Cathedral of Fools

on topic: Take Mesmer smiters, no need for extra heals, in 40+ runs Gwen never died (she did annoy me by running the other way than i pointed her tho.

off-topic: The only thing that really annoys me are human smiters.
Ive seen smiters go like: Smiter LF 600 golds 50/50.
At that point i feel like cursing the hell out of the guy, i dont need a human smiter, if he wants to get profit, learn the freaking run. Not like its hard.
Worst part it usually is a monk that requires healing from party members ><
Why on earth would i pay a guy just standing behind me doing nothing, requiring heals and making my customers annoyed?
Simple answer: I don't

Consider the heals as part of the cost of the run. E.G. instead of paying 3k or 2.5k, you're paying 2k+heal. Plus, it's not that hard maintaining Mending on the Smiter hero. -_-

YOU ARE MAKING A PROFIT. just remember that, even if you pay the runner, you still make money or else you wouldn't go on the run.

The run used to be 3k, then the nerf now everyone's doing it at around 2k - make sense?

NO! NO! NO! Get your facts straight. They are providing "part" of the service. Not all of it. Without anyone/thing healing "THEIR" Smiter there IS NO SERVICE. I'm the customer. I paid for their service. It's up to them to provide the service without my intervention. The moment I intervene it is no longer a service they are solely providing on their own. I don't go to a restaurant, pay for their food and wind up cooking a portion of it myself. Even if I get a profit (more food), it still does not justify having to cook my own food especially since I paid to have it done for me. The amount of loot and the rewards at the end do not justify anyone having to help the "runner" do his/her run.

It's really as simple as adding an extra hero dedicated to healing the smiter. But instead we have greedy runners who would rather use up that spot for another 2k. IF it's soooooooooooo easy to heal the smiter why can't the runner do it himself? (riddle me that)

Ultra Mega, if a person that paid for the run is healing the smiter then they are ALSO providing a service. Should that not be recognised, and reflected in the price that person (healer) pays for the run?

You guys make me laugh so much, lets say all those runners who only run thanks to the help of kind and generous costumers like you stop doing that incomplete service, so, you will be a lot of people looking for run and only a couple of competent runners, would you pay, umm, 5k for the same run since all the other scum runners are not worthy of taking your gold? i dont think so, you not only want it fast, no deaths, a lot of good drops AND cheap. at the end you will find another excuse to whine about

It's a term of that service. As he said, if you don't like the fee he is charging with the conditions that he's imposing, simply find someone else to provide you that service without the condition.

The key fallacy in the OP's position is that there is a "standard fee" for a CoF run. Yes, some runners charge 2K and do not require heals, while some do. It's your choice whether or not you want to go through the extra condition or not...but it doesn't mean that the runner "owes" you anything in return.

Bringing a maintained enchant like Mending, or hitting a HP/LoD/Breath of the Great Dwarf on occasion is that big a deal that you insist on yelling at multiple runners? Really?

The runner the OP was talking to was right; if you want to go afk for 20 minutes, find a runner who isn't asking for people to contribute, otherwise, there's no reason for you not to help, other than to be contrarian. Skills don't cost money to use, mkay?

This thread makes me /facepalm. I am so glad I stopped running this for profit once I obtained my obsidian armor.

Don't forget people, monks aren't the only profession that run CoF!

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_600_Rit/Smite

So while a Mo/ tank might be able to use a mesmer smiter, not everyone can.


Between this and all the other profession discrimination shit that's been going on, it really makes me wonder if we're going to face the same idiotic shit in GW2.

You pay the runner about 2k for the run. You make about 6k in merch + other stuff. Just cast mending or healing breeze the odd time, enjoy the run and quit bitching.

I agree....its like "Running to Droks 2k!! Please bring Charge!"

its insane

guild wars is serious business.

I will say the thread title was definitely enticing.

oh lawdy the outrage, having to using a skill within the 40-60mins instead of just picking up loot, whining or agroing enemies

The problem is people can't figure out how to modify a build. The original build posted on PvX is what people are using. That build was posted before [reversal of damage] was fixed. Now that the smiter takes damage, it doesn't work. Carefully modifying the build allows me to run with myself and 1 hero. My smiter heals himself, AND I carry my own LoD for the hidden treasures. I can't stand people who want runs, so I just go by myself or with guildies/friends. I do laugh everytime I see a runner say the people being run have to bring heals and LoD.

You can't teach people who don't want to learn. If they think they do it best, and aren't willing to learn something new, there is nothing YOU can do. Either make yourself a Monk to do the run, or pay what they ask, and do what they ask. If you want the run, you do what the runner asks. If they ask something you won't, can't, or shouldn't do, then don't go with them.

All this time I thought I was doing the right thing. Guess I'm the sucker. Looks like it's time to ditch my dedicated healer and make room for another 2k. If customers bitch too bad, read this thread.

I CoF run many times and I never have issues with healing, though my run-ee's are generally nice enough to bring a few. Im Mo/Me my heros are Mo/N and they do get hit with RoD, but they never get hurt fatally. I just paid the money to give them a Sup vigor, full survivor and the other health runes and they cast Vital Blessing on themselves, around 700+ HP, they never have issues. And I am known by my guild to give the quickest and most efficient CoF runs. The only requirement a person being run needs to have ever would be to bring LoD for your own rewards, my reward is the run payment itself and I wont ask for anything else

CoF is FTL anyways, i used to do it, give me crappy drops, its just useless in general, gives no good money you couldn't make in half the time....

Yeah, the ones that require heals are usually the ones that will just waste your time. I just find some good, fast, reliable runners that dont require healing, and add them to my friend list, or just watch for when they spam in Doomlore. Or I specifically watch for the ones that state "No heals required!!".

I, as I'm sure many others do, define a Guild Wars run as "another character(runner) getting you from point A to B. Requires no interaction with the game environment from you (runee)"

With dungeons, LoD is exempt as it benefits me as a person. Any type of paid run is a service, and if i'm not satisfied with said service, I have every right not pay. It is exactly the same with a RL service. If the plumber screws up and i'm forced to mop up, there is no incentive for me to offer the price that was agreed upon for a COMPLETE job. If i am satisfied with the service, i will gladly pay, and sometimes chuck in a little extra like a dye or item as an extra "thank you". Beer in the case of the plumber.

Healing i don't mind at all, but it should carry with it a discounted price as the moment you use a skill to benefit the runner, you are effectivly aiding him in his run (becoming a runner) and not being ran yourself (as a runee). I suppose it is a matter of personal feeling, if the runner is friendly i am more inclined to give him some leeway, and if he conducts business coldly and decidedly UNfriendly, I treat the run as only business and am not fazed at all to dock his pay for a shoddy work.

I deduct money from the run if the runner isnt doing his job properly (IE die). 200g per death after the first death ensures he'll be more carful in the future. I always make sure they know i want the chests so they dont ignore em too.

I don't think it's really a big deal, hell if one other brings it you don't even have to bring healing. Also why would you afk and give up 1-2k in crap drops? I sure as hell wouldn't. So yeah don't see the big deal of having to bring a heal, when I do I only have to heal 3-5 times over the whole entire thing.

Leachers like you make running a pain. If the runner ask for heals b4 you join the group, and then you decide to argue with him about it, all you are doin is griefing. If someone pulled what you did to me, I'd boot you, tell you to do the run yourself, then ignore you.
What makes me sick is that alot of people are agreeing with this griefer. If you don't like the run, leave.

What people are agreeing with is the fact that runners are asking people to heal for them and STILL make them pay.
I brought this up in Doomlore today myself, and all I got was "Well then don't get a run, because you can't do it as fast without the 600 build" in which case I replied "Well apparently you can't do it without the people getting ran if you are having them do YOUR healing."

And when you join, you are agreeing to pay and heal. You are greifing if you join, then complain about having to heal. The 600 is doin 99% of the work, healing is a 1%, not worth not paying.

Exactly, Shadow.

You're paying for a quick run, and the 600/smite duo performs that quick run. You can always get a group together and fight it, but it'll take 3x as long at least.

I can't stand people complaining about the cost of a CoF run and their requirement to do a little healing. You get 1.5k from the quest, plus any drops you get along the way, these more than make up for the 2k fee.

People like the OP and others similar are the reason there are so few runners for CoF anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.

Hell, when I was taking runs, I loved to heal the smiter. Essence bond on the tank(stacks with the 600's own essence bond, btw) and glimmer of light with 12 healing on my warrior.

And Mourne, the 600/smite duo can indeed run it without the passengers. It just takes longer. If they want to not heal, they can be there for over an hour. Their choice. If they heal, it's a half hour (with me at least, getting all charr, chests and spiders btw), and they still profit.

I'm sorry but smiters have the possibility to bring heals - as a smiter, I take heal sig. with 3 tactics AND IT WORKS. I don't even spam it all the time. I do NOT require outside heals, and if I run guildies, alliance members and friends through it it's up to them. I don't mind them bringing heals, but I certainly don't require them to. After all I run 'em for free...

When I take a run, I pretty much expect the same thing. Why should I pay to complete it with them? I really don't get it, sorry. I really don't. It's like paying someone else to run yourself... then again I took 2 runs, the duo asked for some people to take heals and one to go full heal.

On the other hand, I make more than 2k just getting ran (made over 15k last time I got ran). The price itself doesn't bother me at all... but if you rely on your party members to succeed something you can do with 2 people, that's not a "run"...

If your runner is super fast and can gather massive amounts of enemies at one time, then heal the stupid smiter. When I run CoF (which is like never anymore), I gather the entire fire dart room enemy pool (30+ baddies) and they go boom. Ogden without healing = goulash

I don't care for the drops, I'm really only there for the rep points nowadays.

You should take note that I have these arguments with the runners - and subsequently leave or get booted - in town before they even enter the dungeon? Half the time I'm not even in their god damn team, and they PM me first when I protest in local chat! How is that leeching, or grieving for that matter on my behalf?

You're just like the rest of them - "WTF OMG SUM1 FIGERED IT OWT WTF KICK HIM OMGOMGOMG".

I understand what your saying and ive had runs that never asked or needed it and i was fine with that. But honestly its maybe 1 cast or so a floor and thats it. My piss off is when runners die like 15 times and then still expect full price

Umm... 600rts ftw? No outside healing required.

I don't mind helping heal, taking fury, rez, lod or even providing bip if they want. All those just make the run go faster without being a major pain to me.

But I won't stay if the smiter is an idiot and keeps using wrath before retribution. I'm sick of smiters that do it the wrong way and call you names when you point it out and then call you more names when you can't keep them alive.

I'll help but if you're gonna be dumb expect me to map out.

After reading all the post I have one thing to say, "I am so glade I stopped running!"

I stopped running before backfire was updated because of: AFK, Ursan Idiots, Scammers, DC, and just meeting people I couldn't stand to be near. Like so many other runners have said I am only doing it for friends now.

It doesn't matter if you heal or not the standard price is not going to go lower then 2k, anything lower then that it is not worth the runner’s time. Less then 2k and the runner can make more farming. If you feel the runner should not charge 2k then run it yourself or wait for someone to do a tip run, I always liked doing tip runs, more of a laid back run for me and funny to see what people tipped. Had everything from 5k to a Passage Scroll to the FoW. (You have to laugh when you complete a perfect run, zero death, did all hidden, and did all locked chest, and dealt with an idiot agro ursan the whole way, and the ursan idiot tips a FoW scroll).

If I have to Maintain Mending [Mending] and Succor [Succor] on the smite (succor helps the 600 too) that does not bother me. Pass up a hidden and watch how fast I leave. If you are going to insist on all hidden make sure you state so before the run starts.


Go to Doomlore shrine and you will always find more people wanting to be ran then they are runners. Want to know why a large number of good runners have stopped running, read this thread.

if you really hate paying runners for cof... Just h/h it...i usually h/h it 2-3 times per days in hm, with signet smiters. Take about 40-50 minutes. And it gives me 7k+ per run, still.

Don't bash the poor 600 monks

So you are just running around telling people their builds suck and them what to do? Classy.

I've been run in CoF a fair few times. I'll happily go as E/Mo healspammer - it's less boring than simple tagging alsong.

So I'm firmly in the "if you don't like being asked to bring healing, don't join the group" camp.

However, what I do have a problem with is if a runner advertises as being competent, keeps getting killed and then expects full payment. In my opinion, a half decent CoF runner must have a minimum level of competence to expect to get paid.

If you advertise a run for payment, and don't have the competence, expect people to leave - after all, not everyone has the time or patience to spend 90 minutes crawling through it (trust me - I've been on that run!)

I have been running the dungeon off and on since September when EotN was released. I have tweaked my builds for changes.

As for the smiter, I have two smiter setups. One is Mo/W with Heal Sig and the other is Me/Mo. Mo/W if no one wants to heal the smiters but it slows the run down a little as I am having to pull some out of Prot to place into tactics. If I know that people are willing to heal I will go with the Me/Mo Sig of Illusions smiter and max out my health as much as possible. The more health I have the more damage is going to be going to the smiter. I always ask when the group is assembled if they are going to heal. That tells me which smiter to use.

As for Light of Deldrimor, again I ask to see if someone is going to bring it or not. If no one has it in this day and age of GW I am more than happy to bring it but again it slows my run down. If someone brings LoD then I switch back to Air of Superiority with speeds up the run a bit due to not having to worry about conditions for the most part.

I guess it comes down to those that absolutely refuse to understand "time is money" and the more time in one run is less time for elsewhere.

Then you come down to the price. If I charge 2k for how I run the dungeon and someone has a problem with it I have no problem with not taking them. Sometimes I go with only a couple people and sometimes I go with a full party. It is a "free" economy and people can charge 1.5k if they wish. I will continue to go with 2k. I have fun doing the dungeon whether I am running it for myself or running it for others.

I agree with the OP.

Why pay for a run in which you have to contribute for the run to succeed?
It's no longer a run IMO.

This is probably why I don't join these kind of runs.

Whenever I run CoF I make my smiter hero /W with healing signet, which is enough to keep him alive.

It CAN be done without healing the smiter, however I agree most runners don't know how to do it and they always ask for players to heal them, personally I don't care about paying 2k as I always get them back and more.

But then again I'm a person who doesn't care for money since it's a game, no need to make such big fuss if you ask me.

- Ganni

You shouldn't need anyone to do any healing to keep your Smiter alive if you know how to put good builds together If you use Illusion of Weakness, combined with Signet of Devotion, the Smiter should survive any groups with banshees. I think people would rather bring Rebirth for you instead of heals... People usually bring it anyways. So let the players you are running do the resurrecting when it is needed, which with some people is rare. I do this with 600hp Rt/Mo and Spell Breaker monk, and it seems to work fine. You do have to manage your energy a bit more, as you won't beable to use BiP or BR on your hero. If you are good at doing CoF runs, you shouldn't need either of those, including Rebirth.

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Here are some sample builds I put together for Smiter. I haven't completely tested them out through whole CoF runs.

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This one I use with my 600hp Rt/Mo: I haven't completely tested it out by going through all of CoF, but I did take on a group of 3 banshees no problem... and I believe that is probably the most you will find in one group, but even if there was 4 banshees it should survive it.

[build prof=mo/me div=12+3+1 Smi=10+3 Ill=8 name="CoF Spell Breaker Dual Monk" box][Spell Breaker][Signet of Devotion][Blessed Signet][Blessed Aura][Retribution][Holy Wrath][Balthazar's Spirit][Illusion of Weakness][/build]

You can also find it on my 600hp Rt/Mo guide here:

600hp Rt/Mo Vengeful Tanker - Dual HM farming with Spell Breaker Monk

Even if you don't use 600hp rt/mo, you can still find info here that could be useful on the Smiter part.

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Smiter Builds for 600hp Monk:


Mesmer/Mo for Smiter

[build prof=me/mo ill=12+3+1 heal=12 ins=3+1 box][Signet of Illusions][Signet of Rejuvenation][Ether Signet][Vital Blessing][Life Attunement][Retribution][Holy Wrath][Illusion of Weakness][/build]

Mo/Me Smiter: Cast Life Sheath just before you aggro a group with Banshees to help keep him alive easier, this should be the safest to go with.

[build prof=mo/me Smi=11+3 Pro=11+1 Div=6+1 ill=8 box][Life Sheath][signet of devotion][blessed signet][vital blessing][life attunement][retribution][holy wrath][illusion of weakness][/build]

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I am gonna test these Smiter builds (for 600hp Monk) out on the very first group of Undead. I'll let you know how they handle. They should work fine though. If anyone tries it out, let me know how it works for the whole CoF run.


I tested them both out, and they both seem to work fine. Mesmer of course is 16/16 Smiter, and Monk Smiter has enough attributes for 600hp monk and seems to be safer with Life Sheath.

While this is good it will not help the smiter live through big pulls. The worst I have seen is pulling two groups together and there were 7 banshees between them. Even that taxes Heal Sig because each packet of damage from Retribution is 42 damage. Enough of them hitting you at once is a big spike. That is the worst case scenario but I have had may times 6 banshees in a group. Illusion of Weakness will help the smiter stay alive for 5 or 6 extra hits.

Life Sheath will only stop 3 to 4 hits and once things start hitting you won't have the energy to re-cast it.

On a side note I still haven't found a good reason why Life Attunement is in many of the CoF builds. To me it is a waste of a skill slot. With Life Attunement you can goto full health in 3 to 4 hits with Spirit Bond and without Life Attunement it is about 7 hits. It appears to be redundant.

Illusion of Weakness definately helps, even though it barely triggers at all, but for 6-7 Banshees, it should help alot. As for Life Sheath, that is optional, but it is only needed to cast once of course. Life Sheath will reduce the first round of RoD, which can take pressure off of Smiter for a moment... the Monk build with Life Sheath should survive any amount of Banshees. It is also good to attack one of the banshees to get a chance of reduce the amount of damage of RoD from wand damage (if they don't cast it on other enemies of course). Both builds will work fine. I personally would rather use 600hp Rt/Mo, as it is twice as fast, and has 2 optional skill slots. I usually take LoD and Pain Inverter, which both help alot.

At the moment I am in CoF with 600hp mo/me with 16/16 mesmer, and so far so good. I always pull big groups of undead together myself.

As for Life Attunement, it does help to counter degen and damage that doesn't trigger Spirit Bond from certain enemies. Without it your health has a change of lowering from certain enemies. It is jus some extra to help the build be a bit more safe.


I completed CoF HM no problem as 600hp Mo/Me with Smiter Mo/Me build. I was by mysef also, so no one was healin my Smiter.