PvE Balance - Part 2

I'm pretty sure Anet knows best what the real specialization of mesmers is.


Also: I like these changes. PvE needs balance.

Why?

I'm going to respond to the op made by Sha and leave the entire discussion about game design in later postings out of this.

• Imbagon
  I don't consider this much of a problem.
  The game isn't overrun by paragons, I hardly ever meet one.
  
  
• Ursan
  Understand the problem, but the main problem is PUG mentality.
  They will always take the team build that has the highest chance of success and Ursan provides that because it's easy to play.
  Before UB it was Tank and Spank, as mentioned later.
  
  
• Sabway
  Team skill synergy is something that's valuable.
  I think the main 'problem' in the build is that necro's get energy from dying minions they don't control.
  The build could be tweaked easy to remain powerfull even when SR is removed from minions from the necro's that don't control them.
  Other then that, heroes do what they do best, react to certain situations.
  This can and will always be abused.
  
  To be honest, I do like playing necro's but found several other team builds to be about as effective.
  The advantage of Sabway is that you can use it in most situations.
  
  
  
• Tand and Spank
  AI is the main reason why this works.
  And it's enforced by the way A-net made the game harder, adding more foes that hit harder and faster.
  This is something that if possible should be avoided in GW2, but for GW1 it's too late to change. PvE players depend on it if they can't ursan and it's been like that since the early days.
  People want to succeed and in PUGs T&S is one of the more relyable ways.
  
  
• Farming
  The thing I don't like about minimal man farming is that is takes the 'team' part away from the game.
  On the other hand, reward could/should be higher since you do the same thing as a full team with less players.
  Change this by rewarding accomplishment with more human players better, but only after success.
  This would still keep solofarming more profitable but would make vanquishing and missions more rewarding for full teams.
  I don't want to be punished for playing with humans and at the moment it's double punishment.
  Less drops and more chance of failure.
  

I don't want that , but minor skill tweaks can make mesmers more powerful (reverting [Mantra Of Recovery] for example). I was hoping for that in the split , but it seems that I have nothing to hope for.

I hope that too. And yes I know that ursan isn't dealing with the problems rather than ignoring them , but at least I play the game with 7 other players which is very enjoying after many kicks out of groups.

tyla > so people who disagree with your idea of the game are just idiots whose voice doesn't need to be heard ? lol, what an interesting point of view


have you ever tried to pug in doa before ursan ? forming balanced group of decent players was so long you needed a whole afternoon to clear one or two areas

killing ursan would not be good for pugs, that's precisely why anet left ursan the way it is


your example about b/p groups in fow is totally invalid because :
- b/p is an overpowered cookie cutter build, and you use it as an example in a thread about pve balance, seems a bit ironic to me
- as far as difficulty is concerned, fow nm is not an elite area, it can be easily cleared by a single player with 6 heroes without much experience
- in b/p groups, there are tanks, you thought pets and minions were there to deal damage ?


maybe you have your own opinion about what gw should be, but please don't call it the "original design"


bryant > when people are in favor of something they don't feel like creating posts on guru to show it, but when they want to complain, you can be sure that they'll try to be heard on every gw fan site

look at all the anwsers you got here, most of them are negative...


"does not impact others gameplay" > please, tell me what you don't understand

do you really think a skill making any loot in game worthless wouldn't impact any player's gameplay


if rebirth is such a terrible skill, why do people use it ? do you really play pve sometimes ?


in doa, any monster can hit a caster for 200+ damage, I'd really like to see how your monks could handle such pressure without tanks or heavy damage reduction (imbagons)

Lol, sure not, otherwise we wouldn't also have such incredible Wannabe-professions, like Dervishes, that have no single Dancing Skills, but everybody who knows what Dervishs are, will know, that this Profession should have Dance Skills, because Dervishs are well known for their religious dances !!.

Or the best terrible Wannabe-Profession ,the gaming scene has ever seen - the Paragon.

Anet is master in creating crap concepted Wannabes , thats for only sure!!


PS: i recommend you to read the Wiki Article about what the Word "mesmerize" stands for and from where the Mesmer has its origin from, before you post such stupid smart-aleck in the end cluesless stuff

It's not an excuse.
It's what I feel is a fairly realists look at the state of the game and it's creator.

Show me the money.
It would probably be a different thing if the game had a fee - but the veteran isn't bringing in much money after they buy all the chapters. The new sucker that doesn't have everything GW related - does. And I seriously don't see why a new player would buy a game that will end in a year if he'd need MORE then a year to catch up with the rest of the players.

I am not saying it is right.
I am saying that it is fun.

Constant HP degegn, being prevented to cast enchantments, being KD-ed every few secs, being unable to damage a foe unless you break his armour, 1k damage hits, foes that completely bypass the basic game rules, ... - you consider THAT a "sane way"?
Yes, the foes ARE stupid - but if the only way to make them challenging is to break all balance rules - then I'd suggest spending a few more weeks working on their behavior.

Like I stated before - I am first in line to give up everything overpowered if they fix the game completely.
If it's going to be a bandage (by just removing options or giving us a VERY minimal improvement) - I'd rather see them not waste their time on it since there is a big chance that the game might not be as fun then as it is now.

The reason "stop controlling how I play" is invalid is because the game, by definition, controls how you play.

The fact that I can't do absolutely anything I want in GW means that someone is controlling how I play the game. Why can't I kill monsters in one hit and make stacks of ectos by clicking empty spots in my inventory? STOP CONTROLLING HOW I PLAY THE GAME. It wouldn't affect you if I could instant-kill all monsters, right? Don't like it, don't use it! So why doesn't Anet add that ability? Why do they insist on controlling how I play the game?

By what metric, then, is a game designer supposed to decide how much to control how people play their game? The argument "stop controlling how I play the game" assumes that controlling how other people play the game is undesirable. Thus, under the same reasoning, all games have failed to some extent because they all control how you play the game. Funnily enough, it is exactly these systems of controls that define games - such systems are called "mechanics".

As an aside, one of the glaring problems with abandoning GW's original design philosophy and turning it into a stupid grind game for casual gamers is that it brings it into direct competition with other games of this genre. As others have stated, if I wanted to play a dumbed-down grind game, Diablo is generally a much more appealing option that is frankly better executed and far more suitable for mindless fun.

so.... whats imba about easy loot?

god, please stop it, you just don't get it >.>
How often do you want to repeat yourself about that now ? Is it just me, or is this now the like 3rd time i see you writing about the exact same stuff how you want to see, how GW should become a game, where players dictate others, how to play their instance ?

leave it to everyone personal, how they want to play GW. Everyone has payed for the game, so unless Anet doesn't change something on UB, its everyone's own decision, to play the game either with or without that PvE Only Skill and when you can't accept that stupid fact, that you have to search for people then that have the same opinion like you about ursan to create a PUG, then just leave GW

This Game is called still GUILD WARS, this game is based on the gameplay, that you play together with other people of your same guild.
Where is the god damn problem to search for a guild , which also dislikes to play with ursan and just god damn it - that will END YOUR PERSONAL PROBLEM !!! and just will leave all people which like UB alone with the massive QQ of the Whiner Faction >.<

This absolutely impacts no ones play style, people who dislike UB are mostly also all those people, which alsos dislike it to PUG and already have played through mostly everything with H/H and i don't doubt it, that many of those people used also things, like Sabway or imbagons whatever, but are just too scared to admit the truth here, cause they have to show their fake-e peen 24/7 in the protection of the anonymity of the internet. Your complete QQ is invalid too if you ask me XD Talking about something being invalid is also invalid >.> ROFL god. I absolutely can't see this word anymore. In general also people, which think they can say others, what is valid, and what not - its the same, like dictating others how to play the game.

So why the shit do all these people care about it, that when you want not to use UB, that you have to play then with your Guild Members mostly, to ensure that you will get a party for the games challenge ? absolutely not understandable.

This way people who don't like UB get only more encouraged to play together with their Guild Members, instead of random people, that you absolutely don't know.

Just finally learn to accept, that Anet will not change anything on Ursan Blessing. GW1 is finished for Anet. Look to the future, there will be the next great challenge and changes!! - its been called GUILD WARS 2 - a complete new Game, which will hopefully not start with all the concept catastrophes of Guild Wars 1, like GW1 was more or less over 3 years now just only a Trial&Error Catastrophe. With GW2 will start our real gaming experience I think, - being then the ultimate better GW.

Earth edit:Stop flaming please, thanks.

It's not my fault that they disagree to voice their opinion. I didn't say they were idiots by the way. And it's also not my fault I care about the game, and want it to remain good. Well, what's left of it.

If the designers of GW control how I play this game , this means that every QQ-er can also do that RITE? NO! The game designers have every right to dictate or change the game because they have actually made it , on the other hand you are just a player , you have no right to tell other people how to play the game unless they let you. If you don't like the games design now , leave the game and let people who enjoy it now enjoy GW. If A.net switched their game design to please casual players it was their choice , our choice is whether we are going to play this game under their rules or not play the game.

It's a game. It's not real life.

And uhm, their dances consist pretty much of turning circles. Guess what a dervish does when it attacks?


Thank you for the recommendation. I already have though. Most of their skills are a bit "Hypnosis" like. Arcane Conundrum, for example. You can say he hypnotised his target and told him to cast spells twice as slow. Making targets "sleep" would be imba, and how would you create a whole list of skills that revolve around sleeping somehow?

Game's fine as it is. Quit Q.Q'ing and stop giving Anet ideas. I like my imba PvE!

Because, as BlackSephir stated, people think "they suck".

This is very interesting, though, since it gives a fine example of pug mentality (but it's not directed to you, Jos, so I hope you don't take offense )

Something that I think would be a good idea to eliminate the logic of "tank and spank is good" is to provide an additional aggro range: The first one could be the one that's already in the game, the one that's the smaller circle in the compass. The next one would be the exact size of the compass. So whenever you aggro an enemy, his aggro range becomes the size of the compass.

The only problem is that there would still be a ton of alternatives to bypass even that, but hey it's just a toss-up idea. Expandith uponith itith.

Exactly: we were seeing very little complaints before all of these additions. In fact, the game was booming. So, why all the drastic changes?

Seeing as how no loot in the game impacts anyone's gameplay there shouldn't be any reason for it not to exist, right? Right??

For the same reason that people take Mending on their skillbars: They think it's good.

Here's one idea:Protective Spirit. But that in itself is yet another funny problem.

It's not looking at "what at is" but more "why it is". Why did ANet feel the need to make a move that will only appeal to a small portion of the playerbase, why ANet thought it best to ditch what made their game unique, why ANet thought it best to go the route of most (bad) MMO's by granting you victory through grinding.

If players just looked at "what it is" instead of "why", then most online games would be going no where.

All I need to show you is the box art. Check each and every one of them, not a single mention of "overpowered crap".

Guild Wars is going to make a huge, HUGE majority of its money based off of three words: free-to-play. In fact it was about to reach four million copies (source) 2 months after PvE skills were released (source 2).

If we want another example, we can go back to my loosely WoW vs. GW thread about "catering to the newbie". A huge portion of the WoW playerbase has still only seen like 1% of the endgame content yet WoW's popularity is still booming. It's just proof that the endgame isn't the biggest selling point, but providing fun on the surface is.

Moreover, if they want to give tools to help the "casual new comers" then the PvE skills wouldn't require a title. That right there completely invalidates any evidence of these additions helping the newbie.

Whatever makes it more fair for the computer. The fact that we were still conquering all of these "overpowered" monsters and areas before all of these additions proves that it's still not a fair fight.

We're "just a player"? Many online games rely solely on community feedback. Guild Wars is no different. It's just with the recent direction they seemed to have listened to a group of players that didn't seem to have GW's interests at heart - which makes it even more confusing about why ANet listened to them.

There was a change to help the casual players? When was this? I mean I heard about the NM DoA nerf, but what else?

While beign on Sleep Status, your character would be for example for a short time period not able to use any skills or to move.
Being hit while sleeping - the first hit would be ever automatically a critical hit, that will never miss, but that physical hit would also automatically end the Sleep Status.
Same would be for Elemental Damage, where the first damage would have a certain Damage Bonus, then Sleep does end automatically.

Sleep would be a negative status, which would never have a 100% chance for success, when using Skills that would deal this negative status. It would have maximum 75% chance for success. That would make these skills similar to those, which have a chance of 50% to fail, when your attribute is not high enough.
It would be a good new interruption attribute.
There would also exist then a Rune, for more protection, like the other protection runes for the other negative status ailments.

I think, when well thought out, Sleep can be really a nice good new negative status ailment for Mesmer Hexes and it would make that Class better concepted and let them look lesser like Wannabes.
****
But the game misses so much other negative status ailments beside Sleep, stuff like Confusion, Paralyse, Petrification, Frost, Silence(Mute), Apathy, Fear, just to name some, that are implementable

Burst Cancel said that A.net is changing PvE to suit the casuals , not me.
And I was referring to people who want to change the gameplay of others because of various unimportant reasons (Elite areas excluded). Unless it's a elite area , I don't care if someone finds a way to insta-vanquish everything in HM because elite areas are not done on HM for a title , they are done for the reward , which itself is a different issue because right now PvE doesn't reward skill and uniqueness , it rewards speed and close minded view towards new ideas.

Feedback is one thing , and changing the game to suit someone is different. I hope both the players and A.net will see the difference in that. Just because it happened before doesn't justify that it should happen now.

It's A.net's fault that the computer is a retard , it's not an excuse to buff him to hell and back. I hate when something like this happens , and more worse it happens in real life , I see people who get grades like presents just because it's "not fair" on them. This needs to stop , if A.net can't make challenging enemies without giving them stupid buffs , they shouldn't have made new enemies.

The early and midgame content in GW is low , thats why many people want the end content in GW.

They've kinda already changed the game to suit "Someone".

wth, you decide how good a profession is based on IT'S DANCES? Please, tell me what you are smoking, because I'll need it to continue reading your posts.

I've read it, before this post, it comes from the idea of a hypnotist who's last name was Mesmer. Please note, not all hypnotists have to put their patients to sleep, putting to sleep just simply makes the job easier, it still isn't mandatory. I'm not meaning to rip only on you, but your argument is just... bad, compared to others.

This is turning into a flame war. I still find it funny how Sha is regarded as two opposing concepts in 2 threads that deal with the same thing, a change to skills. Time to stop reading on this thread.

Either a poor sarcasm, tardness or living in denial.

Wait, wait. Wasn't GWEN supposed to be like that? I mean it was supposed to be good and all for the game, but it end up being one of those add-ons, where you MUST have them or half (at least) of the game closes before you?

As Tyla mentioned, all of these PvE skill additions have done just that: Targetted a someone, not an everyone. It doesn't help "newbies", it doesn't help discrimination, it helps little. It's only providing for people who don't care about what makes Guild Wars unique.

So it's ANet's "fault" that they didn't put in tens of thousands of hours to perfect an AI that would have to adapt/react to thousands of profession, build, and skill combinations with tens of thousands of options? Well I'll be damned.

This isn't "bad game design", it's just game design. Refer back to my Doom point. The only thing I would consider bad is the implementation of certain classes into this mode of gameplay.