PvE Balance - Part 2

Now that would be balance ,wouldn't be ? Right, just maybe your memeory isn't your strong point so that's exactly how things weren't before Ub and PvE skills. Because they were exactly as i have written: skill<x hours you need to invest at one go, skill<ability to find a right guild, skill<ownig all chapters to make gimmick build plus skill<if your profession is totaly sub-par to existing efective gimmick build.

What guru community so often fails to see is that in many cases that is not just skill that differs "casuals" from "elite". So it's hard to understand for me why building impenetrable barriers between these groups is so great idea, personally i would rather see it as fluid transition which imo is possible given pve is balanced the right way.

Because you do not have to get to max rank in just one sitting! But you have to finish the quests/missions in one go.

Then you bought the wrong game. Read the boxes. Skill>time. Competitive. Skill matters. All of these were SELLING POINTS OF THE GAME and are now gone because of inbalanced garbage. If you don't play PvE to be challenged, then you can hang around and do other things in game, but you should not actually be playing PvE...ESPECIALLY hard mode and elite areas where you are EXPECTED to have a challenge.

You don't see a problem with ELITE areas and HARD mode being extremely EASY? Are you serious?? You don't see something wrong with new players being able to accomplish the exact same things as more skilled players?? Are you serious?

You completely made my point for me. Anet could care less because they only care about who buys the NEXT GAME, not who plays the current game. They can turn their current game to absolute shit (which they have done) and feel no consequence whatsoever. All they have to do is turn their current game to shit, and then make promises that the next installment will fix all the problems that the current installment has!! That is exactly what they are doing.

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I am bit frustrated that the same arguments in favor of Ursan and other inbalanced crap keep coming up over and over, and almost all of them are completely selfish. 2 examples:

1. "Don't like it don't use it"
2. "The overpowered stuff like Ursan doesn't affect me, so it is ok"

Don't people realize how selfish (and bad) these arguments are? They are essentially saying "I could give a shit less about the health of Guild Wars...I only care about MY way of playing regardless of others". Both of these arguments are not even arguments...they completely sidestep and ignore the problem at hand and add NOTHING to the thread whatsoever.

People arguing for change are people who want it to make the game better AS A WHOLE. Don't people realize how many have quit this game due to severe inbalances? The idea that newer players can accomplish the same things more skilled players can do is ridiculous.

If you are going to argue for keeping things the same in the game, you have to take the "it is beneficial to Anet" stance. It is the only legitimate argument I have read.

As far as I am concerned we are far beyond WHAT needs to be done with Guild Wars, and are now more into WHY Guild Wars has changed so drastically for the worse.

I said this in another thread, and I think I'll say it here as well. PvE skills in GWEN were a mistake, and that can't be changed. I think it became an imperative to do HM and other elite missions only after the Hall of Monuments came out. Why? Because they transferred over to GW2 - and it's good for Anet if more people buy GW2.

This means that a lot of people who previously didn't possess enough skill to do HM want the rewards that HM will net them - Legendary Guardian, Legendary Vanquisher, etc - and their corresponding statue in the HoM that translates into stuff in GW2. The easiest way to do this is via things such as ursanway. Better players have other options and can choose not to ursan if they want to, but weaker players who are not as familiar with their skillbars and the game in general may find that ursan is the only way of getting them to those rewards - hence the prevalence of things that a lot of players consider overpowered and broken, the prime example of which is ursanway.

Better players won't want to play in PUGs, because that's generally what you see in there - people who don't want to play anything outside of ursan, or cannot play anything outside of ursan. So if you want to pug, you don't have much choice, and if you don't have friends or guildies to play with who share your opinion of ursanway, you get bored. Some quit. End result? Less good players that you can actually meet and maybe learn things from.

But nobody here is being challenged.
Even when we do NOT run Ursan-like crap.
I mean I played PvE for 5k hours. We all agree that the weak link in PvE are the foes - and unless you develop this insane new AI - you'll never be as challenged in PvE as you'll be in PvP.
Yet I don't move to PvP. And considering that - I MUST be aware that playing a game that challenges me isn't what's in store in GW PvE.

Why would it be an issue?
The fact that some shitty player has issues with something that I do not - doesn't make the game harder for me.

You know what's the problem here?
It's not that the players are arguing that. I mean - that only makes sense.
"I can't do it! Waah-waah-waah! Give it to me!!"
The problem is that A.Net is dumb enough to listen.
Why are you pissed off at players?

-Hours invested into what?
-Good players don't exist only in guilds. It's just that one of the most vital and required aspects - communication - is seen much moreso in guilds and seldom in pugs.
-Don't need a gimmick build to win. Just to be good.
-All professions can find a mold in PvE, just some less than others.

Yet they still have to grind for it. It doesn't matter if you can do it in one sitting: for each second grinding away, you can spend 1 second playing the game.

In their current form, the skills do not help casual players. It helps people totally decked out in leet armor who prefer to have their skill take the backseat to "time invested", and have the patience and time to *grind* their way to victory.

If UB was maxed at the start, if the PvE skills relied on attributes instead of ranks, I'd be much less spiteful towards them. But as it is, they're not even helping their intended audience (unless ANet wants to cater to people who don't care about their game...and at which point doesn't sound too far off, sadly.)

Maybe not in direct effect to you (since nothing ever impacts anyone's gameplay) but more directed at the game. Considering what's happened, I am indeed rather concerned by it.

Tell that to all the people who complained that DoA was so hard that is beyond playable. There were numerous extremely long threads devoted to elite areas being far too hard. Anet listened to these people and made Guild Wars easy.

Its an issue because Guild Wars has now has no learning or difficulty curve whatsoever. It is simply: put skill X on your bar, beat level Y. Rinse and repeat. There is almost no advantage at all in player skill. Many people do not want to play a game where the line between veteran and newb or skilled and unskilled is so thin.

Ursans existence puts every player in Guild Wars in the position of "I must use that skill or I am gimping myself completely". That is a problem. Not to mention many pugs require it.

I'm not pissed off at the players for using the skills. All the blame should be placed squarely on Anet. I am simply pointing out that many players who use the skills are giving completely terrible reasons for keeping them the same.

The issue for me is that even though I am indeed challenged on a few occasions, the knowledge that I'm mostly losing by not going Ursanway is a bit disheartening.

So the issue at hand is: you're not losing because you're inexperienced, you're losing because you're not grinding up your Norn title and using UB. This wouldn't be too much of a problem if UB was the most complicated and difficult thing to use in the game. Unfortunately, it's the near exact opposite.

They way I see things is that the Story should be easy and doable by anyone with any amount of skill.

The bonus zones (FoW/UW/Slavers Exile) should require some skill but still be doable by the average players.

The ELITE zones(Deep/Urgoz/Sorrows Furnace/Domain of Anguish) should require a good team of well coordinated players to clear.

Some will argue that the "bonus" zones should be "Elite" but I feel even the average player needs some End-Game-content or High-End zone to adventure and farm for cool skinned items.

ON the other hand the Elite zones should not be about making massive amounts of cash. They should actually have small rewards, titles/HoM statues only. The reward is the fun you have clearing such a difficult zone.

[shelter]?

Something I've been saying for a while. I expect Mesmers might be a little more favoured if things like Pain Inverter and Cry of Pain were associated with Mesmer primaries rather than being something that could be used with a zero-investment Mesmer secondary at most.

These (especially the last, which IMO is the one that was really the biggest problem) are signs the balance is off. Ideally, all professions should be equally useful at the top level of play. Many of us were hoping that PvE skills would be used as a means to keep professions regularly nerfed for PvP (Mesmers being the most obvious) useful in high-end PvE.

Ursan, on the other hand, is a sign that ANet has given up on balance entirely.

Tier 1 Zones:
Sorrow's Furnace
Tomb of Primeval Kings (Everyone forgets Tombs, even Anet. Why is there no HoM statue for this?)

Tier 2 Zones:
Underworld
Fissure of Woe

Tier 3 Zones:
Slaver's Exile (need HoM statue for this also)
Urgoz's Warren
The Deep
Domain of Anguish


EDIT: Tombs could arguably be in Tier 2.

That's only fun for a few times. The Elite zones need valuable rewards IMHO, rotation rewards, like new skinned items every month.

Since when is SF an "elite zone"? You can H/H it with relative ease...

Hmmmzzz.....if that is the case. we should remove consumables like e.g candy canes, armor of salvation oso. All these items also contribute to severe imba to the pve game. it makes wimps into tanks & party wipes is a thing of the past. if u wan to criticize, do it on the whole & not selectively.

Ofcourse now you cant get rid of them as he uses them. not to mention shrine bonuses which have been ingame since near day 1.

seriously, what are you talking about ? It's like saying: ursan ? what ursan ? GW just doesn't look like this.

Game doesn't even check your skills because of it's unbalanced design :
- random group in term of efectivness totally sub-par to guild group
- balanced "role" builds totally sub-par to gimmick builds
- not having all chapters -totally sub-par to having all skill and secodaries at your disposal
- certain proffesion totally sub-par in pve then others

Ok, it's reasonable that things should matter, but now due to imbalance gap between them is far too large (of course i agree that closing this gap by UB is rather wrong decision)

So they only play to boost their ego ? What is so good in dividing playerbase in closed groups ? So was evryone mistaken when thinking skill>time means that even playing casually you can become good and skilled at the game given you are willing to learn ? Now many peopel think just otherwise.

I think you got that wrong.

Any online game will have skilled players and unskilled players which has little to do with player segregation or ego.

It's actually good for the game promoting an actual required skill level in order to achieve results or access content/rewards.

It's the very core principle of what makes gaming fun and in regards to MMORPG there HAS to be a divide between unskilled and skilled players else what is the motivation to attain or play the game at all?

UB goes against this core principle of needing skill to attain reward and replaces it with un-skilled repetition of content.

If I remember correctly - the problem of DoA was that it was pretty much doable by only a few gimmicks.
It was designed badly - rather then too hard.

As I had said before - to be able to Ursan PuG - you need to be max Norn.
Which means you need to unlock HM.
Which means you completed the game.
Which means you did learn what was expected of you.
Why should the players themselves set standards for OTHER players what kind of skill-level is demanded OUTSIDE of their party?

I am sorry - but the reasons aren't terrible.
You just don't agree with them.
They WILL be terrible once A.Net comes out and says that the reasons stated aren't something that they will listen too.
Currently all what the "terrible" reasons are stating is that people are enjoying the game and that they do not wish a change.

Actually - if you are losing without Ursan - you are losing because you are bad (or better yet - not good enough).
The game ISN'T balanced for Ursan (meaning Ursan being "the best option" and the game being beatable only by the best option).
If there are players able to achieve what you fail at without Ursan - that means you are not good as they are.

Yeah, no.
Just no.

It's cute how inaccurate this is; despite my respect for Ract, had to highlight this gem.

Umm... Shrine Bonuses were not added until the release of the Factions campaign, so either your definition of "day 1" is vastly different from mine, or your January 2006 Guru join date is more revealing than you'd like it to be.

Or maybe your guru join date is misleading and you just dont have a clue. You know the ones you knelt at before Factions was even released. like these
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Statues. OH SNAP did it again.

No, you 've got it wrong as game doesn't promote skills nowdays but it wasn't pre EotN either.( reasons i stated in my post). It promoted dedication not skills. You know what there is quite succesful mmorpg called WoW which is doing the same but GW was suppose to be different.

I think we 100% agree but failed to communicate properly.

:P

Yes, looking at my posting history it's clear I haven't got a clue in the world.

The types of shrine blessings you were referring to in the post I was originally replying to are not the same as the shrines that were in the game pre-Factions, which only offered Morale Boosts and a "Holy Blessing" which bestowed a meager +25 additional max health and +3 HP regen... hardly comparable to additional points in your attributes or any of the other silly buffs they put into Factions shrines.

-As it should be, and always will be
-Wrong, pugs just run gimmicks because they don't know what else to bring.
-Good players make good out of the tools given to them. The only problem is that you may not be able to run a gimmick, but that's more of a pug mentality problem..
-Not entirely. Some just can't be fit into a gimmick too well, or don't set in with the standard mentalities often seen in other MMO's.

What's so good in ruining the depth in your game?

And who sets that standard? Are you saying that players are privileged access to the harder difficulties because of all this, even if they're not skilled enough?

You can really say that to any decision any game designer makes: "It's not that turning everyone into Carebears was a 'terrible decision', just that you don't agree with the direction".

Understandable. But knowing that part of the reason you and your friends may be having trouble with a certain area is because you're not using an easy, cheap, grinded, and overpowered build isn't always a comfort. It should only be because you're not good enough. We've been given new tools and we're not using them, and because of that we're having a rougher time. Forcibly gimping yourself should not be a reason of failure.

It's not "the best" option, but there are very few areas where it doesn't work. Not only that, but it's easy to use, easy to set-up.

A.Net sets it. Who else?

What I am saying is that players do not have the right to say that certain arguments are bad and they they can not be listened to.
A.Net has that power. And it's up to A.Net to look at them and then decide which is too weak to be listened to.
Players can argue against it - but in a game that doesn't have a clear direction - shooting down what is basically "I like it because I have fun with it!" is going to be one hell of a job!

One chooses to not use the tools.
One chooses to have a harder time.
And then it turns out one isn't good enough to be able to carry that weight.
And one fails.

But you are right. Easy, cheap gimmicks shouldn't be able to succeed where balanced builds fail.
But that's not an Ursan issue.
That's a GW PvE issue.

Why'd they change their standards to suit a minority who don't care or concern themselves with the way GW is set up? It's not earning them anymore money, in fact if they cater more to them it's going to hurt themselves in the long run.

Fortunately, they're starting to see this as evidenced by the recent dev update:

*Once again* we come back to the list of questions I've asked you numerous times. It matters less in what they do and who they listen to, but why they do so. Since these changes only concern themselves with a minority of players, it's more baffling what ANet's motives are.

These are the two parts that shouldn't have to take place in order to meet the following two:

When you play a game, you should not be challenged becuase you're not using the best of the best. You should be challenged even if you're using the best of the best. You can say "well you're too good for the game". If that was true then a person who knows very little and only how to max a title should not be able to complete the hardest portions of the game.

So fix the gimmicks. Don't encourage them. Metas exist in all formats of GW, both PvE and PvP.

i figured it wouldn't have taken 500+ post to finally get this correct answer..

ah but at what point is an original build a gimmick

Same rules as PvP apply, really. If it's accessible, it shouldn't be effective.

Balance =/= challenge , new content = challenge. There is no balance that can bring challenge back in pve , only new , unwikied content can do that. PvE is just too old to provide challenge to an older player the natural way like you described.

So not making UB overpowered as crap and balancing overpowered skills - while will require you to do more skill, build, and professions research to be effective in their place - will not make the game more challenging?

And if the wiki makes everything so easy, why did we need UB and all of these overpowered stuff in the first place? If people are really that bad, then shouldn't we not be adding all of these things?

And I'm not talking about "challenging the older players". I'm talking about providing a challenge to the newer ones. Saying "well it's a different game these days" doesn't justify allowing even the lowest common denominator to complete the hardest content in the game. It'd be like allowing players who just picked up God of War to be able to beat the game on God mode.

i agreed that things should matter but now they matter far too much because of imbalance in pve content. And PUG mentality is a problem but what is more is poor game design that exactly promotes the worst of this mentality and in fact very often is encouraging or even creating it b/c of reasons you even admited.

What is really pissing me off is the fact that people think of good old prophecies days: but you know what ? All content back then was availiable to all:casuals and hard core dedicated gamers - the key point was skill and willingnes to learn and getting better. The only thing 'elite' players could get was prestige items like fow armour, but gw progressed towards wow style where skill doesn't matter but your dedication. So it turns out that "elite" players love the idea of areas restricted only to them "wow style", because like : level and gear in wow are segregating casuals from hard-core players, the same is done in Gw by:
- random group in term of efectivness totally sub-par to guild group
- balanced "role" builds totally sub-par to gimmick builds
- not having all chapters -totally sub-par to having all skill and secodaries at your disposal
- certain proffesion totally sub-par in pve then others
which in fact do same: put a skill behind and promote dedication.
So you'd better accept the shift in GW towards WoW (thing 'elite' players really enjoy) and stop babling to devs how you love skill>time because they might belive you and get confused and presents you with pve skills and UB.

That's what i'm ranting for:removing UB and pve skills is not enough to balance pve.

And the reason why I don't bother answering it is because I CAN'T!
That's not a question for fellow players - it's a question for A.Net.

That's not GW you are talking about.
Why is it so?
Ask A.Net.
The whole negating an opinion because of something that "should" be is getting old.

Once you have foes dealing 400+ damage - you surely won't allow a person in caster armour to get hit by that.
And that means completely remodeling PvE.

A gimmick build is a build that relies on a specific trick to be effective. Whether is the use of a powerful combination (stacking orders with arrow shot compression), or a mechanic (SR), the build is almost completely built around exploiting that aspect to the maximum potential as its primary and sole weapon.

What is the difference between elite players wanting skill to matter, and the old days providing a willingness to learn and get better? Areas that cannot be completed without a level of competence give a point to player improvement, and provide no restriction besides their difficulty.

I'm not sure why you're putting words in the mouths of 'elite players', who are far from a single entity, when you admit in your post that you're not one of them.

And we're getting our answer in the form of the next update. It's about time.

And if you can't answer it, why are you here? If you can't defend your point and reasoning, why argue? All of your points have to be for a reason.

Not anymore. Hence, this thread, and all discussion pertaining to it.

Or it means preventing the caster from taking all that damage, figuring out how best to take down that monster before he hits the caster, or how you'll be able to disable said monster.

I'm not advocating that A.net doesn't do anything about balance in pve.

I mentioned wiki because it helps when doing something for the first time.

UB doesn't allow bad players to do everything , you still need minimal abilty. But I do agree with you about that.

Pug mentalities exist because of pugs. Not because of the game. Granted, if something does get a little messed up near the introduction of a class, people may come up with a bad view of the class. But more than anything else, it's going to be the overwhelming mentality that forms in players minds.

Look at Paragons: they're still being denied groups because they're apparently "useless", which could not be farther from the truth.

It will never appear "balanced" from a PUG perspective. No matter what you do, how well you fix the Mesmer class, how much versatility and viability you give to every profession - pugs are always going to choose favorites even when everyone is equal.

If you attempt to fix this, the pug mentality, you will only cause further harm to your game.

That aside, though, you're reasoning is pretty interesting: you don't want to fix overpowered skills and aspects in the game...because balance can't be achieved?

Well no duh, of course you won't achieve if you don't fix what's harming it.


It's how minimal that ability can be and still remain effective that matters.

People who haven't played as much as older players have? That's not an issue if the player is good. People who got through the game on a cheap, gimmicky build, show off titles, and turn out to not be able to do basic things like pulling? No, they shouldn't be able to do HM just because they have Ursan, thank you.

If a player who started back when there was only Prophecies plays as well as a player who started when there was Proph, Factions, and Nightfall, then they should, technically, be able to do the same things. An ele who got through the game by flarespamming, however, shouldn't be able to do the same thing as an ele who knows how to manipulate his bar. If all you know how to do is cast Searing Flames, then you sure as heck shouldn't be able to defeat Destroyers as well as people who can figure out a build to get past their immunity to burning and resistance to fire.

^There will probably be an update before the PvE update, since they cut stuff out of the last patch (note: they called it a patch, not an update for once.) for the Guru tournament. I figure there might be one tomorrow with what they didn't balance....maybe.

Also

To put it more simply for those who didn't understand that:
A gimmick build is a gimmick if when you remove something from it, it collapses and fails. A balanced build is one that can have bits and pieces of its build get destroyed and still be effective.

For example, if you remove the Orders from the Rangers, the build starts to suck.
If you disable the Searing Flames in Searing Flames spike, it sucks.

etc.

To balance pve , A.net must also look at the enemies.
PvE skills (both ours and the monsters) sure as hell aren't made for a balanced builds , but for gimmick builds. Both the skills and pve itself need to be changed to reward balanced teams and not gimmicks.
About gimmicks , if I understand correctly , nearly every reanger and necro build is a gimmick?

The problem with the monsters, which will always be a constant problem, lies in their AI. That always has to be taken into consideration. This is shown quite well in heroes: how often have you given them a build that you use, only to see them use the skills in the incorrect order and especially on the wrong enemies?

As such, that's why I don't consider monster skills and insane stats terribly overpowered. In the hands of an adaptable individual, maybe, but not in a predictable computer.