Cathedral of Fools

any smiter with half a brain doesnt need heals to stay alive anyway.

So you're admitting that most runners are providing an inferior service and still charging the going 2k rate for it, and that's apparently fine?

I don't think that's to do with the smiter.

I mean, it's the 600 taking aaaarrrghhrow! (AGRO)

Exactly. If their charging for the run, they should be able to do it without party help or it's not a run anymore.

It ceases to be a run when the "runners" require the team who are being "run" to do anything besides go afk, then it's just a pug.

Let me get this straight:

You're QQing about how someone isn't letting you cheat the system as much as you want to cheat it?

If you don't want to bring woh or heal breeze, do the run yourself for free.

I hurd pve iz srs businez.

I couldn't care less, but its common sense that paying for a run means your being run and the "runners" are doing anything. If you have to do anything, its not run.

Seeing you get 1.5k from completing the quest, + some end-chest stuff, Treasure Chests and Locked Chests on the way to it, I'd say 2k is a bargain for only healing the runners hero.

*sigh*

The return is irrelevant. The issue is that people are providing shittier services for the standard fee, and getting away with it in mass.

Look at it this way: in one hand you have a runner that doesn't require players to heal their smiter, and in the other hand a runner that does require heals. In this scenario, both runners will kill the same number of enemies, and the players will get the exact same drops in each run - the return is the same on either run, even if the drops aren't the same (assuming you're getting runs that kill as many enemies as possible and retrieve all hidden chests - as you should be) even outside this scenario.

After all this, having been run by the two different running teams and paying the same amount, you will probably think to yourself:

"Wait a second, why did I pay 2k for a runner that needed assistance when I got the exact same return from one at the same fee that didn't need my help?"

This is even ignoring the time factor behind both runs (where a team that doesn't need assistance will generally complete the run faster).

/facepalm

If you're going to try and use my own analogy to counteract my argument, at least have the decency to read it properly.

NEW ADDITION: Dungeon Run: Happens when a player [runner] is payed a sum of gold to run (definition above) another player [runee], or group of players to the end chest of a dungeon. Contrary to a typical run, however, runees do indeed interact with the environment in order to pick up dropped items, and activate/open other chests along the way. As with the run, the dungeon runner is expected to be able to complete his task successfully with no interaction/help from runees.

Note that I explain my position very clearly. I define what I call a run in the game of Guild Wars. And now i have defined a dungeon run. I define what the majority of players who employ runners, or run themselves, define a run as. Therefore, it is not a "service" which can be modified at will by the runner, it is an agreed definition by customer and provider. I pay my gold in the knowledge that all i need to do is pick up my items, expose a chest every now and then, and thank the runner when the final chest spawns. You want to do less work? You are unable to satisfy the established criteria of the job? Then you get less pay. Logical result, says I.

Many the pro-runner posters seem to argue that the OP is just too cheap to fork out 2k for a few measly spell casts every now and then. Let me clarify: The monetary sum/Rep Points/Items gained during run/cash made during the run is irrelevant, it is the PRINCIPLE that matters. The PRINCIPLE is arbitrated through a payment of gold. Therefore, a full payment symbolises "I am 100% satisfied with the work you did, now here is your reward" NOT "gawsh mister, thanks for taking time to let me tag along healing you/your hero. I am so glad you decided i was worthy enough to give you money" (as some of you seem to think)

Also, let me clarify my plumber scenario:

1. He doesn’t need to ask what sink(run) needs doing. He knows what his job is.

2. Asking you to hold something (casting a LoD, requesting you not activate ghosts, asking you stay put until he ensures it is safe) Casting LoD yourself benefits you, as well as gives the runner an extra skill. This scenario benefits everyone involved, as well as making the run quicker and more profitable for all.

3. Turn his wrench. AKA healing, rezzing or using skills that the runner(plumber) should be competent and able to use. I believe my example of "screws up and floods the bathroom" is far more appropriate. Why should I have to pay a full fee when I am inconvienienced and forced to intervine due to his error or lack of skill?

So why are people charging for a run? If I NEED them and they NEED me, that means its not a run, its a group effort and therefore a pug.

Yep, it is, as people are more than willing to pay 2k AND bring a heal or two for the hero. They have to interact with the environment anyway; what's one more click? Even when I don't ask people to bring heals, they bring 'em anyway. I've had people bring Martyr, Spotless Soul, Succor to maintain on me... The only people throwing tantrums about it are the ones on this forum. If you don't like it, feel free to either do the run yourself, or find a runner who won't ask that you click your tiny little mouse button every once in a while, oh gee, THE EFFORT.

Interesting.

If i'm required to do something while being "ran", it means I am a "runner" also and should be payed.

It's only logical.

damn, you're whining for 2k even though you're making money and farming rep points out of someone else's work, all you have to do is healing a hero now and then...

there's really something wrong with you guys

Why the debate?

It's like any other contract. If they told the customer up front that the cost was 2k and they expected heals and the customer accepted, then the customer signed the contract knowing what was expected of them. So, apparently, the customer agreed that it was fine.

If the customer does not wish to accept that contract, then he/she simply needs to look for another provider.

If the runner expected heals but did not tell the customers that before entering the dungeon then, AND ONLY THEN, the customers have a right to complain.

It's that simple

I think you're the one with the problem mate, for starters you seem to lack the basic skill of READING.

Wow, I'm simply amazed at how very thick some people on this Guru are. It's as if they lack the skill of reading.

This thread is not a QQ about the effort of clicking the "tiny little mouse button every once and a while", nor is this thread a QQ about having to pay 2000 gold for someone to do all the work for you.

This thread is about the principle of clicking the tiny little mouse button while paying 2000 gold. This thread is about those who need assistence running CoF thinking they are entitled to charging the same price as someone who can run it with no assisstence.

Our basic argument is this: If we have to aid the runner in the run, why should we then be charged the full price of a proper run? Surely the fact we aided them, when they should really be self-sufficient (as many others are), entitles us to a discounted price?

This thread is not about being cheap, and its not about casting the healing spells. It is about fair pricing, and how those providing a simply inferior service should not feel entitled to charge the cost of the superior service, much less have the audacity to respond to a thread discussing it with the level of indignation, mockery and all-round immaturity I have witnessed in this one

I struggle to think of how i can make the theme clearer.

Tom, the concern I have is that if the current trend continues, bringing and using heals WILL become a normal thing that comes unsaid, and we as consumors will be paying more for less.

Well, look on the bright side, guys. If only intelligent and able players ran CoF, the price would still be 6-7k.

/facepalm

why you want a discount, why not pay extra to a proper run huh?, is not being chep?

YES YES! thanks to bad runners as they are being called you can afford the run: you should be thankful to them for lowering the prices

i bet everyone who's arguing for runees to heal the smiter are probably the monks who steal the build off pvx with no creativity.

ive found rits are excellent runners. i only go cof with rits these days
and really, 3man 600/smite is so much faster, you can distribute the bonds to maintain more energy regen. you can even turn spirits into friendlies, which helps alot.

yes some pugs stuff up agro, but then its their fault. having a smiter die because you suck too much to run a decent build is entirely your own fault.


paying for runs you assist with is like an ele charging people ecto at the end of an uw group - you couldnt do it without that terra after all.

it's completely revelent because your on the damn run because of the benefits, christ dude. Prices are based on benefits, difficulity, and how others are doing it. Why do you think the price has sunk? 1) Many others are able to do it 2) you have to heal the smiter 3) it's not difficult. If think that your getting ripped off for having to pay 2k and you having to not be afk, or having to do something for basically the first floor then do it yourself. Like I said the dunegon is easy so maybe do it yourself instead of complaining. The "runner" benefits a bit from this update because it makes sure everyone is not afk so less scammers and the customers are also able to pick up white items, that they would of missed being afk, to merch so they make more money off the run. Also why you would want to be afk during a 45-60 minutes, what's so damn interesting that your able to afk for 45-60 mins? No seriously I want to know because this thread is RLY SERIOUS.
P.S: If guild wars had principles then maybe the game wouldn't be such a miserable state

QFT. All else is really irrelevant.

LF runner. I'm charging 50g for each time i heal.

CoF is with ATFH one of the most runned place in EoTN. The problem is not runners, the problem is all the lazy ppl willing to pay to do nothing. You feel you've are being ripped off? GOOD!!!! Get off your lazy butt and do it yourself. Otherwise pay and shut up.
I dont pay for runs and i never run ppl. I fail alot on firsts attempts but that where the challenge is; succeeding at something witch at first you're not good at.

/sarcasm on
LF runner to GWAMM.

Running to Merch and Chest 50g each stop.
/sarcasm off


Running out of the flame fest...

Pretty much sums it up
/agree

People have gotten used to 45 min or less runs and so standing around, waiting for the 600's energy to go back up, doesn't appeal to most people. When I get runs I put BiP or BR just to speed things along. Though I've found that most runners aren't the best energy managers. I thought it was a given that you have Rebel Yell turned on while running CoF and find alot of runners don't even know what it does.

you should consider working on your own reading skills before trying to be a smartass...


if you need me to make it clearer for you : I fully understand your argument, and it is totally pointless


who cares about what is a "true" CoF run is ? people make CoF runs for money and rep points

are the runs with no healing more profitable ? no

are the runs with no healing faster ? no

do you really care about 500g every 30 minutes ? I hope not

does healing prevent you from staying afk ? yes, but with no healing, and staying afk, you'll lose more than 500g in drops and hidden treasures

is healing difficult ? of course it is, bonding a smiter with a +3 mending is soooooo difficult


but you're wasting your time here with "principles", your principles are worth 500g in a video game

let me say it again : there's really something wrong with you

In all honesty I agree with you, but that's the whole point of a run; pay the guy doing your job. What I'm against, kinda, is that people require others to have heals 'cause the smiter "can't" heal himself (or doesn't wanna). Then it doesn't become a run so to speak and I know that people have a problem with it. As the example has been given, it's like paying a runner to Droks but he requires you to run by his side to help him - he just helps you get through it.

But as it's been said, if you don't like that kinda run, don't join 'em and run it yourself.

Then I guess it's up to the runners to manage energy. I drop Blessed Aura (IIRC?) for Blessed Sig, as the percentage of ench. lasting barely affects the run - by the time Spell Breaker is blinking the mob is dead, if they're not all dead the most annoying or threatening enemies are, while PS, SBond and SOA/SH are spammed like mad so really, any decent duration is okay.

The people I run and run with are friends and friends of friends - if something happens they don't mind (it happened last time I was smiting, my 600 died at a bad spot, we had a good laugh but she had to go after D: ). Never ran with a PUG smiter or with a PUG 600... I just don't trust them :|.

I was in Doomlore getting ready to Vanq. Dalada Upland and noticed a bunch of people wanting CoF NM ran for their books. Guess I felt sorry for them because no runner would do it and the runners were telling them it couldn't be ran in normal mode. Use a Mo/W 600 with Frenzy [Frenzy] and you can run it in normal mode, only hard part is the final boss and you have to set her on the fire trap (otherwise be prepared to wait 3 - 5 minutes for her to wand herself to death).

Told everyone in the group the price was 2k ( and that it was slower running in normal mode) and if they stayed back, didn't agro anything, and behaved I would knock 500g off the price. I also made an agreement with a N/Mo in the group if he/she healed the smite hero I would knock another 500g off his/her fee. In the end they paid 1.5k for the run and I walked away feeling kind of good for doing my one good thing for the year. The big surprise for me was I had 6 people wanting the run, no one dropped, no AFK, and no one tried to scam me.

Guess this thread did influence me a little when it came to price and giving the N/Mo a break on the fee since they helped.

it may inferior to you, who knows better, but it may not be inferior to him. if it is to you, dont take it, problem solved.

the issue is that people are paying for these shittier services for the standard fee, and LETTING them get away with it in mass, and then come here and moan and complain.

it IS a "service" that can modified at will by the runner, as he is providing the "service". it is HIS service, and he can require or not require what he pleases. you cant just assume that his service is what you and a vast majority of other people define as a run, you have to check with him, but, lucky you, he tells you what he requires by saying BRING HEALS.

if you want to go back to principle, then we shall. the PRINCIPLE of the entire game is for mostly 8 man teams to PLAY through the game. you and the others getting run are completely bypassing this by having 2 people do this for you while you sit back and watch. and think of it as the runner charging gold and heals, if thats what hes charging. im not saying that you have to pay him, or that you should take his service, im saying its up to you, but if you dont like it you dont need to come here and QQ all day.

actually, im pretty sure payment symbolizes "gawsh mister, thanks for taking the time to let me tag along going places im not suppossed to be yet or that im just to plain lazy to get to on my own. im so glad you wasted time to do this im going to give you money."

youre telling me that he is somehow suppossed to be able to just walk into your house and read your mind or something? or is he suppossed to just go through the entire house sink by sink poking around in them until he stumbles across the broken one?

so turning the plumbers wrench makes him completely imcompetent and dependent on you, and yet holding something for a few minutes doesnt?

let me clarify. the runner NEEDS you for maximum profit. at least, a good runner does. a bad runner NEEDS you for maximum profit AND a little heals to his hero. if you dont like the bad runner needing you a little more, find a good one. simple as that.

that sums it up, we shouldnt have continued this thread past there.

and for those that would want me to CLEARLY STATE my position:
i like stupid runners no more than you. but i also feel that by coming here and QQing for those who are born with less intelligence than you, you are no better. the solution to this "problem" is to simply not take their service. no QQing or long hours in this thread required.

I'm not gonna read any of this thread and only read the first half of the op. Now if a 600 or smite are really snotty about it then just put them on your "bad runner" list. However,

Firstly, CoF runs are what now, 8-9 months old and the 'fix' of Reversal of Damage is a good 3-4 months ago. It's pretty much a given on what to expect when you're running or getting run there.

Second, as a player getting run through, what exactly do you have to do that inhibits you from tossing a little heal at the smite during those few times it's necessary. The run gets soo freakin' boring, you gotta do something.

I've 600, Smite, got yanked through CoF hundreds of times. As a person getting run I actually came up with specific builds for whatever class I had to maximize my healing. Not that much was needed but it was fun. My Ele and Rt builds were really fun. I would actually be upset on runs if too many people were healing because then all I got to do was stand there and be bored out of my mind.

In all the run parties I was in I didn't run into anyone that complained about a little healing or truly wanted a reduction of cost. It seems a bit rediculous when it takes sooo little effort in an otherwise uneventful borefest. Are we all really THAT lazy? You're going to find that there will be fewer and fewer runners doing CoF as time goes by. If they all have YOU on their bad list it will make it that much harder.

I don't do or go on these runs anymore but I still have said "bad list" as well as my "good list." Surprisingly the good list is quite a bit longer.

Oh dear. Sink = dungeon run. That example means that the runner doesnt need to know which run he's doing, he is the one advertising it. And, as i said, I find the "plumber screws up and floods the bathroom" example more fiting to my point than turning a wrench.

Bug John, if all you can summon is the tired old "it's only a video game" excuse then I'll be sure to mark any and all posts you've made in here as ignorant tosh. I'm not here to argue about whether it is healthy or not to argue a principle on Guild Wars. You say you understand my point and then dismiss it, but how can you possibly claim to understand it when you go on to talk about everything i said is not my point? I think you either don't quite get it, or you still think this is about money and button clicking. If it's the latter, please read all my posts in full until you understand them before attempting to retaliate


At the end of the argument however, what exactly will be the result? The trolls will gain an inch or so of e-peen, some will be left crying in frustration and still others will be wondering why the hell such a ruckass was created over a measly sum of 500g.
Many people on both sides of the opinion have agreed that the best course of action is simply employ the runners who appeal to you. If you dont like healing, look for one who doesnt heal, and if you like contributing then you're pretty much welcome anywhere (hey, who would say no to a bit of help?). I believe this is the best way to satisfy everyone.

Like the run? Take it. Don't like the run? Say "nty" amd move on.

you really don't get it ? that's precisely because your point is totally out of the subject that I'm not talking about that

cof runs are all about money and rep points, as long as they are profitable, there's nothing to say, just find the fastest and cheapest runner

and yes, it's just a video game, you can talk about the best builds to run cof, whether the runners asking for healing suck or not, but trying to turn this into an ethical issue is totally irrelevant

I pay based on run times.

< 40 min = 2k w/possible tip
40 - 50 min = 1.5k
> 50 min = 1k

I have no problem dropping heals, etc now. It's about time for me. I've been on two amazing runs that were less than 35 minutes with spiders, etc. I wish I had put those two runners on my friends list.

Tired of shitty runners charging 2k as if they deserved it like the good runners do.

For me, any runner that says "Bring Heals and LoD" is a sloppy one. I've seen plenty runners do just fine with the two somehow bringing all the needed skills on their bars. Rit/Mos seem to be the ones that get away with it alot easier mind you.

2k for an ACTIVE run when you need to do your part too is a bit silly tbh. Whenever a runner advertises for 1.5k or less I happily go along and don't complain since everything I pick up during the run is raw profit. But when it's 2k which is OVER the quest reward, I tend to alt-tab out of the window alot.

Yes they can say "Bring Heals and LoD", but I'm not gonna listen to that if they are charging 2k, I'll go along, hope nothing goes wrong and if it does just leave. I'm not FORMALLY bound to stay by penalty of seppuku if I don't heal part of the runner duo that can't help themselves.

Thank god for the HoM update, once I get r10 delver on my war (and I'm not switching to wammo to heal either), I'm adding the monument and not having any more to do with that place.

You don't. You also have the option of not taking the run. Kind of agree with the runner here--you took the run knowing the charge and the requirements. Its a fee market thing--you gotta pay to play, but you don't gotta play.

I'm an avidly vocal cautioner of people paying more than 'tips' for a run that can't be completed without the people on the run's help. If you're helping, you're not technically being run, it's just a group. I'm happy to do tips, but certainly not pay anything over 800g...(although if I tip it's usually over...I just don't think you can ASK for anything over that).

Group effort my ass. The rate of runnees going AFK or dropping in lvl 3 has become so phenomenal, that it is best to bring an additional healing hero so that runnees will shutup for the whole run, and can go AFK until boss as much as they want.

Seriously, 600s should start using healing heroes so that mindless QQ as this thread can stop!

no, its like giving him directions to your house.

which really isn't a big deal.

seriously if you are to lazy to heal a smiter a few times, stop playing.

i got an idea, quit being so contrary.


is it so big a deal to throw mending on your bar?

My view would be that if you need a clients help, then you fail at what you are trying to do. I did services for awhile on here probably over a year ago now and I would not even dare ask someone to help me with a run who are paying for it in the first place. It's like in game if someone says 'Running Mish 2k' then when you go with them they then say you have to play and help....sorry but I dont pay to do something myself?
@Everyone saying that its not hard healing someone, this is true but why should anyone pay to do this, its kind of like paying to take part in the mission. That will be next 'Doing Ring Of Fire, 2k To Join'.

- Realised how old this thread was while typing this =S. Still applies thou.

I agree. I also pay less if they've screwed up a ridiculous amount. They cannot tell me that dying is common when I've had several monks never die on the run. Eventually, I'll just leave.

It's not that these people are lazy.

They're just filled with this incredible sense of entitlement that leads them to post stupid analogies and cry that they shouldn't HAVE to do anything other than stand around with their thumbs up their arses.

OK OK we get it, you're not 'helping' on the runs. You're not able to press buttons. We get it.



(Why is this thread even open? Is it contributing anything other than said whiny entitlement bitching?)