PvE Balance - Part 2

Do you actually believe that? Just a guess on my part but I am pretty sure PvE made this game successful but only ANET knows those numbers.

You don't have to have faith in anything, knowledge of how GW started is enough.

Combining both made it's succes, and the original design, the 8 skills only, reversible attributes, fixed equipement. I.e. what's on the box

No player knows anything about which part is more played than the other so stop acting as if you knew.

You only know what you are in contact with everyday.

Guessing isn't part of an argument.

To the OP: Great ideas, all of them. Sadly, yes, I have willingly run in groups with uber paragons, and I run Sabway on both my E/Me and my W/Mo. Even though I do like the effectiveness of both of them, I do agree that they are a bit too powerful. Sabway steamrolls, and Imbagons make you near invincible. Even though it would affect my gameplay in (for me, at least,) a negative way, I /sign this fully.

Also, just throwing this out there, but might want to lightly tap [skill]Pain Inverter[/skill] with the nerf stick. It pwns bosses too much, IMO.

Yea, and I am a ranger and I have noticed that Barrage seems to kill enemies a little too quickly, lets give that a nerf, while we are at it, lets nerf Ineptitude for my mesmer, it seems too strong too, and Searing flames too, my Ele kills too fast, also lets not forget Spiteful Spirit, my Necro should not be able to weild so much power, Kill MM's too, its like mowing the lawn, My warrior is too strong with Defy Pain, we need that nerfed too, Oh yeah, My dervish has the avatars, they remind me too much of ursan, so hit them hard too. How dare anet make a game that is so easy to play, I am an elite player and have earned my way up the top and I hate it when people dont work as hard as I have....Nerf...Nerf...Nerf. Lets go even further, remove all skills from the game and give everyone brass knuckles, balance in PVE will finally be possible and I will have suceeded in making Guild Wars the way I think others will enjoy it!

I think single player games with cheat codes would suit you more...

If the PvP people have taught us anything is - just because something can be countered, doesn't mean it's balanced.

I would have to agree most of the pve balance comes in from the AI control.

I like the post, but one quirky thing about it that I don't like too much is the idea of removing the minion limit at 16 death, which would severely imbalance monster mobs that spawn minions (like summit summoners in slavers). This would ruin game balance on both the monster side and player side.

I agree that the current function of Soul Reaping is quirky as hell, and severely imbalanced for both PvE and PvP. It should definitely be looked at and redesigned. Here are some proposed changes to SR I've been pondering on:

CURRENT STATE OF SR (according to wiki):

Soul Reaping is the Necromancer primary attribute, so only characters that are primary Necromancers can put points into Soul Reaping. It works by giving you X energy whenever creatures die nearby, where X is the Soul Reaping attribute rating. This effect will only trigger three times per fifteen seconds. If your energy bar is full when the effect triggers, it won't count towards the 3 times per 15 seconds limit.

~As you can see, even the description of SR in it's current state sounds quirky. Here are some proposed changes that might help stabilize SR as a primary attribute line:

THE HELMOS PROPOSED NEW STATE OF SR:

Soul Reaping is the Necromancer primary attribute, so only characters that are primary Necromancers can put points into Soul Reaping. It works by giving you X energy whenever you exploit a corpse or use spells that sacrifice health. However, if too much energy is drained through the use of sacrifice, the Necromancer may suffer the effects of Reaper's Strain and deal harmful effects to their own bodies. This effect scales with Soul Reaping as follows:

~For every 3 ranks of Soul Reaping you gain +2 energy each time you exploit a corpse or sacrifice health.

~If a Necromancer Reaps energy more than once within a 5 second period through health sacrifice they will be effected by a special status called Reaper's Strain (which is denoted by a special icon in the Necromancer's hex/condition indicator). Reaper's Strain is a status that will last for 5 seconds after it is triggered. Any sacrifice skills used during this time will additionally cause the Necromancer to only gain 50% of the energy they normally gain through Soul Reaping and afflict a random condition. Casting sacrifice skills through Reaper's Strain also causes it to refresh for an additional 5 seconds.

Point Scaling:
3 SR = +2 nrg
6 SR = +4 nrg
9 SR = +6 nrg
12 SR = +8 nrg
15 SR = +10 nrg

Here is a complete list of skill that exploit corpses:

Blood Magic

* Well of Blood
* Well of Power

Death Magic

* Animate Flesh Golem
* Animate Bone Fiend
* Animate Bone Minions
* Animate Bone Horror
* Animate Shambling Horror
* Animate Vampiric Horror
* Consume Corpse
* Necrotic Traversal
* Putrid Explosion
* Soul Feast
* Well of Suffering
* Well of the Profane

Curses

* Well of Darkness
* Well of Silence
* Well of Weariness
* Well of Ruin

Here is another list of skills that sacrifice health:

BLOOD MAGIC:

Barbed Signet (8%)
Blood Renewal (25%)
Blood Ritual (17%)
Blood is Power (33%)
Blood of the Aggressor (5%)
Dark Fury (17%)
Dark Pact (10%)
Demonic Flesh (20%)
Jaundiced Gaze (10%)
Offering of Blood (20%)
Order of Pain (17%)
Order of the Vampire (17%)
Signet of Agony (10%)
Touch of Agony (10%)
Wallow's Bite (10%)
Defile Flesh (10%)

CURSES:

Enfeebling Blood (10%)
Lingering Curse (10%)
Meekness (17%)
Plague Sending (10%)
Blood of the Master (5+%)

DEATH MAGIC:

Verata's Aura (33%)
Verata's Sacrifice (15%)
Order of Undeath (10+%)
Contagion (10...6%)

SOUL REAPING:

Wail of Doom (10%)

CHANNELING:

Offering of Spirit (10%)

RESTORATION:

Spirit Light (17%)
Generous Was Tsungrai (10%)


This new setup of Soul Reaping will allow the necromancer to gain energy through their primary attribute by depending on the unique nature of necromancer skills in health sacrifice and corpse exploitation; rather than causing a necromancer to abuse a broken and quirky counter system as seen in the current state of Soul Reaping. In order to prevent Necromancers from abusing quick recharging sacrifice skills (like dark pact) in order to gain an unlimited amount of energy, the new status "Reaper's Strain" bottlenecks abusive energy gain by cutting gained energy by half and damaging the Necro's body with a slew of random conditions if they continue to push the envelope.

Reaper's Strain can also be used beneficially by necromancers in order to spawn random conditions and use skills like Contagion, Plague Touch, and Plague Sending in order to transfer them to the enemy while still gaining a few points of energy. However, this tactic is supported by my system and is balanced by the fact that the Necro is still sacrificing large amounts of health in order to spawn conditions and gain energy.

In order to support the new status and SR system, I would modify several skills as follows:

Consume Corpse: Reduce Energy Gained to 3-10.

Necrotic Transversal: You only gain 50% energy from Soul Reaping while using this skill.

Masochism: For 3...15 seconds (18s at 16 Soul Reaping) you gain +1 energy when sacrificing health. When under the effects of Reaper's Strain you only lose 25% of your gained energy and are not afflicted by conditions.

nerf =/= balance

The logic of this statement is undeniable imo hence I view this discussion as largely futile bordering on qqing.

If it was'nt the OP's currently relevant examples it would certainly be a variation on the same theme with whatever other builds or skills currently considered "imba" by the forum being discussed.I agree with the statements concerning player choice directly effecting opinion on PvE imbalance as really it's up to the individual as to how challenging or "balanced" they wish to make their individual PvE experience.

While these "imba" options are available a player is by no means forced to use them or without other options to make the PvE experience as challenging as they wish and as such I can only view the repeated objection to such options being available for others as either laziness on the part of the player to not directly alter the PvE difficulty themselves through not using such builds/skills or frustration in that they simply can't accept other players have the option to choose a less challenging path which comes across as a ridiculously selfish attitude given the medium.

PvE is what you make it and I really struggle to see how people using so-called "imba" options effects my game when I have the choice not to and to me all players should have some degree of freedom and control in this regard as opposed to a regimental and demanded skill level largely dictated by veteran players who are on 24/7.

In saying I would concede that the ease of titles and loot garnering is obviously effected but I personally admit not really caring about those aspects of the game.

It's the question of why ANet provides such options in the first place.

If ANet provided a skill that just gave you all items in the game and cleared the entire area of monsters, I wouldn't care if you used it. I'm concerned with why ANet is implementing it.

You want to see Imbalance? Be a rogue in WoW, or a ToS or ranger in AoC. That's imbalance. I've seen a guy get one-shotted by a ranger TWO LEVELS higher than him in AoC!

The more I play other games, the more I see just how good the GW model is. Other games use a 20-sided die to decide adjustments.

edit: might have rogues mixed up, but I know about AoC. They nerf classes that need help, and make others more imbalanced. It's a version of WoW that is prettier and breaks your comp.

Rogues are imbalanced : o?

On second thought, I shouldn't be talking too much since I mostly look at things in a raiding perspective.

Perhaps it's the bosses that need nerfing, since Pain Inverter is only as strong as the foe you use it on (and you don't get much more overpowered than caster bosses!)...

Agree with Cutter. Tone down bosses and Pain Inverter stops being so overpowered.

What you think is irrelevant, the pve part has a larger player base.

Pain inverter destroys anything that pumps out multiple hit effects. Elementalists, ritualists, warriors, rangers, dervishes all get blown up by it easily. In fact bosses are less prone to it relative to their absolute power due to the 80 damage cap and the fact that lesser creatures get their damage effectively pumped up by the multiplier.

To me the answer seems simple.

Access to as much content as possible to as much of the player base as possible (especially with GW2 release getting closer) the end result being more people purchasing and playing GW for overall longer durations.

In terms of pure business logic it makes perfect sense to me.

I agree there should be certain areas or content that are without doubt restricted to those that have the "skill" or experience to get through them which is why I'm certainly not a fan of Ursanway yet I also understand the logic behind such skills and the justification behind having them as a player specific option especially when considering I, as a player, have the choice not to use them.

At the end of the day Anet is trying to cater to and please the majority of it's players and customers as opposed to the minority of veterans who qq about PvE balance all day long on forums like this while wishing for levels that take 3 days to complete which require the skill dexterity and micro of an octopus on meth.As previously stated by Skye Marin there will always be skills or builds that many view as "imba" regardless of any changes or updates Anet makes merely due to them being the most logical option available to the player at the time to attain maximum ease or effectiveness in-game.

It seems pretty simple to me and the cyclic futility and repetition of the cry of "imba!!!....nerf!!!" every time the latest optimum build or skill set is worked out seems to be a infinite issue to me that can, by the very mechanics of the game, never be fixed enough to please the majority of players that take the time to complain.

They'll just find the next most optimum and popular build or skill set....rinse....repeat....

Maybe but that doesn't tell us what made the success of guild wars. Saying "it's PvE" means nothing, it's the gameplay that made it successful. Which is present in both pvp and pve.