas. Incendiary arrows ftl? And I've been interrupted by daggers...hard mode AI loves to do that. If you're unlucky your spirit bond is distracted...20 more seconds of nothing. better get that SoA up and spam PS.

As for the above poster...scammers scam no matter what. if they can save 1.5k and get a free run, they'll do it. They don't care if the cost is the same...1.5k is 1.5k to them, and they'll do what they can to keep it.

1. Of course not, but if you wand them then they start casting it on themselves thus reducing damage taken from RoD.

2. I always do this is HM...Nm is in fact harder than HM, and ive never been intrupted by the daggers.

3. HALF the good treasure...half....gee...i didnt realise there were that many spiders to accumulate HALF the good treasure.

4.Enchanted weps.... PS>Bond>Engage>As the come towards you cast SoA and stand and watch...no need to spam bond at all, when SoA is about to expire cast bond...they're dead...

1: only if you're doing more damage than the smites. Which you're not.

2: You got lucky then. What are you saying, you're better at clicking the mouse than me? rofl

3: Well you obviously don't run the spiders, you'd know what I meant by "treasures". LoD much?

4: I do this as well...sometimes they don't die that fast, and I don't like having my health drop down when I 600. I cast spirit bond a second time to put me back to max as SoA takes the damage down to 0. THEN I sit there and watch. They never all die before SoA wears off though...sometimes they get lucky, sins don't double-strike as often, so they're still around and swipe my spirit bond from me.

Every situation is the same. I farmed to rank 9 delver in 3 days on my monk as soon as I got her to Doomlore. I know what I'm talking about in CoF.

Back in the day for Elona's Reach as a Necromancer MM I was able to scam people into paying a "discount" price of 3k instead of 5k if they came along to make the run "faster". So technically it wasn't a solo run at all, I was just more or less a elite hero they could take for a fee. Up to you if you consider it scamming or not.

1. [reversal of damage] RoD triggers on hit, so if they cast, you wand, you gain the damage back, not the smiter.

2. guess i am lucky.

3. I do run spiders, but the spiders have 1 sometimes 2 chests, that isnt half. i always LOD...

4. never experienced this. odd

I decided to go along for a Ooze Pit run yesterday and its much worse than CoF. Sure in CoF you have to heal the smiter but in Ooze pit the stupid runners ended up dying on the run so I had to complete it, and then later on at the boss he needed me to spam Diversion on the foes in order to kill them. Price of one run: 5k. Rip off imo, far worse than CoF.

don't even know what's so good in these chests that people are willing to spend 2k-5k+ and 15min+ on.....>.>

i do see your point, but payin 500g for a nice amount of del pts and couple gold drops by doin some healin outside of aggro zone, i guess alot of ppl could live with that "rip off".

charr rangers have savage shot too...

1: Yes, but if they don't cast it on themselves, but on something ELSE...notice "target ally". Reading comprehension > you.

2: Guess so.

3: I've seen up to 5 hidden treasures in the spider areas. That's about half.

4: Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I run higher HP on my 600 than the average I've seen in my time spent as a smiter. I've been told by my smiters that they're impressed that I max out their smites. So I know I'm killing at the same rate you are. maybe there's something you're holding back to prevent looking like you're wrong?

Some dungeons have rare items that are only obtained by their respective end chests. Frog scepter, emerald blade, clockwork scythe, etc. If we're referring to CoF...well there's the Ruby Djinn polymock piece, best drop from CoF end chest. Either way, there's also all the drops you get during the run, the hidden treasures with possibilities of gems, in COF there's diessa chalices and rin relics...1k/2k each respectively. And the run isn't 5k, it's 2k.

While i agree with this
" They are providing a service, if you don't like the terms of that service then don't join their group. "
The simple fact is if I'm paying for a service to be done for me, i expect to not have to do anything along the way. These are not "runs" in any form because you have to actively participate and provide a necessary skill and yet you still pay full price, that a bad deal in IMO.

If you agree with the quote, why do you continue to complain? Get a guildie to run it for you, tag along on a friend's farm session, etc. If he's farming, he's figured out a way to make it happen without needing a healer. All you're doing is increasing the amount of apparent drops, many of which could be assigned to him.

Either way...just because you're clickign two skills at the start of the level and running along doesn't mean you're participating. Make a regular group to go into CoF hard mode and complete it. See how long it takes and how much effort you have to put into it, then come back here and say 500g(after quest reward) isn't a good deal for what you get IF you heal the smiter.

Lol....right

1. Yes i can read, but if you've ever started to wand them then more often than not they cast RoD on themselves, im not saying that wanding banshee's is a fail safe way of making sure the smiter doesnt die, im just saying it takes and edge off the damage returned to him/her.

3. there are 2 sides to the spider areas...the most ive ever seen is a chest a peice...not 5..even reading the wiki entry of CoF shows that there can be a MAXIMUM ( as they are randomly placed) of 3 in the spider area(s) .. 5 is exaggerating a bit.

4. I can easily exceed 800HP as a '600' in CoF. I'm not holding back anything, just giving the info from my experinces. The only times i get intrupted is sometimes if i havent casted SoA before crypt goul gets to me they every so often intrupt it, but thats not a concern as i have bond covering.

1: Sure it's not failsafe, but odds are the highest spike of RoD is in the early stages of the aggro where everything's hitting you except for the couple of casters, RoD spam everywhere, there's plenty of energy to do it, etc. you can't mediate that with wanding the banshees, sorry. If you take more than two banshees in one aggro, the smiter is going to hurt.

2: I've seen 2 in each, have heard there have been 3 on occasion. how do you know if you never try it? Plus there's almost always a locked chest or two in those areas. People want spiders in their runs, there's a reason for that. Highest ratio of treasure to enemy in the entire dungeon.

3: I 600 with 845hp religiously. I only really use MoR with the above-mentioned spiders. You can't kill the spiders with a monk tank without MoR...they'll interrupt the second cast of spirit bond guaranteed. then you're dead in the water and the spiders have a huge patrol zone...so you're looking at a party wipe to rez, and passengers don't like that sort of thing.

RoD doesnt trigger in regards to 'highest spike' it triggers when that person is hit just like RoF works that way, so if you wand someone who has RoD on them then the damage return is back to you not the caster, if i run into an agro already 'looking' at a banshee i can i) know if its casting RoD and ii) wand it, though it can be spammed easily, like i said once you start wanding it more often than not self casts therefore easing up some pressure off the smite.

Like i said quite a few posts ago, 2 banshees and the smiters sig of devotion is sufficent to self heal, therefore not requiring passenger heals.

I do do spiders, without MoR, though they enjoy intruping it is doable, the reason why i mentioned not needing MoR in the first place is so if you want to run CoF with just you and your hench, you're self sufficent as you also have LOD

i'm sorry, but if you can't 2 man the CoF, you need to quit monking

9 expert salvages gets me a 16/16 hero who can keep himself alive

I haven't done a run there (just h/h or teamed it), but if you're saying most of the runners are charging 2k AND requiring assistance from the group being run, then that's not the standard fee, that's the reduced fee. The standard fee should probably be more like 3 or 4k then and not the other way around. I think most peope doing that though would probably just pay the reduced fee and help, hence nobody is offering to run it (unassisted) for the standard fee. Alternatively, since most people may be willing to help out for the reduced fee, maybe even the unassisted runners are discounting their fees to get some business.

Here's a tip : get the smiter to take a hero healer.

Only, that reduces overall drops for humans and gives you something else to QQ about...

Also, CoF is a crap way to make money running, AtfH is much faster and more profitable.

CyberNigma, 2k is the standard fee and some runners do run this unassisted. They're just few and far between, so everyone seems to pay the same.

I never said it "triggers on highest spike"...where did you learn to read? I said you get the highest spike of RoD from the initial aggro where the energy reserves of the banshees are highest, and you have the most damage being dealt to the warrior/dervishes by the smites. The Banshees cast their RoD on these enemies, not themselves, until they're the only ones left alive and they're taking the highest DPS (i.e. attacking you AND being attacked by you).

You must take spiders slowly if you can do them without being interupted every cast. Me, when I run, I run fast. on the right side, I MoR, ps, sb, spirit bond and get both popup groups at once. That requires a few SB's before they're down to few enough where I can time SB casts between attacks.

You must also take other groups slowly...I aggro as much as I can to make the run go by faster. That means 2-3 groups of undead, meaning up to 4 banshees at once. So in exchange for a half hour run instead of 45 minutes, the passengers should bring a heal for my smiter. It's something I advertise and I never disappoint.

To me, I'm paying for the run so I don't have to deal with the mission. If I'm participating, it's eliminating the whole purpose of getting "ran" when I actually have to participate.

I was going to get a few areas vanquished for me, just because I'd rather afk for 3 hours than spend it actually playing and just have one area vanquished. I checked the "services" area of Guild Wars Guru for vanquishing runs, and it's like "18k for this area, but you have to help", and I just think "wow, I'm paying 18k for basically nothing then."

Basically, if you are participating in the run, it should be free.

People like you always want something for nothing. Two clicks then free ride through a hard mode 3-level dungeon? Give me a break.

As for vanquishing an area...that depends on the level of help you're required to do. if you can do it yourself cheaper, by all means I won't cry about it. There's always someone else willing to heal and pay.

I guess the runner should LoD and supply lockpicks to all passengers as well?

I totally agree, if you're getting runned, then you're paying to get runed. Correct? (duh,)

but if you're particapting in the run then you're not so much as getting runed as HELPING the runner to run.

And that is a completely different idea than getting runed. Get runned or HELP the runner to run, they're different in every shape and form.

To say the very least one should get a 50% price discount for the run, since one is playing an active role in the mission, while when one is getting runed, one shouldn't do anything other than die to allow people to afk for a while. (look at the older runs, i MIGHT BE WRONG, but i'm pretty sure there's at least one run where the players suicide to prevent a afk jam)

If this is going to come down to personal attacks then i'm not going to bother to reply. My orginal statement was showing that CoF can be done do easily and quick enough not to require additional healers. It was never intended to get into an in depth disussion on personal tactics and techniques...but when a discussion comes down to personal attacks which you've putr across more than once, then the discussion has broken down.

Most replies coming out now are the same as we already have and this is going in circles. Topic needs to be closed.