PvE Balance - Part 2

No, nerf =/= buff. Balancing isn't one-sided. It can carry buffs too.

Nope. It was born as a competetive game. The PvE part of it just taught people the basics, and tactics in some areas. (e.g The Crystal Desert)

Yes, you could say that Guild Wars is more of a PvE game now, but that's because of the newer professions and the different content, such as Factions onwards.

I think you are missing the point.
Just because something was nerfed doesn't mean it's balanced. (Or at the same time - just because something was buffed doesn't mean it's balanced.)
SF showed us that superbly.

PvE needs more random buffs and less nerfing to the ground , this way a greater variety of effective builds will be made.
I agree with Tyla that PvP was in the first plan at the beginning of the game , now it's the opposite.

Well, if you want to please the majority - the "casuals" - then UB wouldn't require a title. Nor would PvE skills.

As it is, it caters to a minority of people who don't appreciate GW for what it is and want everything with little effort. I can understand it helping the "unwanted profession", but for each one that is helped another is shunned.

I agree with you yet would perhaps differ in regards to the definition of the GW majority being "casual" gamers especially concerning UB and PvE title-linked skills as you firstly need to own EotN and at least one other stand-alone campaign to gain access.

As such I would class, although I'm obviously assuming here, the majority of the GW player base as being average players in both experience and time played who own at least two out of the four GW products on offer (I actually struggle to recall meeting anyone in game recently who does'nt own all four) who can also justify attaining and grinding their way to attain the relevant rank and skill if they so choose.

In reality the average player has to have dedicated a fair whack of time to the game before high end levels, UB or certain PvE only skills become an option, especially in terms of being in a posistion to grind said titles, which imo elevates them above the level of being "casual"

I can't imagine the "casual" player really being concerned with the issue of PvE balance at all, at least in terms of the given "imba" examples.

"So choose" doesn't become too much of an option with PUGs. You may choose to only play up to rank 5 in Norn, but then you are also choosing to greatly limit your chance of finding a group these days. I also don't see much that's "justified".

See why many don't agree with this change?

Many who are in support of it claim that it's "for the newbies" when it doesn't help them in the least. UB doesn't concern itself with the casual majority. It's focused around an uncaring minority of players.

If ANet wanted more people to see the "endgame content" then there are a multitude of better ways to do so. It becomes harder and harder to see proper justification of UB. Especially so with GW:EN's now largely reduced price of around 10 bucks.

...Which is why it's seldom ever a good idea to take their considerations (which are next to none) at the foremost when it comes to balance and game design.

yeah...because taking a smiting monk, hammer warrior, or blood spec necro is always accepted in holy trinity groups? oh, lets not forget dervishes and mesmers! /fail argument

you mean on guru? ask the folks on ToA if they would support such a change to UB. oh wait, the h4rdc0rz pl4y4z are on guru, and of course, they know everything about everything. including how people feel about ursan.

and....your point being? it doesnt seem like the "uncaring" is the minority here. I beleive its the elitests who want to have their stacks of ectos, slew of tormented weaons, and stacks of armbraces who are trying to impose a certain way to PvE. If thats your attitude, please bring that crap to PvP where it belongs.

not sure if this is a plea for "gimme gimme gimme" moar content please, or if your trying to impose your style of playing.

because your ideas are much better, amirite?

The biggest difference between the Holy Trinity and UB is that the Trinity is mega slow, mega risky, and the "easiness" is balanced by those two. With UB it's much less so.

And as much as it "helps" (keyword since Warrior-only Ursanways are on the rise) the unwanted classes, it's still turning away those who don't own GW:EN or don't have a high-enough rank. Helps some, kills some.

The difference is why they would or would not support a change.

If there was a mega exploit that gave you a ton of K in say a random outpost, do you think the horde of people there would be in agreement of fixing it?

My point being that you don't make huge and drastic game changes based off of people who have their own concerns over that of the game itself, or who don't know a whole lot about the game. If you want to call that "elitist" then sure, but I don't think it's too smart make in-depth changes based on people who have been playing their game for only a couple hours.

Where did you get that? I'm saying that there are many better methods of providing people to see the current endgame content and allow more people into groups. I really don't know how to simplify that.

Since many of the ideas circulating around don't include breaking the general game design, I'd say yes.

Sorry, won't happen.

What can I say? PvE went down the shitter when PvE-only skills were released, and with the additions since then (more pve skills, titles with a bigger benefit, pvp/pve split) do you honestly still hope that anet will do a complete 180 and balance PvE? lol.

UB's popularity alone really contradicts this statement for me and tbh I only really see a small minority of people complaining about it, especially in-game hence I would assume that for every player who complains about UB theres a few hundred, if not thousand, currently in-game having fun with it.

I would however re-state I'm not a fan of Ursanway at all but my solution is to simply not use it although I do have the luxury of having enough in-game contacts to justify the choice.

Depends on what you're seeing and where you're seeing it. Outside of the elite outposts I'm rarely seeing it used. The majority doesn't own GW:EN and even less know that UB exists within it. Things would be different if GW were over 10 years old, but that's not the case.

Ignoring problems doesn't solve them.

GuildWars is a thinking game. You have a deck of cards and must pick any eight cards for a given situation. Then you must play those cards at the right time and in the right way. Ursan Blessing reduces this to a single "Win" button for all situations.

That has no place in a game like GuildWars. There is no "Win" button in Football or Basketball, or any other popular game you can name...for obvious reasons. When most people try to defend UB, all I hear is "I'm bad at this game and it's the only way I can win."

To that, I can only say: "Get better or quit". That's not the answer you want to hear, but it's the correct answer. It's the same answer you'd get on a Basketball or Football team. I'm sorry that you are in that situation, I know it sucks. EVERYONE who plays GuildWars has been in that situation. When we ALL started, we ALL sucked. We all got better at our own pace, some of us never did.

But to add a skill that eliminates the learning curve entirely does everyone a disservice. New (and bad) players have no incentive to get better. Veteran players feel cheated because the overall level of the playerbase declines. Everyone loses in the long term. The only winners are people who lack skill and are using UB to farm endgame areas.

It seems dishonest to call veteran players "Elitists" when the primary purpose of UB is to quickly obtain endgame rewards. Despite what many inexperienced players believe, there is no conspiracy to prevent them (or anyone) from obtaining prestige equipment. However, it is somewhat frustrating to see people with prestige equipment who clearly don't know how to play GuildWars, regardless of how they got it.

The only source of understandable frustration I can appreciate more than most is being "denied content" because you're not skilled enough and/or lack the resources to see the elite content. However, there were numerous ways they could resolve this without walloping the game.

Not sure I'd agree with this but I'm only basing my opinion on personal experience, in that I struggle to recall meeting a player that doesn't own all four, as opposed to any factual evidence as only Anet would have those figures.

Agreed but I'm not ignoring the issue, after all I'm here enjoyably discussing it and more than agree it would be advantageous to have changes made to UB as I've previously stated.

Choosing not to use UB is merely a personal decision I alone have made to make it a non-issue in my game especially when considering I don't really care how others choose to play and neither do the majority of people I team with hence I admit it may not effect me as much as it may others.Tbh I see that allowance of choice as largely solving the issue for me personally, I never said it fixes or solves UB's effect on the meta as in fact UB is clearly more popular than my decision to simply not use such an over-powered skill that takes the fun and challenge out of my game.

this ended when factions was released. I took a year long break because of it, and did not buy NF or Factions until the end of 06. Prophecies was great: you started up on a low level area, and gradually encountered difficult challenges. not to mention it took weeks (for those who actually played the missions and did the quests...no running and playing causually) to get to level 20. when factions came out, they might as well made the character creation screen start on level 20. Thinking about builds was already dead.

this made me lol. i beat all campaigns on 10 characters without ursan. my warrior (primary) has 25 maxed titles now, 21 of which were there prior to GWEN. I fail to see how I am bad at the game. Oh wait, I hear that elitist attitude again.

I did get better. I grew from my W/E who used Meteor Shower and Fire Storm each time it recharged. I have been playing since the beginning, and obviously, I have had much time to learn and improve my game.

The thing about UB that people dont understand is that its finally getting people to group and clear things fast. I hate pugs. I never pugged since the beginning. I learned all that I know from my own skills and my own reading of skills. Hell, I didn't even find Fansites until about 7 months after release and that was only because a friend recommended the site. The thing that makes UB so appealing, is that us with time restrictions (aka, those with lives) can finally do end game content without having to leave the group high and dry.

And what makes it your call on "get better or quit." Why? I have never grouped with you, met you, or even seen you in the same disctrict. Why should I have to change my fun (however that may be), because some brats cant think to making their own groups?

Does everyone a disservice? Because people are having fun but those who are whining about it on forums? Also, why is there a "need" to get better? Self satisfaction? It's a freaking game. You can swing your epeen next to those who get high scores on DDR or Guitar Hero: It doesn't impress me. And yes, those who use UB to farm endgame areas do win. How DARE they have fun in a game!

Prestige equipment in GuildWars? lol, thats great too. all because of ub? So, my characters prior to gwen having atleast 2 sets (8 chars by the way) of 15k "repulse you" because I use UB for the speed? Once again, go outside please, and remember, this isn't real life. Its a game. You know, like have fun. I dont see anyone whining about Monopoly when you get a Hotel in the first two rounds of the board.

generalizations of the UB community are bad. I love how people think that ALL UB players have no skill and just want to spam 1-2-3-4. The holy trinity just adds in 5-6-7-8. Pathetic if you ask me.

Problem with that idea is that there are some Necro builds that use few if any saccing or exploiting skills, and with that they might as well all be E/N or Me/N.

Personally, if it was my job to fix SR, I'd give it a cap (dependant on attribute level) on the amount of energy that can be gained in a given time period rather than on the number of triggers, and make it so SR never overfills you (so if a critter dies and you only need 3 energy to fill your bar, that's all it takes out of the SR budget).

This has the following effects:
1) Removes most frustration at triggers being 'wasted'.
2) Allows SR in general to be balanced more finely (increase or decrease the cap)
3) Allows the return from spirits, minions, and other created creatures to be lower without generating the feeling of wasting triggers.

Of these, the third is possibly the most important - would minion masters really be an infinite energy engine for the necros on their team if minions only provided 1/4 of the benefit of actually killing an enemy? Or 1/8th?

I don’t think ANET should ever take that stand because it would mean fewer players and fewer players buying expansions. Like it or not, if you’re a veteran or elitist, we all need the casual, noobs, and newbies to keep buying the game or the server closes. After reading much of the comments being made here I am starting to feel that many of you want ANET to close its doors.

Does anyone here actually believe the people abusing these skills such as Shadow Form or Ursan Blessing are bad players? They are abusing the skill because it gets them to end reward faster or allows them to farm the most profitable areas. If they nerf UB then the only thing that will change is a new build will develop that these supposable bad players will learn to use and I don’t see UW groups saying, “GLF UW Clear – any class.”

I don’t care what people believe is elite it stopped being elite a long time ago when Gold Sellers and ebay became a way to get gold and ecto. The only thing prestigious about armor now is if it has “Prestigious” in the name. If you are buying FoW armor (or any armor or weapon) to feel better or elite to other player you are playing the wrong game. I don’t care if someone is running around with FoW armor, doesn’t affect my game in anyway, of course I got my FoW Ranger armor because I liked the way it looked.

I really hate the argument that "since so many people are using overpowered crap (like UB) it shouldn't touched". No...it SHOULD be touched and those people should learn to use something else, just as they did BEFORE the overpowered crap (like UB) ever existed.

It and everything like it has been destructive to the game. I don't care how many people are having "fun" with it (or farming elite areas with it)...if it is destructive to the game than it needs to be changed.

I also hate the argument that "people are just having fun so if you take that away they won't buy your games". Bull. Most people bought the game before UB ever existed. They bought the game with loftier goals (of balance and skill>time) plastered all over the advertisements and boxes. They WILL buy the games in the future if you take the garbage away. Actually...MORE people will probably buy the game because it is more respectable, and not full of overpowered no skill crap which equates to cheat codes in a single player game. I used to recommend Guild Wars to my everybody constantly...now I wouldn't dream of it because the balance in both PvE and PvP has went down the craphole.

People wanting to keep overpowered garbage are basically walrus whiners who don't want their bucket taken away even though they have no idea WHY it SHOULD be taken away. Guild Wars was NEVER meant to be this way.

Whats the point of these threads? Pve is and has been dead for years now. There is title grinding yes, but for those of us who played pve through prophesies this game is not gw. Either go farm cupcakes or whatever w/ your ursans or stfu and stop giving anet money. Electrified Cheese is yummy!

I'd have to agree with this from my own personal experience. I used to recommend GW, but since EOTN came out I tend to keep quiet when an MMO discussion starts up. Having to admit that it's now a grindfest just like any other and that it's loaded with brokenness to boot would be just too embarrassing.

Oh, so no new builds were invented after the release of Factions. What you really mean is you gave up on builds after Factions. That is your problem. New builds are still being created to this day.

You're bad at the game because you can't exceed UB's performance with a normal build. It is true, however, that you fail to see this.

Keep going, there's apparently room for improvement. If you're truly interested in improving your game, stop using UB.

That's called farming. There are only two reasons to speed clear an area: 1) farming, 2) record setting. You are clearly referencing farming, you admit it here:
You're trying to argue that you have a right to godmode. You do not.

Well, steroids make people play sports "better", but it's not generally allowed is it? You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. If you can pull it off, more power to you, but you aren't entitled to do this.


Apparently it does. Next time you post, try not to defeat yourself as you do it.

You're just hearing yourself.

If that is the only option, they should close the servers immediately. If they are FORCED to dumb the game down so a monkey can play just keep the servers open, then they have clearly passed the point of remaining viable in any situation.

Inexperienced players, in any game, must "get better or quit". It's just the way it is, unless they enjoy failing, in that case keep playing.

Exactly. They are both clearly overpowered and need a nerf. There is no right to farm endgame areas in godmode.

Of course a new build will eventually develop. Balance is a process, not a goal. New builds will be evaluated as they emerge. They may force future rebalances. This is the way things progress in GW. The only real issue here is why has it taken so long to nerf UB.

I just had to quote this!

I guess I'm one of those "elitists" who is trying to impose a certain way to PvE. Oh, wait. Guess what? I don't farm nor have I ever obtained more than 100 ectos within the 2 years I have been playing this game.

People are not trying to "impose" a certain way to PvE. People in general already managed to do almost everything before GW:EN, and that abomination of a skill. Yes, I may seem like one of those people who want '05 GW back. I merely know godmode shouldn't exist in any game at all. If casual players were to complete missions such as Urgoz etc. they wouldn't be labeled "elite mission". They weren't designed for the casual player, and they were designed to be difficult and take time to complete.

Soul Reaping IS god mode for a caster.
Why the selective balance?

Because you still need to kill things in order to crapfest high-energy skills xd Ursan powers itself. So does SF Sin.

Which translates to:
IF YOUR PARTY doesn't fail in PvE (fail to kill that is) - you (the necro NOT the whole party!) deserve UNLIMITED energy.

Ursan is a puppy compared to the beast that is SR.

Cobblers.

Soul Reaping is a core Necro attribute, never has SR alone enabled anyone to steamroll the game in every area like Ursan does now.

I don't see the difference.
SR enables people that should fail at this game to succeed.
Godmode.

Stop trolling.

Since SR only triggers on a death, you would need to kill monsters at an unlimited rate to get SR to generate unlimited energy, now wouldn't you? If you're doing killing at that rate already, SR isn't really making that much of an impact, now is it? Unless you are referencing manufactured deaths via minions (in which case I would agree), you're being metaphorical for dramatic license.

It would seem that a multitude of other factors MUST be in play in order to get SR to feed back energy like this. Notwithstanding the fact that SR, as you know, has a timer on it.

You have this strange fascination with the fact that SR generates energy when a monster dies. You seem to ignore the various other primary attributes that function as unbound energy management.

Expertise - Free energy because you used a skill, bound only by how fast you can push a button.
Divine Favor - Ditto.
Leadership - Ditto.
Critical Strikes - Ditto.

These are all energy management attributes. Somehow in your mind, doing the work of killing a monster is easier than using a single skill, or autoattacking. Just stop with the mystical 'unlimited' stuff. They're ALL unlimited in terms of both rate and amount.

It's especially ironic that SR is the only one of these with a limiting mechanism in place, the timer.

If that was the case then necros would have ran riot in every elite area all over the game, this is not the case.
Comparing SR to UB especially after the retarded timer applied to SR, is ridiculous.
SR is an attribute that came with the necro class, UB is an overpowered piece of shit that requires no thought, just mashing of the keyboard.

Lol, your claiming that SR enables people who fail at this game to suceed just indicates that you are trolling.
You should apply that logic to UB where it belongs.

Sabway says hi.

Also, the fact that no-one is abusing the hell out of SR is more a testament to how bad PvE players are and not how 'bad' SR is.

The problem with Sabway is the 'sharing' of SR triggers combined with the manufacturing of deaths via minions, not the energy returned. I'll agree that this mechanism enables bad players to succeed. But we've already covered this fact and suggested closing both mechanisms.

If you're STILL generating unlimited energy, even with both of those shut down, then you're doing it with outside help.

Show me a necro solo build that fuels itself off of SR. Surely such an almighty energy engine is being used to solo the entire game. What? It isn't? How can that be?

I'm guessing that you've left out the part of the equation regarding how much energy needed to be spent initially to get the death in the first place...which is what Upier did by shifting all the killing to the party....except in that case, the party is ALREADY killing at that rate and SR isn't having much of an impact either is it?

SR never taught a caster class how to manage their energy.
A caster class should be limited by it's energy.
A necro isn't (or better yet - it isn't comparatively to other classes.)
If you fail to see this - you are bad at this game.
Thus:
(Ohh and btw - SR was trashed because it was possible to create PvE-like conditions in PvP. So if PvE-like conditions are overpowered in PvP - then they are overpowered in PvE also.)

I am not saying that something like Ursan couldn't be considered godmode also. What I am saying is that if something warrants a nerf just because it is godmode - then SR NEEDS to get hit also.


Anyone coming here and saying that SR isn't godmode but Ursan is - is bad at this game.
L2P.

Last I heard GW was a team game.

Soul Reaping IS the energy management for Necros. Mesmers and Elementalists don't get e-management from their primary attribute...hence the need to e-manage via skills. You're point is invalid on these classes because of this.

Monks do get e-management from their primary, but it still needs to be augmented because they are covering the entire teams mistakes. They have a big job. Special case, your point is invalid.

Paragons (do you count them as casters?) get boo-koo energy from Leadership. You never mention them....
They are. If they weren't all the solo builds would be necros. Outside of minions, if you're getting unlimited energy, you're already killing at an absurd rate.
You definately fail to see that each class is unique, otherwise you wouldn't be essentially comparing SR and Fast Cast as e-management abilities.

You accidentally got something right on this point...
...but then you blow it all here. You just refuse to acknowledge that PvE balance and PvP balance are entirely different beasts. To you 'balance is balance'. And it's just not true, there are different balancing goals between PvP and PvE. Something that's overpowered in PvP can be lackluster in PvE, and vice versa.

This is a PvE thread, so it focuses on PvE balance.

SR isn't godmode. Permasin is godmode. you can't be killed. UB is godmode, you almost can't be killed.

Somethings about SR need to be changed, no argument, it's strong. But it doesn't grant invulnerability, and the lack of uber solo necro builds back that up.

Strangely, my Sabway works because I am able to take down 3 foes in 15 secs - and not because my non-mm necros would need the minions to fill up their energy bars.


Yeah, you didn't get the point here. (Which was also evident by you bringing up comparable primaries (Expertise excluded of course!).
The point kinda is that unless the assassin is achieving critical strikes - he's kinda not getting "unlimited" energy.
Or is the paragon isn't shouting - he also kinda isn't getting unlimited energy.
The necro just needs to stand "next" to a dying foe.
Period.
A caster sin won't be gaining unlimited energy though CS.
Neither will a "quiet" para.

The necro on the other hand - can do pretty much whatever he wants.
Something just needs to die.
And in PvE - if "something" isn't dying - then you are probably still in an outpost.

Edit:
Does that mean then when you are playing a necro you could easily dump all the SR points into Inspiration and still achieve the same efficiency as before?
Or ... take GoLE.
Or better yet - dump the points into blood and take OoB.

Because surely that is what you are suggesting, right?
SR isn't much stronger then those options?
Right?

And this is where your argument fails.

Ohh and this is funny:
Thanks for the laugh.
(In case you don't get it - you can't exactly balance a game if you don't even know the state of the game or if the state of the game is so complex that it pretty much prevents balance. (Like I've previously stated - compare something as simple as a knock-down in PvP and in PvE to get the picture.))

Hold up.

Doesn't Sabway fail in a large number of areas?

/confused.

If you are killing at that rate, you can easily replace the N/Rt healers with Monks and never miss a beat. Soul Reaping isn't the key factor...your killing quickly is.

Sigh. Yes, SR is passive. The necro can stand around doing nothing and get infinite energy....but if he's not doing anything, then SR isn't affecting the killing is it? Let alone unbalancing the entire game.

Your point seems to be that in situations where the teams is mowing monsters down like crazy, necros get crazy energy. BUT YOUR TEAM IS ALREADY KILLING AT THAT RATE. Soul Reaping isn't making a difference in the first place. Even if he doesn't cast a single spell, you're already killing at that rate. If he does cast...what? You'll kill even faster?

Even if he's running a heals bar, you could just as easily replace him with a monk at that point. You obviously aren't being challenged (because you're killing the shit out of the monsters, they can't be hurting you much)

You're contriving a situation where you ALREADY have an extreme advantage and then trying to pin the advantage on SR. That doesn't float.

What YOU are suggesting is that the inherent ability of a Primary attribute should be comparable to the skills within a non-primary attribute. Right? You're trying to compare the strength of SR as an e-management tool to the skills within the Inspiration line (or any other e-management line)

I'm saying that's Apples-to-Oranges.

Comparing the special, inherent ability of Necros to the skills within attributes accessible to everyone is Apples-to-Oranges, and you know it. Yes, SR is stronger than Inspiration...by design.

And all of this utterly and completely neglects the fact that SR was intended to be the energy engine for MMs....whereas inspiration was intended to fuel...what? Nothing in particular, it's just a general e-management line.

And this is where your argument fails.

SR is easy mode for GW, just as UB and SY! paras. The timer to SR achieved nothing , SR was , is and most likely will be the most efficient e-management tool in pve. The fact that it's a primary attribute doesn't excuse it from the nerfbat , it needs to be hit just like UB and the godmode paras and dragonslash SY! warriors. If one easy mode goes down , all need to go.

And elite areas are farmed , that's the only reason why people enter them.

IIRC, this used to be insightful thread. What happened?

The AI sucks. But SR is SO strong that it is able to negate that.
That's why it's godmode. You don't NEED to get better to succeed!
Isn't that the same reason why YOU feel that Ursan should be trashed?

(Let's be honest - I actually could exchange the necros. Simply because the game is simple enough for the player himself to be able to compensate for the moronic AI if the player IS good enough. BUT that's exactly the same position that a lot of people that would like Ursan to be nerfed are are in - despite being better options then Ursan - that doesn't change that something still is insane. Selective balance IS bad!)

Does that mean that the Divine favour BONUS should outheal resto skills?
Or the fact that Ursan is a PvE-ONLY ELITE skill means that it should be insane ... by design.
So it IS fine.
Right?

Look at [oob].
It's an ELITE BLOOD skill.
And yet it's outclassed by a few points in SR!
And you somehow feel that that IS balanced?

SR is worse then Ursan.
It's probably somewhere in the same category as Ursan initially but the simple fact that heroes CAN use it - pushes it just into a whole new category.

As always.
Me.


But seriously - selective balance is bad.
And that is what the thread turned into. You either do it right - or the whole suggestion loses it's point.