PvE Balance - Part 2

Oh, so no new builds were invented after the release of Factions. What you really mean is you gave up on builds after Factions. That is your problem. New builds are still being created to this day.

You're bad at the game because you can't exceed UB's performance with a normal build. It is true, however, that you fail to see this.

Keep going, there's apparently room for improvement. If you're truly interested in improving your game, stop using UB.

That's called farming. There are only two reasons to speed clear an area: 1) farming, 2) record setting. You are clearly referencing farming, you admit it here:
You're trying to argue that you have a right to godmode. You do not.

Well, steroids make people play sports "better", but it's not generally allowed is it? You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. If you can pull it off, more power to you, but you aren't entitled to do this.


Apparently it does. Next time you post, try not to defeat yourself as you do it.

You're just hearing yourself.

If that is the only option, they should close the servers immediately. If they are FORCED to dumb the game down so a monkey can play just keep the servers open, then they have clearly passed the point of remaining viable in any situation.

Inexperienced players, in any game, must "get better or quit". It's just the way it is, unless they enjoy failing, in that case keep playing.

Exactly. They are both clearly overpowered and need a nerf. There is no right to farm endgame areas in godmode.

Of course a new build will eventually develop. Balance is a process, not a goal. New builds will be evaluated as they emerge. They may force future rebalances. This is the way things progress in GW. The only real issue here is why has it taken so long to nerf UB.

I just had to quote this!

I guess I'm one of those "elitists" who is trying to impose a certain way to PvE. Oh, wait. Guess what? I don't farm nor have I ever obtained more than 100 ectos within the 2 years I have been playing this game.

People are not trying to "impose" a certain way to PvE. People in general already managed to do almost everything before GW:EN, and that abomination of a skill. Yes, I may seem like one of those people who want '05 GW back. I merely know godmode shouldn't exist in any game at all. If casual players were to complete missions such as Urgoz etc. they wouldn't be labeled "elite mission". They weren't designed for the casual player, and they were designed to be difficult and take time to complete.

Soul Reaping IS god mode for a caster.
Why the selective balance?

Because you still need to kill things in order to crapfest high-energy skills xd Ursan powers itself. So does SF Sin.

Which translates to:
IF YOUR PARTY doesn't fail in PvE (fail to kill that is) - you (the necro NOT the whole party!) deserve UNLIMITED energy.

Ursan is a puppy compared to the beast that is SR.

Cobblers.

Soul Reaping is a core Necro attribute, never has SR alone enabled anyone to steamroll the game in every area like Ursan does now.

I don't see the difference.
SR enables people that should fail at this game to succeed.
Godmode.

Stop trolling.

Since SR only triggers on a death, you would need to kill monsters at an unlimited rate to get SR to generate unlimited energy, now wouldn't you? If you're doing killing at that rate already, SR isn't really making that much of an impact, now is it? Unless you are referencing manufactured deaths via minions (in which case I would agree), you're being metaphorical for dramatic license.

It would seem that a multitude of other factors MUST be in play in order to get SR to feed back energy like this. Notwithstanding the fact that SR, as you know, has a timer on it.

You have this strange fascination with the fact that SR generates energy when a monster dies. You seem to ignore the various other primary attributes that function as unbound energy management.

Expertise - Free energy because you used a skill, bound only by how fast you can push a button.
Divine Favor - Ditto.
Leadership - Ditto.
Critical Strikes - Ditto.

These are all energy management attributes. Somehow in your mind, doing the work of killing a monster is easier than using a single skill, or autoattacking. Just stop with the mystical 'unlimited' stuff. They're ALL unlimited in terms of both rate and amount.

It's especially ironic that SR is the only one of these with a limiting mechanism in place, the timer.

If that was the case then necros would have ran riot in every elite area all over the game, this is not the case.
Comparing SR to UB especially after the retarded timer applied to SR, is ridiculous.
SR is an attribute that came with the necro class, UB is an overpowered piece of shit that requires no thought, just mashing of the keyboard.

Lol, your claiming that SR enables people who fail at this game to suceed just indicates that you are trolling.
You should apply that logic to UB where it belongs.

Sabway says hi.

Also, the fact that no-one is abusing the hell out of SR is more a testament to how bad PvE players are and not how 'bad' SR is.

The problem with Sabway is the 'sharing' of SR triggers combined with the manufacturing of deaths via minions, not the energy returned. I'll agree that this mechanism enables bad players to succeed. But we've already covered this fact and suggested closing both mechanisms.

If you're STILL generating unlimited energy, even with both of those shut down, then you're doing it with outside help.

Show me a necro solo build that fuels itself off of SR. Surely such an almighty energy engine is being used to solo the entire game. What? It isn't? How can that be?

I'm guessing that you've left out the part of the equation regarding how much energy needed to be spent initially to get the death in the first place...which is what Upier did by shifting all the killing to the party....except in that case, the party is ALREADY killing at that rate and SR isn't having much of an impact either is it?

SR never taught a caster class how to manage their energy.
A caster class should be limited by it's energy.
A necro isn't (or better yet - it isn't comparatively to other classes.)
If you fail to see this - you are bad at this game.
Thus:
(Ohh and btw - SR was trashed because it was possible to create PvE-like conditions in PvP. So if PvE-like conditions are overpowered in PvP - then they are overpowered in PvE also.)

I am not saying that something like Ursan couldn't be considered godmode also. What I am saying is that if something warrants a nerf just because it is godmode - then SR NEEDS to get hit also.


Anyone coming here and saying that SR isn't godmode but Ursan is - is bad at this game.
L2P.

Last I heard GW was a team game.

Soul Reaping IS the energy management for Necros. Mesmers and Elementalists don't get e-management from their primary attribute...hence the need to e-manage via skills. You're point is invalid on these classes because of this.

Monks do get e-management from their primary, but it still needs to be augmented because they are covering the entire teams mistakes. They have a big job. Special case, your point is invalid.

Paragons (do you count them as casters?) get boo-koo energy from Leadership. You never mention them....
They are. If they weren't all the solo builds would be necros. Outside of minions, if you're getting unlimited energy, you're already killing at an absurd rate.
You definately fail to see that each class is unique, otherwise you wouldn't be essentially comparing SR and Fast Cast as e-management abilities.

You accidentally got something right on this point...
...but then you blow it all here. You just refuse to acknowledge that PvE balance and PvP balance are entirely different beasts. To you 'balance is balance'. And it's just not true, there are different balancing goals between PvP and PvE. Something that's overpowered in PvP can be lackluster in PvE, and vice versa.

This is a PvE thread, so it focuses on PvE balance.

SR isn't godmode. Permasin is godmode. you can't be killed. UB is godmode, you almost can't be killed.

Somethings about SR need to be changed, no argument, it's strong. But it doesn't grant invulnerability, and the lack of uber solo necro builds back that up.

Strangely, my Sabway works because I am able to take down 3 foes in 15 secs - and not because my non-mm necros would need the minions to fill up their energy bars.


Yeah, you didn't get the point here. (Which was also evident by you bringing up comparable primaries (Expertise excluded of course!).
The point kinda is that unless the assassin is achieving critical strikes - he's kinda not getting "unlimited" energy.
Or is the paragon isn't shouting - he also kinda isn't getting unlimited energy.
The necro just needs to stand "next" to a dying foe.
Period.
A caster sin won't be gaining unlimited energy though CS.
Neither will a "quiet" para.

The necro on the other hand - can do pretty much whatever he wants.
Something just needs to die.
And in PvE - if "something" isn't dying - then you are probably still in an outpost.

Edit:
Does that mean then when you are playing a necro you could easily dump all the SR points into Inspiration and still achieve the same efficiency as before?
Or ... take GoLE.
Or better yet - dump the points into blood and take OoB.

Because surely that is what you are suggesting, right?
SR isn't much stronger then those options?
Right?

And this is where your argument fails.

Ohh and this is funny:
Thanks for the laugh.
(In case you don't get it - you can't exactly balance a game if you don't even know the state of the game or if the state of the game is so complex that it pretty much prevents balance. (Like I've previously stated - compare something as simple as a knock-down in PvP and in PvE to get the picture.))

Hold up.

Doesn't Sabway fail in a large number of areas?

/confused.

If you are killing at that rate, you can easily replace the N/Rt healers with Monks and never miss a beat. Soul Reaping isn't the key factor...your killing quickly is.

Sigh. Yes, SR is passive. The necro can stand around doing nothing and get infinite energy....but if he's not doing anything, then SR isn't affecting the killing is it? Let alone unbalancing the entire game.

Your point seems to be that in situations where the teams is mowing monsters down like crazy, necros get crazy energy. BUT YOUR TEAM IS ALREADY KILLING AT THAT RATE. Soul Reaping isn't making a difference in the first place. Even if he doesn't cast a single spell, you're already killing at that rate. If he does cast...what? You'll kill even faster?

Even if he's running a heals bar, you could just as easily replace him with a monk at that point. You obviously aren't being challenged (because you're killing the shit out of the monsters, they can't be hurting you much)

You're contriving a situation where you ALREADY have an extreme advantage and then trying to pin the advantage on SR. That doesn't float.

What YOU are suggesting is that the inherent ability of a Primary attribute should be comparable to the skills within a non-primary attribute. Right? You're trying to compare the strength of SR as an e-management tool to the skills within the Inspiration line (or any other e-management line)

I'm saying that's Apples-to-Oranges.

Comparing the special, inherent ability of Necros to the skills within attributes accessible to everyone is Apples-to-Oranges, and you know it. Yes, SR is stronger than Inspiration...by design.

And all of this utterly and completely neglects the fact that SR was intended to be the energy engine for MMs....whereas inspiration was intended to fuel...what? Nothing in particular, it's just a general e-management line.

And this is where your argument fails.

SR is easy mode for GW, just as UB and SY! paras. The timer to SR achieved nothing , SR was , is and most likely will be the most efficient e-management tool in pve. The fact that it's a primary attribute doesn't excuse it from the nerfbat , it needs to be hit just like UB and the godmode paras and dragonslash SY! warriors. If one easy mode goes down , all need to go.

And elite areas are farmed , that's the only reason why people enter them.

IIRC, this used to be insightful thread. What happened?

The AI sucks. But SR is SO strong that it is able to negate that.
That's why it's godmode. You don't NEED to get better to succeed!
Isn't that the same reason why YOU feel that Ursan should be trashed?

(Let's be honest - I actually could exchange the necros. Simply because the game is simple enough for the player himself to be able to compensate for the moronic AI if the player IS good enough. BUT that's exactly the same position that a lot of people that would like Ursan to be nerfed are are in - despite being better options then Ursan - that doesn't change that something still is insane. Selective balance IS bad!)

Does that mean that the Divine favour BONUS should outheal resto skills?
Or the fact that Ursan is a PvE-ONLY ELITE skill means that it should be insane ... by design.
So it IS fine.
Right?

Look at [oob].
It's an ELITE BLOOD skill.
And yet it's outclassed by a few points in SR!
And you somehow feel that that IS balanced?

SR is worse then Ursan.
It's probably somewhere in the same category as Ursan initially but the simple fact that heroes CAN use it - pushes it just into a whole new category.

As always.
Me.


But seriously - selective balance is bad.
And that is what the thread turned into. You either do it right - or the whole suggestion loses it's point.